The 1968 anthology 'Farewell Fantastic Venus!" was a nostalgic
adieu to old Venus, put together after the first atmospheric
probes showed the reality.
It'd be interesting to track the evolution of Mars in popular
culture over time, as the accuracy of our astronomical observations
improved. The "canals" were always a mistranslation from
Schiaparelli's "canali," but I don't think the idea was conclusively
debunked 'til the 1900s. Nevertheless, Burroughs's Barsoom is a
dying, desert world, and Welles has implications of the same as the
motive for his Martian invasion.
On Mon, 2 Feb 2026 14:54:04 -0800, John Ames wrote:
It'd be interesting to track the evolution of Mars in popular
culture over time, as the accuracy of our astronomical observations improved. The "canals" were always a mistranslation from
Schiaparelli's "canali," but I don't think the idea was conclusively debunked 'til the 1900s. Nevertheless, Burroughs's Barsoom is a
dying, desert world, and Welles has implications of the same as the
motive for his Martian invasion.
Well, Wells before Welles, anyway. ;)
The earlier half of the 20th century was full of depictions of the
other planets as being like exotic versions of far-flung parts of
Earth -- none of the need for this ?space-suit? folderol. The plants
and animals might look like nothing on Earth, but they still were
basically plants and animals, of a sort. Basically an extension of the ?darkest Africa? and ?exotic Asia? stories of the earlier century.
The interplanetary settings let writers get crazier, though. For
instance, Barsoom no longer had a stable atmosphere, and a single air >factory pumped out enough breathable air for the whole planet. The far-
flung areas don't seem to be aware of this, and nobody ever got around
to creating a backup system -- when the air-maker and his apprentice >happened to die at once, the whole planet started smothering.
You can't set *that* level of nonsense in darkest Africa or the exotic >Orient.
On 03/02/26 10:01, John Ames wrote:
(Also reminds me of a children's book from the '50s - '60s that I
found once upon a time; that had Earth colonists landing on an
inhospitable and seemingly-deserted Mars, only for their children to
meet a couple Martian children, who along with the rest of their
civilization have retreated to underground cavern-cities or something
to that effect. I've never managed to track it down since...)
I've re-read that in the not-so-distant past, but I can't identify it. I remember that the Earth explorers sending out exploration vehicles, and
the Martian children had fun riding on top of them, in a game that anticipated cats riding on vacuum cleaners.
Perhaps some more details will come to mind in the next few days.
Verily, in article <10ndqrk$1pg48$2@dont-email.me>, did
ldo@nz.invalid deliver unto us this message:
The earlier half of the 20th century was full of depictions of the
other planets as being like exotic versions of far-flung parts of
Earth -- none of the need for this rCLspace-suitrCY folderol. The
plants and animals might look like nothing on Earth, but they still
were basically plants and animals, of a sort. Basically an
extension of the rCLdarkest AfricarCY and rCLexotic AsiarCY stories of the >> earlier century.
The interplanetary settings let writers get crazier, though. For
instance, Barsoom no longer had a stable atmosphere, and a single
air factory pumped out enough breathable air for the whole planet.
The far- flung areas don't seem to be aware of this, and nobody ever
got around to creating a backup system -- when the air-maker and his apprentice happened to die at once, the whole planet started
smothering.
You can't set *that* level of nonsense in darkest Africa or the
exotic Orient.
On 03/02/26 10:01, John Ames wrote:
(Also reminds me of a children's book from the '50s - '60s that I
found once upon a time; that had Earth colonists landing on an
inhospitable and seemingly-deserted Mars, only for their children to
meet a couple Martian children, who along with the rest of their
civilization have retreated to underground cavern-cities or something
to that effect. I've never managed to track it down since...)
I've re-read that in the not-so-distant past, but I can't identify it. I remember that the Earth explorers sending out exploration vehicles, and
the Martian children had fun riding on top of them, in a game that anticipated cats riding on vacuum cleaners.
Perhaps some more details will come to mind in the next few days.
* Peter Moylan <10lrdlo$12g6g$1@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Tue, 3 Feb 2026 10:57:43 +1100:
On 03/02/26 10:01, John Ames wrote:
(Also reminds me of a children's book from the '50s - '60s that I
found once upon a time; that had Earth colonists landing on an
inhospitable and seemingly-deserted Mars, only for their children to
meet a couple Martian children, who along with the rest of their
civilization have retreated to underground cavern-cities or something
to that effect. I've never managed to track it down since...)
I've re-read that in the not-so-distant past, but I can't identify it. I
remember that the Earth explorers sending out exploration vehicles, and
the Martian children had fun riding on top of them, in a game that
anticipated cats riding on vacuum cleaners.
Perhaps some more details will come to mind in the next few days.
The one I remember from childhood is an illustrated book where, well
what I remember of it now, the underground race would come out to eat
those on the surface
But where is the source of the Nile?
