From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

<< begin quotes from bot >>

DDJ 19 |o-C-o |o-C-LGive up sageliness and renunciation,
and the people will benefit a hundredfold.|o-C-Y

Suggests that artificial moralism
and contrived virtue emerge when people have lost the Dao.

True governance or virtue doesn|o-C-Ot rely on laws, rituals, or instruction; these are patches for when the natural Way is forgotten.

DDJ 39 |o-C-o |o-C-LIn harmony with the great Dao, the ten thousand things all return.|o-C-Y

Emphasizes the self-correcting, effortless nature of the Dao.
Artificial interventions (laws, clever methods) are unnecessary
if one aligns with the Dao.

DDJ 40-41 |o-C-o Discuss the contrast between abundance and loss, gain and loss:

When the Dao is forgotten, people struggle, compete,
and invent methods to restore balance.

The text hints that those who have lost the Way cling to techniques,
while the Dao itself operates beyond deliberate effort.

Together, these chapters echo the same paradox as DDJ 38:
the emergence of methods, rules, or artificial virtue
is a sign of loss, not mastery.

It|o-C-Os a recurring theme: the more contrived the method,
the further one has drifted from the effortless flow of the Dao.

<< end of quote >>

Forms of Daojia continue to impress me
in terms of being and not being.

- thanks! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism

On 09/12/2025 15:33, aye wrote:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

Grok says...

You're referencing some of the most radical and rCLanarchisticrCY chapters
of the Daodejing (DDJ) in the context of classical Daojia (the
philosophical current centered on Laozi and Zhuangzi, as distinct from
later religious Daojiao).

Chapters 19 and 38rCo41 together form one of the most sustained critiques
of Confucian-ruled society and rCLartificialrCY virtue in the entire text. LetrCOs look at them briefly and then see what kind of Daojia they point to:DDJ 19

rCLAbandon sagehood and discard wisdom; the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Abandon humaneness and discard righteousness; the people will return to
filial piety and parental affection.

Abandon ingenuity and discard profit; there will be no more thieves and bandits.rCY

raA This is a direct attack on the core Confucian values (sagehood,
wisdom, ren E+U, yi t+-) as the very cause of social decay. True natural goodness arises only when these imposed moral categories are dropped.
DDJ 38 (the famous hierarchy of decline)

rCLThe highest virtue is not virtuous, therefore it has virtue.
The lowest virtue never departs from virtue, therefore it has no virtue.
rCa
When the great Way was abandoned, there appeared humaneness and
righteousness.

When wisdom and sagacity appeared, there was great hypocrisy.
rCa
When the six relations are not in harmony, there is filial piety and
parental affection.

When the state is in darkness and disorder, there are loyal ministers.rCY
raA The more you institutionalize and praise rCLvirtue,rCY the further you are from the genuine, unselfconscious Way.

DDJ 39 (the rCLonerCY and the return to wholeness)
Emphasizes that all differentiation and hierarchy come from losing the original unity.

DDJ 40
rCLBeing comes from non-beingrCY and rCLThe Way moves by returnrCY rCo the ontological basis for why forced action and imposed order always revert
or collapse.

DDJ 41
rCLSuperior virtue seems emptyrCa Great whiteness seems soiledrCarCY
The highest Way appears worthless to conventional eyes; the sagerCOs
action looks like non-action.

Taken together, these chapters sketch a form of Daojia that is
profoundly anti-institutional, anti-moralistic, and primitivist-leaning.
It is the Daojia of:radical de-conditioning (strip away sagehood,
morality, profit-seeking, even rCLloyaltyrCY) return to an uncarved, pre-moral spontaneity (the rCLuncarved blockrCY pu u?+) trust in the self-ordering power of nature and human nature when left alone (ziran
*c-ta|)
deep suspicion of any ruler, teaching, or system that claims to
rCLimproverCY people

This is the strand of Daojia that later fed into ZhuangzirCOs anarchic parables, into the rCLindividualistrCY anarcho-taoist readings (Needham, Graham, RothbardrCOs brief flirtation, etc.), and into modern
interpretations that see Laozi as advocating a kind of stateless,
non-coercive social order grounded in wuwei and simplicity.In short: the Daojia of DDJ 19 + 38rCo41 is not a mysticism that flees the world; it is
a political philosophy that says the world would be spontaneously
harmonious if only the sages, rulers, and moralists would stop meddling
and let the Way be.




