I've been on that trail. There are quite a few mines like that that never paid out and were abandoned and Pulaski was lucky to know about that one. Still, it takes a lot of self control to shelter in a mine and hope for
the best, but it's better than climbing into a Shaken'Bake I guess.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 18:24:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2025 04:09, Paul wrote:
"As of March 2024, the total area of UK woodland certified as
Silviculture at the million acre level is just silly and is never going
to happen.
sustainably managed is approximately 1.44 million hectares (44% of the
total UK woodland area). The total woodland area across the UK is
approximately 3.28 million hectares"
America is so *backward*
The UK is so *small*. Forests in the US cover 328,435,469 hectares. For
that matter this state alone has more than 9 million hectares of forests. About 2.2 million ha are privately owned, the rest are federal, state, or tribal land.
On 14/12/2025 11:23, Daniel70 wrote:
On 10/12/2025 10:08 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/12/2025 05:27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:Hmm! Should one be asking WHY you are wondering that??
The plastic bags for fruit and vegetable are made out of starch
based material. I hear that there are problems with those as they
disintegrate but they go into landfills where they can do it
peacefully.
PLA, the go-to plastic for 3D printing, is made out of cornstarch. I
am not sire how degradable it is, but it doesn't like sunlight
The problem with biodegradable plastic is that it biodegrades during
the service life of the unit that is built with it.
Much netter to burn it in a high temperature incinerator equipped
with scrubbers.
I wonder how much pollution comes from burning the average human
corpse.
Has anybody heard from TNP's partner lately?? ;-P
What partner?
On 16/12/2025 5:19 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2025 11:23, Daniel70 wrote:Mother?? Father?? Sisters?? Brothers?? ;-P
On 10/12/2025 10:08 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/12/2025 05:27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:Hmm! Should one be asking WHY you are wondering that??
The plastic bags for fruit and vegetable are made out of starch
based material. I hear that there are problems with those as they
disintegrate but they go into landfills where they can do it
peacefully.
PLA, the go-to plastic for 3D printing, is made out of cornstarch. I
am not sire how degradable it is, but it doesn't like sunlight
The problem with biodegradable plastic is that it biodegrades during
the service life of the unit that is built with it.
Much netter to burn it in a high temperature incinerator equipped
with scrubbers.
I wonder how much pollution comes from burning the average human
corpse.
Has anybody heard from TNP's partner lately?? ;-P
What partner?
Joking of course.
On 16/12/2025 5:59 am, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
I've been on that trail. There are quite a few mines like that that
never paid out and were abandoned and Pulaski was lucky to know about
that one.
Still, it takes a lot of self control to shelter in a mine and hope for
the best, but it's better than climbing into a Shaken'Bake I guess.
One might hope that it wasn't a Coal mine .... or, otherwise, hope the
Coal was well and truly played out! ;-P
Grants for new planting, fines for stripping. Then the US wouldn't need Canadian lumber.
On 12/14/25 07:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-14 05:52, c186282 wrote:
On 12/13/25 14:46, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 21:16:22 +1100, Daniel70 wrote:
On 13/12/2025 5:42 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 21:11:22 +1100, Daniel70 wrote:Hey, have we got the same "generic female greeting"??
So I brought one of those "Answer machine and Two handset" systems >>>>>>> ....
so now, if I get a call, I can let the Answer machine pick up the >>>>>>> call
and then, if it's a Real call, I can pick up the phone whilst 'they >>>>>>> are leaving a message.
If its a Robotcall, it/they usually hang up whilst my "I'm not here, >>>>>>> leave a message" message is rattling off!Job done!
That works for me. It was humorous when I got a new machine and
didn't
bother recording a message, leaving the generic female greeting that >>>>>> came with it. The first time my ex called and got the machine "You've >>>>>> got a live in?" she asked.
Probably. Its not quite robotic and probably is a clip spoken by a real >>>> human but is very bland.
-a-a My ATT unit has a fake male voice. That's PROBABLY
-a-a better because it implies there's a big strong man
-a-a living there instead of a 5'2" woman.
-a-a Have a spare one. Landline will probably be obsoleted
-a-a before I ever need it.
-a-a No caller-ID on the unit, but my phone does that.
-a-a Alas it can NOT detect spoofing. Pretty much nothing
-a-a commercial will. CID spoofing is mostly done by sending
-a-a the little data packet a tad EARLY, before the carrier
-a-a normally would. Yer device accepts the fake, and then
-a-a ignores the subsequent carrier update. This WOULD be
-a-a easy to detect ... except nobody bothers. Wonder why ?