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere
in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is >rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
There is a river on the border of Namibia and Angola now labelled on
maps as Kunene, and got to be so labelled because early foreign
tourists waved vaguely at the river and asked what it was called, and
the locals replied "Kunene", meaning the left bank, as opposed to the
far side of the river in what is now called Angola, which was the
right bank.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere
in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is
rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is
rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
pt
In article <ii617m-aos3.ln1@newsauth.orpheusnet.co.uk>,
Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
On 24/02/2026 16:43, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >>>> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point >>>> where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean >>>> to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is >>>> rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY. >>>
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
pt
yes, but where does that lake get its water from?
Turtles!
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?"
She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put
on your phone?" She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes
after I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >>> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is >>> rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY. >>
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
Take the Mississippi for example, where Schoolcraft named Lake Itasca as
the "source"; yet many smaller tributaries feed Lake Itasca itself.
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?"
She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
On 2/24/2026 12:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >>>> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point >>>> where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean >>>> to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is >>>> rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY. >>>
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
Take the Mississippi for example, where Schoolcraft named Lake Itasca as
the "source"; yet many smaller tributaries feed Lake Itasca itself.
I've seen a qualification concerning whether there is a detectable
current running from a tributary across the lake to the exiting river.
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the
Nile delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook
somewhere in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they
mean to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct
answer is rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along
its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close to 'Pedophile'
Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put
on your phone?" She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes
after I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
Clue: Jeffrey Epstein...
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is
rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?"
She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
On 2/24/2026 10:57 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Fsvo "fairly close", I suppose - thank you.
But I see now why I had difficulties in getting it:
As I understand it, Ms. Giuffre was 17 at the time in question,
which in MyE is not sufficiently low to qualify.
Have I missed other cases, or are norms merely different elsewhere?
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his contemporaries ...Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 08:57:11 +0100, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:Then again, there is the probable legend that, as the USA expanded
I guess this kind of misinterpretation (or over-) is common: The
island Krakatoa which exploded about one and a half century ago was
apparently named thus when westerners asking the locals what the
name was, and got the answer "I don't know". In the local tongue
something like "kaga tau"
That kind of explanation is only plausible in areas taken over by
colonists unfamiliar with the language and culture of prior
inhabitants.
Since those inhabitants from before colonial times are still very much
in charge on that island, as in the rest of Indonesia, they would know
what name to use.
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:Apparently, "PDF" has some pronounciation other than the three
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?"
She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his
contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his
contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar, and
Mars books in B. Daltons. I bought and read them all. Pure pulp and I >loved them all.
Lynn
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons. I bought and read them all. Pure pulp
and I loved them all.
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his
contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar, and
Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp and I loved them all.
Lynn
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his
contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar, and
Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp and
I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of "Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-abliss
Then again, there is the probable legend that, as the USA expanded
West, the explorers asked each tribe in turn what the next tribe was
called. The tribes mostly used something like "The People" for
themselves, and something like "Those Sh*tHeads" for the others.
On 2/25/2026 7:22 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he >>>> read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how >>>> much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp >>> and I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of
"Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-a-abliss
I bought "Tarzan of the Apes" by Edgar Rice Burroughs published by Ballantine Books in 1972 for 95 cents:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?342428
Here is the cover:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/46/TRZNFTHPSQ1972.jpg
I lost all of my 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? ERB books in The Great Flood of 1989.
Lynn
Tarzan
Novel series by Edgar Rice Burroughs
tarzan.com
Tarzan is a series of 24 adventure novels written by Edgar Rice Burroughs and published between 1912 and 1966, followed by several novels either co-written by Burroughs, or officially authorized by his estate. There are also two works written by Burroughs especially for children that are not considered part of the main series Continued in Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org rC| wiki rC| William_S._Burroughs> WikipediaWell if Burroughs William had read pulps his work is far above that.
https://en.wikipedia.org rC| wiki rC| William_S._Burroughs
William S. Burroughs - Wikipedia
Excerpts from Naked Lunch were first published in the United States in 1958. The novel was initially rejected by City Lights Books, the publisher of Ginsberg's Howl, and Olympia Press publisher Maurice Girodias, who had published English-language novels in France that were controversial for their subjective views of sex and antisocial characters.
On 2/24/2026 10:57 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Fsvo "fairly close", I suppose - thank you.
But I see now why I had difficulties in getting it:
As I understand it, Ms. Giuffre was 17 at the time in question,
which in MyE is not sufficiently low to qualify.
Have I missed other cases, or are norms merely different elsewhere?
/Anders, Denmark
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 11:43:20 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the
Nile delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook
somewhere in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they
mean to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct
answer is rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along
its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
Also (I guess restating point 2):
4. What happens if the river is fed from another river with a
different name?