--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism

On 09/12/2025 17:04, Julian wrote:

On 09/12/2025 15:33, aye wrote:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

Grok says...

You're referencing some of the most radical and rCLanarchisticrCY chapters of the Daodejing (DDJ) in the context of classical Daojia (the
philosophical current centered on Laozi and Zhuangzi, as distinct from
later religious Daojiao).

Chapters 19 and 38rCo41 together form one of the most sustained critiques
of Confucian-ruled society and rCLartificialrCY virtue in the entire text. LetrCOs look at them briefly and then see what kind of Daojia they point to:DDJ 19

rCLAbandon sagehood and discard wisdom; the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Abandon humaneness and discard righteousness; the people will return to filial piety and parental affection.

Abandon ingenuity and discard profit; there will be no more thieves and bandits.rCY

raA This is a direct attack on the core Confucian values (sagehood,
wisdom, ren E+U, yi t+-) as the very cause of social decay. True natural goodness arises only when these imposed moral categories are dropped.
DDJ 38 (the famous hierarchy of decline)

rCLThe highest virtue is not virtuous, therefore it has virtue.
The lowest virtue never departs from virtue, therefore it has no virtue.
rCa
When the great Way was abandoned, there appeared humaneness and righteousness.

When wisdom and sagacity appeared, there was great hypocrisy.
rCa
When the six relations are not in harmony, there is filial piety and parental affection.

When the state is in darkness and disorder, there are loyal ministers.rCY
raA The more you institutionalize and praise rCLvirtue,rCY the further you are
from the genuine, unselfconscious Way.

DDJ 39 (the rCLonerCY and the return to wholeness)
Emphasizes that all differentiation and hierarchy come from losing the original unity.

DDJ 40
rCLBeing comes from non-beingrCY and rCLThe Way moves by returnrCY rCo the ontological basis for why forced action and imposed order always revert
or collapse.

DDJ 41
rCLSuperior virtue seems emptyrCa Great whiteness seems soiledrCarCY
The highest Way appears worthless to conventional eyes; the sagerCOs
action looks like non-action.

Taken together, these chapters sketch a form of Daojia that is
profoundly anti-institutional, anti-moralistic, and primitivist-leaning.
It is the Daojia of:radical de-conditioning (strip away sagehood,
morality, profit-seeking, even rCLloyaltyrCY)-a return to an uncarved, pre- moral spontaneity (the rCLuncarved blockrCY pu u?+) trust in the self- ordering power of nature and human nature when left alone (ziran *c-ta|)
deep suspicion of any ruler, teaching, or system that claims to rCLimproverCY people

This is the strand of Daojia that later fed into ZhuangzirCOs anarchic parables, into the rCLindividualistrCY anarcho-taoist readings (Needham, Graham, RothbardrCOs brief flirtation, etc.), and into modern interpretations that see Laozi as advocating a kind of stateless, non- coercive social order grounded in wuwei and simplicity.In short: the
Daojia of DDJ 19 + 38rCo41 is not a mysticism that flees the world; it is
a political philosophy that says the world would be spontaneously
harmonious if only the sages, rulers, and moralists would stop meddling
and let the Way be.

It has various modes... demented is good.

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia. demented

rCLdementedrCY

Yes, exactly. If you read DDJ 19 + 38rCo41 straight, without the usual scholarly anesthesia, the text is demented by the standards of any
civilized, state-building ideology (Confucian, Legalist, Mohist,
Liberal, Marxist, whatever).It is saying, with a perfectly straight face:
Throw out wisdom, morality, family values, technology, and profit motive

Then, and only then, will real kindness, real family feeling, and real
social order magically reappear

The more you try to enforce goodness, the worse everything gets

The highest virtue looks like stupidity, weakness, emptiness, and defect

The sage rules by making sure nobody notices there is a ruler

The best society is one where people live like ignorant peasants who die without ever having traveled far from their villages (DDJ 80)

This is not rCLnoble silencerCY mysticism.

