From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Well I have Debian >= Bullseye per https://gforth.org/ , but the latest bleeding edge gforth isn't satisfied.

buzz@mccool:~$ /usr/bin/gforth
/usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.39' not found (required by /usr/bin/gforth)
/usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.38' not found (required by /usr/bin/gforth)

buzz@mccool:~$ ls -la /usr/bin/gf*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 27 /usr/bin/gforth -> gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 382216 /usr/bin/gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64

buzz@mccool:~$ ldd --version
ldd (Debian GLIBC 2.36-9+deb12u10) 2.36

buzz@mccool:~/bin$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Debian
Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Release: 12
Codename: bookworm

Maybe gforth now wants the just released Debian 13 "trixie"?
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:

Well I have Debian >= Bullseye per https://gforth.org/ , but the latest bleeding edge gforth isn't satisfied.

buzz@mccool:~$ /usr/bin/gforth
/usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.39' not found (required by /usr/bin/gforth)
/usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.38' not found (required by /usr/bin/gforth)

buzz@mccool:~$ ls -la /usr/bin/gf*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 27 /usr/bin/gforth -> gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64 >-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 382216 /usr/bin/gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64

buzz@mccool:~$ ldd --version
ldd (Debian GLIBC 2.36-9+deb12u10) 2.36

buzz@mccool:~/bin$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Debian
Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Release: 12
Codename: bookworm

Maybe gforth now wants the just released Debian 13 "trixie"?

Probably. Bernd Paysan, who builds .debs now uses Debian 13 for
testing. Apparently also for building the .debs. I'll let him know
that this causes problems on older systems. In the meantime, my
recommendation is to build from the tarball (see https://gforth.org/).

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Am Wed, 27 Aug 2025 09:10:54 -0700 schrieb Buzz McCool:

Well I have Debian >= Bullseye per https://gforth.org/ , but the latest bleeding edge gforth isn't satisfied.

buzz@mccool:~$ /usr/bin/gforth /usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.39' not found
(required by /usr/bin/gforth)
/usr/bin/gforth: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.38'
not found (required by /usr/bin/gforth)

buzz@mccool:~$ ls -la /usr/bin/gf*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 27 /usr/bin/gforth ->
gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 382216 /usr/bin/gforth-0.7.9_20250817-amd64

buzz@mccool:~$ ldd --version ldd (Debian GLIBC 2.36-9+deb12u10) 2.36

buzz@mccool:~/bin$ lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Debian Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm) Release: 12 Codename: bookworm

Maybe gforth now wants the just released Debian 13 "trixie"?

Gforth's debian repository supports three distributions:

stable
oldstable
unstable, testing (two different names, same binaries)

If you used rCLstablerCY, because bookworm was stable, you need to either update to trixie (the now stable distribution) when it becomes stable OR
you change your gforth repository to oldstable, and stay with bookworm.

I don't build for oldoldstable, so bullseye is unsupported now.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o id: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
https://bernd-paysan.de/
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 28/08/2025 2:10 am, Buzz McCool wrote:

Well I have Debian >= Bullseye per https://gforth.org/ , but the latest bleeding edge gforth isn't satisfied.
...

Surely it's you that isn't satisfied. There hasn't been a Windows gforth release for five years. Neither maintainers nor users seem perturbed.
It may be gforth has reached the point of 'nothing new here' and all one
is seeing is tinkering at the edges. I call DX-Forth 'mature' rather than 'fossilized'. Fossilization is a prerequisite to standardisation :)

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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:

Surely it's you that isn't satisfied. There hasn't been a Windows gforth >release for five years. Neither maintainers nor users seem perturbed.

WSL has been available for 9 years, and WSL2 for more than 5 years.
You can run an existing Linux build of Gforth on WSL(2) on Windows, or
build Gforth on WSL(2) on Windows yourself.

The source code of Gforth is also available in various forms, so you
can build it on Windows yourself (Cygwin recommended). However, note
that this is a bumpy ride even with Cygwin. There is a reason why
Bernd Paysan has stopped producing gforth packages for Windows.

Last time I looked (quite long ago), the Windows package did not use
mmap() for allocating the stacks, and as a result, stack underflow
(and overflow) reporting was not as good as under WSL. Looking at the
current Cygwin documentation, mmap() and munmap() are supported and
claimed to be SUSv5-compliant <https://cygwin.com/cygwin-api/compatibility.html#std-susv5>. So if
anybody builds Gforth on Cygwin/Windows, they might find that this
feature works nowadays. Maybe it already works with the latest Gforth
build for Windows.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 8/27/2025 10:04 AM, Bernd Paysan wrote:

Gforth's debian repository supports three distributions:

stable
oldstable
unstable, testing (two different names, same binaries)

If you used rCLstablerCY, because bookworm was stable, you need to either update to trixie (the now stable distribution) when it becomes stable OR
you change your gforth repository to oldstable, and stay with bookworm.

