From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

Not hard, is it? Easier than rCyHenry VIrCOs thronerCO, anyway.

Source: https://rudhar.com/fonetics/build.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite >songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

Me2.
--
Pancho
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Ruud Harmsen (uniqude punctuation amended):

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the
difference between `We built this city on rock and roll' (not
one of my favourite songs by the way; donrt know why) and the
present tense variant `We build this city...'?

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.
"There's a leak in this old building" irrelevantly comes to mind
by way of tangential association...

My general impression of modern English pronunciation is that is
lazy -- dirty and slurry, not sharp and well-articulated, as one
hears movies from the thirties. "movies from the thirties" will
soon be ambiguous, by the way...
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Anton Shepelev wrote:

Ruud Harmsen (uniqude punctuation amended):

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the
difference between `We built this city on rock and roll' (not
one of my favourite songs by the way; donrt know why) and the
present tense variant `We build this city...'?

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.
"There's a leak in this old building" irrelevantly comes to mind
by way of tangential association...

My general impression of modern English pronunciation is that is
lazy -- dirty and slurry, not sharp and well-articulated, as one
hears movies from the thirties. "movies from the thirties" will
soon be ambiguous, by the way...

Hmm, if you're going by how English (UK or American?) is
spoken in songs, that may not be the best source. Lots of
tv and movies, but that may not be the best either. How
about news broadcasts?


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On 17/12/25 04:55, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

I can't answer for non-native speakers, but as a native speaker of
English I find the difference obvious.

The matter is, however, more complicated than it sounds. 'd' and 't'
differ in both voicing and aspiration; but they are formed with tap-and-release, and the voicing and/or aspration happen only on the
release. In the case of "We built this city on rock and coal", the
release doesn't happen until the 'th' of "this".

In that case, you have to listen to vowel length. The vowel in "built"
is short and sharp. The vowel in "build" lasts just a bit longer.
--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Peter Moylan to Ruud Harmsen:

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the
difference between `We built this city on rock and roll'
(not one of my favourite songs by the way; don't know why)
and the present tense variant `We build this city ...'?

I can't answer for non-native speakers, but as a native
speaker of English I find the difference obvious.

The matter is, however, more complicated than it sounds.

Pun detected.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On 2025-12-17 01:07, Tilde wrote:

Anton Shepelev wrote:

Ruud Harmsen (uniqude punctuation amended):

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the
difference between `We built this city on rock and roll' (not
one of my favourite songs by the way; don-ot know why) and the
present tense variant `We build this city...'?

No idea.-a 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.
"There's a leak in this old building" irrelevantly comes to mind
by way of tangential association...

My general impression of modern English pronunciation is that is
lazy -- dirty and slurry, not sharp and well-articulated, as one
hears movies from the thirties.-a "movies from the thirties" will
soon be ambiguous, by the way...

Hmm, if you're going by how English (UK or American?) is
spoken in songs, that may not be the best source. Lots of
tv and movies, but that may not be the best either. How
about news broadcasts?

Around here, that's just as bad as anything else.
Our local newsies constantly mangle the language with mispronunciations,
wrong words, and bad grammar.

said meant
---- -----
surcumbed succumbed
interm interim
cloddy cloudy
restless relentless
multipeople multiple people
ordinance ordnance
Rocklin Rock Glen (a town)
sign Seine (the river)
temcher temperature
accredidation accreditation
hang ger hanger

temperature will be more lower tomorrow
more breezier conditions
a sporadic chance of thunderstorms
there were two fires. the second cause of the fire was...
when they evoked the emergency act
very impossible
very fall temperatures
there are a risk of showers
testifying in an alleged case
a man had saw a funnel cloud
--
My paper airplane doesn't fly.
It's stationery.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

In article <10htmc6$3arla$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org says...

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between ?We built this city on rock and roll? (not one of my favourite songs by the way; don?t know why) and the present tense variant ?We
build this city ???

In that case, you have to listen to vowel length. The vowel in "built"
is short and sharp. The vowel in "build" lasts just a bit longer.

Right on!

