No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.
On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 20:25:49 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Instead, the current router has a very simple admin page with password
(printed in a label underneath the router) and help pages, and an
advanced setup that asks "are you sure"? but has the same password and
no help pages. And a complex setup.
Wifi (ssid/pass), typeof security, and channel
WiFi+
WiFi for guests (ssid/pass, type of security
Ports to open to what local machine
LAN map
LAN config (gateway, mask, dhcp on/off, range, dns1 dns2)
Config is multiple (with NAT) or single post (transparent router)
IPv6 (dhcp mode, ports, filter)
router password
Firmware updates
Other (write/read profile, factory reset, wifi factory reset, firewall
disable, universal UPnP enable/disable.
Help
Advnced.
I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same background.
Chris wrote:
No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.
https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator
Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them, knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).
On 2025-12-05 02:05, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave >>> you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.
https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator
Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them,
knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).
From a label where the MAC address is typically written in tiny type...
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.
Chris wrote:
No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.
https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator
Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them, knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).
Until they retire that router, I can find where they installed that router, and it will be most likely where they live.
darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator (GitHub)
Python tool to look up AP
locations from ApplerCOs WPS.
Queries by BSSID and returns
coordinates.
Shows how App'erCOs API can return results without SSID values.
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating?
If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave >>> you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.
https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator
Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them,
knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).
Until they retire that router, I can find where they installed that router, >> and it will be most likely where they live.
So you can only track me if you physically sell me the router in a shop and write down the MAC address?
On 2025-12-05, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating?>> If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
The last person who bitched about this signature is a resident troll, so
it stays.
From a label where the MAC address is typically written in tiny type...
I just ran this script with the BSSID of my WiFi access point, and it couldn't locate it:
Searching for location of bssid: [redacted]
The bssid was not found.
It still just boils down to knowing my home address. Which is already
public knowledge.
Chris wrote:
It still just boils down to knowing my home address. Which is already
public knowledge.
Hi Chris,
You're smarter than that.
I get it that all the Apple trolls are desperate to minimize the privacy implications of what has widely been reported as a privacy nightmare.
You Apple trolls always defend everything Apple to the death.
No matter what.
So it's natural that you and Jolly Roger claim that Apple's invasion of our privacy is, in the words of Jolly Roger "a nothing burger".
But you need to realize privacy professionals out there disagree with you.
*Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>
For you Apple trolls to claim the security professionals are wrong is your own way of defending everything Apple does, to the death, no matter what.
*Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
<https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>
Luckily, of all the Apple trolls, you're one who sometimes can exercise critical thinking processes, so allow me to give you a local example.
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a single SSID or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Windows:
1. Press Win+R
2. Type: cmd
3. In the command prompt, type:
netsh wlan show networks mode=bssid
4. Look for your SSID name
5. Under it, find "BSSID" lines
6. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
MacOS:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: airport -s
3. Find your SSID in the list
4. Copy the BSSID shown (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
If you enable "include surrounding access points",
it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.
On 2025-12-05 06:06, Char Jackson wrote:<snip>
I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same
background.
Because that is the simple setup mode. You don't see there the virtual >networks (VLANS) it has, for instance.
On 2025/12/5 19:56:5, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2025-12-05, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:I wasn't bitching - just suggesting you might not want to appear
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating?
If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
The last person who bitched about this signature is a resident troll, so
it stays.
out-of-date (how long is it now since Google Groups posts ceased
appearing?); it doesn't _bother_ me.
On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 11:06:25 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-12-05 06:06, Char Jackson wrote:<snip>
I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same
background.
Because that is the simple setup mode. You don't see there the virtual
networks (VLANS) it has, for instance.
In the early 2000s I used to think that dd-wrt router firmware was
complex, but the fog clears over time. It includes vlans, among many
other things.
On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a single
SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi
Positioning
System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
-a-a-a https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
-a-a-a 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
-a-a-a If you enable "include surrounding access points",
-a-a-a it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
your neighbours.
From WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
Chris wrote:
It still just boils down to knowing my home address. Which is already
public knowledge.
Hi Chris,
You're smarter than that.
I get it that all the Apple trolls are desperate to minimize the privacy implications of what has widely been reported as a privacy nightmare.
You Apple trolls always defend everything Apple to the death.
No matter what.
So it's natural that you and Jolly Roger claim that Apple's invasion of our privacy is, in the words of Jolly Roger "a nothing burger".
But you need to realize privacy professionals out there disagree with you.
*Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>
For you Apple trolls to claim the security professionals are wrong
is your
own way of defending everything Apple does, to the death, no matter what.
*Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
<https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>
Luckily, of all the Apple trolls, you're one who sometimes can exercise critical thinking processes, so allow me to give you a local example.
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a single SSID or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Windows:
1. Press Win+R
2. Type: cmd
3. In the command prompt, type:
netsh wlan show networks mode=bssid
4. Look for your SSID name
5. Under it, find "BSSID" lines
6. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
MacOS:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: airport -s
3. Find your SSID in the list
4. Copy the BSSID shown (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
If you enable "include surrounding access points",
it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
"enp0s1 Interface doesn't support scanning"
On 2025-12-06 13:58, Chris wrote:
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
"enp0s1 Interface doesn't support scanning"
This Linux command is correct, except that it tries all network
interfaces, including some that work for the purpose and some that do
not. And on those it prints that informative error message.
XXX:~ # iwlist scan
lo Interface doesn't support scanning.
eth0 Interface doesn't support scanning.
wlan1 Scan completed :
Cell 01 - Address: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF
Channel:116
Frequency:5.58 GHz (Channel 116)
Quality=70/70 Signal level=-28 dBm
Encryption key:on
ESSID:"Some name"
...
...
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
your neighbours.
From WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side of
the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there is
no warranty that it is accurate.
Only you are making out that it is a privacy nightmare and it drives you to change your behaviour.
It has no negative impact on ordinary people.
We now know from your inability to come up with a way to actually track me that what is required is knowledge of a WAP's MAC address. This is only
known by being in direct contact with the WAP (to read the sticker) or connected to it. Both of which mean you'll find out the location when you
are AT THE LOCATION.
You're a moron if you think this is a problem.
You Apple trolls always defend everything Apple to the death.
No matter what.
Incorrect. You're pushing an invalid narrative, which needs to be
addressed.
But you need to realize privacy professionals out there disagree with you. >> *Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>
That's a clickbait article. Nowhere does it explain how a domestic, mains powered router is like a battery powered device that fits on a keychain.
To many people Airtags and the like are a *good* thing. Mullins have been sold.
The only real scenario they demonstrate as being a genuine risk is being in
a warzone like Ukraine and Gaza. Again, of no relevance to 99.999% of
people. Am pretty sure the Santa Cruz mountains aren't awarzone.
For you Apple trolls to claim the security professionals are wrong
Incorrect. No-one is saying that. We're saying you're wrong. As per usual.
Amazon should ask for their money back for your "reviews". Oh wait they can't, because you give away your time to a multi-billion dollar company
for free!! What an utter moron.
Honestly, your world sounds *exhausting*.
The very fact Amazon selected me, where they only choose the top
half million or so reviewers to invite to Vine, says something.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
your neighbours.
From WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side of
the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there is
no warranty that it is accurate.
Where I live, it's so accurate as to make my heart palpitate in shock.
However, I see what Alan Baker wrote based on your inclusion of his post,
but he's dead wrong (as always), but I can't fault Alan Baker for being
dead wrong about everything as his IQ is well below anything normal.
For people like you, Chris,
I can point out that when I look at the
database, given our homes are far apart, it's trivial to identify the exact neighbor with the exact BSSID.
So while you must be aware I don't advocate tracking your neighbors, one answer to your question of how I could track YOU is if you were one of my neighbors.
If YOU were one of my neighbors, that query would show me exactly where YOU live and exactly what your BSSID is, which I could use to track you for as long as you use that particular router.
For example, if you moved away, but if you re-used your router, then I
would know EXACTLY where you lived, if you moved to another sparse location such as mine is.
I did NOT check for access points in the middle of Los Angeles though,
where I'd suspect Alan Baker's comment is more apropos given the density of access points would be far greater than it is out here in the boonies.
