• Breast-beating

    From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 13:05:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Today - just about now, actually - there is a minute's silence across
    the whole of Switzerland in memory of the victims of the fire in the Constellation bar in Crans-Montana. I have long wondered about why some
    tragic deaths merit more mourning than others, and the word
    'breast-beating' comes to mind....


    Anyway, back to English usage. Interesting word, 'breast-beating' -
    usefully expressive, though one doesn't hear it very often. The spelling
    seems unstable:

    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=breast+beating%2Cbreast-beating%2Cbreastbeating&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>

    (It has Chinese associations for me, since I first met 'Breastbeater' as
    the nickname of a Red Guard in Ken Ling's 'Red Guard: Schoolboy to
    "Little General" in Mao's China'. I have no idea whether the Chinese do
    more of it than anyone else.)
    --
    Agriculteurs : -2 Mercosur, mort |a coup s|+r ! -+
    Hibou : Voici la solution : vivement le Frexit ! :-)
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  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 16:51:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 09/01/2026 14:05, Hibou wrote:
    Today - just about now, actually - there is a minute's silence across
    the whole of Switzerland in memory of the victims of the fire in the Constellation bar in Crans-Montana. I have long wondered about why some tragic deaths merit more mourning than others, and the word 'breast-
    beating' comes to mind....


    Anyway, back to English usage. Interesting word, 'breast-beating' -
    usefully expressive, though one doesn't hear it very often. The spelling seems unstable:

    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=breast+beating%2Cbreast- beating%2Cbreastbeating&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>

    (It has Chinese associations for me, since I first met 'Breastbeater' as
    the nickname of a Red Guard in Ken Ling's 'Red Guard: Schoolboy to
    "Little General" in Mao's China'. I have no idea whether the Chinese do
    more of it than anyone else.)


    For me, breast-beating has an Arab (or Muslim) association. I notice it
    at funerals (e.g. in Palestine recently) where a lot of breast-beating
    takes place, mainly by grieving women.

    There is also 'chest - beating'. Although different in meaning, the two
    seem to have a parallel development (in ngram English, at least).

    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=breast-beating%2C+chest-beating&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3>
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 19:17:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 09/01/2026 |a 15:51, occam a |-crit :
    On 09/01/2026 14:05, Hibou wrote:

    (It has Chinese associations for me, since I first met 'Breastbeater' as
    the nickname of a Red Guard in Ken Ling's 'Red Guard: Schoolboy to
    "Little General" in Mao's China'. I have no idea whether the Chinese do
    more of it than anyone else.)

    For me, breast-beating has an Arab (or Muslim) association. I notice it
    at funerals (e.g. in Palestine recently) where a lot of breast-beating
    takes place, mainly by grieving women.

    There is also 'chest - beating'. Although different in meaning, the two
    seem to have a parallel development (in ngram English, at least).

    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=breast-beating%2C+chest-beating&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3>


    So they do. Curious.

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy. 'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned,' the
    president said in his initial news conference on the operation. Marco
    Rubio's State Department followed up this week like a football coach
    psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is OUR hemisphere,'..." -
    NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never' is
    a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). EfA|"Oceania, 'tis
    for thee...."EfA|

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 19:31:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 09/01/2026 |a 19:17, Hibou a |-crit :

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain others
    do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy. 'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned,' the
    president said in his initial news conference on the operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is OUR hemisphere,'..." -
    NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never' is
    a long time. Just look at history.) [...]


    Here's ambition (with no chest-beating, just a modest cough):

    <https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6558fb046df97872d26e085254df5ea2-lq>

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  • From Phil@phil@anonymous.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 19:54:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:
    Le 09/01/2026 |a 15:51, occam a |-crit :
    On 09/01/2026 14:05, Hibou wrote:

    (It has Chinese associations for me, since I first met 'Breastbeater' as >>> the nickname of a Red Guard in Ken Ling's 'Red Guard: Schoolboy to
    "Little General" in Mao's China'. I have no idea whether the Chinese do
    more of it than anyone else.)

    For me, breast-beating has an Arab (or Muslim) association.-a I notice it
    at funerals (e.g. in Palestine recently) where a lot of breast-beating
    takes place, mainly by grieving women.

    There is also 'chest - beating'. Although different in meaning, the two
    seem to have a parallel development (in ngram English, at least).

    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=breast-beating%2C+chest-beating&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3>


    So they do. Curious.

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain others
    do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy. 'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned,' the
    president said in his initial news conference on the operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is OUR hemisphere,'..." -
    NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never' is
    a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). EfA|"Oceania, 'tis
    for thee...."EfA|


    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?
    --
    Phil B

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  • From Snidely@snidely.too@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 13:36:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Friday, Hibou murmurred ...
    Le 09/01/2026 a 19:17, Hibou a ocrit :

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain others
    do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South America >> - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy. 'American dominance >> in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned,' the president said in >> his initial news conference on the operation. Marco Rubio's State
    Department followed up this week like a football coach psyching up his
    players for a home game. 'This is OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never' is a >> long time. Just look at history.) [...]