It's like in Italian, where doubled consonants just shorten preceding vowels. "I build this wormhole using 24 magnets and it will work" has a liaison between d and t but "I built this wormhole using 23 magnets and
it didn't work" differs in the stop on t.

Of course 'd' is voiced and 't' not, which is another difference, but
the English 't' is more aspirated than in most civilized languages and
the 'd' I'm not sure about, as most English speakers are drunk most of
the time in my experience.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Le 16/12/2025 |a 17:55, Ruud Harmsen a |-crit :

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

Not hard, is it? Easier than rCyHenry VIrCOs thronerCO, anyway.

Source: https://rudhar.com/fonetics/build.htm

I think pronunciation is often hit and miss in songs, and it's easy to
mishear the words either accidentally or deliberately. Here's an example appropriate to the season:

While shepherds washed their socks by night,
All seated round the tub,
The Angel of the Lord came down
And helped them all to scrub....

These are majestic sentiments when backed by a church organ, and there
are many variants of them:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/While_shepherds_watched_their_flocks>

<https://www.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/comments/a7bqm7/while_shepherds_wash_their_socks_by_night/>

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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Kees van den Doel hat am 18.12.2025 um 07:25 geschrieben:

In article <10htmc6$3arla$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org says...

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between ?We built this city on rock and roll? (not one of my favourite
songs by the way; don?t know why) and the present tense variant ?We
build this city ???

In that case, you have to listen to vowel length. The vowel in "built"
is short and sharp. The vowel in "build" lasts just a bit longer.

Right on!

It's like in Italian, where doubled consonants just shorten preceding vowels.

May I question your knowledge of my mother tongue? The pronunciation of
double consonants in Italian is definitely longer than that of single consonants, unlike e.g. in English, French and German. About long vowels
in Italian: they should be there, if double consonants could shorten
them, but a monolingual Italian dictionary explains long vowels to
Italians using the "native" Italian words meeting and csbrdbs.

"I build this wormhole using 24 magnets and it will work" has a
liaison between d and t but "I built this wormhole using 23 magnets and
it didn't work" differs in the stop on t.

Of course 'd' is voiced and 't' not, which is another difference, but
the English 't' is more aspirated than in most civilized languages and
the 'd' I'm not sure about, as most English speakers are drunk most of
the time in my experience.

Now I see. You're trolling.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On 18/12/25 17:59, Hibou wrote:

While shepherds washed their socks by night,
All seated round the tub,
The Angel of the Lord came down
And helped them all to scrub....

Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall
And Humpty Dumpty had a great
Fall
On his head
That really left him dead, Fred.
Oh night divine ...
--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

Kees van den Doel hat am 18.12.2025 um 07:25 geschrieben:

In article <10htmc6$3arla$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org says...

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between ?We built this city on rock and roll? (not one of my favourite >>> songs by the way; don?t know why) and the present tense variant ?We
build this city ???

In that case, you have to listen to vowel length. The vowel in "built"
is short and sharp. The vowel in "build" lasts just a bit longer.

Right on!

It's like in Italian, where doubled consonants just shorten preceding vowels.

May I question your knowledge of my mother tongue?

Of course not. He is kvandoel.

The pronunciation of double consonants in Italian is definitely longer
than that of single consonants, unlike e.g. in English, French and German. About long vowels in Italian: they should be there, if double consonants could shorten them, but a monolingual Italian dictionary explains long
vowels to Italians using the "native" Italian words meeting and csbrdbs.

The classic Dutch/Italian case is mafia/maffia.
Italian 'mafia' is deliberately misspelled as 'maffia'
(in Dutch, and also in some other languages)
in order to make the natural Dutch pronunciation
resemble the Italian one.

The same goes for the 'u' from many foreign languages,
which is often misspelled as 'oe' in Dutch.
If you want Dutch language hits only search on 'Oekraine'.

"I build this wormhole using 24 magnets and it will work" has a
liaison between d and t but "I built this wormhole using 23 magnets and
it didn't work" differs in the stop on t.

Of course 'd' is voiced and 't' not, which is another difference, but the English 't' is more aspirated than in most civilized languages and the 'd' I'm not sure about, as most English speakers are drunk most of the time in my experience.

Now I see. You're trolling.