On 2025-12-06 02:18, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a
single SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it >>> also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi
Positioning
System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
iwlist scan | grep "Address:\|SSID"
...
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
-a-a-a https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
-a-a-a 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
-a-a-a If you enable "include surrounding access points",
-a-a-a it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a >>> new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
your neighbours.
-aFrom WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side of
the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there is
no warranty that it is accurate.
On 2025-12-06 05:59, Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 11:06:25 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-12-05 06:06, Char Jackson wrote:<snip>
I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same
background.
Because that is the simple setup mode. You don't see there the virtual
networks (VLANS) it has, for instance.
In the early 2000s I used to think that dd-wrt router firmware was
complex, but the fog clears over time. It includes vlans, among many
other things.
When I say that my ISP setup of the router is complex, I mean things
like that the setup includes 3 active VLANs, and more things. If I buy
my own router, first I have to decode out the entire setup of the old >router, and then replicate it in the new router. Ie, create again those
3 VLANs, and every other thing they did, which are not documented. You
have to reverse engineer the setup of the provided router.
I also opt out by adding _optout_ & _nomap to the SSID.
b. This (supposedly) removes my privacy information from the servers
Chris wrote:
Only you are making out that it is a privacy nightmare and it drives you to >> change your behaviour.
<https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf>
"In this work, we show that Apples WPS implementation
can easily be abused to create a serious privacy threat
on a global scale."
It has no negative impact on ordinary people.
I get it that you Apple trolls always defend Apple to the death, no matter what, but all I will ask of you (given the listing above) is for you to...
*Find even a single security researcher who agrees with you.*
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
"The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System"
We now know from your inability to come up with a way to actually track me >> that what is required is knowledge of a WAP's MAC address. This is only
known by being in direct contact with the WAP (to read the sticker) or
connected to it. Both of which mean you'll find out the location when you
are AT THE LOCATION.
Notice that, where I live, in the mountains high above Silicon Valley, the query we discussed prior shows EXACTLY the EXACT BSSID of all my neighbors.
It's EXACT, Chris.
It's horrifyingly exact, Chris.
I almost had a heart attack when I saw how clearly I could identify each
and every one of my neighbors by their exact location and BSSID, Chris.
What's worse, since Apple's WPS database has no security control
whatsoever, anyone in the world can do easily what I just did, Chris.
All of us can be tracked. And it's not just me saying it.
Read the papers, Chris. Read them.
*Find even a single security researcher who agrees with you.*
<https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>
"In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"
You're a moron if you think this is a problem.
It's a given
But you need to realize privacy professionals out there disagree with you. >>> *Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>
That's a clickbait article. Nowhere does it explain how a domestic, mains
powered router is like a battery powered device that fits on a keychain.
Well, Brian Krebs is a well-known well-respected researcher, is he not?
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
In the UK (and I assume wider within Europe) many ISPs do remote
provisioning using TR-069 protocol.
Do you know the extent of that "provisioning", i.e. what they can and
can not do?
quite likely change all settings and do firmware updates, reboots
Also of the router part, i.e. router settings, passwords, IP settings, etc.?
If so, how is the user's ('LAN') still his/hers and still secure? How
about the user being liable for any abuse/misuse from the ISP's side/ personel?
Over time (some 20+ years), my modem/router devices have either been
installed by an on-site technician (probably two times) or by myself,
i.e. they ship a replacement modem/router (sometimes with things like
cables, adapters, outlets, etc.) and I install it (probably three or
more times).
I generally start with the ISP's device, then migrate to my own device,
but the I've stayed with same ISP since 2004
Over time, I have used two of my own routers. The first one was
needed, because the modem only had one hardwired connection. The second, because the first was too slow (bps). After that, I've used the ISP's built-in routers because they offered sufficient functionality. And yes,
also since about that time (March 2003 actually).
Here is how to opt out of the following databases
In the early 2000s I used to think that dd-wrt router firmware was
complex, but the fog clears over time. It includes vlans, among many
other things.
When I say that my ISP setup of the router is complex, I mean things
like that the setup includes 3 active VLANs, and more things. If I buy
my own router, first I have to decode out the entire setup of the old >>router, and then replicate it in the new router. Ie, create again those
3 VLANs, and every other thing they did, which are not documented. You >>have to reverse engineer the setup of the provided router.
I don't see anything complex about setting up consumer networking gear,
but I'll take your word for it.
In the early days the WRT-54G had enough memory to flash DD-WRT on it
On 2025/12/5 19:56:5, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2025-12-05, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating?
If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
The last person who bitched about this signature is a resident troll, so
it stays.
I wasn't bitching
Char Jackson wrote:
In the early 2000s I used to think that dd-wrt router firmware was
complex, but the fog clears over time. It includes vlans, among many
other things.
When I say that my ISP setup of the router is complex, I mean things
like that the setup includes 3 active VLANs, and more things. If I buy
my own router, first I have to decode out the entire setup of the old
router, and then replicate it in the new router. Ie, create again those
3 VLANs, and every other thing they did, which are not documented. You
have to reverse engineer the setup of the provided router.
I don't see anything complex about setting up consumer networking gear,
but I'll take your word for it.
I agree with Char Jackson, who has helped me over the years to set up old Linksys & Netgear routers on DD-WRT as bridges (and as bridge repeaters).
In all those years, I haven't explicitly run into VLANs but implicitly many guest networks and repeater bridges make use of VLANs as far as I'm aware.
On 2025-12-06 04:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-06 02:18, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a
single SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's
location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi
Positioning
System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
iwlist scan | grep "Address:\|SSID"
...
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool. >>>> 1. Open the WaveDigger site:Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
-a-a-a https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
-a-a-a 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
-a-a-a If you enable "include surrounding access points",
-a-a-a it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves
to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home. >>>
your neighbours.
-aFrom WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side of
the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there
is no warranty that it is accurate.
Which means you cannot trust that any information returned is accurate.
Makes for a pretty bad way to track someone...
...assuming you had some way to associate someone's identity with the--
BSSID of their WiFi in the first place.
On 2025-12-07 01:10, Alan wrote:Except you first have to find a way to associate the BSSID with a
On 2025-12-06 04:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-06 02:18, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a
single SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's
location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi
Positioning
System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
iwlist scan | grep "Address:\|SSID"
...
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool. >>>>> 1. Open the WaveDigger site:
-a-a-a https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
-a-a-a 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
-a-a-a If you enable "include surrounding access points",
-a-a-a it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves >>>>> to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new
home.
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong
to your neighbours.
-aFrom WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side of
the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there
is no warranty that it is accurate.
Which means you cannot trust that any information returned is accurate.
Makes for a pretty bad way to track someone...
Much better than looking on the entire world. That's pretty good, actually.
On 2025-12-06, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On 2025/12/5 19:56:5, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2025-12-05, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating? >>>> If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
The last person who bitched about this signature is a resident troll, so >>> it stays.
I wasn't bitching
It's not about you.
Marian wrote:I did wonder; his posts are appearing here (in Thunderbird) in a
Here is how to opt out of the following databases
Going chinese? You've swapped into charset="big5" and the weird italic
font that usually uses.
On 2025-12-07 11:54, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-07 01:10, Alan wrote:Except you first have to find a way to associate the BSSID with a
On 2025-12-06 04:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-06 02:18, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
Chris wrote:
Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a
single SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's
location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi
Positioning
System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...
Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)
iwlist scan | grep "Address:\|SSID"
...
Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup
tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
-a-a-a https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
-a-a-a 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
-a-a-a If you enable "include surrounding access points",
-a-a-a it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.
Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of
them moves to a new house, you can track them if they use
their router at the new home.
Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong
to your neighbours.
-aFrom WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you): >>>>>
"Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."
So?
It showed mine just 20 or 30 metres to the west. At the other side
of the street.
May be 1-2 km away... doesn't mean they all are off. Just that there
is no warranty that it is accurate.
Which means you cannot trust that any information returned is accurate.
Makes for a pretty bad way to track someone...
Much better than looking on the entire world. That's pretty good,
actually.
particular individual.
