On Australian government web sites, "posted speed limit" seems to be a
lot more common. Perhaps that's because our speed limit signs are put on posts.
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Jan
[1] I once amused myself by doing a circle around one of the kind.
No effect. He stayed where he was.
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 a 23:37, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the
speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police catch
up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us if
the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach another country from Australia.
On 18/02/26 17:56, Hibou wrote:
Le 17/02/2026 a 14:21, Bertel Lund Hansen a ocrit :
Is "sign" as verb common?
The participle is common enough in the, er, speed-limit industry. Google
finds numerous examples of "signed speed limit", for instance, e.g.:
"A self-enforcing speed limit means that people are more likely to drive
within the signed speed limit because they feel it's the easiest and
safest speed to drive along that road" -
<https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-security/road-safety/safe-speeds>
On Australian government web sites, "posted speed limit" seems to be a
lot more common. Perhaps that's because our speed limit signs are put on posts.
Peter Moylan suggested that ...
On 18/02/26 17:56, Hibou wrote:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 14:21, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
Is "sign" as verb common?
The participle is common enough in the, er, speed-limit industry. Google >>> finds numerous examples of "signed speed limit", for instance, e.g.:
"A self-enforcing speed limit means that people are more likely to drive >>> within the signed speed limit because they feel it's the easiest and
safest speed to drive along that road" -
<https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-security/road-safety/safe-
speeds>
On Australian government web sites, "posted speed limit" seems to be a
lot more common. Perhaps that's because our speed limit signs are put on
posts.
Post no Bills.
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the
speed limit.
One case that made the headlines was a Norwegian who had
bought a new Lamborghini in Germany and tried it out on
the way home. The police could not keep up with him, but
they could - and did - phone the locals at the ferry terminal.
Yes, the vehicle was impounded.
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
change".
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway may
have seen the phenomenon: A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an
otherwise empty motorway, -locked in the middle lane-,
[1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police
catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us
if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to
reach another country from Australia.
On 2/18/2026 12:37 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over
the speed limit.
In Denmark, driving 100% over the speed limit qualifies as
"vanvidsk|+rsel" (lit. frenzied driving), carrying a penalty of
impoundment of the vehicle.
One case that made the headlines was a Norwegian who had bought a new Lamborghini in Germany and tried it out on the way home. The police
could not keep up with him, but they could - and did - phone the
locals at the ferry terminal. Yes, the vehicle was impounded.
Post no Bills. Tom, Dick, and Harry ... that's ok.
On 18/02/26 23:14, Silvano wrote:
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway may
have seen the phenomenon: A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an
otherwise empty motorway, -locked in the middle lane-,
[1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police
catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us
if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to
reach another country from Australia.
I believe there's a "hot pursuit" rule that would allow state politce to cross a state border when pursuing an offender. In practice, though, I suspect they just radio ahead to alert the police in the next state.
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few months' time.
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration >> and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading >> to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out >> along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into
Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few >> months' time.
So thererCOs no border control to enter France?
On 19/02/26 05:19, Snidely wrote:
Post no Bills. Tom, Dick, and Harry ... that's ok.
The version hear is "Bill posters will be prosecuted". Sometimes that's accompanie by things like "Bill Posters is innocent".
On 19 Feb 2026 at 08:31:03 GMT, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration >>> and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading >>> to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out >>> along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into
Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few >>> months' time.
So thererCOs no border control to enter France?
Depends where you're coming from and to. But generally, no rCo there's no routine border control between Schengen Area countries. The Schengen Agreement
(now incorporated into EU law) abolished systematic passport and customs checks at internal borders, so you can travel freely between member states without stopping at border posts.
On 18/02/26 23:14, Silvano wrote:
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway may
have seen the phenomenon: A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an
otherwise empty motorway, -locked in the middle lane-,
[1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police
catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us
if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to
reach another country from Australia.
I believe there's a "hot pursuit" rule that would allow state politce to cross a state border when pursuing an offender. In practice, though, I suspect they just radio ahead to alert the police in the next state.
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
> [...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration
> and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading
> to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out
> along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into
> Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few
> months' time.
So thererCOs no border control to enter France?
Le 19/02/2026 |a 02:06, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
There are a couple we've used that don't quite fit that description: Basel-Mulhouse-Freiburg, which is in France and jointly run by the
French and the Swiss,
and Geneva, which is in Switzerland and has an
exit in France.
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=47.60258&mlon=7.52117#map=13/47.60258/7.52117>
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=46.23733&mlon=6.11012#map=13/46.23733/6.11012>
Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration
and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor
leading to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier
post, into Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few months' time.
Silvano suggested that ...
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the >>> speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police catch >> up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us if
the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach another country from Australia.
It's more common for jets to land on raodways than to take off from
them.
Hibou posted:
There are a couple we've used that don't quite fit that description:
Basel-Mulhouse-Freiburg, which is in France and jointly run by the
French and the Swiss [...]
Preplagiarized again! I should have read this far before posting.