Of course not. He is being kvandoel,
and he has been that for as long as usenet has existed,

Jan



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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage


Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> posted:

Ruud Harmsen (uniqude punctuation amended):

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the
difference between `We built this city on rock and roll' (not
one of my favourite songs by the way; don-ot know why) and the
present tense variant `We build this city...'?

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.
"There's a leak in this old building" irrelevantly comes to mind
by way of tangential association...

My general impression of modern English pronunciation is that is
lazy -- dirty and slurry, not sharp and well-articulated,

It's curious that you say that, because it accurately describes
how Russian sounds to me, not at all like Polish, for example.

as one
hears movies from the thirties. "movies from the thirties" will
soon be ambiguous, by the way...

--
athel

Living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly in England before that
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

In article <10i08r7$47ec$1@dont-email.me>, Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it says...

In that case, you have to listen to vowel length. The vowel in "built"
is short and sharp. The vowel in "build" lasts just a bit longer.

Right on!

It's like in Italian, where doubled consonants just shorten preceding vowels.

May I question your knowledge of my mother tongue? The pronunciation of double consonants in Italian is definitely longer than that of single consonants, unlike e.g. in English, French and German. About long vowels
in Italian: they should be there, if double consonants could shorten
them, but a monolingual Italian dictionary explains long vowels to
Italians using the "native" Italian words meeting and csbrdbs.

You didn't understand me, which is understandable since you're Italian
and not much has come out of that area after the fall of the Roman empire.

Suppose you sing "pala" on 2 quarter notes, say a B and a C, then in the
same tempo sing "palla": you'll see that the 'a' in the second word is shorter and the first 'l' pushes the 'a' out of way so to speak if you
know what I mean which I doubt since you're Italian.

Now I see. You're trolling.

That's better than being Italian, esp. if you don't know how to pronounce your own native language.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 18:55:50 +0100, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between "We built this city on rock and roll" (not one of my favourite songs by the way; don't know why) and the present tense variant 'We
build this city rCa'?

I can.

Not hard, is it? Easier than 'Henry VI's throne', anyway.

Source: https://rudhar.com/fonetics/build.htm

No problem.

(Why did you add alt.english.usage twice in your crosspost?)

You really should look better.
alt.english.usage != alt.usage.english

Jan

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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On Tuesday or thereabouts, Ruud Harmsen declared ...

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

Not hard, is it? Easier than rCyHenry VIrCOs thronerCO, anyway.

Source: https://rudhar.com/fonetics/build.htm

Maybe this will help others:

<URL:https://xkcd.com/2819/>

(I wonder how many of the Committee Randall knows by sight? Is there a
site I could cite?)

/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Anton Shepelev:

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."
--
Mark Brader | "If you need features not found in any language,
Toronto | you can try your hand at creating your own.
msb@vex.net | (Mind you, language design is incredibly difficult.
| It is easy to create an unholy mess.)" -- Chris Torek
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On 20/12/25 10:26, Mark Brader wrote:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

That's the song that started this thread.
--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Fri, 19 Dec 2025 23:26:29 +0000: msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) scribeva:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

Which is the one I mentioned in my original post, and which gave me
the idea for the post, when the announcer on Dutch radio of course
said it as "We builddis city on rock and roll."
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:47:26 +0100, J. J. Lodder wrote:

s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

(Why did you add alt.english.usage twice in your crosspost?)

You really should look better.
alt.english.usage != alt.usage.english

o-:
--
s|b
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Anton Shepelev:

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

Mark Brader:

"We built this city on rock and roll."

Peter Moylan:

That's the song that started this thread.

So, Anton didn't seem to remember the start of the thread.
--
Mark Brader | "I mean, you know, that... that's *possible*,
Toronto | if you want to use *logical thinking*..."
msb@vex.net | --Jesse Travis (Chriss Abbott, "Diagnosis: Murder")
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From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:47:26 +0100, J. J. Lodder wrote:

s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

(Why did you add alt.english.usage twice in your crosspost?)

You really should look better.
alt.english.usage != alt.usage.english

o-:

Try it with two eyes,

Jan
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

In article
<RqidnWRJKNe4Qtj0nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@giganews.com>,
msb@vex.net says...

