https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_oWhs35HjRcOLjRDSoollNQ
Le 11/11/2025 |a 14:54, Arne Vajh|+j a |-crit-a:
https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_oWhs35HjRcOLjRDSoollNQSimple question from a total ignorant:
I understood VMS/XDE needs WSL. And you can use WSL on windows to run
some Linux, for example Ubuntu. Ok.
I'm not sure, but it seems not possible to instal some WSL on some LInux (absurd or impossible?).
So am I right if I say that VMS/XDE cannot be used without some Windows?
G|-rard Calliet
Le 11/11/2025 |a 14:54, Arne Vajh|+j a |-crit-a:
https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_oWhs35HjRcOLjRDSoollNQSimple question from a total ignorant:
I understood VMS/XDE needs WSL. And you can use WSL on windows to run
some Linux, for example Ubuntu. Ok.
I'm not sure, but it seems not possible to instal some WSL on some LInux (absurd or impossible?).
So am I right if I say that VMS/XDE cannot be used without some Windows?
I understood VMS/XDE needs WSL.
Le 11/11/2025 |a 14:54, Arne Vajh|+j a |-crit-a:Thanks. Ok for me using this "thing" on Linux on hardware.
https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_oWhs35HjRcOLjRDSoollNQSimple question from a total ignorant:
I understood VMS/XDE needs WSL. And you can use WSL on windows to run
some Linux, for example Ubuntu. Ok.
I'm not sure, but it seems not possible to instal some WSL on some LInux (absurd or impossible?).
So am I right if I say that VMS/XDE cannot be used without some Windows?
G|-rard Calliet
Le 25/11/2025 |a 10:03, gcalliet a |-crit-a:
Le 11/11/2025 |a 14:54, Arne Vajh|+j a |-crit-a:Thanks. Ok for me using this "thing" on Linux on hardware.
https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_oWhs35HjRcOLjRDSoollNQSimple question from a total ignorant:
I understood VMS/XDE needs WSL. And you can use WSL on windows to run
some Linux, for example Ubuntu. Ok.
I'm not sure, but it seems not possible to instal some WSL on some
LInux (absurd or impossible?).
So am I right if I say that VMS/XDE cannot be used without some Windows?
G|-rard Calliet
Another question. How VMS/XDE is implemented? It seems being a brilliant effort, and being very interesting to understand. Will they publish
about that?
The next question is a consequence. What level of opening, documenting, offering access for that? It's somehow strange offering a proprietary
tool on Linux: cultural conflict?
G|-rard Calliet
The next question is a consequence. What level of opening, documenting, offering access for that? It's somehow strange offering a proprietary
tool on Linux: cultural conflict?
It's somehow strange offering a proprietary tool on Linux: cultural
conflict?
Am 26.11.2025 um 09:25 schrieb gcalliet:
Another question. How VMS/XDE is implemented? It seems being a
brilliant effort, and being very interesting to understand. Will they
publish about that?
maybe have a look at the Introduction to VMS/XDE Webinar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBJa_zOOkSo
It may answer some of your questions.
On 11/26/2025 3:25 AM, gcalliet wrote:
It's somehow strange offering a proprietary tool on Linux:Not really. Oracle, SPSS, Minitab, MATLAB. And I am sure there are
cultural conflict?
a pile more of proprietary programs that run on Linux.
The next question is a consequence. What level of opening, documenting, offering access for that? It's somehow strange offering a proprietary
tool on Linux: cultural conflict?
On 2025-11-26, gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
The next question is a consequence. What level of opening, documenting,
offering access for that? It's somehow strange offering a proprietary
tool on Linux: cultural conflict?
Hello Gerard,
Since you are clearly new with Linux, there is one "cultural conflict"
I should make you aware of, to avoid you wasting time and frustration
in case you come across the same issues.
Linux has, until now, used the X11 windowing system in the same way as
other Unix systems and VMS has done.
A new windowing system, called Wayland, is being introduced to Linux
and unfortunately the people doing this appear to have designed this
in isolation without listening to the creators of the major applications running on Linux and are saying that their new way of doing things in
Wayland is by design.
This is causing some major problems. The most high-profile one I am
aware of is KiCad at https://www.kicad.org/ and which is a major open
source PCB design package.
