• Re: have we been misusing incompleteness???

    From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 13:32:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that
    there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be
    proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 14:53:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that
    there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be
    proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    An Montague grammer is out of scope here, as we are talking FORMAL
    langauges and system, not Natural Language,

    Something which seems beyound your ability to understand, since you brainwashed youself to not understand the basics of this.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 20:20:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 29/12/2025 19:53, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that
    there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be
    proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.

    Ontology suggests ways to *apply* a system. The system itself works
    without additional meaning just as it does with. That's the point of
    formal systems.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    additional meaning is given to an embedding or extension (which is
    pretty-much a special-case of embedding) of a system, not to the system
    itself.

    In the case of G||del's preamble, he defines an extension of PM (I should suppose he was using 2nd ed. in 1931 from his untruths about PM if
    applied to 1st. ed.) That extension is inconsistent (or, better, I
    think, indiscriminate). his referent there for PM slides between PM and
    the derived system as he writes and he gets muddled taking a half-formed conclusion about one, assuming and completing it for the other.

    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong, and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 15:38:44 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 1:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that
    there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be
    proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.


    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    can be expressed as relations between finite strings.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    An Montague grammer is out of scope here, as we are talking FORMAL
    langauges and system, not Natural Language,


    "We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability." (G||del 1931:39-41)

    By using an enormously convoluted process with
    G||del numbers hiding his actual claim:

    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    readers are simply conned into believing that
    G||del Incompleteness is coherent and true.

    Something which seems beyound your ability to understand, since you brainwashed youself to not understand the basics of this.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 18:06:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that >>>>>> there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be >>>>>> proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.


    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    can be expressed as relations between finite strings.

    Try to do that.



    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently
    expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    An Montague grammer is out of scope here, as we are talking FORMAL
    langauges and system, not Natural Language,


    "We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability." (G||del 1931:39-41)


    Right, it is a statement in the meta-theory, commenting on it
    unprovabiilty in the base theory.

    Context seems to elude you, because it requires understand.


    By using an enormously convoluted process with
    G||del numbers hiding his actual claim:



    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it.


    readers are simply conned into believing that
    G||del Incompleteness is coherent and true.

    Not conned, proven.

    You are just proving your inabilityh to understand the difference
    between Truth and Knowledge, because you can't understand about infinity,


    Something which seems beyound your ability to understand, since you
    brainwashed youself to not understand the basics of this.



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  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 17:28:26 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that >>>>>>> there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be >>>>>>> proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.


    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    can be expressed as relations between finite strings.

    Try to do that.



    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently
    expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    An Montague grammer is out of scope here, as we are talking FORMAL
    langauges and system, not Natural Language,


    "We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability." (G||del 1931:39-41)


    Right, it is a statement in the meta-theory, commenting on it
    unprovabiilty in the base theory.

    Context seems to elude you, because it requires understand.


    By using an enormously convoluted process with
    G||del numbers hiding his actual claim:



    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 22:51:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you are
    talking about and thus going into non-sense,

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite
    sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a FINITE sequence
    of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO.

    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 22:35:44 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite
    sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a FINITE sequence
    of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO.

    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 23:50:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it. >>>>

    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you are
    talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but apparently
    you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because you
    are so stupid.

    The statement, when looked at under the meaning that only exists in the meta-system, shows that in the meta-system there is a proof, a finite
    series of steps, that shows that in the system, the statement in the
    system does not have a proof, which is a finite series of steps IN THE
    SYSTEM (not the meta-system) but there is a infinite series of steps in
    the system that make it true.

    Thus, you show you can't tell the difference between an infinite series
    of steps from a finitee series of step, thus you IQ must be 0 by that scale.

    And, you can't tell the difference between the Meta-system and the
    system, which is like thinking your pet cat is a dog.

    The fact you keep on repeating this, and never try to answer the error
    pointed out just means that you can't understand what an error is,
    because to you truth, knowledge, fact, rules, don't mean anything
    because you chose to make your self just stupid and ignorant.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite
    sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an
    INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a
    FINITE sequence of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO.

    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.




    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 29 23:33:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base
    theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show it. >>>>>

    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you are
    talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but apparently
    you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because you
    are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    The statement, when looked at under the meaning that only exists in the meta-system, shows that in the meta-system there is a proof, a finite
    series of steps, that shows that in the system, the statement in the
    system does not have a proof, which is a finite series of steps IN THE SYSTEM (not the meta-system) but there is a infinite series of steps in
    the system that make it true.

    Thus, you show you can't tell the difference between an infinite series
    of steps from a finitee series of step, thus you IQ must be 0 by that
    scale.

    And, you can't tell the difference between the Meta-system and the
    system, which is like thinking your pet cat is a dog.

    The fact you keep on repeating this, and never try to answer the error pointed out just means that you can't understand what an error is,
    because to you truth, knowledge, fact, rules, don't mean anything
    because you chose to make your self just stupid and ignorant.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite
    sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an
    INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a
    FINITE sequence of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO.

    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.




    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 05:49:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms
    merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation
    and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools
    think they both /are/ those things.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 08:32:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms
    merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation
    and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools
    think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 09:32:38 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the base >>>>>> theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps to show >>>>>> it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you
    are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because you
    are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about its provability in the base system.

    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal Systems, and
    their meta-systems.

    The proof was NOT in the same system, but in a meta-system built from
    that system.

    It shows, via a finite proof in the meta-system, that there does exist a sequence of infinite length in the system to show the statement is true,
    but their can not be a finite length sequence in the system.

    All you are doing is proving you are to stupid to understand this, as
    you don't understand that two different systems ARE different systems,
    but meta-system can know details of their base system, and that there is
    a difference between infinite and finite. THis shows your intelegence to
    be near zero.


    The statement, when looked at under the meaning that only exists in
    the meta-system, shows that in the meta-system there is a proof, a
    finite series of steps, that shows that in the system, the statement
    in the system does not have a proof, which is a finite series of steps
    IN THE SYSTEM (not the meta-system) but there is a infinite series of
    steps in the system that make it true.

    Thus, you show you can't tell the difference between an infinite
    series of steps from a finitee series of step, thus you IQ must be 0
    by that scale.

    And, you can't tell the difference between the Meta-system and the
    system, which is like thinking your pet cat is a dog.

    The fact you keep on repeating this, and never try to answer the error
    pointed out just means that you can't understand what an error is,
    because to you truth, knowledge, fact, rules, don't mean anything
    because you chose to make your self just stupid and ignorant.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite
    sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an
    INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a
    FINITE sequence of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO.

    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.







    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 09:38:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms
    merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation
    and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools
    think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)

    That isn't the statement of G, so you start with a lie.


    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.