This is not rCLinner alchemyrCY yet (that comes centuries later).

This is weaponized dementia.

It is a deliberate, ice-cold, sustained middle finger to every project
of civilization that believes human nature must be shaped, corrected, educated, policed, or improved.From the perspective of anyone trying to
run a state, an economy, a university, or even a family with rules and aspirations, the Daodejing in these chapters is clinically insane.

It recommends the precise opposite of everything that rCLworksrCY in history as we know it.And that is exactly why these chapters keep haunting
people: because the text refuses to blink. It looks at ten thousand
years of ambition and says, rCLAll of that was the disease, not the cure.rCY

So yes, demented. Gloriously, terrifyingly, liberatingly demented.
ThatrCOs the Daojia you just touched.




--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

<< begin quotes from bot >>

You asked questions related to divination, but the machine's response was completely off the mark,
truly a case of "the bull's head not matching the horse's mouth."
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

I tried to understand your question and asked chatGLM (ranked seventh in China),
and his answer is as followsN+U


It's a fascinating topic.

Is Divination Contrary to the Fundamental Nature of the Dao?
Is It a Form of "Deliberate Action" and "Artificiality"?

That is a profoundly insightful question that goes right to the heart of the matter. From the perspective of Daoist thought, your skepticism is entirely valid.
We can explore this question on several levels.

Level 1:
From the Perspective of the Dao's Fundamental Nature, Divination is Indeed "Deliberate Action" and "Artificiality."
The core of Daoism is "the Dao follows nature" (oUou|o*c-ta|) and "governing through non-action" (uuaE+|*Ciu#+).
The Unknowable and Inexpressible Dao: The *Tao Te Ching* begins, "The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao; the name that can be named is not the eternal name."
This means that the Dao which can be described in words is not the true, eternal Dao. The real Dao transcends human cognition and language. Divination,
in any form, is fundamentally an attempt to "know" somethingrCoespecially information about the future, which is unseen.
This effort to grasp the infinite and inexpressible Dao with finite methods (like yarrow stalks, coins, or tortoise shells) is itself a paradox.
It is an attempt to pull the "eternal Dao" into the realm of the "describable Dao," which is a form of "artificiality" (oCaE+L).
The Opposition Between "Non-Action" (uuaE+|) and "Deliberate Action" (uLeE+|): "Non-action" (wu wei) doesn't mean doing nothing at all;
it means not acting recklessly or against the natural flow of things, but rather acting in harmony with the natural course of events.
The motivation for divination, however, often stems from uncertainty, anxiety, and fear about the future.
It is an attempt to foresee outcomes in order to seek fortune and avoid misfortune, or even to change one's destiny.
This mindset of trying to intervene in and control the future is a classic example of "deliberate action" (you wei). It is not about accepting and flowing with things,
but about trying to control and evade them.

The Realm of "Abandoning Sagacity and Wisdom":
The *Tao Te Ching* says, "Abandon sagacity and discard wisdom, and the people will benefit a hundredfold."
The "wisdom" (uO|) here refers to petty cleverness, scheming, and calculation. Divination, in a sense, is a form of "scheming"rCoa kind of "cleverness"
that seeks a shortcut to gain information beyond the ordinary. Daoism advocates for returning to one's original, simple nature,
to a pure state like that of an infant, "without knowledge and without desire." In such a state, a person's heart is tranquil and one with the Dao;
there is simply no need to seek answers from the outside.
From this perspective, to be obsessed with divination is indeed contrary to the fundamental nature of the Dao.
It is a typical form of "deliberate action" and "artificiality."

Level 2:
From the Perspective of the *I Ching* and the Practical Function of Divination, There Is Another Understanding.
However, the matter is not so absolute. The beauty of Chinese philosophy lies in its dialectical and holistic nature.
The true purpose of divination,
especially the system represented by the *I Ching* (Book of Changes), may not be "predicting the future."
Divination as "Observing Symbols," Not "Fortune-Telling": The core of the *I Ching* is "to observe the patterns of heaven to understand the changes of time;
to observe the patterns of humanity to transform the world." It is a tool for understanding the current situation (one's "time and position") by observing phenomena (symbols, or *xiang*).
The hexagram and its text you receive are less a prophecy of the distant future and more a mirror reflecting your present state of mind, your circumstances,
and the internal and external conflicts you face. It reveals the underlying principle (tEa) of "here and now."