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> posted:
Silvano suggested that ...Le Clan des Siciliens has an important scene where a Boeing 747 lands on a highway.
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the >>>>> speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police catch >>>> up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us if
the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach
another country from Australia.
It's more common for jets to land on raodways than to take off from
them.
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> posted:
Silvano suggested that ...
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 a 23:37, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the >>> speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police catch >> up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach another country from Australia.
It's more common for jets to land on raodways than to take off from
them.
Le Clan des Siciliens has an important scene where a Boeing 747 lands on a highway.
On 19/02/26 07:49, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/18/2026 12:37 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over
the speed limit.
In Denmark, driving 100% over the speed limit qualifies as
"vanvidskorsel" (lit. frenzied driving), carrying a penalty of
impoundment of the vehicle.
One case that made the headlines was a Norwegian who had bought a new Lamborghini in Germany and tried it out on the way home. The police
could not keep up with him, but they could - and did - phone the
locals at the ferry terminal. Yes, the vehicle was impounded.
Speaking of impoundment: I recently heard that our police are crushing electric bikes whose riders have been caught riding dangerously.
On 2026-02-18 20:06, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 18/02/26 23:14, Silvano wrote:
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 a 23:37, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway may
have seen the phenomenon: A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an
otherwise empty motorway, -locked in the middle lane-,
[1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police
catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us
if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to
reach another country from Australia.
I believe there's a "hot pursuit" rule that would allow state politce to cross a state border when pursuing an offender. In practice, though, I suspect they just radio ahead to alert the police in the next state.
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
There are several airports that lie across the boder between the US and Canada, but none wuite so interesting as Whetstone International
Airport, which lies ALONG the border, with tie-downs on both sides of
the runway, some in Canada and some in the US.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whetstone_International_Airport>
There is a better known example at Geneva Airport.
It is entirly in Switzerland, but extends up to the French border.
There are entrances on both sides, each with their own customs services,
so nowadays just car rental agencies, (EU citizens only) [...]
<https://www.gva.ch/fr/Site/Passagers/Questions-Reponses-FAQ/secteur- france#b5cc2c09-b388-4c5a-9392-93a96c448b0f>
RJH hat am 19.02.2026 um 09:35 geschrieben:
On 19 Feb 2026 at 08:31:03 GMT, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration
and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading
to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out
along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into
Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few
months' time.
So thererCOs no border control to enter France?
Depends where you're coming from and to. But generally, no rCo there's no routine border control between Schengen Area countries. The Schengen Agreement
(now incorporated into EU law) abolished systematic passport and customs checks at internal borders, so you can travel freely between member states without stopping at border posts.
At the Geneva airport the right to enter the Schengen Area has already
been ascertained by the Swiss immigration officers before people go to
the French sector.
<athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> posted:
Silvano suggested that ...
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over the
speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police catch
up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach another country from Australia.
It's more common for jets to land on raodways than to take off from
them.
Le Clan des Siciliens has an important scene where a Boeing 747 lands on a highway.
Largo Winch, (the French action hero who is even sillier than Bond)
manages to do both.
That is, landing his private 747 on a motorway that is still under construction, and taking off from it again.
On paper only, the scene didn't make it into the Winch movie.
Too expensive, I guess,
Jan
On 18/02/26 23:14, Silvano wrote:
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 |a 23:37, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway may
have seen the phenomenon: A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an
otherwise empty motorway, -locked in the middle lane-,
[1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the police
catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell us
if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to
reach another country from Australia.
I believe there's a "hot pursuit" rule that would allow state politce to cross a state border when pursuing an offender. In practice, though, I suspect they just radio ahead to alert the police in the next state.
Snidely mentioned landing jets on roadways. The airport in Coolangatta
has a main runway that crosses a state border. And I have a vague memory
of hearing of a European airport that straddles the French-Swiss border.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
On 19/02/26 07:49, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/18/2026 12:37 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over
the speed limit.
In Denmark, driving 100% over the speed limit qualifies as
"vanvidsk|+rsel" (lit. frenzied driving), carrying a penalty of
impoundment of the vehicle.
One case that made the headlines was a Norwegian who had bought a new
Lamborghini in Germany and tried it out on the way home. The police
could not keep up with him, but they could - and did - phone the
locals at the ferry terminal. Yes, the vehicle was impounded.
Speaking of impoundment: I recently heard that our police are crushing
electric bikes whose riders have been caught riding dangerously.
A waste. In these parts they are sold, (by auction iirc)
unless they fail to meet some safety standard,
On 19 Feb 2026 at 08:31:03 GMT, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration >>> and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading >>> to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out >>> along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, into
Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few >>> months' time.
So thererCOs no border control to enter France?
Depends where you're coming from and to. But generally, no rCo there's no routine border control between Schengen Area countries. The Schengen Agreement
(now incorporated into EU law) abolished systematic passport and customs checks at internal borders, so you can travel freely between member states without stopping at border posts.
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) posted:
<athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> posted:
Silvano suggested that ...