On 2025/12/7 17:38:11, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2025-12-06, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:In that case, I don't understand your comment.
On 2025/12/5 19:56:5, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2025-12-05, J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On 2025/12/5 17:37:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM
filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client
instead.
I'm guessing that was composed when Google Groups was still operating? >>>>> If it was, maybe you might want to amend it ...
The last person who bitched about this signature is a resident troll, so >>>> it stays.
I wasn't bitching
It's not about you.
On 2025/12/7 16:6:36, Andy Burns wrote:
Marian wrote:
Here is how to opt out of the following databases
Going chinese? You've swapped into charset="big5" and the weird italic
font that usually uses.
I did wonder; his posts are appearing here (in Thunderbird) in a
different font to everyone else's. It's not italic, and I think it is monospaced; other than that it looks maybe a bit like Times but
stretched vertically.
Except you first have to find a way to associate the BSSID with aWhich means you cannot trust that any information returned is accurate. >>>>
Makes for a pretty bad way to track someone...
Much better than looking on the entire world. That's pretty good,
actually.
particular individual.
Sure.
You're trying claim that using an internet database of anonymous
information is a more serious risk than looking out of your own window.
You're claiming that the telephone books we all used to have are a serious privacy risk worth of a class action suit. LMAO.
For example, if you moved away, but if you re-used your router, then I
would know EXACTLY where you lived, if you moved to another sparse location >> such as mine is.
That's a lot of "ifs".
As you well know the scenarios shown are disasters or warzones. Which
aren't of relevance to civilians as they have far more serious issues to worry about.
They also report that 0.06% of all APs moved month to month. That's a
really poor hit rate for "tracking" people.
I almost had a heart attack when I saw how clearly I could identify each
and every one of my neighbors by their exact location and BSSID, Chris.
That is the exact point of it. It would be a pretty terrible service if it couldn't identify unique buildings within 40 acre plots. lol.
All of us can be tracked. And it's not just me saying it.
Read the papers, Chris. Read them.
Literally says 0.06% of APs move . That's nowhere near "all of us".
Marian wrote:
In the early days the WRT-54G had enough memory to flash DD-WRT on it
Still have one kicking around ... not powerful enough for anything
useful these days.
I agree with Char Jackson, who has helped me over the years to set up old
Linksys & Netgear routers on DD-WRT as bridges (and as bridge repeaters).
It is simple if someone takes the effort of describing what you have to configure in the new router. Not that easy if you have to reverse
engineer the old router and it has no comments nor help. Just the
obscure short name of a setting.
In all those years, I haven't explicitly run into VLANs but implicitly many >> guest networks and repeater bridges make use of VLANs as far as I'm aware.
Nothing implicit. One VLAN is for the phone land line, another is for
TV, another is for internet (my guess).
This is just a small part of what my router calls:
Network Setting
Bridging Setup
Bridging
Filtering
Marking
https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/7c7fef46eaef https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/9acdc9974acd https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/88d9c37538af https://paste.opensuse.org/1aece5657e7a https://paste.opensuse.org/872479cefbdb https://paste.opensuse.org/a827cc71d713
just try to explain what that does. A mistake, and my phone stops
working. And there are maybe hundreds of screens like that.
No, I am not actually interested. It is just an example of why I say
that the setup of my router by the ISP is complex.
For example, if you moved away, but if you re-used your router, then I
would know EXACTLY where you lived, if you moved to another sparse location >> such as mine is.
That's a lot of "ifs".
Thunderbird. TB can use a different font for each different charset.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-GB
I'm not familiar with this choice.
Here is how to opt out of the following databases
Going chinese? You've swapped into charset="big5" and the weird italic
font that usually uses.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
I agree with Char Jackson, who has helped me over the years to set up old >>> Linksys & Netgear routers on DD-WRT as bridges (and as bridge repeaters). >>>
It is simple if someone takes the effort of describing what you have to
configure in the new router. Not that easy if you have to reverse
engineer the old router and it has no comments nor help. Just the
obscure short name of a setting.
I must exclaim that I AGREE with Carlos, since I never disagree with
anyone, no matter who they are, who presents a logically sensible view.
We've all struggled to understand what a given switch meant when setting up
a router, where I remember, I even struggled when I moved into the
mountains to figure out which port of a POE goes to the radio versus
router. After scores of POEs, over time, we forget we had to learn it.
However...
There is one really good thing that came up only in the last year or so.
You can now ask AI/LLM how to set up your router & it will help you do it.
In all those years, I haven't explicitly run into VLANs but implicitly many >>> guest networks and repeater bridges make use of VLANs as far as I'm aware. >>Nothing implicit. One VLAN is for the phone land line, another is for
TV, another is for internet (my guess).
This is just a small part of what my router calls:
Network Setting
Bridging Setup
Bridging
Filtering
Marking
https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/7c7fef46eaef
https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/9acdc9974acd
https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/88d9c37538af
https://paste.opensuse.org/1aece5657e7a
https://paste.opensuse.org/872479cefbdb
https://paste.opensuse.org/a827cc71d713
just try to explain what that does. A mistake, and my phone stops
working. And there are maybe hundreds of screens like that.
No, I am not actually interested. It is just an example of why I say
that the setup of my router by the ISP is complex.
The RTF8225VW Router Smart WiFi 6 Go is Movistar's latest
Askey-manufactured router whose configuration guide is here.
<https://itigic.com/movistar-router-smart-wifi-6-manual-configuration-guide/>
The bridge mode support apparently lets you connect a neutral router (like TP-Link or Asus) to manage your network, avoiding double NAT.
<https://algoentremanos.com/como-configurar-router-movistar-smart-wifi-6-go-rtf8225vw-modo-bridge/>
Moviestart can push the firmware updates if you don't want to do it.
<https://comunidad.movistar.es/discussions/soporte-fibra-optica/ultimo-firmware-router-smart-wifi-go-router-askey-rtf8225vw/5181231>
You appear to be using bridge mode which is optional.
a. Advanced Settings > Internet > Bridge Mode.
b. Then connect your home router to the RTF8225VW.
Chris wrote:
They also report that 0.06% of all APs moved month to month. That's a
really poor hit rate for "tracking" people.
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database
of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Let's just say California wanted to find all the people who moved from California to Florida who retired to ask them to pay their 401K taxes.
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Marian wrote:
Maybe you can explain what happens with fonts as I've never understood
how
they show up for people like you who are on the receiving end of my
posts.
I write the content in gVim and I send it off with telnet.
Everything in the header related to the newsreader is essentially random.
Specifically, whatever the header "says" about fonts, is random.
It's not "completely" random as the header lines are "scraped".
Carlos E.R. wrote:> No, the font used is chosen locally by your client, which I take to be
Thunderbird. TB can use a different font for each different charset.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-GB
I'm not familiar with this choice.
Andy found a flaw in my newsreader, which is a custom unique newsreader.
In that newsreader, there's one thing I've never figured out, which is
how fonts work in Usenet (since most lines in my header are completely random).
As you know, I have a unique newsreader which is simply telnet with gVim.
The scripts don't care what fonts are used. It's just a line to telnet.
The header lines not added by the nntp server are added by my scripts.
But they're essentially random.
I got the lines, long ago, from scraping Usenet for header lines.
So some newsreaders tended to have one set of font lines, while other newsreaders tended to have a different set of font lines. It's random.
They change whenever I flip a switch to the next dictionary lookup.
I'll do that right now so that you can see different header lines.
I have no idea how the header lines look to the recipient though.
Nor how the fonts are interpreted as they're always sent the same.
But nothing has changed in that I'm still using telnet with gVim.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
Except you first have to find a way to associate the BSSID with aWhich means you cannot trust that any information returned is accurate. >>>>>
Makes for a pretty bad way to track someone...
Much better than looking on the entire world. That's pretty good,
actually.
particular individual.
Sure.
I just want the people here to understand that when your BSSID is in
Apple's database, and if you live in a rural area (such as I do),
then your GPS coordinates returned to 8 decimal places... is you.
If you move, then they can track where you moved.
For example, an enterprising coder could query the Apple WPS database for
all routers that moved between locations to put them into a database.