    Here's ambition (with no chest-beating, just a modest cough):

    <https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6558fb046df97872d26e085254df5ea2-lq>

    An eye test?

    /dps
    --
    "This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
    but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
    moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
    top of him?"
    _Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
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  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Fri Jan 9 22:05:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 09/01/2026 21:36, Snidely wrote:
    Friday, Hibou murmurred ...
    Le 09/01/2026 |a 19:17, Hibou a |-crit :

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain
    others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on the
    operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like
    a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is
    OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never'
    is a long time. Just look at history.) [...]


    Here's ambition (with no chest-beating, just a modest cough):

    <https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-
    qimg-6558fb046df97872d26e085254df5ea2-lq>

    An eye test?

    Well, many people see red when they look at that map.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sat Jan 10 08:01:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 09/01/2026 |a 19:54, Phil a |-crit :
    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain others
    do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on the
    operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like a
    football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is OUR
    hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never'
    is a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). EfA|"Oceania, 'tis
    for thee...."EfA|

    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?


    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    I can imagine streams of refugees heading for East Anglia.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sat Jan 10 08:20:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 09/01/2026 |a 21:36, Snidely a |-crit :
    Friday, Hibou murmurred ...

    Here's ambition (with no chest-beating, just a modest cough):

    <https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-
    qimg-6558fb046df97872d26e085254df5ea2-lq>

    An eye test?


    Apologies for that. My New Year's resolution isn't too clear.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From lar3ryca@larry@invalid.ca to alt.usage.english on Sat Jan 10 13:48:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 09/01/2026 |a 19:54, Phil a |-crit :
    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain
    others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on the
    operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like
    a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is
    OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never'
    is a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). EfA|"Oceania, 'tis >>> for thee...."EfA|

    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?


    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    I can imagine streams of refugees heading for East Anglia.
    --
    I was attacked by a bunch of circus clowns.
    I won though. I went right for the juggler.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Phil@phil@anonymous.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sat Jan 10 22:02:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 10/01/2026 19:48, lar3ryca wrote:
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 09/01/2026 |a 19:54, Phil a |-crit :
    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain
    others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on
    the operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week
    like a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This
    is OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never'
    is a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). EfA|"Oceania,
    'tis for thee...."EfA|

    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?


    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    I can imagine streams of refugees heading for East Anglia.



    Also half of France, most of Spain, all of Portugal, a large chunk of
    Africa, and a slice of Russia's Chukchi Peninsula. Oh dear.

    Oh, and half of Antarctica, of course.
    --
    Phil B

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 06:56:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 20:06:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/01/26 17:56, Hibou wrote:
    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Or was it Tehran? Sometimes it's hard to keep track.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 11:11:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 11:39:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I'm beginning to wonder if sarcasm has a place in Danish culture.

    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly in England before that
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 12:52:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 10/01/2026 a 19:48, lar3ryca a ocrit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.
    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    There are even rumours that a glimmer of a smile may
    have been seen on her lips,

    Jan



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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 13:03:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I'm beginning to wonder if sarcasm has a place in Danish culture.

    There is more to Danish culture than...

    Jan

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 13:23:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/01/2026 12:39, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >>>> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis. >>
    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I'm beginning to wonder if sarcasm has a place in Danish culture.



    It's a windy place, Denmark. Sometimes you don't here the whoosh passing
    by you.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Janet@nobody@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 13:04:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <10juaf2$3dfc9$1@dont-email.me>,
    larry@invalid.ca says...

    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 09/01/2026 a 19:54, Phil a ocrit :
    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain
    others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on the >>> operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like
    a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is
    OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never'
    is a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). ?"Oceania, 'tis
    for thee...."?

    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?


    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    So is New Zealand.

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    Janet
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  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 13:20:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <MPG.43cdb0314bb6dc3442c@news.individual.net>,
    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps

    Perhaps they should stop complaining about this.

    -- Richard
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 13:33:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 11/01/2026 |a 11:52, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.
    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    There are even rumours that a glimmer of a smile may
    have been seen on her lips,


    That's my understanding, certainly. Of course, our greatest gift to the
    world - greater even than the railways - is the language. Many
    foreigners have criticised the English /in English/, which gives their criticism greater currency - but do feel free not to use it if you don't
    want to.

    The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, and the solemn temples
    are now dissolved - and in this case they have left a rack behind - a
    jolly good rack, too.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 14:07:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 11/01/2026 |a 11:52, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.
    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    There are even rumours that a glimmer of a smile may
    have been seen on her lips,


    R|-ponse alternative...

    I am not imperialist myself, and I think I can criticise those who are, especially if their methods are bloody. What my ancestors did, good or
    bad, is neither here nor there. They weren't me, and I am not them.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 14:44:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:


    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I'm beginning to wonder if sarcasm has a place in Danish culture.