    But that statement you are trying to start with isn't a statement in F,
    but an interpretation of the statement in F as understood in MF.

    All you are doing is showing you stupidity of not understanding context.

    And thus you show you can't understand meaning, as meaning is based on context.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 08:52:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the
    base theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps >>>>>>> to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you
    are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because you
    are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about its provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal Systems, and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    Sentences that are semantically incoherent are not true.
    This is ignored because a meta level version of the same
    sentence can be made true on the basis of this incoherence.

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    The proof was NOT in the same system, but in a meta-system built from
    that system.


    To hide the fact of the incoherence as was shown above.

    It shows, via a finite proof in the meta-system, that there does exist a sequence of infinite length in the system to show the statement is true,
    but their can not be a finite length sequence in the system.

    All you are doing is proving you are to stupid to understand this, as

    The actual stupidity is how mathematicians believe that
    the foundations of math are inherently infallible as if
    they themselves are the actual mind of God.

    you don't understand that two different systems ARE different systems,
    but meta-system can know details of their base system, and that there is
    a difference between infinite and finite. THis shows your intelegence to
    be near zero.


    The statement, when looked at under the meaning that only exists in
    the meta-system, shows that in the meta-system there is a proof, a
    finite series of steps, that shows that in the system, the statement
    in the system does not have a proof, which is a finite series of
    steps IN THE SYSTEM (not the meta-system) but there is a infinite
    series of steps in the system that make it true.

    Thus, you show you can't tell the difference between an infinite
    series of steps from a finitee series of step, thus you IQ must be 0
    by that scale.

    And, you can't tell the difference between the Meta-system and the
    system, which is like thinking your pet cat is a dog.

    The fact you keep on repeating this, and never try to answer the
    error pointed out just means that you can't understand what an error
    is, because to you truth, knowledge, fact, rules, don't mean anything
    because you chose to make your self just stupid and ignorant.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a finite >>>>> sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there is an
    INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is not a
    FINITE sequence of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO. >>>>>
    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.







    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 09:10:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 8:38 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms
    merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation
    and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools
    think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)

    That isn't the statement of G, so you start with a lie.


    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.



    (F re4 G)
    "re4" means that a sequence of inference steps from
    F to G do not exist.

    But that statement you are trying to start with isn't a statement in F,

    Since is begins with F it is in F.
    That people do not usually look at this degree
    of detail do not mean that I am incorrect.

    but an interpretation of the statement in F as understood in MF.

    All you are doing is showing you stupidity of not understanding context.


    All the I am doing is looking at these things at
    the deeper level beyond indoctrination. I am directly
    examining the foundations of logic and math.

    Everyone else takes these as "given" as if from
    the mind of God.

    And thus you show you can't understand meaning, as meaning is based on context.


    I understand meaning better then anyone else.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    for this entire body is one giant semantic tautology.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 10:14:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the >>>>>>>> base theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps >>>>>>>> to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you >>>>>> are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because
    you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about its
    provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal Systems,
    and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Sentences that are semantically incoherent are not true.
    This is ignored because a meta level version of the same
    sentence can be made true on the basis of this incoherence.

    But that isn't the case for G, unless you think arithmatic is
    semantically incoherent.

    But then, I think that *IS* the case for you.


    G := (F re4 G)

    Which isn't G in F, so your arguement fails.

    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    The proof was NOT in the same system, but in a meta-system built from
    that system.


    To hide the fact of the incoherence as was shown above.

    Which says you don't know what that means.

    All you have done is prove that to you, LOGIC is just incoherent because
    you don't understand it.


    It shows, via a finite proof in the meta-system, that there does exist
    a sequence of infinite length in the system to show the statement is
    true, but their can not be a finite length sequence in the system.

    All you are doing is proving you are to stupid to understand this, as

    The actual stupidity is how mathematicians believe that
    the foundations of math are inherently infallible as if
    they themselves are the actual mind of God.

    So, you think mathematics DOESN'T work?

    Can you show an actual FLAW in mathematics, or it is just that anything
    too complicated for you must be wrong because YOU think YOU are God?

    Note, that in a formal system, the axiomatic base and the logical
    deductions it allows IS sort of like "God" to the system, as it is what creates it and controls it, and that is a key feature of God, he is the Creater and Controller of the system.

    Since you have shown you can not actually create a working system, or
    control one with coherent thoughts, you show you are not actually very
    much in the image of God, but have lost that as you turned to your lies.

    All you are doing is showing your stupidity, and that you whole basis is
    a rejection of that which you don't understand instead of seeking to understand it, as you are stuck in your lies.


    you don't understand that two different systems ARE different systems,
    but meta-system can know details of their base system, and that there
    is a difference between infinite and finite. THis shows your
    intelegence to be near zero.


    The statement, when looked at under the meaning that only exists in
    the meta-system, shows that in the meta-system there is a proof, a
    finite series of steps, that shows that in the system, the statement
    in the system does not have a proof, which is a finite series of
    steps IN THE SYSTEM (not the meta-system) but there is a infinite
    series of steps in the system that make it true.

    Thus, you show you can't tell the difference between an infinite
    series of steps from a finitee series of step, thus you IQ must be 0
    by that scale.

    And, you can't tell the difference between the Meta-system and the
    system, which is like thinking your pet cat is a dog.

    The fact you keep on repeating this, and never try to answer the
    error pointed out just means that you can't understand what an error
    is, because to you truth, knowledge, fact, rules, don't mean
    anything because you chose to make your self just stupid and ignorant. >>>>

    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems

    As I said, and you were too stupid to understand, there is a
    finite sequence of steps in the META systen that show that there
    is an INFINITE sequence of steps in the system that show there is >>>>>> not a FINITE sequence of steps in the system to prove it.

    It seems to you, infinity is finite, and thus your mind is just ZERO. >>>>>>
    Of course, you never let facts get in the way of your stupidity.










    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 10:15:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the >>>>>>>>> base theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference steps >>>>>>>>> to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what you >>>>>>> are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because
    you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about its
    provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal Systems,
    and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    The proper treatment is to toss these sentences out as
    incoherent. The proper treatment is not to create a
    meta-level that simply ignores this incoherence.

    Tarski's metatheory Tarski's theory
    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true

    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    In meta-F In F
    This sentence cannot be proven: "This sentence cannot be proven" is true

    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 13:57:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 11:15 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the >>>>>>>>>> base theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference >>>>>>>>>> steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what >>>>>>>> you are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because >>>>>> you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about its
    provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal Systems,
    and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    And what is incoherent about using a meta-level.

    All a mete-level is, is to build a new Formal System, based on the base
    system that knows the basic properties of the base system.

    For instance, the Rational Numbers can be considers a "meta" of the
    Integeres.


    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    No, the sentence of G was specifically constructed to have a coherent
    meaning in the base system, but you just are too stupid to understand that.