Then they could sell that database to professionals who target people who just moved. That's only one example, as I'm not that type of person.
It could be more nefarious in that with Apple's insecure WPS database, you can *target* individuals, which again, I don't advocate but it can be done.
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the
same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
They also report that 0.06% of all APs moved month to month. That's a
really poor hit rate for "tracking" people.
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database >> of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Not people. WAPs.
Let's just say California wanted to find all the people who moved from
California to Florida who retired to ask them to pay their 401K taxes.
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Go on then. If it's so trivial, why don't you do it?
Show us with step by step instructions how many *people* - as you claim - moved to FL from CA in the last six months.
You have a week. If you can't then I call bullshit.
I know what will happen, however. You won't even try. You will cry, shout
and stomp your feet blaming everyone else apart from yourself. Just like a big baby.
You'll not hear from me until next week so as to not direct you from this important privacy risk study.
Maybe you can explain what happens with fonts as I've never understood
how
they show up for people like you who are on the receiving end of my
posts.
The receiver controls the font, but modified based on certain charsets,
e.g. Chinese tend to use "big5" and Thunderbird will use either a YaHei
or SimSun font for that, which always looks like a low quality scratchy
font on my machines ... someone else described it as "stretched
vertically Times Roman"
<https://fontsgeek.com/fonts/SimSun-Regular>
I write the content in gVim and I send it off with telnet.
Everything in the header related to the newsreader is essentially random. >>>
Specifically, whatever the header "says" about fonts, is random.
It's not "completely" random as the header lines are "scraped".
Maybe any scraped sample headers that you randomly include into postings should exclude those with charset big5, or koi8 (similar for russian)
But nothing has changed in that I'm still using telnet with gVim.
But you have to be careful about what your random headers do to us. You should not use random headers in things like the charset.
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database >> of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Not people. WAPs.
Let's just say California wanted to find all the people who moved from
California to Florida who retired to ask them to pay their 401K taxes.
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Go on then. If it's so trivial, why don't you do it?
Show us with step by step instructions how many *people* - as you claim - moved to FL from CA in the last six months.
You have a week. If you can't then I call bullshit.
I know what will happen, however. You won't even try. You will cry, shout
and stomp your feet blaming everyone else apart from yourself. Just like a big baby.
You'll not hear from me until next week so as to not direct you from this important privacy risk study.
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the
same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
You'll not hear from me until next week so as to not direct you from this
important privacy risk study.
His point is correct, though. An interested party could dig out this information...
You appear to be using bridge mode which is optional.
a. Advanced Settings > Internet > Bridge Mode.
b. Then connect your home router to the RTF8225VW.
No, I am not using bridge mode. I'm using the normal default mode as it comes out of the box, prepared to work with telef<nica, then added a few things, like my SSID/Password, dhcp range to use, what ports I want translated, etc.
the post you said was in
Chinese fonts was no different, on my side, than any other post from me.
On 2025-12-08 08:54, Chris wrote:
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
They also report that 0.06% of all APs moved month to month. That's a
really poor hit rate for "tracking" people.
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database >>> of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Not people. WAPs.
Let's just say California wanted to find all the people who moved from
California to Florida who retired to ask them to pay their 401K taxes.
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Go on then. If it's so trivial, why don't you do it?
Show us with step by step instructions how many *people* - as you claim -
moved to FL from CA in the last six months.
You have a week. If you can't then I call bullshit.
I know what will happen, however. You won't even try. You will cry, shout
and stomp your feet blaming everyone else apart from yourself. Just like a >> big baby.
You'll not hear from me until next week so as to not direct you from this
important privacy risk study.
His point is correct, though. An interested party could dig out this information, even if Arlen doesn't come out with code to do it.
Chris wrote:
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database >>> of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Not people. WAPs.
My AP BSSID is me. It's nobody else. It's me. To 8 decimal places, it's me. They have my name. My address. Everything. My BSSID is me.
Why do you think I redacted my BSSID in the screenshots I provided you? <https://i.postimg.cc/C5Pcb6RQ/decimal.jpg>
I even published a tutorial for how you can track BSSID's, Chris.
I published that tutorial on Saturday. To prove the point it's easy.
Let's just say California wanted to find all the people who moved from
California to Florida who retired to ask them to pay their 401K taxes.
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Go on then. If it's so trivial, why don't you do it?
Show us with step by step instructions how many *people* - as you claim -
moved to FL from CA in the last six months.
You have a week. If you can't then I call bullshit.
You are nuts. It's so trivial that you must be nuts to not realize it is.
I did it already. I already wrote the code. I already published the code.
I published the code on Saturday already.
It takes any number of BSSIDs and tracks them.
I am a bit dismayed that your argument defending Apple to the death,
no matter what, is so baseless, that I already published the code.
I know what will happen, however. You won't even try. You will cry, shout
and stomp your feet blaming everyone else apart from yourself. Just like a >> big baby.
You are nuts. I already posted the code long ago to this very newsgroup.
I wrote the tutorial for God's sake. You're nuts, Chris. Seriously. Nuts.
You claim I won't do what I already did for God's sake. You're nuts Chris.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the
same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
I agree with anyone, no matter who they are, who posits a sensibly logical statement, where I would heartily agree with you that if you hand back the router to the telco, then you can't be tracked by subsequent use of it.
However...
The argument made by the security researchers is valid that they tracked "longitudinal" movements over the course of a year using Apple WPS. <https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>
The researchers argue that Apple makes it trivial to collect millions of router locations which they can track on a massive scale because there are
no security controls whatsoever (not even a login!) for the Apple WPS db.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand how dangerous that is.
If Apple honored the "_nomap" & the "hidden SSID" it wouldn't be so bad.
But Apple clearly does not honor their own rules (which I can prove).
On 2025-12-08 00:10, Marian wrote:[...]
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
Any imaginative person can think of many instances where having a database
of all the people who moved and exact where from and to, is useful.
Not people. WAPs.
My AP BSSID is me. It's nobody else. It's me. To 8 decimal places, it's me. They have my name. My address. Everything. My BSSID is me.
Lol. Your name is a MAC address? I can see why you'd not want to disclose that.
My AP BSSID is me. It's nobody else. It's me. To 8 decimal places, it's me. >> They have my name. My address. Everything. My BSSID is me.
Lol. Your name is a MAC address? I can see why you'd not want to disclose that.
Your zip code is also "you". Is a database of zip codes that all online retailers have access to equally a serious privacy risk?
Why do you think I redacted my BSSID in the screenshots I provided you?
<https://i.postimg.cc/C5Pcb6RQ/decimal.jpg>
Understandably, you don't want to share your home address to the wider internet. We have additional information so can link you with the address.
I even published a tutorial for how you can track BSSID's, Chris.
I published that tutorial on Saturday. To prove the point it's easy.
Your "tutorial" was simply a lock-up table. There is no tracking involved. Like the majority of your tutorials, it was superfluous. Sufficient instructions already existed on the github.
You are nuts. It's so trivial that you must be nuts to not realize it is.
I did it already. I already wrote the code. I already published the code.
Ha ha ha! This is a new low for you. You're plagiarising other people's
code now?
I published the code on Saturday already.
It takes any number of BSSIDs and tracks them.
No it doesn't. The github script (not your code) only reports the location currently in the db. There is no history.
You claim I won't do what I already did for God's sake. You're nuts Chris.
Thanks for confirming your babyish attitude. Rather than rise to the challenge, you deflect and attack.
and hence his BSSID is him.
the post you said was in
Chinese fonts was no different, on my side, than any other post from me.
Presumably you have a collection of posts which you "harvest" headers
from? Maybe remove any posts with charset="big5" or charset="koi8" in
the headers from the collection ...
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the
same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
And the old router might be re-used by someone else, which would lead 'Arlen' to the erroneous conclusion that you had moved to the place
where that someone lives. Way to go!
The argument made by the security researchers is valid that they tracked
"longitudinal" movements over the course of a year using Apple WPS.
<https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>
Unfortunately, they give almost no details on what this year-long longitudinal study was. Unlike their month-long study which was sampled daily.
They also make reference to a six-month study for mobile routers with no specific details.