    Bertel's post also dishonestly snipped the second half of Peter's post:

    "Or was it Tehran? Sometimes it's hard to keep track."

    Omitting that encouraged the idea that the first half was meant seriously.
    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly in England before that
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 15:55:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

    In article <10juaf2$3dfc9$1@dont-email.me>,
    larry@invalid.ca says...

    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 09/01/2026 a 19:54, Phil a ocrit :
    On 09/01/2026 19:17, Hibou wrote:

    Chest-beating is, it seems, something that gorillas and certain
    others do...

    "The Trump administration is hunkering down around North and South
    America - and then beating its chest about regional supremacy.
    'American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be
    questioned,' the president said in his initial news conference on the >>> operation. Marco Rubio's State Department followed up this week like >>> a football coach psyching up his players for a home game. 'This is
    OUR hemisphere,'..." - NYT yesterday.

    Just half the world, then? Where's your ambition, boys? (And 'never' >>> is a long time. Just look at history.)

    It's Oceania without Airstrip One (I'm glad to say). ?"Oceania, 'tis >>> for thee...."?

    Without Airstrip One... How confident are you of that?


    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    So is New Zealand.

    ???
    From what I remember that antipodes point is well west of New Zealand,
    so they should be safe, not being on Trumps hemisphere.
    He'll stumble over the date line, getting there,

    Jan

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    Janet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 14:59:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) posted:

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.

    In some cases they really did, as for example in Basutoland (now Lesotho), where
    they wanted to be protected from the Afrikaners.

    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    There are even rumours that a glimmer of a smile may
    have been seen on her lips,

    Jan



    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly in England before that
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 18:06:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 11/01/2026 |a 11:52, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.
    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    There are even rumours that a glimmer of a smile may
    have been seen on her lips,


    R|-ponse alternative...

    I am not imperialist myself, and I think I can criticise those who are, especially if their methods are bloody. What my ancestors did, good or
    bad, is neither here nor there. They weren't me, and I am not them.

    ...but you may still be benefitting from what they did ...and the
    successors of their victims may still be suffering because of it.
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 21:33:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) posted:

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 10/01/2026 a 19:48, lar3ryca a ocrit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.

    In some cases they really did, as for example in Basutoland (now Lesotho), where they wanted to be protected from the Afrikaners.

    Would it really surprise you to learn that different langage versions
    of Wikipedia pages about it have different views on what happened?

    Summary: They exchanged fighting against the Boers
    for becoming a British protectorate,
    which mutated almost immediately
    into direct British rule from Cape Town,
    without them having much to say in their own matters.
    Armed revolt against British rule followed.

    Jan
    --
    "Het maakt niet uit of je door de hond of de kat gebeten wordt"
    (old Dutch proverb) Guess you can translate.

    It is sometimes followed by "je bent (altijd) het haasje"





    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 20:59:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/01/2026 10:11, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >>> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I think he's been distracted. He's swerved into threatening Cuba now.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 21:00:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/01/2026 06:56, Hibou wrote:
    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    Putin's the smart one - or so we used to think.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 21:05:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/01/2026 13:20, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <MPG.43cdb0314bb6dc3442c@news.individual.net>,
    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps

    Perhaps they should stop complaining about this.

    They ought to publish their own world maps, omitting an odd continent
    here or there.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:49:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/26 07:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 11/01/2026 10:11, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it
    hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in
    Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I think he's been distracted. He's swerved into threatening Cuba now.

    Ooh, shiny.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 09:05:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/26 01:55, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
    In article <10juaf2$3dfc9$1@dont-email.me>,
    larry@invalid.ca says...
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    Not entirely. Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.

    So is New Zealand.

    ???
    From what I remember that antipodes point is well west of New Zealand,
    so they should be safe, not being on Trumps hemisphere.
    He'll stumble over the date line, getting there,

    The international date line doesn't quite follow the 180 degree line. It zigzags a bit, for political reasons. It wouldn't be hard for Trump to
    move the line a bit further, pushing NZ over the edge.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 09:07:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/26 08:05, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 11/01/2026 13:20, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <MPG.43cdb0314bb6dc3442c@news.individual.net>,
    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps

    Perhaps they should stop complaining about this.

    They ought to publish their own world maps, omitting an odd continent
    here or there.

    World maps published in New Zealand, like those published in Australia,
    have west Africa on the far left. The UK is a small insignificant region
    near the edge, so it would be easy to overlook it.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jan 11 23:28:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 11/01/2026 13:20, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <MPG.43cdb0314bb6dc3442c@news.individual.net>,
    Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps

    Perhaps they should stop complaining about this.

    They ought to publish their own world maps, omitting an odd continent
    here or there.

    But they do. They publish their own upside-down maps,
    with nothing but ocean all around,

    Jan

    (NZ then looks just like Italy)

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 03:09:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <1rosa4m.1146osaapcf8xN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I am not imperialist myself, and I think I can criticise those who are,
    especially if their methods are bloody. What my ancestors did, good or
    bad, is neither here nor there. They weren't me, and I am not them.