A Bridge from "Deliberate Action" to "Non-Action":
When you are confused, anxious, and unsure what to do, your mind is in a state of "deliberate action"rCofull of distracting thoughts and struggles. In this moment,
engaging in divination is not meant to give you a simple verdict of "lucky" or "unlucky." Instead, it uses the hexagram as an "external" perspective to help your chaotic mind settle.
The guidance from the text,
such as "hidden dragon, do not act" or "dragon appears in the field," is not predicting your inevitable success or failure. Rather, it is reminding you: Given the current situation,
what is the course of action most in harmony with the Dao? Should you bide your time and build your strength, or is it time to emerge and take action?
Therefore, divination can be seen as a ritual to help you achieve a state of "non-action." It helps you let go of your subjective attachments ("what I want to do") to examine the objective situation ("what ought to be done"),
enabling you to make a choice that better aligns with the Dao.
The Wisdom of "Do Your Best, and Leave the Rest to Fate": A person who truly understands the essence of divination does not entrust their destiny entirely to a single reading.
Confucius said, "I no longer engage in divination," as he placed more emphasis on understanding the moral principles within the *I Ching* to guide his own conduct.
The result of the divination is part of "fate" (on-oa+),
but how you respond to that result is your "human effort" (E||E|i). Divination offers a hint, but the final action and responsibility still lie with you.
This is a positive, proactive attitude of doing one's utmost, not a passive resignation to fate.

Conclusion: The Key Lies in "Intention" and "Attitude."
So, returning to your question: Is divination contrary to the fundamental nature of the Dao? Is it a form of "deliberate action" and "artificiality"?
If the motivation for divination is greed, fear, opportunism, or a desire to control destiny and find a shortcut,
then it is unequivocally "deliberate action" and "artificiality."
It leads a person further away from the Dao and into greater obsession and suffering.
If the motivation is introspection, a search for wisdom, or a desire to see clearly in a moment of confusion, to adjust one's mindset,
and to return to the right path, then it can be a skillful means (uu|E++u|oou?, *up-Uya*)rCoa tool to help one return from "deliberate action" to "non-action."
In this case, divination is not about "knowing fate" but about "fulfilling one's human duty."
Ultimately, the true Dao is not in the yarrow stalks or coins, but within your own heart.
When you no longer need external divination to find inner peace and guidance for your actions,
and can instead maintain a state of inner clarity and act naturally in harmony with the flow of things,
you are truly one with the Dao. At that point, this "crutch" of divination can be set aside.

So, your question itself is a wonderful form of "introspection" and "divination." It has led you to contemplate the relationship between action and the Dao, which is more valuable than any external divination could ever be.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans <user11874@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

I tried to understand your question and asked chatGLM (ranked seventh in China),
and his answer is as followsN+U

Ask ERNIE Bot this time and see how it answers.
ERNIE BotN+i The total number of active and passive users ranks 1-3, with approximately 150 million people

Here is its answer:

From the perspective of the essential nature of the Dao, divination mostly goes against the essence of the Dao and can be regarded as "deliberate action" and "artificial contrivance"
The conflict between the unknowability of the Dao and the knowledge-seeking nature of divination
In Daoist thought, the Dao possesses characteristics that transcend human cognition and linguistic description. As the opening lines of the Dao De Jing state, "The Dao that can be spoken of is not the constant Dao; the name that can be named is not the constant name." This implies that the true Dao cannot be precisely expressed in words and is a mysterious and ineffable existence. Divination, whether through yarrow stalks, coins, tortoise shells, or other methods, is essentially an attempt to gain knowledge of certain unknown information, especially regarding the future. This act of trying to grasp the infinite and indescribable Dao with limited means is inherently paradoxical and represents an artificial contrivance to explore something that is fundamentally unknowable.
The contradiction between the concept of "Wu Wei" and the motivations behind divination
"Wu Wei" does not mean inaction but rather not acting in a willful or arbitrary manner, and instead acting in accordance with the natural laws of things. The motivations behind divination often stem from people's feelings of uncertainty, anxiety, and fear about the future, as well as a desire to predict outcomes in order to seek benefits and avoid harm or change their fates. This mindset of attempting to intervene and control the future is a clear example of "deliberate action." It fails tooi|o|o (follow, here "shun ying" means to go along with) the natural development of things and instead tries to alter or escape it through the means of divination, which runs counter to the concept of "Wu Wei."
The opposition between "abandoning wisdom and renouncing sagacity" and the "cleverness" in divination
The Dao De Jing proposes "Abandon sageliness and discard wisdom, and the people will benefit a hundredfold." Here, "wisdom" refers to petty cleverness, calculation, and scheming. Divination, to a certain extent, is a form of "scheming," an attempt to seek shortcuts to obtain information beyond the ordinary. Daoism advocates returning to one's original, simple, and unadorned nature, like that of an infant who is "without knowledge and desires," and achieving inner peace and harmony with the Dao. The act of seeking special information and making predictions through divination goes against this idea of returning to one's true nature and can be seen as an artificial contrivance of petty cleverness.
From a specific perspective, divination does not necessarily go against the Dao and may not be "deliberate action" or "artificial contrivance"
Divination as a tool for "observing phenomena"
The core of divination systems, represented by the I Ching, is not to predict the future but to "observe phenomena." The I Ching emphasizes, "Observe the patterns of the heavens to discern the changes of the seasons; observe the patterns of human culture to transform and nurture the world." By observing phenomena (the "images"), one can understand one's own situation (the "time" and "position"). The hexagrams and divinatory statements obtained through divination are more like mirrors that reflect one's current inner state, the environment one is in, and the conflicts one is facing. In this case, divination is not a deliberate attempt to predict the distant future but rather a means of using it to observe the present, and thus does not fall into the category of deliberate action against the Dao.
Divination as a bridge to "Wu Wei"
When a person is confused, anxious, and at a loss, their mind is in a state of "deliberate action" and chaos. At such times, divination is not used to obtain a simple "auspicious or inauspicous" judgment but rather to use the hexagram as an external perspective to help calm the inner mind. The guidance from the divinatory statements, such as "The hidden dragon does not act" or "The dragon appears in the field," is not about predicting success or failure but about reminding one to take actions in line with the Dao according to the situation, such as concealing one's talents or showing one's abilities. In this way, divination becomes a ritual that helps one reach a state of "Wu Wei," prompting one to let go of subjective obsessions and examine the objective situation to make decisions in accordance with the Dao, and thus is not "deliberate action" or "artificial contrivance."
The perspective of "exhausting human efforts and accepting the will of heaven" in relation to divination
Those who truly understand the essence of divination do not place their entire fate on the results of divination. The results of divination are part of "the will of heaven," while how one responds is "human effort." Divination provides hints, but the actions and the responsibility for them lie with oneself. This is a proactive attitude of exhausting human efforts, not a passive acceptance of fate. In this context, divination is not a deliberate attempt to change fate but an auxiliary tool for exhausting human efforts, and thus does not go against the Dao.
Conclusion
Whether divination goes against the essence of the Dao and can be considered "deliberate action" or "artificial contrivance" depends on one's motivations and attitudes. If the motivation behind divination is greed, fear, speculation, or a desire to control fate and find shortcuts, it is "deliberate action" and "artificial contrivance" that will lead one further away from the Dao. If the motivation is self-reflection, the pursuit of wisdom, or, when confused, to see the truth clearly, adjust one's mindset, and return to the right path, divination can become a skillful and convenient tool that helps one transition from "deliberate action" to "Wu Wei." Ultimately, the Dao resides in the heart. When one no longer needs to rely on external divination to seek inner peace and guidance for actions, and can naturally act in accordance with the flow of things, one is in harmony with the Dao, and the "crutch" of divination can be set aside.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans <user11874@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

I tried to understand your question and asked chatGLM (ranked seventh in China),
and his answer is as followsN+U