    THe statment G, in the base system, as well as in the meta system is the
    claim that there exists no natural number g that satisifies a particular mathematical property expresses as a primative recursive relationship.

    The mathematics of that is fully coherent in the base system, and WILL
    have an answer of either yes or no, even if that system might not be
    able to compute that answer.

    In the meta-system, because of how the relationship was created, we see
    that in adds meaning from the base system into numbers that inherently
    only mean themselves. Just like we can form words with meaning from
    letters that have no inherent meaning.

    It seems you don't even understand how "meaning" works, so your core is
    based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what you talk about.


    The proper treatment is to toss these sentences out as
    incoherent. The proper treatment is not to create a
    meta-level that simply ignores this incoherence.

    But they aren't.

    I guess to you, mathematics is just incoherent, and logic has to be kept primative.

    In other words, you are just too stupid to be in the field.


    Tarski's metatheory-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Tarski's theory
    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true

    You just don't understand what Tarski is saying, as his proof build on
    the concept that Godel uses, and Tarski shows that if we assume the
    existance of a predicate "True" that will return True if its input
    sentance is actually True, but False otherwise (either the contradiction
    of the sentence is true, so it is false, or the sentence doesn't have a
    truth value) then by the same "math" Godel uses, we can prove that the
    liar must have a truth value.


    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    Right, so by the proof, "True" as a predicate can't exist.



    In meta-F-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a In F
    This sentence cannot be proven: "This sentence cannot be proven" is true

    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.



    And all you are doing is proving your ignornce of how logic works, since
    none of the system you are talking about can be modeled by Prolog.

    Of course, YOU can't handle systems that can't be handled by Prolog as
    you are just too stupid.


    I will note again, the fact that you just refuse to even try to address
    any of the points, but just keep repeating your wrong opinion that it
    can't be right shows that inside, you understand you have no grounds for
    your claims, and accept that you argument is baseless, but you still
    just repeat it.

    If you wanted to try to actually show an error in what I say, you would actually address my words and try to show an error, but that would
    require you showing an understand of the field that you just don't have,
    and would force you to reveal that you really have nothing to base your
    claims on.

    I note that everything you say is based on your own (ignorant)
    understanding of how logic works and you can't actually get to the meet
    of any source to back you up.

    At best, you look at minor offhand high level explainations that you mis-interprete.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 13:01:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 12:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 11:15 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in the >>>>>>>>>>> base theory that shows that no FINITE string of inference >>>>>>>>>>> steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed".

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what >>>>>>>>> you are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41) >>>>>>>
    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, because >>>>>>> you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about
    its provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal
    Systems, and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    And what is incoherent about using a meta-level.

    All a mete-level is, is to build a new Formal System, based on the base system that knows the basic properties of the base system.

    For instance, the Rational Numbers can be considers a "meta" of the Integeres.


    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    No, the sentence of G was specifically constructed to have a coherent meaning in the base system, but you just are too stupid to understand that.


    Why do you lie about this? Does lying give you cheap thrill?

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica And
    Related Systems


    THe statment G, in the base system, as well as in the meta system is the claim that there exists no natural number g that satisifies a particular mathematical property expresses as a primative recursive relationship.

    The mathematics of that is fully coherent in the base system, and WILL
    have an answer of either yes or no, even if that system might not be
    able to compute that answer.

    In the meta-system, because of how the relationship was created, we see
    that in adds meaning from the base system into numbers that inherently
    only mean themselves. Just like we can form words with meaning from
    letters that have no inherent meaning.

    It seems you don't even understand how "meaning" works, so your core is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what you talk about.


    The proper treatment is to toss these sentences out as
    incoherent. The proper treatment is not to create a
    meta-level that simply ignores this incoherence.

    But they aren't.

    I guess to you, mathematics is just incoherent, and logic has to be kept primative.

    In other words, you are just too stupid to be in the field.


    Tarski's metatheory-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Tarski's theory
    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true" is true

    You just don't understand what Tarski is saying, as his proof build on
    the concept that Godel uses, and Tarski shows that if we assume the existance of a predicate "True" that will return True if its input
    sentance is actually True, but False otherwise (either the contradiction
    of the sentence is true, so it is false, or the sentence doesn't have a truth value) then by the same "math" Godel uses, we can prove that the
    liar must have a truth value.


    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    Right, so by the proof, "True" as a predicate can't exist.



    In meta-F-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a In F
    This sentence cannot be proven: "This sentence cannot be proven" is true

    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.



    And all you are doing is proving your ignornce of how logic works, since none of the system you are talking about can be modeled by Prolog.

    Of course, YOU can't handle systems that can't be handled by Prolog as
    you are just too stupid.


    I will note again, the fact that you just refuse to even try to address
    any of the points, but just keep repeating your wrong opinion that it
    can't be right shows that inside, you understand you have no grounds for your claims, and accept that you argument is baseless, but you still
    just repeat it.

    If you wanted to try to actually show an error in what I say, you would actually address my words and try to show an error, but that would
    require you showing an understand of the field that you just don't have,
    and would force you to reveal that you really have nothing to base your claims on.

    I note that everything you say is based on your own (ignorant)
    understanding of how logic works and you can't actually get to the meet
    of any source to back you up.

    At best, you look at minor offhand high level explainations that you mis-interprete.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 14:04:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:38 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms >>>> merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation >>>> and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools
    think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)

    That isn't the statement of G, so you start with a lie.


    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.



    (F re4 G)
    "re4" means that a sequence of inference steps from
    F to G do not exist.

    Right, and there is, it is just an infinite sequence of steps.

    Your problem (which you seem to be too stupid to understand by words) is
    that this is NOT the definition of G, but an INTERPRETATION of that G
    under the light of new definitions established in the Meta System.


    But that statement you are trying to start with isn't a statement in F,

    Since is begins with F it is in F.
    That people do not usually look at this degree
    of detail do not mean that I am incorrect.

    Nope, I guess you don't think that one system can talk of other systems.

    I guess you don't understand how logic works at all.


    but an interpretation of the statement in F as understood in MF.

    All you are doing is showing you stupidity of not understanding context.


    All the I am doing is looking at these things at
    the deeper level beyond indoctrination. I am directly
    examining the foundations of logic and math.

    MNo, you are looking at things through a broken lens of lies.


    Everyone else takes these as "given" as if from
    the mind of God.

    But in a sense, they are.

    "God" is the creater and control of things.

    In a Formal System, the Axioms and rules FORM that system, and
    everything in it comes out of that.

    Thus, the system, in a very real sense, has a Creator, and thus a "God"


    And thus you show you can't understand meaning, as meaning is based on
    context.


    I understand meaning better then anyone else.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    for this entire body is one giant semantic tautology.