    ...but you may still be benefitting from what they did

    Or you may not be - you may also be a victim of their actions. Should
    we assess every person's status to determine which is true?

    -- Richard
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 06:32:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 11/01/2026 |a 22:07, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 12/01/26 08:05, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 11/01/2026 13:20, Richard Tobin wrote:
    Janet-awrote:

    Lucky for NZ it's on the underside of Trump's world map,
    out of sight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps

    Perhaps they should stop complaining about this.

    They ought to publish their own world maps, omitting an odd continent
    here or there.

    World maps published in New Zealand, like those published in Australia,
    have west Africa on the far left. The UK is a small insignificant region
    near the edge, so it would be easy to overlook it.


    And Scotland's even smaller. Unfortunately, it's on Mr Trump's maps,
    labelled 'Golf of America'.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 06:32:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 11/01/2026 |a 18:06, Liz Tuddenham a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote:

    I am not imperialist myself, and I think I can criticise those who are,
    especially if their methods are bloody. What my ancestors did, good or
    bad, is neither here nor there. They weren't me, and I am not them.

    ...but you may still be benefitting from what they did ...and the successors of their victims may still be suffering because of it.


    I suppose we all of us benefit or lose by our heritage, by what our
    ancestors did, including what they did to others, and that heritage is
    usually indirect and impossible to evaluate - but does that mean we
    can't have opinions? If we do, are they not to be taken seriously? Are
    Germans disqualified from condemning Neo-Nazis if their
    great-grandfathers wore the crooked cross?

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation).
    I don't think individuals should receive praise or blame earned by their ancestors, over whom they had no control.

    Individuals are answerable for what they've done themselves, as are institutions, including long-lived ones such as nations. And there it
    becomes complicated....

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:10:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:09:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 07:10, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy
    at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness
    and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
    and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth
    generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:10:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:09, Hibou a |-crit :
    Le 12/01/2026 |a 07:10, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy
    at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness
    and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
    and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.


    <https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Exodus-Chapter-34/#7>

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 09:27:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy
    at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness
    and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
    and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible
    was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:45:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:27, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:
    [...]
    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth
    generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?

    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is
    patchy at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
    goodness and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
    the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to
    the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible
    was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 08:57:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:45, Hibou a |-crit :

    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.


    It's hard not to have a soft spot for the so-called 'Sinners' Bible', in
    which the Seventh Commandment is 'Thou shalt commit adultery'.

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible>

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 10:32:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.45 skrev Hibou:

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the
    Bible was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    I fully understand that anyone can take an interest in the Bible. I haven't.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 17:33:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    * Hibou <msjqm0F9rd9U3@mid.individual.net> :
    Wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000:
    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    there's this take on that here (tyndale rather than the authors of the
    kjv)

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-reformation-of-english

    (by way of Ranjit, "Tyndale the father of Modern English?", Date:
    "Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:08:24 -0700 (PDT)" Message-Id:
    <7b9ac986-c712-48c7-a027-7b413dce170bn@googlegroups.com>)

    as for upto the "third and fourth generation", God issued an update to
    those who held to this flawed exegesis, even those in exile in Babylon,
    through Ezekiel 18. check out the NIV gender neutered translation:

    "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not
    share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the
    guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be
    credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be
    charged against them." (Ezekiel. 18:20, NIV 2021)
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kerr-Mudd, John@admin@127.0.0.1 to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 12:27:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000
    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
    Le 12/01/2026 a 08:27, Bertel Lund Hansen a ocrit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:
    [...]
    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth
    generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?

    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is
    patchy at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
    goodness and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
    the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to
    the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    I humbly? submit that a lot of atheists have better knowledge of the
    bible than many who are nominally christians.
    (especially geologists - 6 day universes are so last year)
    --
    Bah, and indeed, Humbug
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kerr-Mudd, John@admin@127.0.0.1 to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 12:46:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:49:01 +1100
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 12/01/26 07:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 11/01/2026 10:11, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it
    hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in
    Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    I think he's been distracted. He's swerved into threatening Cuba now.

    Ooh, shiny.

    I don't think so, it's all part of the agenda for the US dominating the
    Western hemisphere. Cuba is in deep trouble without a friendly oil
    supplier - was USSR, then Russia, recently Venezuela. The Florida-based
    rich exiles who lost out in the Castro revolution have always been
    looking for a way back in.
    --
    Bah, and indeed, Humbug
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:34:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:11:32 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >>> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis.

    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    He's certainly been promising to protect the protesters in Iran,
    though how his missiles will distinguish between them and those they
    are protesting against he doesn't tell us.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:38:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 12:52:02 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.
    And those Indians crawled up to her feet
    while humbly asking her to accept to become their empress.

    They were asking her to protect them from her chartered company, to
    which tax collection in several principalities and native states had
    been outsourced.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:46:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:10:45 +0000, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:09, Hibou a |-crit :
    Le 12/01/2026 |a 07:10, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation). >>>
    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy
    at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness
    and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
    and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth
    generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on
    edge.