For consider: the rCLNilerCY river, under that name, ends (begins?) at Khartoum. Upstream from that, you have no rCLNilerCY as such, only the rCLWhite NilerCY and the rCLBlue NilerCY. (You can see the difference in the colours of the water where they join -- the separation continues quite
some distance downstream from that.)
As I remember, the rCLBlue NilerCY comes from somewhere in Ethiopia, where there are some tall cliffs that turn into a line of truly magnificent waterfalls in the rainy season; these are what feed the annual floods
that the ancient Egyptians depended on so crucially for their
agrarian-based society to survive in a desert.
Whereas the rCLWhite NilerCY is the source of water that has never dried
up in human history, so it has kept the Nile flowing no matter what.
LumleyrCOs journey seemed to consider the rCLWhite NilerCY as the continuation of the rCLNilerCY, for the purposes of determining the
source. This seems to me pretty arbitrary.
On 2/25/2026 5:58 AM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 10:57 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Fsvo "fairly close", I suppose - thank you.
But I see now why I had difficulties in getting it:
As I understand it, Ms. Giuffre was 17 at the time in question,
which in MyE is not sufficiently low to qualify.
Have I missed other cases, or are norms merely different elsewhere?
/Anders, Denmark
Norms vary, even within the US, where Age of Consent
can be 16, 17, or 18, depending on state. Some states
have 'Romeo and Juliet Laws', making sex legal as
young as 13, if the partners are close in age (typically
less than two years).
In article <10nod6g$1a8js$1@dont-email.me>,
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/25/2026 5:58 AM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 10:57 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Fsvo "fairly close", I suppose - thank you.
But I see now why I had difficulties in getting it:
As I understand it, Ms. Giuffre was 17 at the time in question,
which in MyE is not sufficiently low to qualify.
Have I missed other cases, or are norms merely different elsewhere?
/Anders, Denmark
Norms vary, even within the US, where Age of Consent
can be 16, 17, or 18, depending on state. Some states
have 'Romeo and Juliet Laws', making sex legal as
young as 13, if the partners are close in age (typically
less than two years).
Also known as "shotgun wedding" laws...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 16:57:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Apparently, "PDF" has some pronounciation other than the three
letters. One that sounds a lot like "pedo".
But not here.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 11:43:20 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
rCLsourcerCY, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere >> in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by rCLsourcerCY was rCLhighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromrCY. Because if they mean
to ask rCLwhere does the water come from?rCY, then the correct answer is >> rCLall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengthrCY.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
2. is most important for those who want to make lists of the world's
longest rivers, highest mountains, etc.
The main contenders were the Amazon, the Nile, and the
Mississippi/Missouri. I believe the Amazon won at the last count,
because a branch of its delta made it a bit longer than the Nile.
When my wife and I visited England some years ago we made a point of
visiting Wastwater in Cumbria, because my wife's grandmother had
always told her that it had the highest mountain, the deepest lake,
the smallest church, and the biggest liar (but he's dead).
Pics here: <https://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/uk-trip-10-may-2005-whitehaven-to-girvan/>
In article <10nod6g$1a8js$1@dont-email.me>,<snippo, topic is age of consent>
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
IIRC, the "R&J laws" were passed to prevent the application ofNorms vary, even within the US, where Age of Consent
can be 16, 17, or 18, depending on state. Some states
have 'Romeo and Juliet Laws', making sex legal as
young as 13, if the partners are close in age (typically
less than two years).
Also known as "shotgun wedding" laws...
On 2026-02-25 16:03, Paul S Person wrote:My point is that, for me, it is nowhere near close enough.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 16:57:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Apparently, "PDF" has some pronounciation other than the three
letters. One that sounds a lot like "pedo".
But not here.
It's a joke, son. It only has to be close enough.
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:out lies a lot more regularly.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 11:43:20 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/23/2026 9:05 PM, Lawrence DAOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 11:05:28 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
But where is the source of the Nile?
I remember a doco where Joanna Lumley started a journey from the Nile
delta, and went all the way up to what was supposed to be the
osourceo, which was an nondescript trickle of a little brook somewhere
in Sudan, I think it was.
Obviously what they meant by osourceo was ohighest upstream point
where at least *some* of the water comes fromo. Because if they mean
to ask owhere does the water come from?o, then the correct answer is
oall the tributaries and streams that feed into it along its lengtho.
'Source' is pretty ambiguous for most rivers.
1. Highest altitude stream that feeds into it? Permanent? Seasonal?
2. Furthest from the mouth? Missouri River needs to be renamed then.
3. Some are obvious, such as where a river runs from a large lake.
2. is most important for those who want to make lists of the world's
longest rivers, highest mountains, etc.
The main contenders were the Amazon, the Nile, and the
Mississippi/Missouri. I believe the Amazon won at the last count,
because a branch of its delta made it a bit longer than the Nile.
When my wife and I visited England some years ago we made a point of
visiting Wastwater in Cumbria, because my wife's grandmother had
always told her that it had the highest mountain, the deepest lake,
the smallest church, and the biggest liar (but he's dead).