    Nope, the problem is yout THINK you do, and thus have made yourself
    stupid and incapable of learning. Becoming the perfect example of Dunning-Kruger.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 13:08:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 1:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:38 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The axioms >>>>> merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not negation >>>>> and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools >>>>> think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)

    That isn't the statement of G, so you start with a lie.


    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.



    (F re4 G)
    "re4" means that a sequence of inference steps from
    F to G do not exist.

    Right, and there is, it is just an infinite sequence of steps.


    You are stupidly saying that something that does not exist
    at all infinitely exists.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 14:10:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 2:01 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 12:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 11:15 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in >>>>>>>>>>>> the base theory that shows that no FINITE string of
    inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed". >>>>>>>>>>>
    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what >>>>>>>>>> you are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41) >>>>>>>>
    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but
    apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context,
    because you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about
    its provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal
    Systems, and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    And what is incoherent about using a meta-level.

    All a mete-level is, is to build a new Formal System, based on the
    base system that knows the basic properties of the base system.

    For instance, the Rational Numbers can be considers a "meta" of the
    Integeres.


    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    No, the sentence of G was specifically constructed to have a coherent
    meaning in the base system, but you just are too stupid to understand
    that.


    Why do you lie about this? Does lying give you cheap thrill?

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And where does this say that is what the sentence is in the base system?

    Why do YOU LIE? BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST STUPID.

    Read the paper, see what the statement ACTUALLY IS.

    It is a mathematical expression you probably have no idea what it means,
    so you just skip over it. That is the power of stupidity.

    Note, this sentence talks about the INTERPRETAION of the original
    sentence (in the base language) when seen in the light of the additional meaning added by the meta system.

    It seems you don't know what you are talking about, and just refuse to
    learn.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica And
    Related Systems

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 13:13:10 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 1:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 2:01 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 12:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 11:15 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the base theory that shows that no FINITE string of >>>>>>>>>>>>> inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed". >>>>>>>>>>>>
    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know what >>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about and thus going into non-sense,


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41) >>>>>>>>>
    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but >>>>>>>>> apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context,
    because you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about >>>>>>> its provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you.


    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal
    Systems, and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk
    about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    And what is incoherent about using a meta-level.

    All a mete-level is, is to build a new Formal System, based on the
    base system that knows the basic properties of the base system.

    For instance, the Rational Numbers can be considers a "meta" of the
    Integeres.


    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    No, the sentence of G was specifically constructed to have a coherent
    meaning in the base system, but you just are too stupid to understand
    that.


    Why do you lie about this? Does lying give you cheap thrill?

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which asserts its
    own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And where does this say that is what the sentence is in the base system?


    That <is> the summation of his whole proof dip shit.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 14:14:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 2:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 1:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:38 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 11:49 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 04:35, olcott wrote:

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    No they don't. That's an interpretation outside the system. The
    axioms
    merely force you to conclude that some symbol or other is not
    negation
    and/or another one is not a reference to the system itself when fools >>>>>> think they both /are/ those things.



    G := (F re4 G)

    That isn't the statement of G, so you start with a lie.


    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.



    (F re4 G)
    "re4" means that a sequence of inference steps from
    F to G do not exist.

    Right, and there is, it is just an infinite sequence of steps.


    You are stupidly saying that something that does not exist
    at all infinitely exists.


    ????

    What doesn't exist:
    A finite sequence in F

    What does exist:
    An infinite sequence if F, and
    A finite sequence in Meta

    Thus, your claim LIES by comparing the finite sequence to the infinte sequence, or sequences in different systems with different rules.

    So, either finite == infinite or F == M by your logic,

    Both are LIES, so you are just a LIAR.

    And a stupid one at that as I have lost track of how many times it has
    been explained to you, and you have shown an inability to learn it.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 14:26:26 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 2:13 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 1:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 2:01 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 12:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 11:15 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 9:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 8:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 12:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 10:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 5:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 4:38 PM, olcott wrote:


    There exists a sequence of inference steps from
    the axioms of a formal system that prove that
    they themselves do not exist.

    Right, there is an INFININTE string of inference steps in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the base theory that shows that no FINITE string of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inference steps to show it.


    Rene Descartes said: "I think therefore I never existed". >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    There is no sequence of inference steps that
    prove they themselves do not exist.

    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.
    That is all that G||del ever proved.



    In other words, you are just showing that you don't know >>>>>>>>>>>> what you are talking about and thus going into non-sense, >>>>>>>>>>>>

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41) >>>>>>>>>>
    Yes, you have said this before, and I have explained it, but >>>>>>>>>> apparently you can't read.


    Correctly paraphrased as:
    a sequence of inference steps from axioms
    that assert that they themselves do not exist.

    Nope, as I have pointed out, you have missed the context, >>>>>>>>>> because you are so stupid.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.

    a proposition who has a meaning in the meta-system talking about >>>>>>>> its provability in the base system.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.


    You just ignore context as that is just to complicated for you. >>>>>>>>

    I focus on the details that everyone else has been
    indoctrinated to ignore.


    The proof of such an propostion within the same
    formal system would require a sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Which just shows you don't understand the concept of Formal
    Systems, and their meta-systems.


    This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true"
    the outer sentence is true because the inner sentence
    is semantically incoherent.

    In other words, you can't talk about the sentence you want to talk >>>>>> about, so you do to soething irrelevent.


    Exactly the opposite Incompleteness and Undefinability
    dishonestly dodge the fact the their actual sentences
    are incoherent by using the meta-level.

    And what is incoherent about using a meta-level.

    All a mete-level is, is to build a new Formal System, based on the
    base system that knows the basic properties of the base system.

    For instance, the Rational Numbers can be considers a "meta" of the
    Integeres.


    This meta-level is correct to state that these sentences
    are not provable and not true.

    The meta-level never looks at why they are unprovable
    and untrue. They are unprovable and untrue BECAUSE they
    are semantically incoherent.

    No, the sentence of G was specifically constructed to have a
    coherent meaning in the base system, but you just are too stupid to
    understand that.


    Why do you lie about this? Does lying give you cheap thrill?

    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which asserts its
    own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And where does this say that is what the sentence is in the base system?


    That <is> the summation of his whole proof dip shit.




    In may be a "summation", but doesn't show an error.

    Your problem is you just don't understand what you are talking about
    since you chose to make yourself ignorant.

    You are just as bad as the flat-earthers, but at least they TRY to use
    real logic,
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 20:22:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition
    is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.

    You rely on the delusion that the internal sensation of defining a
    symbol actually has that effect on your mindspace and also on the
    continued hallucination that the symbol is then stably so defined when
    you later introspect your mind-space.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 14:35:29 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition
    is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    You rely on the delusion that the internal sensation of defining a
    symbol actually has that effect on your mindspace and also on the
    continued hallucination that the symbol is then stably so defined when
    you later introspect your mind-space.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 15:59:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 3:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition
    is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    But it doesn't, as it is satisfiable by a statement that is true but unprovable, which just mean the statement is established true by an
    infinite chain of infernce, but there is no finite chain of inference
    that establishes it.