    The fathers dug the mines, and the children live with sinkholes and
    poisoned rivers, even unto the third and fourth generation.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:51:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 21:33:14 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) posted:

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >> > > to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    While under the good Queen Victoria all those natives,
    all over the world, just begged to be allowed
    into the great British empire.

    In some cases they really did, as for example in Basutoland (now Lesotho), >> where they wanted to be protected from the Afrikaners.

    Would it really surprise you to learn that different langage versions
    of Wikipedia pages about it have different views on what happened?

    Summary: They exchanged fighting against the Boers
    for becoming a British protectorate,
    which mutated almost immediately
    into direct British rule from Cape Town,
    without them having much to say in their own matters.
    Armed revolt against British rule followed.

    You may be thinking of Bechuanaland/Botswana. And they were ruled from Mafeking/Mafikeng/Mahikeng.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 16:01:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 21:00:13 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 11/01/2026 06:56, Hibou wrote:
    Le 10/01/2026 |a 19:48, lar3ryca a |-crit :
    On 2026-01-10 02:01, Hibou wrote:

    [...] Most of Britain is in the Western Hemisphere.

    So is most of Denmark.


    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard
    to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    Putin's the smart one - or so we used to think.

    I believe it was a Canadian diplomat who said, immediately after his
    invasion of Ukraine, "I used to think you were a master chess player,
    but now you're simply throwing dice."

    The difference, however, is that Trump's invasions, or threatened
    invasions, have been unprovoked.

    Putin's invasion of Ukraine may have been unjustified, but it wasn't unprovoked.

    ObAUE: What are the nuances of "provocation" in international
    politics?

    Trump might claim that Venezuela's having more oil than the US was
    provocation enough.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:11:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 14.34 skrev Steve Hayes:

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis. >>
    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    He's certainly been promising to protect the protesters in Iran,
    though how his missiles will distinguish between them and those they
    are protesting against he doesn't tell us.

    Couldn't he choose the Venezuelan model?
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:13:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 15.01 skrev Steve Hayes:

    I believe it was a Canadian diplomat who said, immediately after his
    invasion of Ukraine, "I used to think you were a master chess player,
    but now you're simply throwing dice."

    The difference, however, is that Trump's invasions, or threatened
    invasions, have been unprovoked.

    Putin's invasion of Ukraine may have been unjustified, but it wasn't unprovoked.

    How was he provoked before he took Crimea?

    Oh, I get it. It was the existance of Ukraine that provoked him.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 16:18:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000
    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 a 08:27, Bertel Lund Hansen a ocrit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:
    [...]
    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth
    generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?

    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is
    patchy at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
    goodness and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
    the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to
    the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    I humbly? submit that a lot of atheists have better knowledge of the
    bible than many who are nominally christians.

    (especially geologists - 6 day universes are so last year)

    Indeed. It was put to the test several times in the Netherlands
    when a christian news channel decided to organise a bible quiz.
    (I remember having said this here on an earlier occasion)

    The contestants were divided into groups on basis of their own
    declarations of belief.
    (like roman catholics, orthodox protestants, other protestants,
    and of course atheist)
    Not to difficult factual questions, like how how many days did Noah
    float, who said something about throwing the first stone, etc.)

    The orthodox protestants (who still do bible reading)
    and the atheists scored best.
    The roman catholics did worse, and the ladies of a hallelujah chorus
    were almost completely clueless, beyond 'Josua fit the battle '

    It ran for several seasons, and the results were reproducible,

    Jan
    (from fallible memory)

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 19:20:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/2026 13:34, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:11:32 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 11.01.2026 kl. 10.06 skrev Peter Moylan:

    Quite. If Mr Trump uses force to acquire Greenland, I shall find it hard >>>> to distinguish between him and Mr Putin.

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis. >>
    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    He's certainly been promising to protect the protesters in Iran,
    though how his missiles will distinguish between them and those they
    are protesting against he doesn't tell us.

    He isn't a details person. He does threats and posturing, he leaves the
    rest to the military.

    Didn't he describe people who joined the military as "loosers"?
    (Some time around his first run for office.)
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 19:26:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/2026 13:46, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:10:45 +0000, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:09, Hibou a |-crit :
    Le 12/01/2026 |a 07:10, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation). >>>>
    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy
    at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness >>> and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, >>> and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth
    generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on
    edge.

    The fathers dug the mines, and the children live with sinkholes and
    poisoned rivers, even unto the third and fourth generation.

    To be fair, the rivers here in South Wales have been cleaned up (a bit)
    in recent decades.

    P.S. Only part of this house is below ground level.

    P.P.S. Yes my father did dig _in_ the mines, but my Great Grandfather
    was one of those who _dug_ the mine in the first place.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 19:31:47 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/01/2026 15:18, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000
    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:27, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:
    [...]
    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the >>>>>>> iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth
    generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?