Not as dead as one might hope. He's still in the White House spewing out lies. Actually, the Secretary for Homeland Insecurity appears to be spewing
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:The DVD for Cronenberg's film of /Naked Lunch/ has a contemporary-with-the-film's-release interview with Burroughs doing a
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DAOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his
contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar, and
Mars books in B. Daltons.a I bought and read them all.a Pure pulp and I
loved them all.
Lynn
I read those much earlier from public libraries.
Are your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of "Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
On 2/25/2026 7:22 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he >>>> read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how >>>> much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp >>> and I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of
"Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-a-abliss
I bought "Tarzan of the Apes" by Edgar Rice Burroughs published by Ballantine Books in 1972 for 95 cents:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?342428
Here is the cover:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/46/TRZNFTHPSQ1972.jpg
I lost all of my 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? ERB books in The Great Flood of 1989.
On 2/25/26 17:45, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 7:22 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin
with; he
read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell, >>>>> if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of >>>>> how
much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure
pulp and I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of
"Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-a-abliss
I bought "Tarzan of the Apes" by Edgar Rice Burroughs published by
Ballantine Books in 1972 for 95 cents:
-a-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?342428
Here is the cover:
-a-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/46/TRZNFTHPSQ1972.jpg
I lost all of my 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? ERB books in The Great Flood of 1989.
Lynn
-a-a-a-aI refer to a different but related Burroughs
-a-a-a-a"Naked Lunch" by William Seward. Burroughs.
-a-a-a-aEdgar Rice was before pulps but William Seward
was of an age to be reading pulps.
-a-a-a-aEdgar Rice may have been reading "Penny Dreadfuls".
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 7:22 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he >>>>> read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell, >>>>> if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how >>>>> much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp >>>> and I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of
"Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-a-abliss
I bought "Tarzan of the Apes" by Edgar Rice Burroughs published by
Ballantine Books in 1972 for 95 cents:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?342428
Here is the cover:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/46/TRZNFTHPSQ1972.jpg
I lost all of my 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? ERB books in The Great Flood of 1989.
I bought the Tarzan books when I was nine or ten years old, read them
over and over, along with a book or two from his other series.
Regrettably, I decided at age 12 that these were too "childish" and gave >them away. The only ERB I have left is his "Beyond the Farthest Star", >mentioned in an earlier thread.
In article <10nod6g$1a8js$1@dont-email.me>,
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
Norms vary, even within the US, where Age of Consent
can be 16, 17, or 18, depending on state. Some states
have 'Romeo and Juliet Laws', making sex legal as
young as 13, if the partners are close in age (typically
less than two years).
Also known as "shotgun wedding" laws...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:22:19 -0800, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he >>>> read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell,
if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how >>>> much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar, and
Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp and I >>> loved them all.
Lynn
I read those much earlier from public libraries.
Are your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of "Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
The DVD for Cronenberg's film of /Naked Lunch/ has a contemporary-with-the-film's-release interview with Burroughs doing a
fine spaced-out druggee act and Cronenberg visibly trying to stay as
far away from him (while remaining in frame) as possible.
I don't know about the book (never having read it) but the /film/
appears to be more about how the book was written (and the death of Burrough's wife) than anything else.
This is the Cronenberg film with the /really/ big bugs, BTW.
Verily, in article <n09skfF9a0vU1@mid.individual.net>, did >ted@loft.tnolan.com deliver unto us this message:
In article <10nod6g$1a8js$1@dont-email.me>,
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
Norms vary, even within the US, where Age of Consent
can be 16, 17, or 18, depending on state. Some states
have 'Romeo and Juliet Laws', making sex legal as
young as 13, if the partners are close in age (typically
less than two years).
Also known as "shotgun wedding" laws...
A shotgun wedding generally means that the bride is pregnant, not
something about either party's age.
It supposedly comes from a stereotype of an angry father forcing a man
to make an honest woman of his pregnant daughter, allegedly standing
there with a shotgun to make sure the groom didn't bolt from the
ceremony.
--[I broke the sig sep]
I never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 22:11:55 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2026-02-25 16:03, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 16:57:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Apparently, "PDF" has some pronounciation other than the three
letters. One that sounds a lot like "pedo".
But not here.
It's a joke, son. It only has to be close enough.
My point is that, for me, it is nowhere near close enough.
Maybe if it involved a bicycle and its pedals ...
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:That first one appears to be ... non-canonical.
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 7:22 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 2/25/26 14:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/25/2026 12:55 PM, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:05:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
But then, this just shows how Burroughs was a cut above a lot of his >>>>>>> contemporaries ...
Funnily enough that's how Burroughs got into the game to begin with; he >>>>>> read some of the slop that the pulps were printing and figured "hell, >>>>>> if *this* can get printed, I can do better..." A classic example of how >>>>>> much difference just *giving a damn* can make.