Not sure, but my guess is the hack was invented later.
-a I'd build a spoof-detector, but phone lines are
-a nefariously difficult to link to (legally). You
-a need a special transformer, rather narrow resistance
-a and capacitance specs. Any Pi, even a Pico, could
-a do the deed IF it wouldn't trash yer line.
On 12/14/25 07:38, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-14 06:18, c186282 wrote:
On 12/13/25 15:06, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 07:00:19 -0500, Paul wrote:
Usually on a clear cut lot, there are lots and lots of
"stumps" and nobody gives a shit about those. That's why the
field in that video is suspiciously "too good to be true".
As the years pass, the stumps will rot and be digested like
normal. It's just the stumps are a hazard right after a
clear cut session.
In this area, make that 'many years'. We had a bad fire in
2003 that took some areas down to mineral soil. Long after the
fire stumps were still burning out the underground root
systems. 22 years later you still have to be careful off trail
not to step in a pit. The areas were not replanted so there
are very few trees.
-a-a This is what happened in California ... nobody was
-a-a allowed to dig and put out the burning roots. Two
-a-a weeks later and ........
What happened?
-a Ummm ... missed THAT news ???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2025_Southern_California_wildfires
-a HUGE, widespread, EXPENSIVE damage and some deaths.
-a Even made the Euro news.
The areas managed by the Forest Service have made out better.-a-a I've seen many replant areas. Yes, trees grow - but
I've helped mark out a few timber sales. The trees to go are
sprayed blue at breast height and the roots, the keepers
orange. The lower paint is to keep people honest since you can
tell what was cut from the stump. Often though the sale is
never bid on since selective harvesting is more expensive.>>>
-a-a the replanting puts them too close together. No sun
-a-a gets to the ground, it's not a complete ecosystem.
-a-a In the interim period there's a lot of soil erosion.
Here they tried putting straw on the ground to reduce erosion.
-a Um ... straw BURNS.
-a Also not sure it fully qualifies as 'ground-cover' in
-a the 'natural' sense. Proper ground-cover includes a
-a number of plant/mold/fungi species and a certain
-a inventory of insects and worms. These "pre-process"
-a stuff falling from the trees and blowing in from the
-a general environment - releasing a variety of nutrients.
-a The fungi also bind the soil and help hold moisture.
-a A proper forest eco-system is hard to fake.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 02:50:16 -0500, c186282 wrote:
Got in my new little Pavilion, the keyboard crapped on the older one
and is NOT friendly to replace.
Used the MX Linux duplicating utilities and everything from the spare
carried over (except fstab and a dir in /mnt). Had to search around
as to how to disable the touch-screen ... tended to bump it while
typing. Don't love touch-screens ....
The Lenovo I got has a touchscreen option that I fortunately didn't get
with the refurb. On one of the forums someone said they didn't even know
they had a touchscreen until they touched it by mistake.
Tablets and phones, fine, but I don't see the use on a laptop that isn't
some sort of convertible.
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
Yes, I remember there were huge fires. The most worrisome were inside
the city. Unstoppable.
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
Straw is bundled into long loose things and laid down on the
hillsides to catch the eroding soil and hopefully slow the rush of
water. No it is not an ecosystem but a poor subsitute for what cannot
be recreated quickly.
Mine has a touch screen. I don't actually use it, but I was curious. It
works as a mouse.
On 12/16/25 12:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
-a-a-a-aI may be able to shed light.-a Roots of plants, trees and bushes can smoulder underground with very little oxygen but when they reach fuel
and air can burn with fresh vigor.
-a-a-a-aMy family suffered from such an incident in the 1940s and it wiped out the new chicken house on which our farm hoped to profit.
-a-a-a-aStraw is bundled into long loose things and laid down on the hillsides to catch the eroding soil and hopefully slow the rush of
water.-a No it is not an ecosystem but a poor subsitute for what
cannot be recreated quickly.
-a-a-a-aI see that we have sod farms where grass was previously
exclusively grown.-a Now a new product has appeared which is
native plants and especially in this case wild flowers which are
to use to attract and feed pollinators.-a A similar product might
be used in the future to recreate more quickly the fire-damaged
ecosystem or so it seems to me.
Some kind of 'bio-goop' containing agents that thicken soil, retain
moisture, combined with some fungal spores and simple grass seeds
.... ?
On 12/16/25 12:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
-a-a-a-aI may be able to shed light.-a Roots of plants, trees and bushes can smoulder underground with very little oxygen but when they reach fuel
and air can burn with fresh vigor.
