From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Aye asked a form of ChatGPT about:

Daojia.
When first categorized among the Jia,
did historians include or exclude texts
that might be viewed as folk religions,
shamanism or Jiao?

ChatGPT said:
Early imperial scholars used Daojia (oUoo<|)
mainly as a literati category, not a label for popular religion.

How it started
In the Han dynasty, historians like Sima Tan and Sima Qian
grouped certain thinkers into rCLDaojia.rCY
The category focused on philosophical textsrCo
Laozi, Zhuangzi, and works with similar themes.
The aim was to map out intellectual lineages, not religious practice.

What they included
Writings on cosmology, governance through non-action,
naturalness, and metaphysics.
Elite philosophical works circulating among scholars.

What they excluded
Folk religion, shamanism, spirit-medium practices,
local cults, and Jiao (oa<) ritual traditions were not treated as Daojia.
Those belonged to other spheres:
local cult activity, rCLfangshirCY technical arts, or ritual specialists.

Why the separation
Philosophers were seen as offering doctrines for rulers and thinkers. Popular religious practice was viewed as something differentrCo
sometimes tolerated, sometimes dismissed, but not part of
the intellectual rCLschools.rCY
Later, the religious dimensions of Daoism grew,
but the original Daojia label was philosophical,
not religious, and it did not fold in folk or
shamanic traditions when first created.

<< end of quote >>

Academic is a funny word.

Whatever Daoism was, the philosophy
and the religion, so-called, appear
to have been differentiated in ways.

Asking a ChatGPT about the Dao Zhang,
the Canon, what was and is contained
within its many texts can be a trip.

- down memory lane ... Cheers!
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From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye posted:

Aye asked a form of ChatGPT about:

Daojia.

Continuing the chat:

<< begin extension of conversation >>

Is the Yijing in the Daozhang?

ChatGPT said:
The Daozang (oUo*uA)
does not include the Yijing itself as part of the canon.
The classic text belongs to the Confucian Five Classics,
so it sits outside the formal Daoist corpus.

What is in the Daozang:
Numerous Daoist commentaries on the Yijing
Thunder-ritual, alchemical, and cosmological texts
that draw heavily on Yijing numerology
Hexagram-based divination manuals adapted for Daoist ritual use

So the core Yijing is not part of the Daozang,
but Daoist traditions absorbed and reinterpreted it,
leaving a large body of related material inside the canon.

<< end of quote of part of a conversation >>

Formalities vary.

- thanks! Cheers!
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From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye posted:

Academic is a funny word.

Whatever Daoism was, the philosophy
and the religion, so-called, appear
to have been differentiated in ways.

Lieh Tzu is found in the Chuang Tzu.
Whether he actually existed, akin to Lao Tzu,
or was a legendary fictional character is
perhaps unknown.

He could fly, given a tale,
and yet he couldn't stay high
for more than a couple weeks.

He was able to shoot arrows
and never miss a bull's eye,
until a playing field shifted.

What is a, if not the, Dao of Daojia
could be a rhetorical question asked.

Are there dao of Dao Jiao which differ
from what was being spoken of, early on,
prior to creating distinctions.

Lieh Tzu practiced techniques.
He reached perfection in ways.

Speaking of dao and writing of dao
could be viewed as different forms.

If, when wandering teachers taught,
using various sayings known that are
now found in the TTC, they may have
been spoken to potential young rulers.

To begin a teaching, a study, saying,
hey kids, listen up, the dao that are
spoken aren't the Dao, might be odd.

Young rulers could have been puzzled.
Wtf is this guy talking about.

- hmmm ... .. .
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From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


eye posted:

To begin a teaching, a study, saying,
hey kids, listen up, the dao that are
spoken aren't the Dao, might be odd.

Young rulers could have been puzzled.
Wtf is this guy talking about.

When speaking with students, perhaps
questions could be asked. Yet when writing,
as Lao Tzu was said to have been requested
to put his wisdom in that form, differences
might emerge as tales grew branching.

A dao of unity and duality
might not be as Great, as
some other dao unspoken.

The dao that are effortless,
perfectly natural may be best.

Without a thought, spontaneous,
dao might be an ideal of a sort.