In their month-long they find that 15% of APs were "unstable" or
disappeared, 0.06% moved more than 1km and the median distance travelled
was 4km. That means 50% of APs 4km or less over the month.
Am obvious thing they should have done was to remove the mobile routers
from the global analysis. Makes interpretation harder.
Unlike you they acknowledge the APs aren't people, despite the poor
grammar.
"While there is not necessarily a 1-to-1 relationship
between Wi-Fi routers and users, home routers typically only have several."
They also make reference to a six-month study for mobile routers with no specific details.
In their month-long they find that 15% of APs were "unstable" or
disappeared, 0.06% moved more than 1km and the median distance travelled
was 4km. That means 50% of APs 4km or less over the month.
Am obvious thing they should have done was to remove the mobile routers
from the global analysis. Makes interpretation harder.
The researchers argue that Apple makes it trivial to collect millions of
router locations which they can track on a massive scale because there are >> no security controls whatsoever (not even a login!) for the Apple WPS db.
Yeah, that's a daft design decision.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand how dangerous that is.
Likewise an overactive imagination can catastrophise. A sense of proportionality is useful, here.
If Apple honored the "_nomap" & the "hidden SSID" it wouldn't be so bad.
But Apple clearly does not honor their own rules (which I can prove).
You have n=1. That's barely an anecdote.
I looked at my dictionaries and those words NEVER appear in them.
That makes sense since I didn't change anything for the one post that you noticed the Chinese fonts. You have to believe me on that. I didn't do it.
So you're really looking in the wrong place for the problem.
Almost certainly the problem is either how my newsserver forwards things on my side, or how your newsserver/newsreader receives things on your side.
I think what must have happened is:
a. I copied and pasted text that contained funky characters.
b. Somehow, your newsreader saw that as a Chinese character set.
It's not particularly important by now, but if you look at your message
<https://al.howardknight.net/?ID=176540312200>
it does contain big5, that's what triggered fonts, if it remains a
mystery, that doesn't bother me ...
Like I said, I never understood the Usenet character set directive.
Frank Slootweg wrote:LOL!
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the >>>> same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
-a And the old router might be re-used by someone else, which would lead
'Arlen' to the erroneous conclusion that you had moved to the place
where that someone lives. Way to go!
If Frank is trying to intimate that this news about Apple's highly insecure WPS system can't track people, then I'm going to have to disagree with him.
Frank hates me,
Andy Burns wrote:
It's not particularly important by now, but if you look at your message
<https://al.howardknight.net/?ID=176540312200>
it does contain big5, that's what triggered fonts, if it remains a
mystery, that doesn't bother me ...
Hmmm... thanks for looking since I was so sure I didn't add it that I
didn't even bother to look. Now I'm looking at your reference <https://al.howardknight.net/?ID=176540312200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Frank Slootweg wrote:
But the fact is you can be tracked anywhere in the world if you use the >>> same router, which very often people who have moved will easily do.
Considering that here the router is often provided by the Telco, when
you move you have to hand over the old router, and get a new one with
the new contract at the new destination.
And the old router might be re-used by someone else, which would lead 'Arlen' to the erroneous conclusion that you had moved to the place
where that someone lives. Way to go!
If Frank is trying to intimate that this news about Apple's highly insecure WPS system can't track people, then I'm going to have to disagree with him.
Frank hates me, which is fine, since this is Usenet and we all have a thick skin. Frank even declares everyone he happens to hate, happens to be me.
He does it all the time (and I just sit back and let it run off my skin).
Frank told us years ago he was never able to get into a college,
so I
should treat him gently when he makes his absurd statements to attack me.
All I will ask of Frank, on behalf of everyone he is trolling right now,
is for Frank to simply find just one security researcher who agrees with
him.
Frank Slootweg wrote:
and hence his BSSID is him.
Your IQ is too low to understand that "tracking" is just running the script
a few times. It's shocking that I have to explain something that trivial.
N++oN++ON++@N+++?-NN++ Big5 N++sN++XN++N++N++N++N+++#TN++N++N++C<---chinese characters are here
Unreadable, because your charset headers are random and faked, they do
not correspond to the contents of the text. This is a bug in your
scripts, they should send the charset headers that are true and
correspond to your actual text encoding. Otherwise, our readers will try
to display your posts and fail to do the correct rendering.
What I can do is scrub each message via the XML substitution below.
it does contain big5, that's what triggered fonts, if it remains a
mystery, that doesn't bother me ...
Hmmm... thanks for looking since I was so sure I didn't add it that I
didn't even bother to look. Now I'm looking at your reference
<https://al.howardknight.net/?ID=176540312200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The server to which you upload the post can do its own changes.
Proving you wrong is not an attack._That_ line has gone straight into my quotes file!
Hint: No professional on the planet agrees with you. And we know that.
Argument to authority fallacy noted.
Proving you wrong is not an attack.
_That_ line has gone straight into my quotes file!
The BSSID would be the same, but the SSID would change (I would be
careful to do a factory reset to the router before returning it).
so I
should treat him gently when he makes his absurd statements to attack me.
Proving you wrong is not an attack.
[1] Not that it matters. Apparently "excellent education" and "high
IQ" isn't all that meaningful.
Chris wrote:
Hint: No professional on the planet agrees with you. And we know that.
Argument to authority fallacy noted.
Request of both Chris & Frank...
If you truly believe your oft-stated opinion that a BSSID:GPS pair is "just
a number" when we're talking about privacy, please find just one security researcher on the planet who agrees with your strongly held privacy claim.
In addition, in the above scenario, the tax authorities would have far
better information at their disposal on actual people rather than some
vague technical proxy. A MAC is not a person. Not yet at least ;)
Apparently *your* IQ is too low to realize that I never said anything
Let's remember your claim. You said:
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Your code is nowhere near this.
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct.
You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because they
do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
My AP BSSID is me. It's nobody else. It's me. To 8 decimal places, it's me. >>But no one but you knows which BSSID belongs to you.
You should know by now that you should not confuse
If you truly believe your oft-stated opinion that a BSSID:GPS pair is "just >> a number" when we're talking about privacy, please find just one security
researcher on the planet who agrees with your strongly held privacy claim.
And what would that achieve?
Being dependent on someone else's opinion is weak.
Why don't you engage with the criticism and defend your own argument with evidence? You like to call yourself a scientist. Now's your chance to act like one.
should treat him gently when he makes his absurd statements to attack me. >>Proving you wrong is not an attack.
It is to those
Chris wrote:
Let's remember your claim. You said:
It would be trivial, using Apple's WPS system, to find everyone in any
given county in Florida who recently moved there from California.
Your code is nowhere near this.
Your lack of intelligence shows up in your lack of imagination.
For example, the fact I do not feel like tracking people, somehow, to you, means that people can't be tracked.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct.
You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because they
do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
In addition, in the above scenario, the tax authorities would have far
better information at their disposal on actual people rather than some
vague technical proxy. A MAC is not a person. Not yet at least ;)
To equate the government with random companies selling your identification for a buck is probably something most people wouldn't directly do.
I wouldn't put it past the government, but I wonder what kind of repressive regime Chris must be living under to equate the government with Apple?
There's a huge difference in the government's power over you versus
Apple's. Well, at least for a normal person. Maybe not for Chris. :)
Chris wrote:
If you truly believe your oft-stated opinion that a BSSID:GPS pair is "just >>> a number" when we're talking about privacy, please find just one security >>> researcher on the planet who agrees with your strongly held privacy claim. >>And what would that achieve?
Being dependent on someone else's opinion is weak.
Why don't you engage with the criticism and defend your own argument with
evidence? You like to call yourself a scientist. Now's your chance to act
like one.
I get it you Apple trolls always defend Apple to the death, no matter what.
Alan Baker, Alan Browne, Chris, Haemactylus, -hh, Jeorg Lorenz,
JF Mezei, Jolly Roger, Lewis, nospam, Tom Elam, Tyrone, Your Name
All I'm asking you to do is what I've done, which is quote reliable references that back up your claim that a BSSID:GPS pair is, to you,
*Just a Number*
Name just one security reseaqrcher on the planet who agrees with you.
*Name Just One*
HINT: You Apple trolls always fail this simple credibility test.