In the 1970s, you could buy most of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar,
and Mars books in B. Daltons.-a I bought and read them all.-a Pure pulp >>>>> and I loved them all.
Lynn
-a-a-a-a-aI read those much earlier from public libraries.
-a-a-a-a-aAre your sure that we are not talking about the Burroughs of >>>> "Naked Lunch",
"Nova", "Junkie" and other prefigurations of modern horror.
-a-a-a-a-abliss
I bought "Tarzan of the Apes" by Edgar Rice Burroughs published by
Ballantine Books in 1972 for 95 cents:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?342428
Here is the cover:
-a-a https://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/46/TRZNFTHPSQ1972.jpg
I lost all of my 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? ERB books in The Great Flood of 1989.
I bought the Tarzan books when I was nine or ten years old, read them
over and over, along with a book or two from his other series.
Regrettably, I decided at age 12 that these were too "childish" and gave >>them away. The only ERB I have left is his "Beyond the Farthest Star", >>mentioned in an earlier thread.
I still have a handful. Haven't read them in decades, however.
$ testa burroughs
artist title format location
Burroughs Corporation B7000/B6000 ALGOL Reference Manual Perfect A027 >Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10 Llana of Gathol soft A016
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 11 John Carter of Mars soft A016
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 6 The Master Mind of Mars soft A016 >Burroughs, Edgar Rice 7 A Fighting Man of Mars soft A016 >Burroughs, Edgar Rice 9 Synthetic Men of Mars soft A016
Burroughs, Edgar Rice Savage Pellucidar soft A016
Burroughs, Edgar Rice Science Fiction Classics hard A016
(final column is box number in storage).
On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 22:11:55 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2026-02-25 16:03, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 16:57:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/24/2026 4:45 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/24/2026 9:24 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
I went into a book store and asked the girl,
"Do you have the Prince Harry book, the one you can put on your phone?" >>>>>> She said, "Do you mean the PDF file?"
"No" I said, "that's his uncle."
Usually, your .sig gives rise to a chuckle or two; sometimes after
I've turned it around in my mind for a while.
But this one ... I just don't get it.
A hint for the humour-challenged, please?
/Anders, Denmark
In English, 'PDF File' sounds fairly close
to 'Pedophile'
Apparently, "PDF" has some pronounciation other than the three
letters. One that sounds a lot like "pedo".
But not here.
It's a joke, son. It only has to be close enough.
My point is that, for me, it is nowhere near close enough.
Maybe if it involved a bicycle and its pedals ...
(I havenrCOt read the Burroughs story in question -- rCLWarlord Of
MarsrCY, is it? -- but this description <https://barsoom.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Factory> is
illuminating.)
That is certainly the kind of theme that is unique to SF -- the
current inhabitants of an exotic world have regressed from the
original civilization that long ago set up certain life-critical
systems, which have started failing, so it is up to our heroes to
fix them and save the entire world.
Was Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven certainly
reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, rCLThe Ringworld
EngineersrCY.
On 2026-02-26 10:02, Paul S Person wrote:<snippo>
"pedal file" (file here being a tool using for filing metal) andMy point is that, for me, it is nowhere near close enough.
Not everyone gets every joke.
Maybe if it involved a bicycle and its pedals ...
Say what? How can "PDF file" possibly be pronounced in a way that would >suggest 'pedal'?
I pronounce "PDF file" as "pee dee eff file".Which, as I said above, does not work. For me.
On 23/02/26 11:05, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
(I havenrCOt read the Burroughs story in question -- rCLWarlord Of
MarsrCY, is it? -- but this description
<https://barsoom.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Factory> is
illuminating.)
That is certainly the kind of theme that is unique to SF -- the
current inhabitants of an exotic world have regressed from the
original civilization that long ago set up certain life-critical
systems, which have started failing, so it is up to our heroes to
fix them and save the entire world.
Was Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven certainly
reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, rCLThe Ringworld
EngineersrCY.
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least two >well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably familiar to
most readers of this thread. I can't name them because of a temporary
senior moment, but it will come back to me by tomorrow.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> writes:
On 23/02/26 11:05, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
(I havenrCOt read the Burroughs story in question -- rCLWarlord Of
MarsrCY, is it? -- but this description
<https://barsoom.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Factory> is
illuminating.)
That is certainly the kind of theme that is unique to SF -- the
current inhabitants of an exotic world have regressed from the
original civilization that long ago set up certain life-critical
systems, which have started failing, so it is up to our heroes to
fix them and save the entire world.
Was Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven certainly
reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, rCLThe Ringworld
EngineersrCY.
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least two
well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably familiar to
most readers of this thread. I can't name them because of a temporary
senior moment, but it will come back to me by tomorrow.
Heinlein. _Universe_ (1941) and _Common Sense_ (1941), combined by
1963 into _Orphans of the Sky_, and touched on in _Time Enough for Love_.