Hibou hat am 18.02.2026 um 11:21 geschrieben:
Le 17/02/2026 a 23:37, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 18/02/26 07:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Anyone who has transverse Belgium at night on the motorway
may have seen the phenomenon:
A Belgian driving 80 km/h on an otherwise empty motorway,
-locked in the middle lane-, [1]
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50%
over the speed limit. [...]
... Perhaps counting on being in another country before the
police catch up with him.
That wouldn't work in a big country like Australia.
You can move to another state, though, and I hope Peter will tell
us if the NSW road police can follow someone into Victoria state.
If they can, even James Bond's can't probably fly long enough to reach another country from Australia.
It's more common for jets to land on raodways than to take off from them.
Le Clan des Siciliens has an important scene where a Boeing 747 lands on a
highway.
Largo Winch, (the French action hero who is even sillier than Bond)
Yes, I think I only managed to see Largo Winch once, and even then I don't think I made to the end of the episode.
On 19/02/2026 9:35 pm, RJH wrote:
On 19 Feb 2026 at 08:31:03 GMT, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss
immigration and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass
corridor leading to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire >>> desks. One drives out along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal >>> frontier post, into Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked
to do this again in a few months' time.
So there's no border control to enter France?
Depends where you're coming from and to. But generally, no rCo there's no routine border control between Schengen Area countries. The Schengen Agreement (now incorporated into EU law) abolished systematic passport
and customs checks at internal borders, so you can travel freely between member states without stopping at border posts.
The border posts are still there, and operate sometimes, usually to
catch Swiss residents doing too much shopping in French supermarkets,
which are cheaper.
One thing that surprised me recently was being subject to customs and immigration check at Geneva main railway station when departing for Lyon
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Silvano:
At the Geneva airport the right to enter the Schengen Area has
already been ascertained by the Swiss immigration officers before
people go to the French sector.
OK. I hadnrCOt internalised that Switzerland is completely part of
Schengen. I suppose there exists the occasional person with the right
to enter Switzerland but not France, but there canrCOt be many.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
Speaking of impoundment: I recently heard that our police are
crushing electric bikes whose riders have been caught riding
dangerously.
A waste. In these parts they are sold, (by auction iirc) unless they
fail to meet some safety standard,
Den 17.02.2026 kl. 15.11 skrev Kerr-Mudd, John:
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly >> low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
change".
It's only a few years ago that the max in Denmark went up to 130. Until
then it was 110, and still is in many parts, but now it needs to be signed.
Is "sign" as verb common?
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 15:21:40 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Den 17.02.2026 kl. 15.11 skrev Kerr-Mudd, John:
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly >>> low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
change".
It's only a few years ago that the max in Denmark went up to 130. Until
then it was 110, and still is in many parts, but now it needs to be signed. >>
Is "sign" as verb common?
Yes, although a lot of signing is done electronically ("digitally")
nowadays.
On 20/02/26 01:45, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i d|-ag de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Silvano:
At the Geneva airport the right to enter the Schengen Area has
already been ascertained by the Swiss immigration officers before
people go to the French sector.
OK. I hadnrCOt internalised that Switzerland is completely part of
Schengen. I suppose there exists the occasional person with the right
to enter Switzerland but not France, but there canrCOt be many.
There used to be many. The first time I was in Europe I was impressed by
the ease of crossing national borders ... except for France. At the Beligan-French border all cars were stopped and checked.
At the time it wasn't long since French spies had sunk the Rainbow
Warrior in New Zealand. Australia was seen as an ally of New Zealand, therefore an enemy of France, so I couldn't get into France without a visa.
On 19/02/26 21:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
Speaking of impoundment: I recently heard that our police are
crushing electric bikes whose riders have been caught riding
dangerously.
A waste. In these parts they are sold, (by auction iirc) unless they
fail to meet some safety standard,
Crushing sends a stronger message, especially to the father (of the
under-age rider) who bought the bike and disabled the speed limiter.
On 20/02/26 01:45, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao. lb doag de m0 Feabhra, scr0obh Silvano:
At the Geneva airport the right to enter the Schengen Area has
already been ascertained by the Swiss immigration officers before
people go to the French sector.
OK. I hadn't internalised that Switzerland is completely part of
Schengen. I suppose there exists the occasional person with the right
to enter Switzerland but not France, but there can't be many.
There used to be many. The first time I was in Europe I was impressed by
the ease of crossing national borders ... except for France. At the Beligan-French border all cars were stopped and checked.
At the time it wasn't long since French spies had sunk the Rainbow
Warrior in New Zealand. Australia was seen as an ally of New Zealand, therefore an enemy of France, so I couldn't get into France without a visa.
Steve Hayes formulated the question :
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 15:21:40 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Den 17.02.2026 kl. 15.11 skrev Kerr-Mudd, John:
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an
annoyingly
low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
change".
It's only a few years ago that the max in Denmark went up to 130.
Until then it was 110, and still is in many parts, but now it needs
to be signed.