-a-a-a-aMy family suffered from such an incident in the 1940s and it wiped out the new chicken house on which our farm hoped to profit.
-a-a-a-aStraw is bundled into long loose things and laid down on the hillsides to catch the eroding soil and hopefully slow the rush of
water.-a No it is not an ecosystem but a poor subsitute for what
cannot be recreated quickly.
-a-a-a-aI see that we have sod farms where grass was previously--
exclusively grown.-a Now a new product has appeared which is
native plants and especially in this case wild flowers which are
to use to attract and feed pollinators.-a A similar product might
be used in the future to recreate more quickly the fire-damaged
ecosystem or so it seems to me.
-a-a-a-abliss
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 21:42:46 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Yes, I remember there were huge fires. The most worrisome were inside
the city. Unstoppable.
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-10-30/firefighters-ordered- to-leave-smoldering-palisades-burn-site
"details about the Los Angeles Fire DepartmentrCOs handling of the Lachman fire, which federal investigators say was deliberately set and had burned underground in a canyon root system until the winds rekindled it. The
third party asked that he and the firefighters not be named because they
were not authorized to speak publicly. The LAFD declined to comment on the text messages but has said officials believed the fire was fully extinguished."
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 22:07:53 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Mine has a touch screen. I don't actually use it, but I was curious. It
works as a mouse.
Including the greasy little trails? Every now and then I give the phone
and tablets an alcohol wipe down when they get too disgusting.
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around for some
time after the fire is put out.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for many
months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around for some
time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-release-100- >times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Possibly some of the cause is the ponderosa pines are large trees but have >very shallow roots so some oxygen is available. In the 2003 fire there was >no rekindling since there was nothing left to burn.
On 2025-12-17 01:51, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 21:42:46 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Yes, I remember there were huge fires. The most worrisome were inside
the city. Unstoppable.
But I still do not understand what you said about the roots. :-?
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-10-30/firefighters-ordered-
to-leave-smoldering-palisades-burn-site
"details about the Los Angeles Fire DepartmentrCOs handling of the Lachman >> fire, which federal investigators say was deliberately set and had burned
underground in a canyon root system until the winds rekindled it. The
third party asked that he and the firefighters not be named because they
were not authorized to speak publicly. The LAFD declined to comment on
the
text messages but has said officials believed the fire was fully
extinguished."
I see.
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around for some time after the fire is put out.
On 19 Dec 2025 02:01:51 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for many >>> months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around for some >>> time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-release-100- >> times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Possibly some of the cause is the ponderosa pines are large trees but have >> very shallow roots so some oxygen is available. In the 2003 fire there was >> no rekindling since there was nothing left to burn.
Do you guys remember the coal fire that's been burning in Pennsylvania
since 1962? They expect it to burn for another 250 years before it burns
out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
On 19 Dec 2025 02:01:51 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around
for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Possibly some of the cause is the ponderosa pines are large trees but
have very shallow roots so some oxygen is available. In the 2003 fire
there was no rekindling since there was nothing left to burn.
Do you guys remember the coal fire that's been burning in Pennsylvania
since 1962? They expect it to burn for another 250 years before it burns
out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
On 2025-12-17 02:15, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 22:07:53 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Mine has a touch screen. I don't actually use it, but I was curious. It
works as a mouse.
Including the greasy little trails? Every now and then I give the phone
and tablets an alcohol wipe down when they get too disgusting.
I use an specific screen cleaning product from my local supermarket :-)
No, I mean I was curious to find out if a touch screen could be useful.
On Thu, 12/18/2025 4:49 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-17 02:15, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 22:07:53 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Mine has a touch screen. I don't actually use it, but I was curious. It >>>> works as a mouse.
Including the greasy little trails? Every now and then I give the phone
and tablets an alcohol wipe down when they get too disgusting.
I use an specific screen cleaning product from my local supermarket :-)
No, I mean I was curious to find out if a touch screen could be useful.
Touch screens support gestures.
I can give an example at the mall. The mall has a very large touchscreen
for directory lookup. I would touch the screen with a knuckle (as it's
not a particularly high-precision touch screen). There is an OSK on the screen, you can use a knuckle to tap out the letters of the store name.
I had selected a store and was encouraging the map to move towards
the store in question.
Well, the screen got rotated. I couldn't figure out what to do.
Then I remembered some conversations from here, about Windows 8 gestures.
I put two fingers on the screen, moved the fingers together ("pinch")
and then rotated the fingers. The entire map rotated in response.
That's one gesture that came in handy, at the mall screen. I'm sure any
of the teenagers at the mall knew that, but it took me at least a
minute to dig that up.