On 2/28/2026 12:44 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> writes:
On 23/02/26 11:05, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
(I havenrCOt read the Burroughs story in question -- rCLWarlord Of
MarsrCY, is it? -- but this description
<https://barsoom.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Factory> is
illuminating.)
That is certainly the kind of theme that is unique to SF -- the
current inhabitants of an exotic world have regressed from the
original civilization that long ago set up certain life-critical
systems, which have started failing, so it is up to our heroes to
fix them and save the entire world.
Was Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven certainly
reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, rCLThe Ringworld
EngineersrCY.
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least two
well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably familiar to
most readers of this thread. I can't name them because of a temporary
senior moment, but it will come back to me by tomorrow.
Heinlein. _Universe_ (1941) and _Common Sense_ (1941), combined by
1963 into _Orphans of the Sky_, and touched on in _Time Enough for Love_.
To which we add 'Non-Stop' (aka 'Starship). Brian Aldiss, 1958
That I knew, but also:
Aniara Swedish epic poem, 1956 Harry Martinson
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of rCLThe StarlostrCY TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of rCLThe StarlostrCY TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
On 2/28/2026 12:44 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> writes:
On 23/02/26 11:05, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
(I havenrCOt read the Burroughs story in question -- rCLWarlord Of
MarsrCY, is it? -- but this description
<https://barsoom.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Factory> is
illuminating.)
That is certainly the kind of theme that is unique to SF -- the
current inhabitants of an exotic world have regressed from the
original civilization that long ago set up certain life-critical
systems, which have started failing, so it is up to our heroes to
fix them and save the entire world.
Was Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven certainly
reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, rCLThe Ringworld
EngineersrCY.
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least two
well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably familiar to
most readers of this thread. I can't name them because of a temporary
senior moment, but it will come back to me by tomorrow.
Heinlein. _Universe_ (1941) and _Common Sense_ (1941), combined by
1963 into _Orphans of the Sky_, and touched on in _Time Enough for Love_.
To which we add 'Non-Stop' (aka 'Starship). Brian Aldiss, 1958
That I knew, but also:
Aniara Swedish epic poem, 1956 Harry Martinson
On 2/28/2026 2:20 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of rCLThe StarlostrCY TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
As someone who recently watched that show, the "Started out" period
ended before the production had finished hiring. Ellison pulled his
name and replaced it with his "I hate this production" pen name before
they had even finished re-writing his premiere episode.
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
On 2/28/2026 2:20 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of rCLThe StarlostrC? TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
As someone who recently watched that show, the "Started out" period
ended before the production had finished hiring. Ellison pulled his
name and replaced it with his "I hate this production" pen name before >>they had even finished re-writing his premiere episode.
This is true.
Interestingly, this was a show that was built around a new computerized >motion control technology. There's a demo reel explaining and demonstrating >the technology, and apparently making the demo reel was such a feat that
they weren't really able to duplicate the effort and the technology never >actually worked to the point where they were able to use it on the show.
I think production thought about the show only as a an effects gimmick >program, and didn't care so much about characters and plot. When the
effects gimmicks didn't work, they had nothing left. They had hired
Eliison for his name and didn't understand that he actually cared about >science fiction because they'd never known anyone to do that before.
We may still have access to a print of the demo reel although when we showed >it at Arisia a decade back it had turned pretty badly red. We can show it--
at Boskone if there's demand for it. It was distributed at the NAB back
in the era when Ellison was quitting.
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
-- Richard
On 2026-03-01, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
Obviously not true for premium cable or (premium) streaming.
I read years ago that we remember commericals from mediocre shows
better than commercials from shows which genuinely interest us. If
that's so, it does raise interesting questions about advertisers' requirements.
I think production thought about the show only as a an effects
gimmick program, and didn't care so much about characters and plot.
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>, Paul S
Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
On 2026-02-28 16:20, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of rCLThe StarlostrCY TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
Oh, is that what made him such a dickhead?
I posted this back in 2021, but I'll post it again for the cross-posters.
It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turns
out to be a jackass or worse.
My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter
Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his
hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short
stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned
and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.
Many years later I met and became friends with the son of another well- known S.F. author whose wife was a literary agent. I asked him if he had ever met Harlan Ellison. He said yes, he had, many times. I mentioned my encounter with him, and asked what he thought of the man.
I can't remember his exact reply, but it was along the line of "When you first meet him, he seems like an arrogant little prick trying to make up
for his short stature by being a total asshole, but deep down inside, he
IS an arrogant little prick trying to make up for his short stature by
being a total asshole.
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 09:40:48 -0500 (EST), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 2/28/2026 2:20 PM, Lawrence D|ore4raoOliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 22:50:13 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread.
Which in turn reminds me of |ore4+oThe Starlost|ore4? TV series, which started
out so promisingly ... and left Harlan Ellison permanently embittered
...