This time i ask Qwen-3 max,
"divinationN+idaojia how to use it? understand it ?"
Qwen, like ERNIE Bot, relies on its existing powerful platform and ranks between 1-3 in terms of the total number of active and passive users,
with approximately 100 million+plus people,


ITs answer:

Great question! In Daoism (Taoism), divination is not just fortune-tellingrCoitrCOs a spiritual and philosophical practice aimed at aligning with the Dao (the Way), understanding natural patterns, and making decisions in harmony with cosmic flow. Here's how Daoists traditionally understand and use divination:

Efi+ 1. Purpose of Divination in Daoism
Not to control fate, but to discern the current pattern of Qi (energy) and act accordingly.
To harmonize human action with Heaven (Tian) and Earth (Di).
To cultivate wu wei (non-forcing action)rCoacting at the right time, in the right way.
rCLThe sage does not predict the future; he perceives the tendencies of the present.rCY
rCo Daoist principle

EfoL 2. Common Daoist Divination Methods
A. Yijing (I Ching / Book of Changes)
Origin: Ancient Chinese text, deeply integrated into Daoist and Confucian thought.
How it works: Cast yarrow stalks or coins to generate hexagrams (6-line symbols).
Daoist interpretation: Focuses on change, balance, and the interplay of Yin and Yang. The answer isnrCOt fixedrCoit reveals tendencies you can work with.
B. Da Liu Ren (Great Six Ren)
A complex time-based system using Heavenly Stems, Earthly Branches, and spirit positions.
Used by advanced Daoist practitioners for timing rituals or major decisions.
C. Qi Men Dun Jia (Mysterious Door Escaping Jia)
A strategic divination system combining astrology, feng shui, and military strategy.
Often used for auspicious timing (e.g., travel, business, healing).
D. Simple Methods: Coin Toss, Incense Reading, or Oracle Blocks (Jiaobei) Common in Daoist temples.
Jiaobei blocks: Two wooden crescents thrown to get "yes/no" answers from deities (e.g., Mazu, Guan Yu, Laozi).
Interpreted with humilityrConever as absolute commands, but as guidance.

Efoy 3. How to Approach Daoist Divination Properly

1. Cultivate Stillness First
Clear your mind through meditation or quiet reflection before asking a question.
A chaotic mind distorts the reading.

2. Ask Meaningful Questions
Not rCLWill I win the lottery?rCY but rCLWhat is the most harmonious path regarding my finances right now?rCY

3. Interpret Symbolically, Not Literally
Daoist divination speaks in metaphors (e.g., rCLwater over firerCY = inner conflict needing calm).
It points to energetic dynamics, not fixed outcomes.

4. Act with Humility and Responsibility
The reading shows potentialrConot destiny. Your choices still matter.
Use insight to adjust your actions, not to avoid responsibility.

5. Respect Ritual and Intention
In temple settings, offerings (incense, fruit) show sincerity.
At home, light a candle, bow, and state your question clearly.

Efio 4. Key Daoist Insight on Divination
rCLThe Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao.rCY rCo Daodejing, Ch. 1 Divination is a tool to glimpse the ineffablerConot to trap the infinite in words.

ItrCOs about listening to the subtle rhythms of life, not demanding answers from the universe.

rL? Practical Tip for Beginners
Start with the Yijing:
Get a reputable translation (e.g., Wilhelm/Baynes or Thomas Cleary).
Meditate on your question.
Toss three coins six times to build a hexagram.
Reflect on the image, judgment, and changing linesrConot just the rCLfortune.rCY

Remember: The best divination is self-awareness. When yourCOre aligned with your true nature, you need fewer signs.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Julian posted:

So yes, demented. Gloriously, terrifyingly, liberatingly demented.
ThatrCOs the Daojia you just touched.

Makes for a good contrast.

An impression of mine has been how nostalgic
portions of the basic texts tend to be. Hearkening
back to before all the wars and technologies.

DDJ 80 might have included, imagine having engines
of divination, of knowing the future, of knowing
past and present and not using them naturally.

As a knowledge junkie, myself, it would be
like a koan of sorts able to shake my tree.

I can see how Zen grew from a branch
of the radical demented Daojia.