I don't build for oldoldstable, so bullseye is unsupported now.

Thank you Bernd & Anton for the quick explanation and solution!


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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 8/27/2025 10:03 PM, dxf wrote:

... Fossilization is a prerequisite to standardisation :)

I did notice gforth is included with Debian 12 (bookworm), but not Debian 13 (trixie):
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/all/allpackages https://packages.debian.org/trixie/all/allpackages




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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:

I did notice gforth is included with Debian 12 (bookworm), but not Debian 13 (trixie):
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/all/allpackages >https://packages.debian.org/trixie/all/allpackages

What I read is that the package maintainer Peter Pentchev no longer
has time for maintaining the package, and nobody has picked it up.

Looking at other Forth systems in Debian, the yforth package is also
in Debian 12, but not in Debian 13. The maintainer is Bdale Garbee.

The pforth package, also maintained by Bdale Garbee, is included in
Debian 13.

Let's look at the numbers from <https://popcon.debian.org/>

Installed Vote Old Recent
244 46 190 8 gforth
48 5 41 2 pforth
18 0 18 0 yforth

Installed is the number of people who installed this package (sum of
the four categories below).
Vote is the number of people who use this package regularly.
Old is the number of people who installed, but do not use this package
regularly.
Recent is the number of people who upgraded this package recently.

More precisely, Vote means that a program provided or depending on the
package was used less than thirty days ago
<https://popcon.debian.org/FAQ>.

I am not sure if it is really a loss that Debian does not provide
gforth-0.7 for Debian 13. The Debian packages on Bookworm do not
include the documentation and explicitly disable dynamic native-code
generation by default (but then, with recent gccs, gforth-0.7's sanity
checking disables native-code generation anyway).

But once we release gforth-1.0 and Debian would work with that and
explicitly disable dynamic native-code generation, the speed
difference looks as follows (on a Zen4 machine, smaller is better):

sieve bubble matrix fib fft
0.020 0.020 0.011 0.029 0.014 gforth-fast
0.139 0.133 0.120 0.138 0.063 gforth-fast --no-dynamic

The removal of the documentation is probably a bigger problem for most
users, though.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 30/08/2025 1:35 am, Buzz McCool wrote:

On 8/27/2025 10:03 PM, dxf wrote:

... Fossilization is a prerequisite to standardisation :)

I did notice gforth is included with Debian 12 (bookworm), but not Debian 13 (trixie):
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/all/allpackages https://packages.debian.org/trixie/all/allpackages

Computers are a rat race one can't win and it makes little difference
which OS one uses. Behind all of them are 'do-gooders' pushing nirvana
that leaves one worse off than when one started. Community Forth has
been no exception.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

In article <2025Aug29.180908@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:

I did notice gforth is included with Debian 12 (bookworm), but not Debian 13 (trixie):
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/all/allpackages >>https://packages.debian.org/trixie/all/allpackages

What I read is that the package maintainer Peter Pentchev no longer
has time for maintaining the package, and nobody has picked it up.

Pentchev has the rank of Debian Developer.
It is hard to become a Debian developer, and they generally know
nothing about Forth and are not interested.
The term is orphaned. Everybody could volunteer to adopt the
package.
If you volunteer to be a maintainer for gforth, then at least you have
to get a sponsor who is a Debian Developer.

(I spent several years to get ciforth in the Debian distribution.
Got an official pgp identity to become a maintainer.
Got an officially deb distribution made that passed all tests.
My sponsor was not at all interested in Forth, and I decided
that was not a good situation. Never found a new sponsor for
the uploaded deb archive, it was removed after a certain period.
gforth should be easier because it is c-based and has part of Debian
for ages.)

Note that Pentchev should be following gforth, and has the task
to get more modern versions than 0.7.3 in Debian, in cooperation
with the gforth developers.

Looking at other Forth systems in Debian, the yforth package is also
in Debian 12, but not in Debian 13. The maintainer is Bdale Garbee.

The pforth package, also maintained by Bdale Garbee, is included in
Debian 13.

In my experience Bdale is a bit, say, unresponsive.
He did sign up for forth's along time ago and
he is given up now. Look at man pforth, Garbee has cobbled a
manpage together with the information from ``pforth -h''.
yforth is even more bland, and bdale uses the term "cobble".
That is the kind of involvement to expect.

[yforth crashes on my system, if I were Debian, I removed it a long
time ago.]

- anton

Groetjes Albert
--
The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
over 80 years, like Western Europe.
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:

Computers are a rat race one can't win and it makes little difference
which OS one uses. Behind all of them are 'do-gooders' pushing nirvana
that leaves one worse off than when one started. Community Forth has
been no exception.

"he who would keep himself clean amongst men,
must know how to wash himself even with dirty water."
Thus Spake Zarathustra
--
me
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