    Yes, it can also be satisfied by making the statement not have a truth
    value, so we have two options.

    Your problem is that since that WASN'T the actual statement of G, but
    just an interpreation of it, and the ACTUAL statement for G must have a
    truth value, as it is asking about the existance of a number with a
    computable property, we can show that the non-truth-bearing option must
    be incorrect.

    Of course, when you only think things half way, you can try to argue otherwise, but that just shows your ignornace.

    You only reject the fact that it can be statisifed by a true statement
    that can't be proven, because you don't want such a thing to exist. But
    they do, at least if you allow mathematics to exist.

    So, unless you want to insist that civilization regress back to
    primative times without higher logic, you are just living a lie.

    Your "world" is built on the lie that we can know all truths, when the
    world is actually more complicated than that, which just breaks you ideas.


    You rely on the delusion that the internal sensation of defining a
    symbol actually has that effect on your mindspace and also on the
    continued hallucination that the symbol is then stably so defined when
    you later introspect your mind-space.




    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 21:26:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 30/12/2025 20:35, olcott wrote:

    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    Not per-Se. Formally, it depends on the full nature of the system
    they're in.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 21:34:18 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 30/12/2025 20:59, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 3:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition
    is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    But it doesn't, as it is satisfiable by a statement that is true but unprovable, which just mean the statement is established true by an
    infinite chain of infernce

    Are you using a finite derivation in the meta-system of the limit of a converging sequence of finite derivations of increasing length (whose
    terminals may or may not be the statement being proved but the limit of
    whose terminals /is/)?

    And thus you say the statement is true thereby exemplifying a point from
    which we may inductively infer a meaning for "true"? Is that "true of
    the system in the meta-system" ?
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 15:39:36 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 3:26 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 20:35, olcott wrote:

    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    Not per-Se. Formally, it depends on the full nature of the system
    they're in.


    Sure and we could define a "black cat" as a
    {fifteen story office building eating a sandwich}

    Within the pure semantics of the actual underlying
    meanings any expression of language that means:

    {a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F}

    is semantically incoherent.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 15:41:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/2025 3:34 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 20:59, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 3:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition >>>> is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    But it doesn't, as it is satisfiable by a statement that is true but
    unprovable, which just mean the statement is established true by an
    infinite chain of infernce

    Are you using a finite derivation in the meta-system of the limit of a converging sequence of finite derivations of increasing length (whose terminals may or may not be the statement being proved but the limit of
    whose terminals /is/)?

    And thus you say the statement is true thereby exemplifying a point from which we may inductively infer a meaning for "true"? Is that "true of
    the system in the meta-system" ?


    True in the system can only really mean provable
    from the axioms of this same system any other
    meaning is nonsense.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 16:47:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 4:41 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 3:34 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 20:59, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 3:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that
    supposition
    is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    But it doesn't, as it is satisfiable by a statement that is true but
    unprovable, which just mean the statement is established true by an
    infinite chain of infernce

    Are you using a finite derivation in the meta-system of the limit of a
    converging sequence of finite derivations of increasing length (whose
    terminals may or may not be the statement being proved but the limit of
    whose terminals /is/)?

    And thus you say the statement is true thereby exemplifying a point from
    which we may inductively infer a meaning for "true"? Is that "true of
    the system in the meta-system" ?


    True in the system can only really mean provable
    from the axioms of this same system any other
    meaning is nonsense.


    True doesn't need to be PROVEN, only ESTABLISHED

    True in the system F *IS* established as it is just a fact that no
    number will satisfy the relationship, which can be established by
    testing all of that countably infinite set.

    We happen to be able to prove in the meta-system that all numbers will
    fail to meet the relationship. In the system we just need to test that
    whole infinite set, so the testing arguemnt isn't a proof, but does
    establish the fact.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 16:53:44 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 4:34 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 20:59, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/30/25 3:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 2:22 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 14:32, olcott wrote:

    G := (F re4 G)
    a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    of F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F.

    You suppose that's what the symbols mean. Yet you know that supposition >>>> is inadmissible per-Se. Cognitive dissonance in action.


    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    But it doesn't, as it is satisfiable by a statement that is true but
    unprovable, which just mean the statement is established true by an
    infinite chain of infernce

    Are you using a finite derivation in the meta-system of the limit of a converging sequence of finite derivations of increasing length (whose terminals may or may not be the statement being proved but the limit of
    whose terminals /is/)?

    And thus you say the statement is true thereby exemplifying a point from which we may inductively infer a meaning for "true"? Is that "true of
    the system in the meta-system" ?


    The fact that it is true in the meta system comes out of the interpretation

    We KNOW, from the basic nature of the statement G, that it is asseeting
    the non-existance of a number meeting a computable relationship that it
    must have a truth value, as either such a number exists or not.

    From the interpretation in the meta, we know that if a number exists
    that stisfies the relationship, from such a number we can create a proof
    that no number can exist that satisfies that relationship, there by
    given the comment he makes that we have a statement that asserts its one unprobability. That is the "meaning" of any number that statisfies the relationship, and thus such a number can not exist.

    Since such a number can not exist, that proves (in the meta system) that
    the original statement was true.

    It also allows us to look into the base system, and thus say that in the
    base system, we can show that every number will just fail the
    relationship, and thus we can show an (infinite) sequence of steps in
    the base system that establishes the truth of the statement in the system.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 30 16:56:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/30/25 4:39 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/30/2025 3:26 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 30/12/2025 20:35, olcott wrote:

    The symbols *mean* a self-contradictory expression of language
    the same sort of thing as: "this sentence is not true".

    Not per-Se. Formally, it depends on the full nature of the system
    they're in.


    Sure and we could define a "black cat" as a
    {fifteen story office building eating a sandwich}

    Sure, just can't do that in a system that already defines those other
    terms differently.

    It may be that is such a system, you just can't have black cats.


    Within the pure semantics of the actual underlying
    meanings any expression of language that means:

    {a sequence of inference steps in F from the axioms
    -aof F that assert that they themselves do not exist in F}

    is semantically incoherent.


    But that isn't what the statement means, as you lost the context of
    where each sequence is in, and what steps are allowed in the sequence.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From pa@pa@see.signature.invalid (Pierre Asselin) to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 21:16:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled, leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G%del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G%del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G%del.
    --
    pa at panix dot com
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 16:21:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/25 3:20 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 19:53, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that >>>>>> there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be >>>>>> proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.