Is "sign" as verb common?
Yes, although a lot of signing is done electronically ("digitally")
nowadays.
That's becoming an accurate statement in the context of roadways, too, Started quite awhile ago.
On 19/02/2026 10:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
On 19/02/26 07:49, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
On 2/18/2026 12:37 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
Occasionally being passed by a Dutch driver travelling at 50% over
the speed limit.
In Denmark, driving 100% over the speed limit qualifies as
"vanvidskorsel" (lit. frenzied driving), carrying a penalty of
impoundment of the vehicle.
One case that made the headlines was a Norwegian who had bought a new
Lamborghini in Germany and tried it out on the way home. The police
could not keep up with him, but they could - and did - phone the
locals at the ferry terminal. Yes, the vehicle was impounded.
Speaking of impoundment: I recently heard that our police are crushing
electric bikes whose riders have been caught riding dangerously.
A waste. In these parts they are sold, (by auction iirc)
unless they fail to meet some safety standard,
Maybe the auction price would not cover the costs of administration and
a detailed safety inspection.
Add to that, the risk of someone being harmed by a defect that was missed.
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1]
Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
On Wed, 18 Feb 2026 22:21:36 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower
than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly
low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1] Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
I vaguely recall (it was a long journey across Germany) that they had
the odd 80 on a straight clear road for maybe 500m before changing
back again; just in case of wind, or to catch dozy drivers?
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
AFAIK it is a political speed limitation, nothing to do with you.
(seen the same in the Netherlands)
It is those in charge of road maintenance
telling those in charge of budgets
that they really really need more money to do their thing.
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2026 22:21:36 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:I vaguely recall (it was a long journey across Germany) that they had
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an annoyingly >>>> low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop climate
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a >>>>>>> particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law >>>>>> against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower >>>>> than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a >>>>> traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1]
Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
the odd 80 on a straight clear road for maybe 500m before changing
back again; just in case of wind, or to catch dozy drivers?
AFAIK it is a political speed limitation, nothing to do with you.
(seen the same in the Netherlands)
It is those in charge of road maintenance
telling those in charge of budgets
that they really really need more money to do their thing.
In theory their automated road quality measuring system
has detected a stretch of road that is too bad
to drive on safely on at speed.
(some of them have a sub-sign that says in case of rain)
AFAIK again, these speed limitations on short strectches
are universally ignored.
Jumping on the brakes on the Autobahn at such a speed sign
would be really unsafe.
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license
by taking a written test - no road test required.
On 2/26/2026 7:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2026 22:21:36 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:I vaguely recall (it was a long journey across Germany) that they had
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a >>>>>>> particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law >>>>>> against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower
than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a >>>>> traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
annoyingly low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop >>>> climate change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1]
Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
the odd 80 on a straight clear road for maybe 500m before changing
back again; just in case of wind, or to catch dozy drivers?
AFAIK it is a political speed limitation, nothing to do with you.
(seen the same in the Netherlands)
It is those in charge of road maintenance
telling those in charge of budgets
that they really really need more money to do their thing.
In theory their automated road quality measuring system
has detected a stretch of road that is too bad
to drive on safely on at speed.
(some of them have a sub-sign that says in case of rain)
AFAIK again, these speed limitations on short strectches
are universally ignored.
Jumping on the brakes on the Autobahn at such a speed sign
would be really unsafe.
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license
by taking a written test - no road test required.
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
We've come a long way. These days they make it so difficult it's hard to
even pass the written test, let alone the driving test.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/26/2026 7:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2026 22:21:36 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:I vaguely recall (it was a long journey across Germany) that they had
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a >> >>>>>>> particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law >> >>>>>> against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower
than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a >> >>>>> traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
annoyingly low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop >> >>>> climate change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1]
Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
the odd 80 on a straight clear road for maybe 500m before changing
back again; just in case of wind, or to catch dozy drivers?
AFAIK it is a political speed limitation, nothing to do with you.
(seen the same in the Netherlands)
It is those in charge of road maintenance
telling those in charge of budgets
that they really really need more money to do their thing.
In theory their automated road quality measuring system
has detected a stretch of road that is too bad
to drive on safely on at speed.
(some of them have a sub-sign that says in case of rain)
AFAIK again, these speed limitations on short strectches
are universally ignored.
Jumping on the brakes on the Autobahn at such a speed sign
would be really unsafe.
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
This perpetuated bad driving habits.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license
by taking a written test - no road test required.
Yes, but they had to be accompanied for a fixed period
in their driving, for a year, if memory serves.
They were not allowed to drive alone,
Jan--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
Den 26.02.2026 kl. 19.30 skrev Cryptoengineer:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
I took a taxi in Brussels about that time. The driver went 100 km/h
through a narrow road with parked cars on both sides. An unforgettable experience.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/26/2026 7:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2026 22:21:36 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:I vaguely recall (it was a long journey across Germany) that they had
On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:55:05 +0100
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 19:08:50 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:IIRC on last years trip the motorways in The Netherlands had an
On 2026-02-15 12:36, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
For me I would regard a violator as someone who habitually breaks a >>>>>>>>> particular law, such as drinving at or below the speed limit.