HINT: The fact that Franks' (and Chris') only defense of their own
illogical view of the BSSID:GPS pair not locating a household
Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Chris wrote:
If you truly believe your oft-stated opinion that a BSSID:GPS pair is "just
Alan Baker, Alan Browne, Chris, Haemactylus, -hh, Jeorg Lorenz,
JF Mezei, Jolly Roger, Lewis, nospam, Tom Elam, Tyrone, Your Name
This subthread tells you all you need to know about our Donald.
Acknowledgement of *our* argument duly noted.
Essentially, we get a more full output if we run the netsh command moments after we force our wifi adapter to reset than if it was already running.
You said it was "trivial". So far your efforts show it's far from it, which is my point. You make such grandiose claims, Donald, and then you TACO from backing them up.
Note that we can plot those ~400 entries on a map with Python's folium library so you can visually explore the cluster instead of scrolling.
Marian wrote:
Note that we can plot those ~400 entries on a map with Python's folium
library so you can visually explore the cluster instead of scrolling.
It's trivial to display all the results.txt BSSID:GPS pairs on a local map!
Download the folium source archive <https://pypi.org/project/folium/#files> <https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/c7/76/84a1b1b00ce71f9c0c44af7d80f310c02e2e583591fe7d4cb03baecd0d3f/folium-0.20.0.tar.gz>
Name: folium-0.20.0.tar.gz
Size: 109932 bytes (107 KiB)
SHA256: A0D78B9D5A36BA7589CA9AEDBD433E84E9FCAB79CD6AC213ADBCFF922E454CB9
C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe xfolium-0.20.0.tar.gz
C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe x folium-0.20.0.tar
xcopy /E /I folium-0.20.0\folium C:\app\os\python\Lib\site-packages\folium
53 files copied
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -c "import folium; print(folium.__version__)"
Download the latest branca release from PyPI: <https://pypi.org/project/branca/#files> https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/32/14/9d409124bda3f4ab7af3802aba07181d1fd56aa96cc4b999faea6a27a0d2/branca-0.8.2.tar.gz
Name: branca-0.8.2.tar.gz
Size: 27890 bytes (27 KiB)
SHA256: E5040F4C286E973658C27DE9225C1A5A7356DD0702A7C8D84C0F0DFBDE388FE7 C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe x branca-0.8.2.tar.gz
C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe x branca-0.8.2.tar
xcopy /E /I branca-0.8.2\branca C:\app\os\python\Lib\site-packages\branca
10 files copied
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -c "import branca; print(branca.__version__)"
Download Jinja2 source archive
<https://pypi.org/project/Jinja2/#files> https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/df/bf/f7da0350254c0ed7c72f3e33cef02e048281fec7ecec5f032d4aac52226b/jinja2-3.1.6.tar.gz
Name: jinja2-3.1.6.tar.gz
Size: 245115 bytes (239 KiB)
SHA256: 0137FB05990D35F1275A587E9AEE6D56DA821FC83491A0FB838183BE43F66D6D C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe x Jinja2-3.1.6.tar.gz
C:\app\archiver\7zip\7z.exe x Jinja2-3.1.6.tar
xcopy /E /I Jinja2-3.1.6\src\jinja2 C:\app\os\python\Lib\site-packages\jinja2 26 files copied
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -c "import jinja2; print(jinja2.__version__)"
Since this is getting tedious, I'll install pip:
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -m ensurepip
And then I'll install the rest of the dependencies. C:\app\os\python\python.exe -m pip install markupsafe C:\app\os\python\python.exe -m pip install numpy
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -m pip install xyzservices
Test:
C:\app\os\python\python.exe -c "import folium; print(folium.__version__)" C:\app\os\python\python.exe -c "import folium; m =
folium.Map(location=[0,0], zoom_start=2); m.save('test_map.html'); print('OK')"
python plot_bssid.py
Map saved to bssid_map.html
start msedge "C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\bssid_map.html"
Voila! Up to 400 nearest access points on the map in a single query.
Voila! Up to 400 nearest access points on the map in a single query.
I mean, it's great you're really getting into this and enjoying sharing
your workings, however, this doesn't address your original "trivial" claim. You're still only exploring one (known) BSSID at a time. Even on a loop.
The truly non-trivial bit is expanding to all of california and all of florida unknown BSSIDs then doing a temporal mapping between the two.
I get it. It's very easy to underestimate the complexity of data questions.
Professionally I work with a lot academic researchers and they always get a real shock at how time consuming (and therefore expensive) doing real-world data analyses is. They often think coming up with the question is the difficult bit. It really isn't.
The UOM paper,, for example, collected data over 22/23 and was published in May 24. That'll give you an idea of how long this stuff takes.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
In addition, in the above scenario, the tax authorities would have far
better information at their disposal on actual people rather than some
vague technical proxy. A MAC is not a person. Not yet at least ;)
To equate the government with random companies selling your identification for a buck is probably something most people wouldn't directly do.--
I wouldn't put it past the government, but I wonder what kind of repressive regime Chris must be living under to equate the government with Apple?
There's a huge difference in the government's power over you versus
Apple's. Well, at least for a normal person. Maybe not for Chris. :)
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct.
You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because
they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple.
Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but
even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with Trump?
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the BSSID:GPS pair and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
On 2025-12-13 04:14, Marian wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct. >>> You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because
they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple. Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with Trump?
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the BSSID:GPS pair and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before, although I don't
read every message completely. I did a quick search, manually, on the
three messages directly up the tree from this one for the word "Trump"
and I did not find it. I can not easily do a text search on the content
of messages on the nntp group. Do you have a message-id?
Marian wrote:
What I can do is scrub each message via the XML substitution below.
I wrote a tutorial and posted it to the Windows newsgroups, for
substituting all the funky characters to the 95 keyboard characters.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
it does contain big5, that's what triggered fonts, if it remains a
mystery, that doesn't bother me ...
Hmmm... thanks for looking since I was so sure I didn't add it that I
didn't even bother to look. Now I'm looking at your reference
<https://al.howardknight.net/?ID=176540312200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The server to which you upload the post can do its own changes.
Thanks for your help and from the help of Andy, where I want to be very
clear that I've never really understood this charset header stuff. :(
What I'll do, moving forward, is when I copy from another source, I will
run it thru my macro (see other post with the macro) to clean it up.
That way the text I post will always be clean ASCII using only the 95 keyboard characters, so the charset header line won't matter.
On 2025-12-13 04:14, Marian wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct. >>>> You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because
they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple.
Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but
even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with Trump?
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the BSSID:GPS pair >> and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with
theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before, although I don't
read every message completely. I did a quick search, manually, on the
three messages directly up the tree from this one for the word "Trump"
and I did not find it. I can not easily do a text search on the content
of messages on the nntp group. Do you have a message-id?
On 2025-12-13 04:14, Marian wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct. >>>> You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple.
Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but
even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with Trump?
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the BSSID:GPS pair >> and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with
theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before, although I don't read every message completely. I did a quick search, manually, on the three messages directly up the tree from this one for the word "Trump" and I did not find it. I can not easily do a text search on the content of messages on the nntp group. Do you have a message-id?
I'm renovating a home for a relative so I won't have a lot of time to
devote to patiently teaching you, at least for the next few weeks.
Sure you are. You're simply weaselling out of your "trivial" exercise.
For my slightly modified apple_bssid_locator.py
a. You give it a BSSID
b. it forces Apple to return the entire Wi-Fi cluster.
c. it writes every BSSID + GPS coordinate to results.txt.
If you want to view results.txt in a map showing all your neighbors' APs
python.exe bssidplot.py
Chris wrote:
I'm renovating a home for a relative so I won't have a lot of time to
devote to patiently teaching you, at least for the next few weeks.
Sure you are. You're simply weaselling out of your "trivial" exercise.
Do you really want to see how trivial it is so "snowball" from your own
home router, to every home router in the world in increasing circles?
I'm renovating a home for a relative so I won't have a lot of time to
devote to patiently teaching you, at least for the next few weeks.
Sure you are. You're simply weaselling out of your "trivial" exercise.