    Ontology suggests ways to *apply* a system. The system itself works
    without additional meaning just as it does with. That's the point of
    formal systems.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently
    expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    additional meaning is given to an embedding or extension (which is pretty-much a special-case of embedding) of a system, not to the system itself.

    In the case of G||del's preamble, he defines an extension of PM (I should suppose he was using 2nd ed. in 1931 from his untruths about PM if
    applied to 1st. ed.) That extension is inconsistent (or, better, I
    think, indiscriminate). his referent there for PM slides between PM and
    the derived system as he writes and he gets muddled taking a half-formed conclusion about one, assuming and completing it for the other.

    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled, leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong, and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.


    I would suggest, if you find an actual ERROR in what he said, that you
    can prove, you write a paper and publish it to make a name for yourself.

    Of course, if you show that your error is you don't actually understand
    what you claim to be talking about, you will make the fool of yourself.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 15:52:46 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 16:56:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled, >>> leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.

    He also proves there *IS* an infinite sequence of steps


    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And proofs are finite.

    And that statement is made in the Meta System, and is talking about the
    base system.

    All you are doing is proving that you are an idiot, and maybe in your
    case there isn't a difference between You and a deterministic machine,
    as you are stuck in your bad programming.

    It seems you hae a broken CPU.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 15:57:58 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/29/2025 2:20 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 19:53, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that >>>>>> there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be >>>>>> proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.

    Ontology suggests ways to *apply* a system. The system itself works
    without additional meaning just as it does with. That's the point of
    formal systems.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently
    expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    additional meaning is given to an embedding or extension (which is pretty-much a special-case of embedding) of a system, not to the system itself.

    In the case of G||del's preamble, he defines an extension of PM (I should suppose he was using 2nd ed. in 1931 from his untruths about PM if
    applied to 1st. ed.) That extension is inconsistent (or, better, I
    think, indiscriminate). his referent there for PM slides between PM and
    the derived system as he writes and he gets muddled taking a half-formed conclusion about one, assuming and completing it for the other.

    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled, leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong, and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 15:59:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more
    muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    He also proves there *IS* an infinite sequence of steps


    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And proofs are finite.

    And that statement is made in the Meta System, and is talking about the
    base system.

    All you are doing is proving that you are an idiot, and maybe in your
    case there isn't a difference between You and a deterministic machine,
    as you are stuck in your bad programming.

    It seems you hae a broken CPU.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems



    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 17:01:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 4:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 2:20 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 19:53, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/29/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/29/2025 1:21 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
    On 29/12/2025 13:37, Richard Damon wrote:

    Incompleteness is a property of a given Formal System, it says that >>>>>>> there exist a statement that is true in that system, but can not be >>>>>>> proven in that system.

    What do you mean by "proven" here. Do you mean "derived" ?

    I think Richard misspoke slightly. The undecidable statement is
    true *in the intended interpretation* of the formal system
    (In Goedel's case, the natural numbers with addition and
    multiplication).

    Truth "in the formal system" isn't really defined. You need an
    interpretation.


    Unless (as I have been saying for at least a decade)
    the formal language directly encodes all of its
    semantics directly in its syntax. The Montague
    Grammar of natural language semantics is the best
    known example of this.


    But it can't, as any system that defines symbols, can have something
    outside it assign additional meaning to those symbols.

    Ontology suggests ways to *apply* a system. The system itself works
    without additional meaning just as it does with. That's the point of
    formal systems.

    There may be SOME meaning within the system, but, with a sufficiently
    expressive system, additional meaning can be imposed.

    additional meaning is given to an embedding or extension (which is
    pretty-much a special-case of embedding) of a system, not to the system
    itself.

    In the case of G||del's preamble, he defines an extension of PM (I should
    suppose he was using 2nd ed. in 1931 from his untruths about PM if
    applied to 1st. ed.) That extension is inconsistent (or, better, I
    think, indiscriminate). his referent there for PM slides between PM and
    the derived system as he writes and he gets muddled taking a half-formed
    conclusion about one, assuming and completing it for the other.

    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong, and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence, as that is what a proof is.

    He also proved the existance of the INFINITE sequence that made the
    statement true.


    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    Which you don't understand,

    This is an interpreation of the statement in the meta system that is
    talking about its provability in the base system.

    So yes, the statement is TRUE and unprovable.

    If it was FALSE, then that says we can prove a false statement to be
    true, which is just a contradiction.

    Of course, you are just showing your stupidity and inability to
    understand things,

    It sounds like you have burnt out your CPU and lost the ability to
    think, and are stuck in a trap loop.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 17:09:17 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more
    muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to >>>>> get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves (by
    a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.

    Because, the statement is just a statement of arithmatic in the base
    system, that means it is also must be true in the base system.

    A result of the statement being true, it shows (with its interpreation
    in the meta system) that there can not be a proof in the base system for it,

    So, all you are doing is saying you can't tell the difference between different system and think they are all the same.

    That is like saying your cat can be a dog.

    You really are THAT stupid.

    So
    G + Meta proves G
    G without Meta can't prove G

    No contradiction, as Meta provides the information that allows the proof
    to be formed.


    He also proves there *IS* an infinite sequence of steps


    He admitted this himself:
    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition
    which asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    And proofs are finite.

    And that statement is made in the Meta System, and is talking about
    the base system.

    All you are doing is proving that you are an idiot, and maybe in your
    case there isn't a difference between You and a deterministic machine,
    as you are stuck in your bad programming.

    It seems you hae a broken CPU.


    G||del, Kurt 1931.
    On Formally Undecidable Propositions of
    Principia Mathematica And Related Systems






    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 16:42:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more
    muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to >>>>>> get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves (by
    a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 17:48:36 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more >>>>>>> muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too
    easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves
    (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?

    Can you even put my explaination imto your own words to show that you understand it.

    The statement G, under the interpreation provided by M certainly can
    prove that the system without M can't prove it.

    It seems you think that X is as big as X+1

    Sorry, you are just showing that you brain has self-distructed itself
    and left you with no ability to reason.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 17:08:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more >>>>>>>> muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too >>>>>>>> easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever >>>>>>> lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments. >>>>>>> I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves
    (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    If you disagree then provide a correct
    proof that you yourself never existed.

    If you can't see how this is impossible
    you must by very dumb.

    Since you have proved that you are quite
    smart then any disagreement would most
    likely be a lie, a mere head game.

    Can you even put my explaination imto your own words to show that you understand it.

    The statement G, under the interpreation provided by M certainly can
    prove that the system without M can't prove it.

    It seems you think that X is as big as X+1

    Sorry, you are just showing that you brain has self-distructed itself
    and left you with no ability to reason.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 18:27:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more >>>>>>>>> muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too >>>>>>>>> easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever >>>>>>>> lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments. >>>>>>>> I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves
    (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    If you disagree then provide a correct
    proof that you yourself never existed.