When I read that, my first thought was to ask you if France has a law >>>>>>>> against driving at or below the speed limit.
Well, this went off-topic rather quick.
Might as well go with it then: in Belgium it's forbidden to drive slower
than 70 km/h on the highways (maximum is 120 km/h), unless there's a >>>>>>> traffic jam or explicit signs saying you must drive slower.
annoyingly low max, (100?) just recently imposed - I presume "to stop >>>>>> climate change".
Nope,
it is about nitrogen emission and nitrogen deposition further on. [1] >>>>> Anyway, for a country the size of Holland 100 is enough.
25 km at 100 km/h = 15 minutes.
the odd 80 on a straight clear road for maybe 500m before changing
back again; just in case of wind, or to catch dozy drivers?
AFAIK it is a political speed limitation, nothing to do with you.
(seen the same in the Netherlands)
It is those in charge of road maintenance
telling those in charge of budgets
that they really really need more money to do their thing.
In theory their automated road quality measuring system
has detected a stretch of road that is too bad
to drive on safely on at speed.
(some of them have a sub-sign that says in case of rain)
AFAIK again, these speed limitations on short strectches
are universally ignored.
Jumping on the brakes on the Autobahn at such a speed sign
would be really unsafe.
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
This perpetuated bad driving habits.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license
by taking a written test - no road test required.
Yes, but they had to be accompanied for a fixed period
in their driving, for a year, if memory serves.
They were not allowed to drive alone,
On 2026-02-26 14:53, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 26.02.2026 kl. 19.30 skrev Cryptoengineer:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
I took a taxi in Brussels about that time. The driver went 100 km/h
through a narrow road with parked cars on both sides. An unforgettable
experience.
I recall someone telling me that Belgians did not need to pass a driving test to get a license. That was sometime between '61 and '66.
On 19 Feb 2026 at 08:31:03 GMT, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Hibou:Depends where you're coming from and to. But generally, no rCo there's no routine border control between Schengen Area countries. The Schengen Agreement
[...] Unless they've changed the layout, at Geneva, after Swiss immigration >>> and baggage reclaim, there's a rather poorly signed glass corridor leading >>> to the French Sector, which is just a set of car-hire desks. One drives out >>> along the Route douani|?re, bypassing the normal frontier post, intoSo thererCOs no border control to enter France?
Ferney-Voltaire and France. Indeed, we are booked to do this again in a few >>> months' time.
(now incorporated into EU law) abolished systematic passport and customs checks at internal borders, so you can travel freely between member states without stopping at border posts.
On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 13:30:47 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license
by taking a written test - no road test required.
My father was born in 1943 and my mother in 1950. My father could just
pickup a license, whatever he wanted C, D, ... That's what everybody
did; my grandfather could - in theory - drive a lorry. My mother told me
she had to do a written exam and then pickup the license she wanted.
We've come a long way. These days they make it so difficult it's hard to
even pass the written test, let alone the driving test.
The high schools here often offer a "Driver's Ed" course, but most of
the students already have been taught to drive by a relative or family >friend. The students sign up for the course because many insurance
companies offer discounts to new drivers that have taken a course.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
This perpetuated bad driving habits.
I'm not aware of knowing anyone who didn't learn to drive from a
family member or friend. My aunt taught me to drive, and my wife's
brother taught her how to drive.
Den 26.02.2026 kl. 20.59 skrev s|b:
We've come a long way. These days they make it so difficult it's hard to even pass the written test, let alone the driving test.
Diffcult - and expensive in Denmark. My grandsons paid 18'000 kr.
($2'900) for the training and license, and they weren't slow learners.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 21:39:03 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.[-]
Lodder) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/26/2026 7:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
This perpetuated bad driving habits.
I'm not aware of knowing anyone who didn't learn to drive from a
family member or friend. My aunt taught me to drive, and my wife's
brother taught her how to drive.
The high schools here often offer a "Driver's Ed" course, but most of
the students already have been taught to drive by a relative or family friend. The students sign up for the course because many insurance
companies offer discounts to new drivers that have taken a course.
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 21:39:03 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
[-]On 2/26/2026 7:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
In Belgium things were scruffier but faster.
Universal motorway speed limit of 120 km/h there,
unless indicated otherwise.
Especially in Wallonia road quality used to be notoriously bad.
You could see that you had crossed the language border
by feeling their 'nids de poule'. (potholes)
It has been much improved though,
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were
regarded as the worst drivers in Europe. Not the
most aggressive, not the meanest, just the worst.
Back then? AFAIK the root of the problem
was that Belgium allowed new drivers to learn driving
from family members by 'accompanied driving',
so from a family member sitting beside them.
This perpetuated bad driving habits.
I'm not aware of knowing anyone who didn't learn to drive from a
family member or friend. My aunt taught me to drive, and my wife's
brother taught her how to drive.