The KiCad developers have documented their problems with Wayland here:
https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/
Use it as a checklist in case you run into the same kinds of problems
while using Linux. If the problems you encounter are on that list,
then you know it is not you. :-)
Simon.
On 11/26/2025 3:48 AM, Volker Halle wrote:
Am 26.11.2025 um 09:25 schrieb gcalliet:
Another question. How VMS/XDE is implemented? It seems being a
brilliant effort, and being very interesting to understand. Will they
publish about that?
maybe have a look at the Introduction to VMS/XDE Webinar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBJa_zOOkSo
It may answer some of your questions.
Especially around 8-10 minutes in.
I also asked some pretty specific questions at the VSI forum
about implementation and got answers.
In article <10g7m7j$nkcb$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajh|+j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 11/26/2025 3:48 AM, Volker Halle wrote:
Am 26.11.2025 um 09:25 schrieb gcalliet:
Another question. How VMS/XDE is implemented? It seems being a
brilliant effort, and being very interesting to understand. Will they
publish about that?
maybe have a look at the Introduction to VMS/XDE Webinar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBJa_zOOkSo
It may answer some of your questions.
Especially around 8-10 minutes in.
I also asked some pretty specific questions at the VSI forum
about implementation and got answers.
Neither that video nor the VSI forum posts gave a lot of detail
about the actual implementation. I suspect they did something
closer to gVisor/Dune than just having a loadable kernel module
that builds in a bunch of VMS code, for instance.
But we have insufficient detail to know.
On 12/2/25 9:48 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
In article <10g7m7j$nkcb$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajh|+j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 11/26/2025 3:48 AM, Volker Halle wrote:
Am 26.11.2025 um 09:25 schrieb gcalliet:
Another question. How VMS/XDE is implemented? It seems being a
brilliant effort, and being very interesting to understand. Will they >>>>> publish about that?
maybe have a look at the Introduction to VMS/XDE Webinar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBJa_zOOkSo
It may answer some of your questions.
Especially around 8-10 minutes in.
I also asked some pretty specific questions at the VSI forum
about implementation and got answers.
Neither that video nor the VSI forum posts gave a lot of detail
about the actual implementation. I suspect they did something
closer to gVisor/Dune than just having a loadable kernel module
that builds in a bunch of VMS code, for instance.
But we have insufficient detail to know.
Near the end there was a mention of a code name for the technology upon
which XDE is based (but I don't remember what that was). It would indeed
be nice to know more about the emulation, including how it works, how it
came about, and what other plans there are for it, if any. It seems
unlikely to me that it was made expressly for use in a development >environment that doesn't really provide any new capabilities.
Much was made of the fact that with VMS/XDE you can use Linux tools to >operate on your code files directly and then not have to move them to a
VMS system to compile them. But the same would be true if the files
lived on decently-working NFS or SMB shares on a real VMS system. And
moving the files really isn't that hard, and would be even easier if an
rsync implementation were available.
Much was also made of the fact that you can, for example, run a VSCode
task that starts up a new instance of VMS/XDE and runs a build procedure >within it using native VMS tools. But you can do the same thing with an
SSH command to a real VMS system.
There was a list of DECset tools that were state-of-the art decades ago >alongside modern Linux equivalents in order to make the point that
people have different expectations now for how to do development. But
other than code editing and version control integrated into the IDE,
VMS/XDE doesn't meet any of those expectations.
There are no Linux tools that can analyze and profile your object code
or images, and you can't use Linux make utilities to build your code,
nor Linux test frameworks to test your code unless those tools have been >ported to VMS. Or unless each command generated by the make utility or
test framework starts a new instance of VMS/XDE and runs a native VMS >command, which would be extraordinarily cumbersome. You can't run the
VMS debugger unless your Linux IDE has an extension to run a remote
debugger (and a suitable debugging agent exists on VMS). Again, no >advantages here for VMS/XDE over a real VMS system.
The emulation of the system services and RTLs sounds like some pretty
neat engineering, but surely they didn't do all that for an IDE that
doesn't really offer anything new?