    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is
    patchy at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The >>>>> LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
    goodness and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
    the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to >>>>> the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible >>>> was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has
    contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    I humbly? submit that a lot of atheists have better knowledge of the
    bible than many who are nominally christians.

    (especially geologists - 6 day universes are so last year)

    Indeed. It was put to the test several times in the Netherlands
    when a christian news channel decided to organise a bible quiz.
    (I remember having said this here on an earlier occasion)

    The contestants were divided into groups on basis of their own
    declarations of belief.
    (like roman catholics, orthodox protestants, other protestants,
    and of course atheist)
    Not to difficult factual questions, like how how many days did Noah
    float, who said something about throwing the first stone, etc.)

    The orthodox protestants (who still do bible reading)
    and the atheists scored best.
    The roman catholics did worse, and the ladies of a hallelujah chorus
    were almost completely clueless, beyond 'Josua fit the battle '

    It ran for several seasons, and the results were reproducible,

    If you only have a vague notion of what is in the bible, why would you
    compete in order to to put that ignorance on display before an audience
    of (I have no idea what the viewer/listener figures would be for such a
    news channel)?
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 22:02:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 14.34 skrev Steve Hayes:

    He's not all bad. He's promised to protect the protesters in Minneapolis. >>
    Is that good? Isn't he just protecting and supporting trouble wherever
    it appears - and stirring up some if it doesn't?

    He's certainly been promising to protect the protesters in Iran,
    though how his missiles will distinguish between them and those they
    are protesting against he doesn't tell us.

    Couldn't he choose the Venezuelan model?

    Great idea, if you remember that the American Army under Jimmy Carter
    couldn't even liberate some American hostages from Tehran,

    Jan


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From lar3ryca@larry@invalid.ca to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 15:10:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-01-12 06:03, Madhu wrote:
    * Hibou <msjqm0F9rd9U3@mid.individual.net> :
    Wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000:
    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has
    contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    there's this take on that here (tyndale rather than the authors of the
    kjv)

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-reformation-of-english

    (by way of Ranjit, "Tyndale the father of Modern English?", Date:
    "Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:08:24 -0700 (PDT)" Message-Id:
    <7b9ac986-c712-48c7-a027-7b413dce170bn@googlegroups.com>)

    as for upto the "third and fourth generation", God issued an update to
    those who held to this flawed exegesis, even those in exile in Babylon, through Ezekiel 18. check out the NIV gender neutered translation:

    "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not
    share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the
    guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be
    credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be
    charged against them." (Ezekiel. 18:20, NIV 2021)

    Consistency not skill of biblical authors.
    --
    Inoculatte (v): To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Mon Jan 12 22:47:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 20.31 skrev Sam Plusnet:

    If you only have a vague notion of what is in the bible, why would you compete in order to to put that ignorance on display before an audience
    of (I have no idea what the viewer/listener figures would be for such a
    news channel)?

    You could ask the same question about most of the participants in
    "[Country]'s got X-factor-talent".
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 06:29:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 19:26:57 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 12/01/2026 13:46, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:10:45 +0000, Hibou
    <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 08:09, Hibou a |-crit :
    Le 12/01/2026 |a 07:10, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 07.32 skrev Hibou:

    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the
    iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth generation). >>>>>
    Isn't it seventh generation?


    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is patchy >>>> at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness >>>> and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, >>>> and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth
    generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on
    edge.

    The fathers dug the mines, and the children live with sinkholes and
    poisoned rivers, even unto the third and fourth generation.

    To be fair, the rivers here in South Wales have been cleaned up (a bit)
    in recent decades.

    P.S. Only part of this house is below ground level.

    P.P.S. Yes my father did dig _in_ the mines, but my Great Grandfather
    was one of those who _dug_ the mine in the first place.

    But I recall that something unpleasant happened in Aberfan around
    1967.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 06:38:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 15:13:29 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 15.01 skrev Steve Hayes:

    I believe it was a Canadian diplomat who said, immediately after his
    invasion of Ukraine, "I used to think you were a master chess player,
    but now you're simply throwing dice."

    The difference, however, is that Trump's invasions, or threatened
    invasions, have been unprovoked.

    Putin's invasion of Ukraine may have been unjustified, but it wasn't
    unprovoked.

    How was he provoked before he took Crimea?

    Oh, I get it. It was the existance of Ukraine that provoked him.

    The eastward expansion of Nato, the coup against Yanukovich and the
    resulting attacks by extreme nationalists of the west on people in
    eastern Ukraine might possibly have had something to do with it.

    There could also have been an element of tit for tat -- Nato detached
    Kosovo from Serbia, so he would detach Crimea from Ukraine, for very
    similar reasons, only with a lot less bloodshed.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 10:10:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    * Steve Hayes <9gibmkhciuo6srbmg603gnclh559gdchoj@4ax.com> :
    Wrote on Tue, 13 Jan 2026 06:29:49 +0200:
    P.P.S. Yes my father did dig _in_ the mines, but my Great Grandfather
    was one of those who _dug_ the mine in the first place.