The high schools here often offer a "Driver's Ed" course, but most of
the students already have been taught to drive by a relative or family friend. The students sign up for the course because many insurance companies offer discounts to new drivers that have taken a course.
European teenagers were quite jealous of their American contemporaries
who were driving cars as a matter of course.
They learned about it from Hollywood, comics,
and from pulp novels such as 'The Hardy Boys'.
In Euroe there was an age limit of 18, mostly,
and most parents could not afford a car anyway
in the general poverty after the end of the war.
But we don't have to go to driving school. You can appoint up to 2
teachers (usually it's the parents). I think they have to follow a
short (couple hours) teaching program. The learning driver can only
drive with one of them present. If they fail the exam twice, then
they have to go to driving school (6 hours, I think, plus the exam).
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the
worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest,
just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a written
test - no road test required.
18: Eligible for a full, unrestricted driver's license.
WOW -- I didn't know there was an "unrestricted" license, or age 18
was involved. In retrospect, I can attest that I was too young at 14
to drive very safely, and many of my friends were too immature at 16
for the late-night driving we did with full cars.
On 27/02/26 16:36, Rich Ulrich wrote:
18: Eligible for a full, unrestricted driver's license.
WOW -- I didn't know there was an "unrestricted" license, or age 18
was involved.-a In retrospect, I can attest that I was too young at 14
to drive very safely, and many of my friends were too immature at 16
for the late-night driving we did with full cars.
There have been a number of studies that show that you become fit to
drive at about age 25. It's a question of brain development. Younger
drivers take too many risks.
On 27/02/26 05:30, Cryptoengineer wrote:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the
worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest,
just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a written
test - no road test required.
I don't know whether it has changed now, but the first time I visited Ireland I was told that the majority of car drivers in Ireland are unlicensed. Apparently there was a loophole in the law that allowed
people to keep a learner's permit for years on end.
The rule in this state is that a learner drive, after passing the test
for a learner's permit, has to log 200 hours of driving before applying
for a licence test. The log book must include a certain number of hours
of night driving, a certain number of freeway driving, and so on.
Nobody can afford to pay a qualified driving instructor for that many
hours, so in practice they have to be taught by bad drivers, which is
where they pick up all the bad habits of their parents. I have seen
learners doing really bad tailgating. Why doesn't the instructor
correct this? Because the father is also a tailgater.
Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Peter Moylan:
On 27/02/26 05:30, Cryptoengineer wrote:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the
worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest,
just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a written test - no road test required.
I don't know whether it has changed now, but the first time I visited Ireland I was told that the majority of car drivers in Ireland are unlicensed. Apparently there was a loophole in the law that allowed
people to keep a learner's permit for years on end.
Yep, still there:
https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/life-long-learners-more-than-11600-motorists-still-on-provisional-permits-after-20-years/42255567.html
Compared to other countries IrCOve been, driving is fairly pleasant here; very
little road rage, unusual to be tailgated too aggressively, other road users helpful about letting one merge and so on.
190 road deaths last year in the
Republic, 3.45 per 100k population, not Norway, but fairly good in the grand scheme of things. It appears not to matter!
Ar an t-ocht. lb is fiche de m0 Feabhra, scr0obh Peter Moylan:-11600-motorists-still-on-provisional-permits-after-20-years/42255567.html
On 27/02/26 05:30, Cryptoengineer wrote:
I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the
worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest,
just the worst.
At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a written test - no road test required.
I don't know whether it has changed now, but the first time I visited Ireland I was told that the majority of car drivers in Ireland are unlicensed. Apparently there was a loophole in the law that allowed
people to keep a learner's permit for years on end.
Yep, still there:
https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/life-long-learners-more-than
Compared to other countries I've been, driving is fairly pleasant here; very little road rage, unusual to be tailgated too aggressively, other road users helpful about letting one merge and so on. 190 road deaths last year in the Republic, 3.45 per 100k population, not Norway, but fairly good in the grand scheme of things. It appears not to matter!
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
[...] Compared to other countries I've been, driving is fairly pleasant here; very little road rage, unusual to be tailgated too aggressively, other road users helpful about letting one merge and so on. 190 road deaths last year in the Republic, 3.45 per 100k population, not Norway, but fairly good in the grand scheme of things. It appears not to matter!
Here is a comparative map for EU countries. <https://localfocus.dpgmedia.net/685cd53e317d8>
Some remarks:
It would seem that you can be safer by crossing the Irish land border.
I guess that this is just an artifact caused by lumping all of Britain together.
Belgians side with the French, not with the Dutch, as usual.
Luxembourg is also safer than Belgium, siding with the Germans.
And the Balkans are to be avoided if at all possible,
Ah, we all have to die some time!
Le 28/02/2026 |a 14:46, Aidan Kehoe a |-crit :
Ah, we all have to die some time!
I'm just surprised there are so few injuries and deaths, given that the road network is a machine mostly lacking a guard rail, and that the operators of vehicles must pay continuous attention to what they are doing.