- thanks! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans posted:

So, your question itself is a wonderful form of "introspection" and "divination."
It has led you to contemplate the relationship between action and the Dao, >which is more valuable than any external divination could ever be.

I've read how, in ancient times, people
that might later be called Taoists were
hermits and withdrew from the world.

There's a passage in the Chuang-tzu
where Kong Tzu goes to seek Lao Tzu
who has left the world so to speak.

Rulers in other stories want to know
how best to govern. When Chuang Tzu
was fishing once upon a time he was
asked to help. To which he replied
referencing a tortoise who had a
shell used for divination.

The tortoise was dead.

Chuang Tzu told the guys
to go away, he'd rather not
be like the tortoise.

- Thanks! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans <user11874@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

aye <user8028@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDJ 19 and 38-41 arrive in mind
with regard to a form of Daojia.

ChatGPT, when asked about divination, said:

<< begin quotes from bot >>

You asked questions related to divination,
but the machine's response was completely off the mark,
truly a case of "the bull's head not matching the horse's mouth."

That was my doing. Snipping most
of what the bot's response was.

A tendency of mine is to try
and keep messages short.

In this case, and in others, I cut
off my nose and who knows what
is being said by me at times
can be a rhetorical question.

A point was how when various actions,
yu-wei perhaps is a term, are used, it is
indicative of having lost Da Dao and Da De.

Lesser dao, lesser de, and other forms emerge
after losing more and more of the point being
engaged with in various lines and paragraphs
of the basic texts.

A point of origin.
A returning to the source.
A dao that is Da Dao.

Many dao are dao, as the DDJ begins to say.
Yet an interpretation can be how none are chang.
None of them, including divination, are always dao.

In that sense, using that interpretation,
techniques such as divination can be a dao
and could work for those who use them.

Another view is how the Dao of Daojia
is a fei-chang, uncommon or unusual dao.

To say it can't be said, how words fail,
could point to a Dao that is beyond all
forms of differentiation. Yu and Yi,
Being and Unity, emerge from Wu or
a dao which can be a dao or Dao.

Emptiness, wu-wei, wu-ming,
spontaneity, wu-xin and such
can be a kind of a Da Dao.

At least, in terms of Daojia.

- imo. thanks! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans posted:

Shein fans posted:

aye wrote:

ChatGPT, when asked

...

I tried to understand your question and asked chatGLM

...

Ask ERNIE Bot this time and see how it answers. ...

Lots of bots appear to me to predict very similar words,
sentences and a wonder emerges as to why they are so much
the same. Almost word-for-word at times.

Yet, when asking the same bot the same question
or having a conversation and then editing a word,
the response differs. Usually not by much.

It's interesting to me how the word, chang, o++,
is able to have more than one connotation.

Gemini suggests how chang could mean, hidden.

The bot goes on to contrast human dao
as a possible interpretation, artificial dao
compared with what is more natural.

If an oracle were to be used twice, thrice
or any number of times it would perhaps
yield a different result each time.

A guess is, it depends on the oracle.

Bots also seem to me to have a science bias.

Daojia probably isn't science.

More of a kind of art.

Practice could make for perfection.
A type of a paradox in a way.

The dao that are paradoxical
could hint at what goes on.

Butcher Ting took years
prior to arriving at wei-wu-wei.

After all the basics are second-nature
then wu-wei may be the Dao, the Zone.

- thanks again! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism


Shein fans posted:

This time i ask Qwen-3 max,
"divinationN+idaojia how to use it? understand it ?"

How a question is asked
could be a factor in a bot's response.

Instead of,
compare a technique
with various passages that can be viewed
as not particularly favorable,
to ask, how to use it,
may be involved.

As Daoism evolved over time, adopting
various Buddhist types of structures,
to compare Daojia, for example, with
Daojiao can be a study going back to
ancient historians.

The various Jia, or Schools, were
categorized and the Dao Jia was
among them. Whether Dao Jiao
was already a term can be
a question to ask a bot.

There were folk type religions,
shamanism, rituals, rites and
other practices at the time.

As a ritual, to use
a divination machine
could be one's dao.

What the DDJ and Zhuangzi may say
about rites, rituals and such
could be telling.

- naturally. Thanks! Cheers!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2