In article <10gobsg$2uher$1@dont-email.me>,
Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
Near the end there was a mention of a code name for the technology upon
which XDE is based (but I don't remember what that was).
I've been rewatching the video trying to catch it; so far I
haven't.
how it
came about, and what other plans there are for it, if any.-a It seems unlikely to me that it was made expressly for use in a development environment that doesn't really provide any new capabilities.
Much was made of the fact that with VMS/XDE you can use Linux tools to operate on your code files directly and then not have to move them to a
VMS system to compile them.-a But the same would be true if the files
lived on decently-working NFS or SMB shares on a real VMS system. And
moving the files really isn't that hard, and would be even easier if an
rsync implementation were available.
Much was also made of the fact that you can, for example, run a VSCode
task that starts up a new instance of VMS/XDE and runs a build procedure within it using native VMS tools. But you can do the same thing with an
SSH command to a real VMS system.
There was a list of DECset tools that were state-of-the art decades ago alongside modern Linux equivalents in order to make the point that
people have different expectations now for how to do development.-a But
other than code editing and version control integrated into the IDE,
VMS/XDE doesn't meet any of those expectations.
There are no Linux tools that can analyze and profile your object code
or images, and you can't use Linux make utilities to build your code,
nor Linux test frameworks to test your code unless those tools have been ported to VMS. Or unless each command generated by the make utility or
test framework starts a new instance of VMS/XDE and runs a native VMS command, which would be extraordinarily cumbersome. You can't run the
VMS debugger unless your Linux IDE has an extension to run a remote
debugger (and a suitable debugging agent exists on VMS).-a Again, no advantages here for VMS/XDE over a real VMS system.
The emulation of the system services and RTLs sounds like some pretty
neat engineering, but surely they didn't do all that for an IDE that
doesn't really offer anything new?
So now they make a second attempt with XDE. From a purposeThere are some use cases with WSL where people might build with Windows
perspective and a high level technical perspective it is
very similar to WSL (WSL allows you do Linux dev on Windows,
XDE allows you to do VMS dev on Linux, the implementation
is somewhat similar to WSL 1). WSL is a very popular option
for developers. Trying to do something similar seems justified.
On 12/3/25 7:29 PM, Arne Vajh|+j wrote:
<comments about VMS-IDE VSCode extension snipped>
So now they make a second attempt with XDE. From a purpose
perspective and a high level technical perspective it is
very similar to WSL (WSL allows you do Linux dev on Windows,
XDE allows you to do VMS dev on Linux, the implementation
is somewhat similar to WSL 1). WSL is a very popular option
for developers. Trying to do something similar seems justified.
There are some use cases with WSL where people might build with Windows
tools to test and deploy on Linux (notably .NET) but I don't think WSL
was ever primarily about covering for the absence of modern development
tools on Linux.
And in any case why build a WSL1 equivalent when you
already have a WSL2 equivalent?
On 12/4/2025 9:07 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
On 12/3/25 7:29 PM, Arne Vajh|+j wrote:
<comments about VMS-IDE VSCode extension snipped>
So now they make a second attempt with XDE. From a purpose
perspective and a high level technical perspective it is
very similar to WSL (WSL allows you do Linux dev on Windows,
XDE allows you to do VMS dev on Linux, the implementation
is somewhat similar to WSL 1). WSL is a very popular option
for developers. Trying to do something similar seems justified.
There are some use cases with WSL where people might build with Windows
tools to test and deploy on Linux (notably .NET) but I don't think WSL
was ever primarily about covering for the absence of modern development
tools on Linux.
Not absence of modern dev tools.
But maybe absence of the one tool some parts of MS care about: VS.
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a And in any case why build a WSL1 equivalent when you
already have a WSL2 equivalent?
I don't think they have the WSL2 equivalent. They could have
done it WSL2 style and made XDE a VM and done some file system
integration (NFS based, SMB based or something else) and cross
command line integration instead of what they did.
But ...
On 12/3/25 11:04 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
In article <10gobsg$2uher$1@dont-email.me>,
Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
Near the end there was a mention of a code name for the technology upon
which XDE is based (but I don't remember what that was).
I've been rewatching the video trying to catch it; so far I
haven't.
It was in the Q and A if that helps.
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