This is interesting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate>
Denmark 2.6 / 100,000 / year
France 4.9
Germany 3.3
Ireland 3.0
Netherlands 4.1
UK 2.6
USA 14.2
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Peter Moylan:-11600-motorists-still-on-provisional-permits-after-20-years/42255567.html
> On 27/02/26 05:30, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> >
> > I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
> >
> > Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the
> > worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest,
> > just the worst.
> >
> > At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a written >> > > test - no road test required.
>
> I don't know whether it has changed now, but the first time I visited
> Ireland I was told that the majority of car drivers in Ireland are
> unlicensed. Apparently there was a loophole in the law that allowed
> people to keep a learner's permit for years on end.
Yep, still there:
https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/life-long-learners-more-than
Compared to other countries I've been, driving is fairly pleasant here; very >> little road rage, unusual to be tailgated too aggressively, other road users >> helpful about letting one merge and so on. 190 road deaths last year in the >> Republic, 3.45 per 100k population, not Norway, but fairly good in the grand >> scheme of things. It appears not to matter!
Here is a comparative map for EU countries. <https://localfocus.dpgmedia.net/685cd53e317d8>
Some remarks:
It would seem that you can be safer by crossing the Irish land border.
I guess that this is just an artifact
caused by lumping all of Britain together.
Belgians side with the French, not with the Dutch, as usual.
Luxembourg is also safer than Belgium, siding with the Germans.
And the Balkans are to be avoided if at all possible,
Jan
Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
> Le 28/02/2026 |a 14:46, Aidan Kehoe a |-crit :
> >
> > Ah, we all have to die some time!
>
> I'm just surprised there are so few injuries and deaths, given that the road
> network is a machine mostly lacking a guard rail, and that the operators of
> vehicles must pay continuous attention to what they are doing.
Our figures in 1978 were horrific in retrospect, over three times the deaths (628) on a 3.3 million population.
> This is interesting:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate>
>
> Denmark 2.6 / 100,000 / year
> France 4.9
> Germany 3.3
> Ireland 3.0
> Netherlands 4.1
> UK 2.6
>
> USA 14.2
Between Micronesia (or Malaysia, if you want a large country) and Syria. Australia, large and sparsely-settled, does very well at 4.5, better than France.
Den 28.02.2026 kl. 07.48 skrev Peter Moylan:
The rule in this state is that a learner drive, after passing the test
for a learner's permit, has to log 200 hours of driving before applying
for a licence test. The log book must include a certain number of hours
of night driving, a certain number of freeway driving, and so on.
The reason that a Danish license is so exprensive, is that there are
several mandatory, practical courses the learner has to take. One such
is driving on slippery surfaces.
Nobody can afford to pay a qualified driving instructor for that many hours, so in practice they have to be taught by bad drivers, which is where they pick up all the bad habits of their parents. I have seen learners doing really bad tailgating. Why doesn't the instructor
correct this? Because the father is also a tailgater.
We can hope that with adaptive speed controls we'll see fewer
tailgaters. I don't see them often in Denmark, and two of them that I experienced reacted positively on my signal: three quick, light steps on
the brake.
Le 28/02/2026 |a 14:46, Aidan Kehoe a |-crit :
Ah, we all have to die some time!
I'm just surprised there are so few injuries and deaths, given that the
road network is a machine mostly lacking a guard rail, and that the operators of vehicles must pay continuous attention to what they are doing.
This is interesting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic- related_death_rate>
Denmark 2.6 / 100,000 / year
France 4.9
Germany 3.3
Ireland 3.0
Netherlands 4.1
UK 2.6
USA 14.2
Le 28/02/2026 a 14:46, Aidan Kehoe a ocrit :
Ah, we all have to die some time!
I'm just surprised there are so few injuries and deaths, given that the
road network is a machine mostly lacking a guard rail, and that the operators of vehicles must pay continuous attention to what they are doing.
This is interesting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Denmark 2.6 / 100,000 / year
France 4.9
Germany 3.3
Ireland 3.0
Netherlands 4.1
UK 2.6
USA 14.2
We can hope that with adaptive speed controls we'll see fewer
tailgaters. I don't see them often in Denmark, and two of them that I
experienced reacted positively on my signal: three quick, light steps
on the brake.
That's exactly what I do. The taps on the brake pedal are enough to
light up the brake lights, but not enough to engage the brakes.
If they don't back off, I just disengage the cruise control or take my
foot off the accelerator and just let it slow down relatively gradually.
Thanks for the link. I am surprised that Canada is 4.7/100,000.
I shouldn't be, considering the number of boneheaded moves I see on the road.
On 2/28/2026 5:57 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
-a Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Peter Moylan:-11600-motorists-still-on-provisional-permits-after-20-
-a > On 27/02/26 05:30, Cryptoengineer wrote:
-a > >
-a > > I lived in Belgium in the 70s.
-a > >
-a > > Back then, aside from road quality, Belgians were regarded as the >>> -a > > worst drivers in Europe. Not the most aggressive, not the meanest, >>> -a > > just the worst.