As someone who recently watched that show, the "Started out" period
ended before the production had finished hiring. Ellison pulled his
name and replaced it with his "I hate this production" pen name before
they had even finished re-writing his premiere episode.
This is true.
Interestingly, this was a show that was built around a new computerized
motion control technology. There's a demo reel explaining and demonstrating >> the technology, and apparently making the demo reel was such a feat that
they weren't really able to duplicate the effort and the technology never
actually worked to the point where they were able to use it on the show.
I think production thought about the show only as a an effects gimmick
program, and didn't care so much about characters and plot. When the
effects gimmicks didn't work, they had nothing left. They had hired
Eliison for his name and didn't understand that he actually cared about
science fiction because they'd never known anyone to do that before.
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
And having Ellison abandon it probably made it better.
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:46:37 -0500, The True Melissa wrote:
I read years ago that we remember commericals from mediocre shows
better than commercials from shows which genuinely interest us. If
that's so, it does raise interesting questions about advertisers'
requirements.
IrCOve often wondered why the ratings services didnrCOt directly measure viewership of ads, rather than bothering with the programs between
them at all. WouldnrCOt that give the sponsors a more accurate measure
of the value of their spend?
Maybe it would be *too* accurate, and tell them things they didnrCOt
want to know ...
On 3/1/2026 2:01 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:46:37 -0500, The True Melissa wrote:
I read years ago that we remember commericals from mediocre shows
better than commercials from shows which genuinely interest us. If
that's so, it does raise interesting questions about advertisers'
requirements.
IrCOve often wondered why the ratings services didnrCOt directly measure
viewership of ads, rather than bothering with the programs between
them at all. WouldnrCOt that give the sponsors a more accurate measure
of the value of their spend?
Maybe it would be *too* accurate, and tell them things they didnrCOt
want to know ...
Probably couldn't get those numbers.-a Different stations will put commercial breaks in at different times.-a Nielsen would have had to know exactly when those breaks were, which would have originally required the registered households to record that information in their diaries.-a Not gonna happen.
On 3/1/2026 6:59 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 3/1/2026 2:01 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:46:37 -0500, The True Melissa wrote:
I read years ago that we remember commericals from mediocre shows
better than commercials from shows which genuinely interest us. If
that's so, it does raise interesting questions about advertisers'
requirements.
IrCOve often wondered why the ratings services didnrCOt directly measure >>> viewership of ads, rather than bothering with the programs between
them at all. WouldnrCOt that give the sponsors a more accurate measure
of the value of their spend?
Maybe it would be *too* accurate, and tell them things they didnrCOt
want to know ...
Probably couldn't get those numbers.-a Different stations will put
commercial breaks in at different times.-a Nielsen would have had to know >> exactly when those breaks were, which would have originally required the
registered households to record that information in their diaries.-a Not
gonna happen.
Not for lack of trying - learn about ultrasonic beacons.
https://cybersnowden.com/ultrasound-tracking-beacons-in-mobile-ads/
Short version: TV ads can carry ultrasonic tags, which are picked
up by an app on your smartphone, and data sent to a tracking
agency.
pt
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
Only for people who can afford it.
Yeah, that makes sense. Was gonna say it was the plot on a couple "StarWas Burroughs the first to think up this plot? Larry Niven
certainly reused the idea in his second Ringworld novel, |ore4+oThe Ringworld Engineers|ore4_.
Before Niven (but after Burroughs), that theme appeared in at least
two well-known "multi-generation ship" novels that are probably
familiar to most readers of this thread. I can't name them because
of a temporary senior moment, but it will come back to me by
tomorrow.
Heinlein. _Universe_ (1941) and _Common Sense_ (1941), combined by
1963 into _Orphans of the Sky_, and touched on in _Time Enough for
Love_.
On 3/1/2026 2:01 PM, Lawrence DAOliveiro wrote:I have a very strange DVD (/Carol + 2/; the case claims it is from
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:46:37 -0500, The True Melissa wrote:
I read years ago that we remember commericals from mediocre shows
better than commercials from shows which genuinely interest us. If
that's so, it does raise interesting questions about advertisers'
requirements.
IAve often wondered why the ratings services didnAt directly measure
viewership of ads, rather than bothering with the programs between
them at all. WouldnAt that give the sponsors a more accurate measure
of the value of their spend?
Maybe it would be *too* accurate, and tell them things they didnAt
want to know ...
Probably couldn't get those numbers. Different stations will put
commercial breaks in at different times. Nielsen would have had to know >exactly when those breaks were, which would have originally required the >registered households to record that information in their diaries. Not >gonna happen.
On 2026-03-01, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:What part of "TV shows" did you not understand?
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
Obviously not true for premium cable or (premium) streaming.
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
On 3/1/26 11:49, Richard Tobin wrote:Both Pluto and Plex are free and offer TV channels -- and that usually
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
-- Richard
Only for people who can afford it. I haven't been able to afford
cable in many years. I watch broadcast station by and large though
I use some PBS streaming when the static is too bad.