    Not the same.

    You are ignoring the effect of different context.

    And, since I exist, I can't prove a false statement that I don't exist.

    Also, G isn't the proof, it is the thing being proven or not.


    If you can't see how this is impossible
    you must by very dumb.

    Your arguement is just stupid, and invalid.

    Showing that likely you are both STUPID yourself, and a liar.


    Since you have proved that you are quite
    smart then any disagreement would most
    likely be a lie, a mere head game.

    Why? How is it a lie to disagree with a falsehood?

    You just continue to prove that you are nothing but a totally ignorant pathological liar that just doesn't understand logic, but doesn't care.


    Can you even put my explaination imto your own words to show that you
    understand it.

    The statement G, under the interpreation provided by M certainly can
    prove that the system without M can't prove it.

    It seems you think that X is as big as X+1

    Sorry, you are just showing that you brain has self-distructed itself
    and left you with no ability to reason.



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 18:23:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even >>>>>>>>>> more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too >>>>>>>>>> easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever >>>>>>>>> lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments. >>>>>>>>> I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system proves >>>>> (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 19:35:47 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even >>>>>>>>>>> more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too >>>>>>>>>>> easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever >>>>>>>>>> lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments. >>>>>>>>>> I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system
    proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.

    Because it is true, and can be proven with the additional knowledge and
    tools of the meta-system, it shows that without the addtional knowledge
    and tools you can't make the proof.

    It seems you don't understand that the base system and the meta system
    are different.

    Boy, are you stupid.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 19:04:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even >>>>>>>>>>>> more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's >>>>>>>>>>>> too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever >>>>>>>>>>> lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system
    proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true. >>>>>>>

    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    When we name this proposition G then a proof of G
    would be a sequence of inference steps that prove
    that they themselves do not exist.

    Anything that asserts its own non-existence
    is necessarily incorrect.

    Because it is true, and can be proven with the additional knowledge and tools-a of the meta-system, it shows that without the addtional knowledge and tools you can't make the proof.

    It seems you don't understand that the base system and the meta system
    are different.

    Boy, are you stupid.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 20:29:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 8:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even >>>>>>>>>>>>> more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's >>>>>>>>>>>>> too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that >>>>>>>>>>>> ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their >>>>>>>>>>>> comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system
    proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true. >>>>>>>>

    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    You keep on repeating that, but show you don't know what it means,
    proving your stupidity.


    When we name this proposition G then a proof of G
    would be a sequence of inference steps that prove
    that they themselves do not exist.

    Right, we name the proposition G.

    Then we form a set of steps in M, the Meta-system that proves that G is
    True.

    And, the steps they prove do not exist, are those that live in the base
    system F.

    It is quite possible to travel at a speed in the "Meta-System" "Car"
    that would be impossible to do in the base system "Tricycle".

    Or, to life a 10 Ton block with a hydrolic crane that you could not life
    with your bear hands.

    You don't seem to understand the simple fact that there are two
    different but related systems being talked about, because you are just
    too stupid.

    Sorry, you are just proving your stupidity, and the fact you don't even
    try to answer the problem being pointed out, that you KNOW you are too
    stupid, so you are just going to repeat your know lies because that is
    all you can think of.


    Anything that asserts its own non-existence
    is necessarily incorrect.

    Because it is true, and can be proven with the additional knowledge
    and tools-a of the meta-system, it shows that without the addtional
    knowledge and tools you can't make the proof.

    It seems you don't understand that the base system and the meta system
    are different.

    Boy, are you stupid.



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 20:15:21 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 8:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that >>>>>>>>>>>>> ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their >>>>>>>>>>>>> comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system >>>>>>>>> proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true. >>>>>>>>>

    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    You keep on repeating that, but show you don't know what it means,
    proving your stupidity.


    It can only mean one thing when taken 100% literally.

    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    It say nothing at all about any meta-system.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 21:48:31 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/25 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 8:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any
    sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid.

    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system >>>>>>>>>> proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is true. >>>>>>>>>>

    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    You keep on repeating that, but show you don't know what it means,
    proving your stupidity.


    It can only mean one thing when taken 100% literally.

    The problem is language is not to be taken "100% literally", and thus
    you just show you don't understand how words have meaning.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    It say nothing at all about any meta-system.

    Sure it does, as it is in the section talking about an analysis in the meta-syste

    I guess you are just proving you are a total idiot with no understanding
    of the structure of language, which is why your goal of trying to base
    your logic on words and their meaning is so hilarious, since you neve runderstod the nature of language in the first place.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 31 23:03:33 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/31/2025 8:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 8:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only person in the world that ever checked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of inference steps in F prove that they
    themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid. >>>>>>>>>>>
    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system >>>>>>>>>>> proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is >>>>>>>>>>> true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement.

    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    You keep on repeating that, but show you don't know what it means,
    proving your stupidity.


    It can only mean one thing when taken 100% literally.

    The problem is language is not to be taken "100% literally", and thus
    you just show you don't understand how words have meaning.


    Formal mathematical specifications are taken literally or incorrectly.

    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    "a proposition which asserts its own unprovability."
    says nothing at all about any meta-system.


    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    It say nothing at all about any meta-system.

    Sure it does, as it is in the section talking about an analysis in the meta-syste

    I guess you are just proving you are a total idiot with no understanding
    of the structure of language, which is why your goal of trying to base
    your logic on words and their meaning is so hilarious, since you neve runderstod the nature of language in the first place.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott<br><br>

    My 28 year goal has been to make <br>
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"<br>
    reliably computable.<br><br>

    This required establishing a new foundation<br>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 10:41:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 31/12/2025 21:16, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!

    Have you heard about his musings on God?


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    I misremembered, it was James Meyer. He has a website on it http://www.jamesrmeyer.com . He's very angry about people telling him
    he's wrong but who never checked like he did because they keep telling
    him reasons it's right that he's certain are not reflected in the actual
    work.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 11:49:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 1/1/26 12:03 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 8:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 8:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 7:23 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 5:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 5:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 4:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/31/25 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/31/2025 3:16 PM, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even more muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that ever
    lived!


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    G||del proved that there cannot possibly exist any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of inference steps in F prove that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves do not exist.

    No *FINITE* sequence of inference steps.


    Nothing can prove that itself does not
    exist because that forms proof that it
    does exist, dumbo.

    So you are just ignoring context because you are stupid. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    The statement, with the added information of the meta-system >>>>>>>>>>>> proves (by a proof in the meta system) that the statment is >>>>>>>>>>>> true.


    Something else can prove that X cannot prove that
    X does not exist, AKA your meta-system.

    Nothing can directly prove that itself does not
    exist because this forms proof that it does exist.



    Nope, got a source for that?