Do you really want to see how trivial it is so "snowball" from your own
home router, to every home router in the world in increasing circles?
That wasn't your "trivial" exercise. It was finding every AP is california and tracking them to florida. Remember?
On Sun, 12/14/2025 3:30 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-13 04:14, Marian wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would concoct. >>>>> You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name.
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple.
Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but
even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with Trump? >>>
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the BSSID:GPS pair >>> and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with
theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before, although I don't read every message completely. I did a quick search, manually, on the three messages directly up the tree from this one for the word "Trump" and I did not find it. I can not easily do a text search on the content of messages on the nntp group. Do you have a message-id?
You can use Offline Mode and sync the server content with your client, so
the client has a copy of all the messages currently on the server.
Then when you search the group, you get a more realistic sample
of the message bodies and claims about what somebody said.
Fri, 11/17/2023 478,483,218 comp.lang.c <=== only created for offline mode (whole messages)
Thu, 10/05/2023 27 comp.lang.c.dat <=== (filter definitions)
Sat, 12/13/2025 50,425,664 comp.lang.c.msf <=== Mork Summary File (headers only)
I've only done this the one time, as a demo of the file sizes.
On 2025-12-15 04:57, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 12/14/2025 3:30 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-13 04:14, Marian wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You trolls make the most absurd arguments that only you would
concoct.
You actually believe someone said their MAC address was their name. >>>>>
You will not convince anyone by calling people trolls just because
they do not agree with you. It rather makes us abandone the issue.
His claim is I'm a "Trump supporter" because I want privacy from Apple. >>>> Frank Slootweg made the same claim.
I've never said a good word about ANY politician (let alone Trump), but >>>> even if I had, what does privacy from Apple's WPS have to do with
Trump?
You tell me.
Is that Chris & Frank trolling or not?
And, how does their "Trump supporter" argument sit with you, Carlos?
Remember, I'm arguing that they can track households via the
BSSID:GPS pair
and they're saying it's "just a number".
Even if you disagree with my argument, how can you possibly agree with >>>> theirs?
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before, although I
don't read every message completely. I did a quick search, manually,
on the three messages directly up the tree from this one for the word
"Trump" and I did not find it. I can not easily do a text search on
the content of messages on the nntp group. Do you have a message-id?
You can use Offline Mode and sync the server content with your client, so
the client has a copy of all the messages currently on the server.
Then when you search the group, you get a more realistic sample
of the message bodies and claims about what somebody said.
Fri, 11/17/2023-a-a-a-a-a-a 478,483,218 comp.lang.c-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a <=== only
created for offline mode (whole messages)
Thu, 10/05/2023-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 27 comp.lang.c.dat-a-a-a-a <=== (filter
definitions)
Sat, 12/13/2025-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 50,425,664 comp.lang.c.msf-a-a-a-a <=== Mork >> Summary File (headers only)
I've only done this the one time, as a demo of the file sizes.
My Thunderbird is set to not cache the bodies of messages. As a
consequence, body search is greyed out or not in the list at all.
This is because I an using leafnode, an nntp proxy server. It stores
locally all messages, so thunderbird effectively gets a copy sent from
the local disk, fast.
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of
every message.
Why don't you question them calling me a "Trump supporter"?
Sorry, I haven't noticed a reference to Trump before
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of
every message.
There is no such post. He's just emitting another series of straw men.
I didn't say what he claims and what I *did* say, I said in a different context. So zero points.
This subthread tells you all you need to know about our Donald.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of every message.
Below are the message IDs which anyone can look up for Usenet messages. <http://al.howardknight.net/>
Carlos E.R. wrote:
You appear to be using bridge mode which is optional.
a. Advanced Settings > Internet > Bridge Mode.
b. Then connect your home router to the RTF8225VW.
No, I am not using bridge mode. I'm using the normal default mode as
it comes out of the box, prepared to work with telefN++nica, then added
a few things, like my SSID/Password, dhcp range to use, what ports I
want translated, etc.
Thanks for letting us know, as bridge mode isn't something most of us have used frequently, although I've set up routers as bridges when I have a desktop that doesn't have a Wi-Fi card but which only has an RJ45 port.
1. The Windows 10 PC "thinks" it's using the Ethernet port.
2. But that is connected to the router which is set up as a bridge.
3. Then the router bridges to the Wi-Fi access point far away from the PC.
It's been a while and people like Char Jackson know this stuff way better than I do, but bridges do "funny things" sometimes.
As far as I can figure out, in my situation with a desktop & bridge
1. My PC sees only a wired Ethernet connection. -a It has no concept of Wi-Fi SSIDs or BSSIDs because it's not running
-a through a Wi-Fi NIC driver.
2. The bridge router acts as a wireless client to the upstream Wi-Fi access point. It associates with the AP using the AP's SSID and BSSID,
-a just like a laptop would.
3. On the Ehernet side of the bridge, it appears to be a standard
Ethernet -a interface to the PC. It does not expose the SSID/BSSID to the wired -a client as the PC can see only MAC-level Ethernet frames.
Nowadays I use a USB dongle as the Wi-Fi to the Windows 10 PC.
It acts differently than the bridge did because the USB Wi-Fi dongle acts
as a Wi-Fi NIC.
So I haven't used bridges in a while and I never really understood them.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of
every message.
Below are the message IDs which anyone can look up for Usenet messages. <http://al.howardknight.net/>
What Chris & Frank are doing, Carlos, is attacking me by calling me
a Trump supporter, simply because they hate the technical point I proved.
They have no other defense since I proved their claims wrong that
a BSSID:GPS pair is not trackable. So they call me a Trump supporter.
Chris is constantly calling me Trump using "The Donald" euphemism, which
is simply his childish way of attacking me since I've never said a good
word about any politician, let alone Trump.
My posts on Usenet are apolitical.
My point to you, Carlos, is why don't you lecture Chris?
Frank supported him because he too attacks in his childish ways.
You lectured me. Why don't you lecture them Carlos?
a. I'm writing the code proving the point. b. They're claiming I'm a
Trump supporter for doing so.
WTF?
What kind of person does that?
Chris and Frank are denying they did it, but they did it.
Chris repeatedly used the euphemism "Donald", so I was simply asking you
why don't you chastise him for bringing that up instead of chastising me
for writing code that proves Chris' claim wrong that it's hard to do?
From: Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router
for privacy/security
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 08:07:46 -0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <10hb9oi$1c6js$1@dont-email.me>
Frank supported Chris by insulting me and by insulting my own wife.
From: Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router
for privacy/security
Date: 10 Dec 2025 19:29:51 GMT
Message-ID: <10hcl7l.b3s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
You even directly responded to Chris' post Carlos:
From: "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router
for privacy/security
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 13:12:31 +0100
Message-ID: <f2pq0mx0bi.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In addition to lecturing me, why don't you also lecture Chris & Frank?--
Chris wrote:No, neither of them did that.
should treat him gently when he makes his absurd statements to
attack me.
-a Proving you wrong is not an attack.
It is to those
You and Frank both called me a "Trump supporter" because I care about
privacy and because I understand the power of a BSSID:GPS pairing.
Chris and Frank are denying they did it, but they did it.
Chris repeatedly used the euphemism "Donald", so I was simply asking you
why don't you chastise him for bringing that up instead of chastising me
for writing code that proves Chris' claim wrong that it's hard to do?
Mostly because I am trying to follow a conversation with you, not with them.
When you you said he was calling you a "Trump supporter" I did not
recognize that idea. I do have a remembrance of someone calling you
Donald, but not why. I was thinking of the Walt Disney character Donald
the duck. If you ask me what is the first name of Mr Trump, off hand I
don't know. So your claim of someone calling you a Trump supporter in
some past message did not ring a bell.]
His argument that he is not calling you a supporter has some feasibility.
You people calling names one another constantly distracts me.
follow those conversations. To many insults and I drop out, I ignore
those messages. If I am trying to follow a conversation and find too
many insults, I either grumble or switch off.
You may have noticed that I have agreed with several of your points,
then also to some of their arguments making modify some of my agreement.
I just do not want to be too much distracted with flying insults or
attacks on the persons instead of the ideas.
I did not reply to the paragraph with Donald in it.