-a > >
-a > > At that time, a teenager could get a full license by taking a
written
-a > > test - no road test required.
-a >
-a > I don't know whether it has changed now, but the first time I
visited
-a > Ireland I was told that the majority of car drivers in Ireland are
-a > unlicensed. Apparently there was a loophole in the law that allowed >>> -a > people to keep a learner's permit for years on end.
Yep, still there:
https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/life-long-learners-
more-than
years/42255567.html
Compared to other countries I've been, driving is fairly pleasant
here; very
little road rage, unusual to be tailgated too aggressively, other
road users
helpful about letting one merge and so on. 190 road deaths last year
in the
Republic, 3.45 per 100k population, not Norway, but fairly good in
the grand
scheme of things. It appears not to matter!
Here is a comparative map for EU countries.
<https://localfocus.dpgmedia.net/685cd53e317d8>
Some remarks:
It would seem that you can be safer by crossing the Irish land border.
I guess that this is just an artifact
caused by lumping all of Britain together.
Belgians side with the French, not with the Dutch, as usual.
Luxembourg is also safer than Belgium, siding with the Germans.
And the Balkans are to be avoided if at all possible,
Jan
Cool map. From Wikipedia:
Auto related deaths per year per million
Norway 21
UK 26
Hungary 55 (which doesn't match the map)
Romania 96
Russia 106
US 142
Zimababwe 412
I guess strict training and testing pays off.
US states vary drastically, from 57 in Rhode
Island to 262 in Mississippi.
BUT: A lot of this is affected by differing
rates of car usage. If we scale deaths by
miles driven, the data changes. Only a few
countries supply that info.
Norway 30
UK 38
US 69
Still, I'd like to see the US have stricter
training requirements.
Le 28/02/2026 |a 06:56, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 27/02/26 16:36, Rich Ulrich wrote:
18: Eligible for a full, unrestricted driver's license.
WOW -- I didn't know there was an "unrestricted" license, or age
18 was involved. In retrospect, I can attest that I was too
young at 14 to drive very safely, and many of my friends were too
immature at 16 for the late-night driving we did with full cars.
There have been a number of studies that show that you become fit
to drive at about age 25. It's a question of brain development.
Younger drivers take too many risks.
I've heard that number for brain maturity. I think it should apply to
voting, too. Unfortunately, the trend here is in the opposite
direction, in a kind of gerrymandering by the parties who would
benefit.
Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! Feabhra, scr|!obh Hibou:
This is interesting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate>
Denmark 2.6 / 100,000 / year France 4.9 Germany 3.3 Ireland 3.0
Netherlands 4.1 UK 2.6
USA 14.2
Between Micronesia (or Malaysia, if you want a large country) and
Syria. Australia, large and sparsely-settled, does very well at 4.5,
better than France.
On 28/02/26 18:02, Hibou wrote:
I've heard that number for brain maturity [25 years old]. I think it should apply to
voting, too. Unfortunately, the trend here is in the opposite
direction, in a kind of gerrymandering by the parties who would
benefit.
The voting age here was 21 until enough conscripts were killed in the
Vietnam war. Then young people took up the argument "if we're old enough
to be sent off to be killed, we should be old enough to vote".
Not long after that, those who could vote voted to pull Australia out of
the war, and release the conscientious objectors from prison.
Le 01/03/2026 a 00:50, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 28/02/26 18:02, Hibou wrote:
I've heard that number for brain maturity [25 years old].
I think it should apply to voting, too. Unfortunately, the trend here
is in the opposite direction, in a kind of gerrymandering by the
parties who would benefit.
The voting age here was 21 until enough conscripts were killed in the Vietnam war. Then young people took up the argument "if we're old enough
to be sent off to be killed, we should be old enough to vote".
It's a powerful argument.
Le 01/03/2026 a 00:50, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 28/02/26 18:02, Hibou wrote:
I've heard that number for brain maturity [25 years old]. I think it
should apply to
voting, too. Unfortunately, the trend here is in the opposite
direction, in a kind of gerrymandering by the parties who would
benefit.
The voting age here was 21 until enough conscripts were killed in the
Vietnam war. Then young people took up the argument "if we're old enough
to be sent off to be killed, we should be old enough to vote".
It's a powerful argument.
Not long after that, those who could vote voted to pull Australia out of
the war, and release the conscientious objectors from prison.
Sunday, Hibou murmurred ...
Le 01/03/2026 |a 00:50, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
On 28/02/26 18:02, Hibou wrote:
I've heard that number for brain maturity [25 years old]. I think it
should apply to
voting, too. Unfortunately, the trend here is in the opposite
direction, in a kind of gerrymandering by the parties who would
benefit.
The voting age here was 21 until enough conscripts were killed in the
Vietnam war. Then young people took up the argument "if we're old enough >>> to be sent off to be killed, we should be old enough to vote".
It's a powerful argument.
Also used in the US around 1970.
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