    Why does my explanation not work?


    It is not that your explanation doesn't work.
    It is that it ignores the root cause of why
    G is unprovable in F.

    So, how do you think you can prove it in F?


    Nothing can prove that itself does not exist.
    Any such proof would be self-refuting.


    But it isn't the PROOF that does the proving, it is the statement. >>>>>>
    THe statement G exist, and it is True.


    ...We are therefore confronted with a proposition which
    asserts its own unprovability. 15 rCa (G||del 1931:40-41)

    You keep on repeating that, but show you don't know what it means,
    proving your stupidity.


    It can only mean one thing when taken 100% literally.

    The problem is language is not to be taken "100% literally", and thus
    you just show you don't understand how words have meaning.


    Formal mathematical specifications are taken literally or incorrectly.


    Which only applies to formal mathematical specifications, and not to
    just natural language statements made in a paper.

    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    Which is a Natural Language interpretation of the Formal Mathematical statement which G is, based on the additional meaning it obtains from
    the mete system M.

    G is actually a preposition about the non-existance of a Natural Number
    g that satisfies a particular mathematical relationship. That
    relationship in F is just some complicated formula that can be evaluated
    for any Natural Number, but the meta-system M understands that encoded
    into this formula is a proof checker of proofs of the statement G
    encoded into a number by rules in M of proofs in F.


    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    Yes, from knowledge obtain in M, we can understand G to mean that there
    is no sequence if F that proves it.

    You seem to be confusing the sequence of steps which prove a statement
    with the statement itself.

    Typical of you, as you have shown you don't know what "Proof" means,
    amoung your many other misunderstood words.


    "a proposition which asserts its own unprovability."
    says nothing at all about any meta-system.

    Because you are taking the statement out of its context.

    I guess you just just don't understand how languages work.

    Note, even formal mathematical specifications will depend on context,
    and most won't indicate what system they are made in, but that comes out
    of the context they were made in.

    All you are doing is proving that you are dumber that even the AI LLMs
    that you praise, because at least they look at tbe full context of a
    sttaement (even if only mechanically).

    Thus, you prove that you are just an ignorant pathological liar.



    a proposition which asserts its own unprovability.
    G says that itself is unprovable

    G says that itself has no sequence of inference
    steps that prove that they themselves do not exist.

    It say nothing at all about any meta-system.

    Sure it does, as it is in the section talking about an analysis in the
    meta-syste

    I guess you are just proving you are a total idiot with no
    understanding of the structure of language, which is why your goal of
    trying to base your logic on words and their meaning is so hilarious,
    since you neve runderstod the nature of language in the first place.



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 12:34:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 1/1/26 5:41 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 31/12/2025 21:16, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more muddled, >>> leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!

    Have you heard about his musings on God?


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    I misremembered, it was James Meyer. He has a website on it http://www.jamesrmeyer.com . He's very angry about people telling him
    he's wrong but who never checked like he did because they keep telling
    him reasons it's right that he's certain are not reflected in the actual work.


    In other words, since he doesn't understand it, it must be wrong.


    Since his page begins with a rejection of the axiom of Choice, and the
    example he gives, it shows a limitation in his ability to understand the nature of infinite systems.

    To expect that infinite systems behave just like we see finite systems
    work is a funamental error.

    Yes, it seems to create paradoxes, but those paradoxes are only apparent
    due to the lack of understanding about the actual nature of infinite sets.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From dart200@user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 10:59:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 1/1/26 9:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/1/26 5:41 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 31/12/2025 21:16, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more
    muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!

    Have you heard about his musings on God?


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    I misremembered, it was James Meyer. He has a website on it
    http://www.jamesrmeyer.com . He's very angry about people telling him
    he's wrong but who never checked like he did because they keep telling
    him reasons it's right that he's certain are not reflected in the actual
    work.


    i tried to talk to that fool. he banned me pretty quickly so obviously
    it's a fucking idiot


    In other words, since he doesn't understand it, it must be wrong.


    Since his page begins with a rejection of the axiom of Choice, and the example he gives, it shows a limitation in his ability to understand the nature of infinite systems.

    To expect that infinite systems behave just like we see finite systems
    work is a funamental error.

    Yes, it seems to create paradoxes, but those paradoxes are only apparent
    due to the lack of understanding about the actual nature of infinite sets.
    --
    a burnt out swe investigating into why our tooling doesn't involve
    basic semantic proofs like halting analysis

    please excuse my pseudo-pyscript,

    ~ nick
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 22:13:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 01/01/2026 00:35, Richard Damon wrote:

    THe statement G exist


    Ah, I'm not so easily convinced
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Jan 1 17:42:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 1/1/26 5:13 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 01/01/2026 00:35, Richard Damon wrote:

    THe statement G exist


    Ah, I'm not so easily convinced



    What did he do that might allow it not to exist?

    He constructs it by the rules of F, and shows that for it to not be
    true, F must be inconsistant.

    You can't just complain that you don't think something exists, when it
    was constructed by the system.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From x@x@x.net to comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Jan 2 09:54:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 1/1/26 09:34, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/1/26 5:41 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
    On 31/12/2025 21:16, Pierre Asselin wrote:
    In sci.logic Tristan Wibberley
    <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

    [ ... ]
    Then he defines a new system "P" which he uses to get even more
    muddled,
    leaves out the crucial elements of his proof because it's too easy to
    get wrong,

    G||del, muddled? He was the most meticulous sonovabitch that ever
    lived!

    Have you heard about his musings on God?


    and Stephen Meyer says he does get it wrong; he seems to be
    the only person in the world that ever checked.

    People have misunderstood G||del and proved it by their comments.
    I don't know who Stephen Meyer is; my money is on G||del.


    I misremembered, it was James Meyer. He has a website on it
    http://www.jamesrmeyer.com . He's very angry about people telling him
    he's wrong but who never checked like he did because they keep telling
    him reasons it's right that he's certain are not reflected in the actual
    work.


    In other words, since he doesn't understand it, it must be wrong.

    Is that a bad definition based upon philosophic idealism?

    If no one understands it, why can it not be wrong?

    If no one explains it, doesn't it become more and
    more wrong as people do not bother to explain it?

    Since his page begins with a rejection of the axiom of Choice,
    What is the axiom of choice?

    ? and the
    example he gives,

    I generally do not want to bother sifting through all of
    the threads to find this theoretical example. Where is
    that?

    it shows a limitation in his ability to understand the
    nature of infinite systems.

    I do not understand this. I am ok with the idea that
    it is wrong until it is explained.

    If you do not explain it that tells me that you do
    not care about the concept yourself.

    To expect that infinite systems behave just like we see finite systems
    work is a funamental error.

    Yes, it seems to create paradoxes, but those paradoxes are only apparent
    due to the lack of understanding about the actual nature of infinite
    sets.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2