Below are the message IDs which anyone can look up for Usenet messages.
<http://al.howardknight.net/>
Howard appeared busted today when I tried it.
I don't know if the owner has given up (lack of
resources for searches) or what the story is.
He had some sort of search capability with
the Google collection to help previously.
Carlos E.R. wrote:
What you don't comprehend (and you likely never will understand), is I
treat people EXACTLY like they treat me.
It's never me throwing the first punch.
You saw me respond to them. So you chastised me.
You people calling names one another constantly distracts me.
STOP THAT. JUST STOP IT.
Chastize THEM. Not me.
They threw the first punch.
Stop blaming the victim, Carlos.
Just stop it.
I'm not going to put up with your extreme bias against the victim.
Chastise them, Carlos.
Be fair.
I prove how insecure Apple's WPS database is, but I found that
Apple isn't following it's own published rules. And I wrote scripts to
prove it.
Why don't you chastise Frank & Chris for throwing all those insults?
You people calling names one another constantly distracts me. I don't
follow those conversations. To many insults and I drop out, I ignore
those messages. If I am trying to follow a conversation and find too
many insults, I either grumble or switch off.
Frank Slootweg wrote:
There is no such post. He's just emitting another series of straw men.
I didn't say what he claims and what I *did* say, I said in a different context. So zero points.
Frank is lying.
The proof Frank is lying is in his own post:
From: Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security
Date: 10 Dec 2025 19:29:51 GMT
Message-ID: <10hcl7l.b3s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
Both claim I'm a Trump supporter simply for caring about our privacy.
On 2025-12-15 20:23, Marian wrote:[...]
Frank supported Chris by insulting me and by insulting my own wife.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2From: Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security
Date: 10 Dec 2025 19:29:51 GMT
Message-ID: <10hcl7l.b3s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
On 2025-12-15 04:57, Paul wrote:[...]
You can use Offline Mode and sync the server content with your client, so the client has a copy of all the messages currently on the server.
Then when you search the group, you get a more realistic sample
of the message bodies and claims about what somebody said.
Fri, 11/17/2023 478,483,218 comp.lang.c <=== only created for offline mode (whole messages)
Thu, 10/05/2023 27 comp.lang.c.dat <=== (filter definitions)
Sat, 12/13/2025 50,425,664 comp.lang.c.msf <=== Mork Summary File (headers only)
I've only done this the one time, as a demo of the file sizes.
My Thunderbird is set to not cache the bodies of messages. As a
consequence, body search is greyed out or not in the list at all.
This is because I an using leafnode, an nntp proxy server. It stores
locally all messages, so thunderbird effectively gets a copy sent from
the local disk, fast.
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of
every message.
Why doesn't Carlos chastise them in addition to lecturing me on etiquette?
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-12-15 04:57, Paul wrote:[...]
You can use Offline Mode and sync the server content with your client, so >>> the client has a copy of all the messages currently on the server.
Then when you search the group, you get a more realistic sample
of the message bodies and claims about what somebody said.
Fri, 11/17/2023 478,483,218 comp.lang.c <=== only created for offline mode (whole messages)
Thu, 10/05/2023 27 comp.lang.c.dat <=== (filter definitions)
Sat, 12/13/2025 50,425,664 comp.lang.c.msf <=== Mork Summary File (headers only)
I've only done this the one time, as a demo of the file sizes.
My Thunderbird is set to not cache the bodies of messages. As a
consequence, body search is greyed out or not in the list at all.
This is because I an using leafnode, an nntp proxy server. It stores
locally all messages, so thunderbird effectively gets a copy sent from
the local disk, fast.
Hmm!? Strange! I assume Thunderbird can search IMAP servers/folders without local caching, so I would expect it to be able to do the same
with NNTP.
I use a similar setup as you, but on Windows instead of on Linux and
with Hamster instead of leafnode and with tin instead of Thunderbird.
With tin, I can do body searching both in locally cached (by Hamster) groups and in remote groups on the real news server (NIN, in my and your case).
So this seems a - somewhat strange - limitation in Thunderbird.
Setting TB to cache bodies would mean having two copies on my disk of
every message.
AFAICT, Paul meant this as a one time operation: Fetch *all* the
messages from the server, do your search and then dispose of the fetched messages. 'Even' :-) in Thunderbird, you could do that with an *extra*
News account - i.e. in addition to the one which you've already
configured in Thunderbird - and fetch all the messages directly from the server - i.e. not via leafnode - directly into Thunderbird's local
storage.
And Frank did not insult your wife, quite the contrary.
I find it very useful, especially in certain 'groups.
It is you who is interested in convincing us of a point.
And what I *did* say, has nothing to do with the 'reason your give
("simply for caring about our privacy").
Frank Slootweg wrote:
And what I *did* say, has nothing to do with the 'reason your give
("simply for caring about our privacy").
Frank Slootweg wrote:
And what I *did* say, has nothing to do with the 'reason your give
("simply for caring about our privacy").
Selective quoting, arguments snipped. You lose, as usual.
Clue-by-four: That you can't (read: don't want to) read for
comprehension, doesn't mean the adience can't.
Frank Slootweg wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:
And what I *did* say, has nothing to do with the 'reason your give
("simply for caring about our privacy").
Selective quoting, arguments snipped. You lose, as usual.
Clue-by-four: That you can't (read: don't want to) read for comprehension, doesn't mean the adience can't.
What you need to comprehend, Frank, are two very simple concepts:
1. Keep discussion of my wife out of your filthy mouth, and,
2. Stop trolling this newsgroup with your disgusting trolls.
I was not "discussing" your wife.
BSSID: 8c:85:80:d1:be:37
Latitude: 32.45985031
Longitude: -93.81759643000001
BSSID: 8e:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
Latitude: 32.4594841
Longitude: -93.8175888
BSSID: 92:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
Latitude: 32.4594841
Longitude: -93.81756591
BSSID: 92:95:51:b5:b6:ae
Latitude: 32.45910644
Longitude: -93.81759643000001
Marian wrote:
-a BSSID: 8c:85:80:d1:be:37
-a Latitude: 32.45985031
-a Longitude: -93.81759643000001
-a -a BSSID: 8e:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
-a Latitude: 32.4594841
-a Longitude: -93.8175888
-a -a BSSID: 92:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
-a Latitude: 32.4594841
-a Longitude: -93.81756591
-a -a BSSID: 92:95:51:b5:b6:ae
-a Latitude: 32.45910644
-a Longitude: -93.81759643000001
Does anyone have any idea why the highly insecure Apple WPS database
contains GPS entries to this illogically numerous set of decimal places?
On Thu, 12/18/2025 4:29 PM, Marian wrote:
Marian wrote:
-a BSSID: 8c:85:80:d1:be:37
-a Latitude: 32.45985031
-a Longitude: -93.81759643000001
-a -a BSSID: 8e:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
-a Latitude: 32.4594841
-a Longitude: -93.8175888
-a -a BSSID: 92:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
-a Latitude: 32.4594841
-a Longitude: -93.81756591
-a -a BSSID: 92:95:51:b5:b6:ae
-a Latitude: 32.45910644
-a Longitude: -93.81759643000001
Does anyone have any idea why the highly insecure Apple WPS database
contains GPS entries to this illogically numerous set of decimal places?
It's a lab accident. Beakers hair is on fire now.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/Beaker_%28Muppet%29-en.jpg
If the database does not sanitize inputs, a thing like that could happen. (Storing data as strings, not as numbers.)
If multiple BSSID reports with slightly varying GPS coords come in,
some sort of math could average the coordinates or so.
It's just as likely to be a not-representable-number problem, but
you would need to find a better "calc" to work on that aspect.
It really amounts to some sort of sloppy workmanship.
It really amounts to some sort of sloppy workmanship.
Correct. Which has been highlighted to Donald. The GPS coords are converted to floats thereby introducing imprecision and he reports them unrounded.
bssid.batEnter the BSSID: 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65
| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 54 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 14:06:05 |
| Calls: | 742 |
| Files: | 1,218 |
| D/L today: |
3 files (2,681K bytes) |
| Messages: | 183,841 |
| Posted today: | 1 |