    But I recall that something unpleasant happened in Aberfan around
    1967.


    "DEAR BROTHER BANKS, Doubtless you have read of the fearful
    explosions in this neighbourhood, which took place Saturday, Dec. 4,
    in the New Tredegar Colliery, where I have been working for the last
    few years.

    "I was there on the day of the explosion, but---through the very
    tender mercy of God---escaped unhurt out of the fiery mine. The
    man, and two sons, living next house to mine, are all dead. The
    sons were burnt as black as a coal. To-day we have to bury them.
    On Sunday, the day after the explosion, I had to preach at the Town
    Hall, Old Tredegar, where the dear people received me as one from
    the dead. That the dear Lord might long spare you, and strengthen
    you for the work He has given you to do, is the prayer of your
    unworthy friend, JOHN BOLTON, Coal-digger. 12, Garth Street,
    Pontlottyn, Glamorganshire. December 7th, 1875

    "P.S On Dec. 6th, William Evans, the foreman (who was so badly
    burnt) died, leaving wife and twelve children. He was a member of
    the Welsh Baptist. To-day we have to bury twelve poor fellows from
    Pontlottyn. [Awful scenes these! What shall we render unto the Lord
    for all His mercies to us!]

    Theres some comfort to be got from reading 19th century "Strict Baptist" Journals in how they dealt with the "development issues" and death.

    This one is from the "THE EARTHEN VESSEL and Christian Record for 1876
    Volume 32. (The only one I've read) biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/earthen-vessel/earthen-vessel_1876.pdf
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 06:00:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 13:46, Steve Hayes a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote:

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The
    LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness >>> and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, >>> and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth
    generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on
    edge.

    The fathers dug the mines, and the children live with sinkholes and
    poisoned rivers, even unto the third and fourth generation.


    Yes, but that's simple cause and effect. As I read Exodus 34, God was
    setting out - er, proclaiming - His policy:

    <https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Exodus-Chapter-34/>

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 06:00:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 12/01/2026 |a 12:03, Madhu a |-crit :
    Hibou wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000:

    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has
    contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    there's this take on that here (tyndale rather than the authors of the
    kjv)


    That's my understanding, too - that much of the language in the KJV came
    from Tyndale - but it was the KJV that became the standard, had the
    widest circulation and the greatest influence. The KJV has been in use
    for over four centuries, just about as long as Modern English.

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-reformation-of-english

    (by way of Ranjit, "Tyndale the father of Modern English?", Date:
    "Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:08:24 -0700 (PDT)" Message-Id:
    <7b9ac986-c712-48c7-a027-7b413dce170bn@googlegroups.com>)

    as for upto the "third and fourth generation", God issued an update to
    those who held to this flawed exegesis, even those in exile in Babylon, through Ezekiel 18. check out the NIV gender neutered translation:

    "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not
    share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the
    guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be
    credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be
    charged against them." (Ezekiel. 18:20, NIV 2021)


    Thanks for drawing my attention to that - though I think the KJV has
    more balls than the "neutered" version:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
    iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
    the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" - <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=KJV>

    It would seem that God, far from being immutable, is as changeable as
    the men who make Him in their image - and has now - God help us! -
    become woke.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 07:40:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 13.01.2026 kl. 05.38 skrev Steve Hayes:

    How was he provoked before he took Crimea?

    Oh, I get it. It was the existance of Ukraine that provoked him.

    The eastward expansion of Nato, the coup against Yanukovich and the
    resulting attacks by extreme nationalists of the west on people in
    eastern Ukraine might possibly have had something to do with it.

    There could also have been an element of tit for tat -- Nato detached
    Kosovo from Serbia, so he would detach Crimea from Ukraine, for very
    similar reasons, only with a lot less bloodshed.

    I see your points, and there's no reason to be proud of what outside (or inside) countries did in ex-Jugoslavia, but Kosovo became a country of
    its own. Crimea didn't.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 07:45:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 13.01.2026 kl. 05.29 skrev Steve Hayes:

    P.P.S. Yes my father did dig _in_ the mines, but my Great Grandfather
    was one of those who _dug_ the mine in the first place.

    But I recall that something unpleasant happened in Aberfan around
    1967.

    Last year a Danish company, Nordic Waste, copied the disaster, except
    that the slide was stopped in time. It was (is) more of an ecological disaster. The company tried to remove the polluted earth but gave up
    when they realised what it would cost. It then went technically bankrupt.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 17:52:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/01/26 17:00, Hibou wrote:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
    iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
    the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" - <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=KJV>

    It would seem that God, far from being immutable, is as changeable as
    the men who make Him in their image - and has now - God help us! -
    become woke.

    It doesn't take much sampling of the Bible to discover that the God of
    the Bible changed personality over time. He was a real bastard in the
    early days, but gradually seems to have developed a sense of morality.