Anton Shepelev:

No idea. 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

Like Jerusalem

Janet
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Peter Moylan wrote:

On 20/12/25 10:26, Mark Brader wrote:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea.a 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

That's the song that started this thread.

A quick google (the AI summary at the top, probably not
definitive)


Songs with "Build" or "Built" in the Title/Chorus:

"The House That Built Me" - Miranda Lambert: "I was never really here
until I saw this house/And the roof was on fire, and the water was
high/But it was home, and the walls were warm/And I was safe and sound...".

"We Built This City" - Starship: "We built this city on rock and roll".

"Build" - The Housemartins: "It's build a house where we can stay / Add
a new bit every day".

"Proud of the House We Built" - Brooks & Dunn: "I'm proud of the house
we built / It's stronger than sticks, stones, and steel".

"Build My Life" - Pat Barrett: "Build my life upon your word / Build my
life upon your love".

"Build" - Healy: "I'm just tryna build my block up".


Songs with "Built" in the Lyrics:

"Believer" - Imagine Dragons: "You break me down, you build me up,
believer, believer".

"The Hexx" - Pavement: "never build a building till you're 50, what kind
of life is that?".

"Built the Wall" - Luke TheNotable: "built the wall it's so dang tall".
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

On 2025-12-23 23:33, Tilde wrote:

Peter Moylan wrote:

On 20/12/25 10:26, Mark Brader wrote:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea.-a 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

That's the song that started this thread.

A quick google (the AI summary at the top, probably not
definitive)

Just add -udm14 to your Google query and the garbage won't show uo.
--
I went to a restaurant that serves rCLbreakfast at any timerCY.
So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

Tilde used thar keyboard to writen:

Peter Moylan wrote:

On 20/12/25 10:26, Mark Brader wrote:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea.a 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

That's the song that started this thread.

A quick google (the AI summary at the top, probably not
definitive)

Songs with "Build" or "Built" in the Title/Chorus:

"The House That Built Me" - Miranda Lambert: "I was never really here until I
saw this house/And the roof was on fire, and the water was high/But it was home, and the walls were warm/And I was safe and sound...".

"We Built This City" - Starship: "We built this city on rock and roll".

"Build" - The Housemartins: "It's build a house where we can stay / Add a new
bit every day".

"Proud of the House We Built" - Brooks & Dunn: "I'm proud of the house we built / It's stronger than sticks, stones, and steel".

"Build My Life" - Pat Barrett: "Build my life upon your word / Build my life upon your love".

"Build" - Healy: "I'm just tryna build my block up".

Songs with "Built" in the Lyrics:

"Believer" - Imagine Dragons: "You break me down, you build me up, believer, believer".

"The Hexx" - Pavement: "never build a building till you're 50, what kind of life is that?".

"Built the Wall" - Luke TheNotable: "built the wall it's so dang tall".

Um, 2 of the 3 in the "built" section have "build" in the quoted part.


-d
--
[XKCD Phone 6 feature:] Shroud of Turin-style facial transfer unlock
<URL:https://xkcd.com/1889/>
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage

lar3ryca used thar keyboard to writen:

On 2025-12-23 23:33, Tilde wrote:

Peter Moylan wrote:

On 20/12/25 10:26, Mark Brader wrote:

Anton Shepelev:

No idea.a 99% of English speech I hear is in songs, and I can't
seem to remember a song with the words `build' or `built'.

"We built this city on rock and roll."

That's the song that started this thread.

A quick google (the AI summary at the top, probably not
definitive)

Just add -udm14 to your Google query and the garbage won't show uo.

For now.

-d
--
You could try being nicer and politer

instead, and see how that works out.

-- Katy Jennison
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.english.usage


Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> posted:

As a non-native speaker, can you hear, and make, the difference
between rCLWe built this city on rock and rollrCY (not one of my favourite songs by the way; donrCOt know why) and the present tense variant rCyWe
build this city rCarCO?

I can.

Not hard, is it? Easier than rCyHenry VIrCOs thronerCO, anyway.

Source: https://rudhar.com/fonetics/build.htm

By sound, build = billed, but built has no homophone, unless bill't is a word. --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2