Yet Butcher Ting knew emptiness
and fully intended to carve oxen.

Thousands of them over nineteen years
found their body parts on the floor.

A saying can be how uncarved,
or uncarving, is simple.

Gnarly trees go without saying.

Yet there is a woodsman in a text
who carved bell-stands magnificent.

He spoke of his dao.

Whether the texts contradict
their selves or compliment
could be a question.

- rhetorically speaking ... Cheers!
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From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

Aye asked a form of ChatGPT about:

Daojia.
When first categorized among the Jia,
did historians include or exclude texts
that might be viewed as folk religions,
shamanism or Jiao?

ChatGPT said:
Early imperial scholars used Daojia (oUoo<|)
mainly as a literati category, not a label for popular religion.

How it started
In the Han dynasty, historians like Sima Tan and Sima Qian
grouped certain thinkers into rCLDaojia.rCY
The category focused on philosophical textsrCo
Laozi, Zhuangzi, and works with similar themes.
The aim was to map out intellectual lineages, not religious practice.

What they included
Writings on cosmology, governance through non-action,
naturalness, and metaphysics.
Elite philosophical works circulating among scholars.

What they excluded
Folk religion, shamanism, spirit-medium practices,
local cults, and Jiao (oa<) ritual traditions were not treated as Daojia.
Those belonged to other spheres:
local cult activity, rCLfangshirCY technical arts, or ritual specialists.

Why the separation
Philosophers were seen as offering doctrines for rulers and thinkers. Popular religious practice was viewed as something differentrCo
sometimes tolerated, sometimes dismissed, but not part of
the intellectual rCLschools.rCY
Later, the religious dimensions of Daoism grew,
but the original Daojia label was philosophical,
not religious, and it did not fold in folk or
shamanic traditions when first created.

<< end of quote >>

This question is actually quite simple for us. For the sake of convenience,
I request Deepseek to explain this issue in the simplest language possible



Daojia (The Philosophical School)

What it is: A school of philosophical thought.

When: Originated in the late Spring and Autumn Period (around the 6th century BCE, the era of Laozi) and flourished during the Warring States Period (the era of Zhuangzi).

Core: Represented by Laozi and Zhuangzi, it advocates for "the Dao follows nature" and "non-action" (wuwei), pursuing spiritual transcendence and understanding the laws of the universe.

Daojiao (The Religion)

What it is: A system of religious beliefs.

When: Formed during the Eastern Han Dynasty (with a key milestone around 142 CE, marked by Zhang Ling founding the Way of the Celestial Masters).

Core: Using Daoist philosophy as its theoretical foundation, it incorporated deity worship, alchemy, rituals, and other religious practices, aiming for immortality and attaining the Dao to become a transcendent being.

One-sentence summary: Daojia is a philosophy originating from the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods, while Daojiao is a faith established during the Eastern Han Dynasty.



ChatGLM answer
In the simplest terms:
Daoist philosophy is a school of thought, while Taoist religion is a religion.

Daoist Philosophy (oUoo<|): It is a school of thought. Its key figures are Laozi and Zhuangzi, centered on the *Tao Te Ching*. It teaches a life philosophy of rCLfollowing the way of NaturerCY (oUou|o*c-ta|)
and rCLgoverning through non-actionrCY (uuaE+|*Ciu#+).
Taoist Religion (oUouoO): It is an organized religion. It takes the ideas of Daoist philosophy and deifies them, seeking longevity and immortality.
It has a pantheon of deities, temples, rituals, and Taoist priests.
An analogy:
If the rCLDaorCY were a teacher, Daoist philosophy consists of the students who study the teacherrCOs ideas, while Taoist religion consists of the believers who worship the teacher.
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From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye posted:

Dao is said to be a noun and
can be a verb as well as it
wells and dwells without doing.

Not to mention, wu-ming
nor Wu as a formless form.

How to dao, as a verb.

Don't be a doer?
Or, more simpler than, pu, u?+, is wu.
Don't be. Period. End of story.
A dao of not being.
Not having.

Negation, subtraction,
less and less could be wu-wei.

Zuowang and xinzhai, o+auui.

As a ritual, without doing either.

- thanks! Cheers!
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