    I'm inclined to the theory that the Bible describes more than one god,
    with the original god going mythical after a while, or whatever it is
    that ex-gods do.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 10:05:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 12/01/2026 15:18, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:45:52 +0000
    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 12/01/2026 a 08:27, Bertel Lund Hansen a ocrit :
    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 09.09 skrev Hibou:
    [...]
    I differ in this from God (who, the 'Good Book' says, visits the >>>>>>> iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the fourth
    generation).

    Isn't it seventh generation?

    I did check before writing that (my recollection of the Bible is
    patchy at best):

    "And the LORD passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed [...] The >>>>> LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
    goodness and truth [...]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon >>>>> the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to >>>>> the fourth generation" - Exodus 34.6-7, KJV.

    Oh well. It comes as no surprise that my mother's knowledge of the Bible >>>> was faulty. She didn't like it (she was an atheist).


    I'm an atheist, too. All the same, the KJV is powerfully written, has
    contributed much to our language, and interests me on that level.

    I humbly? submit that a lot of atheists have better knowledge of the
    bible than many who are nominally christians.

    (especially geologists - 6 day universes are so last year)

    Indeed. It was put to the test several times in the Netherlands
    when a christian news channel decided to organise a bible quiz.
    (I remember having said this here on an earlier occasion)

    The contestants were divided into groups on basis of their own
    declarations of belief.
    (like roman catholics, orthodox protestants, other protestants,
    and of course atheist)
    Not to difficult factual questions, like how how many days did Noah
    float, who said something about throwing the first stone, etc.)

    The orthodox protestants (who still do bible reading)
    and the atheists scored best.
    The roman catholics did worse, and the ladies of a hallelujah chorus
    were almost completely clueless, beyond 'Josua fit the battle '

    It ran for several seasons, and the results were reproducible,

    If you only have a vague notion of what is in the bible, why would you compete in order to to put that ignorance on display before an audience
    of (I have no idea what the viewer/listener figures would be for such a
    news channel)?

    Some hundred thousand, perhaps.
    Your argument applies to the believers.
    Dunning-Kruger applies also to religionists,
    and apart from that, some people will do everything,
    just to get their face on TV.

    The sample is no doubt biassed,
    because they believe they know what is in the bible,
    based on the few selected parts they have actually been taught.

    The atheists otoh know what they know.
    If they didn't have a good idea about their knowledge
    they wouldn't have appeared.

    Dutch orthodox protestants ('gereformeerden')
    actually do read the bible, some of them from beginning to end.

    I think Kerr-Mudd's position stands,

    Jan
    (by wild generalisation)






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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 12:45:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 15:13:29 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 12.01.2026 kl. 15.01 skrev Steve Hayes:

    I believe it was a Canadian diplomat who said, immediately after his
    invasion of Ukraine, "I used to think you were a master chess player,
    but now you're simply throwing dice."

    The difference, however, is that Trump's invasions, or threatened
    invasions, have been unprovoked.

    Putin's invasion of Ukraine may have been unjustified, but it wasn't
    unprovoked.

    How was he provoked before he took Crimea?

    Oh, I get it. It was the existance of Ukraine that provoked him.

    The eastward expansion of Nato, the coup against Yanukovich and the
    resulting attacks by extreme nationalists of the west on people in
    eastern Ukraine might possibly have had something to do with it.

    There could also have been an element of tit for tat -- Nato detached
    Kosovo from Serbia, so he would detach Crimea from Ukraine, for very
    similar reasons, only with a lot less bloodshed.

    Are you really incapable of seeing the moral high ground
    you claim wrt to Israel/Palestina is completely destroyed
    by your spouting of second hand Russian and Serbian propaganda?

    Yes, I know that South Afica is a very minor party in BRICS,
    which explains their white-washing of whatever Russia and China
    do in their nasty ways.

    You however could, and I think should, know better,

    Jan



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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 13:37:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 13/01/26 17:00, Hibou wrote:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
    iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
    the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" - <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=KJV>

    It would seem that God, far from being immutable, is as changeable as
    the men who make Him in their image - and has now - God help us! -
    become woke.

    It doesn't take much sampling of the Bible to discover that the God of
    the Bible changed personality over time. He was a real bastard in the
    early days, but gradually seems to have developed a sense of morality.

    I'm inclined to the theory that the Bible describes more than one god,
    with the original god going mythical after a while, or whatever it is
    that ex-gods do.

    They just fade away...

    Jan

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  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Tue Jan 13 14:15:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <10k4q2s$2um14$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    It doesn't take much sampling of the Bible to discover that the God of
    the Bible changed personality over time. He was a real bastard in the
    early days, but gradually seems to have developed a sense of morality.

    I'm inclined to the theory that the Bible describes more than one god,
    with the original god going mythical after a while, or whatever it is
    that ex-gods do.

    It's important to resist the natural temptation to take the order
    of events described in the bible as the order in which they were
    written. It's very mixed up, with the creation story of Genesis 1
    reflecting views from hundreds of years after some of the prophets.

    -- Richard
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