On 02/03/26 06:49, Richard Tobin wrote:But are any of them wholly-owned subsidiaries of 1%-ers?
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>, Paul S
Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
Australia has two public TV networks, ABC and SBS, and initially both
were ad-free. Then a succession of governments forced SBS to get more
and more of its funding from ads.
ABC is still ad-free, apart from promotion of its own shows, but those
same governments stacked the board of directors with right-wing members,
to the point where it almost looked like the US Supreme Court. The ABC >journalists tend to lean to the left, so that was a recipe for internal >dissension that has badly damaged the network.
In article <10o2c4k$jmf3$2@dont-email.me>,Probably (including my comment preceded by ">>>>" above).
Bobbie Sellers <blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
Only for people who can afford it.
Are you perhaps imagining that the situation in your country
applies to the whole world?
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On Mon, 02 Mar 2026 08:50:57 -0800, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On my television set, when I go to "Channel Guide", channels 2 and 15
are PBS stations that do not carry ads. Channel 248 is HBO, which
does not carry ads. As far as I'm concerned, they are both channels
which carry ad-less "shows".
On Mon, 02 Mar 2026 08:50:57 -0800, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On my television set, when I go to "Channel Guide", channels 2 and 15
are PBS stations that do not carry ads. Channel 248 is HBO, which
does not carry ads. As far as I'm concerned, they are both channels
which carry ad-less "shows".
On 3/2/26 10:18, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 02 Mar 2026 08:50:57 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On my television set, when I go to "Channel Guide", channels 2 and 15
are PBS stations that do not carry ads. Channel 248 is HBO, which
does not carry ads. As far as I'm concerned, they are both channels
which carry ad-less "shows".
In San Francisco we have 4 Main PBS channels. The largest KQED-TV
has 4 sub channels having absorbed channel 54 with its own 4 separate >sub-channesls which now carries the same shows as the original channel 9. >They have commercials. Channel 60 has few commercials but they happen
from time to time. Channel 32 is frequently billed as the NASA Channel but
it runs classical music and dance from time to time. Since it became
the NASA
outlet I don't watch it often.
I used to be able to pay when working for cable connection.
Some of the stuff on specialized channels was good but there was a lot
of it.
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:44:52 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
On 2026-03-01, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials. The actual
program is of no importance whatsoever.
Obviously not true for premium cable or (premium) streaming.
What part of "TV shows" did you not understand?
On 3/2/2026 1:18 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 02 Mar 2026 08:50:57 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person-a <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On my television set, when I go to "Channel Guide", channels 2 and 15
are PBS stations that do not carry ads.-a Channel 248 is HBO, which
does not carry ads.-a As far as I'm concerned, they are both channels
which carry ad-less "shows".
Paul has a noticeable tendency to redefine words when his proclamations
are called into question.
In my English, a 'channel' is something that allows something to go
from one place to another ...
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026 12:35:10 -0800, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 3/2/26 10:18, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 02 Mar 2026 08:50:57 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 19:49:25 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <5pr8qk1drbapjmvv4fa4rm5o0hq8iod3qf@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
TV shows only exist to create audiences for commercials.
And yet we have channels with no commercials.
If it ain't broadcast, it ain't a channel.
Well, in the sense that the statement above would apply to, anyway.
On my television set, when I go to "Channel Guide", channels 2 and 15
are PBS stations that do not carry ads. Channel 248 is HBO, which
does not carry ads. As far as I'm concerned, they are both channels
which carry ad-less "shows".
In San Francisco we have 4 Main PBS channels. The largest KQED-TV
has 4 sub channels having absorbed channel 54 with its own 4 separate
sub-channesls which now carries the same shows as the original channel 9.
They have commercials. Channel 60 has few commercials but they happen >>from time to time. Channel 32 is frequently billed as the NASA Channel but
it runs classical music and dance from time to time. Since it became
the NASA
outlet I don't watch it often.
PBS does not air commercials that are what we commonly consider to be commercials. No soap, injury attorney, prescription drug, etc
commericals. However, they do acknowledge certain sponsors by name,
but they are usually foundations or summat like that.
The exception is Masterpiece productions that are funded by Viking
Cruises. (European river cruises) Viking's Torstein Hagen narrates
the Viking ads. At least, the Viking ads are inoffensive (to me) and Masterpiece is worth any inconvenience.
My television programming is via cable, but absent an antennae or
dish, that's the only way to get a signal.
I used to be able to pay when working for cable connection.
Some of the stuff on specialized channels was good but there was a lot
of it.
I'm lucky. The condominium complex I live in negotiated a deal with
Spectrum where each unit pays $9.11 a month for cable including over
100 channels, HBO, and internet. Very reasonable compared to
securing those services independently.
The system includes a box that allows me to record every program,
watch it later, and fast-forward through any commercial. The only programming I watch "live" is news and sports.
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