Another popular gesture is the "mark of Zorro", which is the letter Z.
If you make a motion like the letter Z, that is "dismiss" and will
close an application window. Without having to touch a knuckle to the
"X" in the upper right corner.
At work, we had CAD software, with gestures. You made gestures with the mouse.
A touch screen is not necessary. Well, my fellow engineers, upon learning
of the "dismiss" gesture, you could look across the room, and it
looked like a "Zorro contest" :-) A bunch of idiots making Z letters
using their mouse :-)
The reason I have to pass that one on to you, is the anecdotal findings
on gestures, is users can only memorize a small set of them. The "suite" might have twenty gestures. The users might remember two of them. They
can Zorro like crazy... because they don't remember the others. And
that is a simplified account of gestures...
The Zorro crap eventually lost its charm, and the mouse was used
with less flourish because frankly, the staff were exhausted from too
many days of overtime. Our star engineer, used to complain that he
hadn't seen his girlfriend in months. To which we would reply "what girlfriend?".
As a measure of the hopelessness of the situation.
Paul
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 00:58:03 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
On 19 Dec 2025 02:01:51 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around
for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Possibly some of the cause is the ponderosa pines are large trees but >>>have very shallow roots so some oxygen is available. In the 2003 fire >>>there was no rekindling since there was nothing left to burn.
Do you guys remember the coal fire that's been burning in Pennsylvania
since 1962? They expect it to burn for another 250 years before it burns
out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Er, yeah. The link is in the material you quoted, along with the Laurel
Run link.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for many
months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around for some
time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-release-100- times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Possibly some of the cause is the ponderosa pines are large trees but have very shallow roots so some oxygen is available. In the 2003 fire there was--
no rekindling since there was nothing left to burn.
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around
for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump filling
the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the
mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around
for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump filling
the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the
mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
That's it in a nutshell. They thought they were dealing with a strip mine
or basically a big hole in the ground that was filled with garbage and burning it was a good idea. They didn't realize the garbage was covering
the entrance to a labyrinth of underground coal mines.
Setting fire to garbage was illegal in the first place so they messed
around trying to cover their tracks and kept getting deeper and deeper in shit. The miners followed coal veins so it was a real labyrinth.
https://storyofbutte.org/files/show/5725
Butte was copper mines but the whole town is sort of sitting on an ant
hill. There is a museum there that has so 3D models that were prepared for lawsuits that are really impressive. The suits occurred when Company A following a vein broke through into Company B's tunnels. I have no idea
how they even knew where they were.
Butte has the opposite problem to a mine fire. When they switched to an
open pit and turned off the pumps in the underground mine tunnels the
whole mess filled with highly toxic water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven with filters for toxic fumes.
On Sat, 12/20/2025 7:15 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven with filters for toxic fumes.
An entrepreneur tried this and eventually gave up.
The process was not clean enough to be used, without consequences.
Any of the chemists I graduated with, could have told this person it won't work.
It might have been something like dioxin. There was never a "final report"
or "lessons learned", to put a stop to someone else trying it.
"When plastic burns, it releases a cocktail of harmful chemicals into the air.
These include dioxins, furans, mercury, and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).
Dioxins, in particular, are known carcinogens and can cause reproductive and
developmental problems, damage the immune system, and interfere with hormones."
There is a difference between filtering a truly trace chemical, and buckets of bad stuff coming out the bottom of the rig.
This is what happens when the consumption method is not at a high enough temperature. Raising the temperature of the process, increases the
price per ton, of the processing. But humans will "try to burn that shit
with gasoline", and even with a pure oxygen supply for help (dangerous),
the temperature of the output reactants is too low. Only a few combustive
gas mixtures, give relatively high output temperatures, and usually involve relatively tiny molecules. It's possible an acceptable combustion process needs three times that temperature, a plasma of some kind maybe. You can't get there with combustion, it's going to take something a lot more whizzy (and energy consumptive).
The Sun would make a good garbage bucket. But you'd have to find an article that analyzes the consequences (other than the cost per ton of launching garbage).
A fusion reactor gets nice and warm. The ignition facility (NIF) in the States
used for fusion research, the target zone there gets nice and warm, but
this is hardly cheap kit to be burning garbage. In the fusion reactor,
you're ruin the containment walls, with discarded tomato sandwich splatter :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility#/media/File:NIF_target_chamber_2.jpg
There are continuing comments in the local news, about "solving our garbage problem by burning it". I was born in a city that did this, burned garbage
in a relatively low temperature incinerator. I've been to that incinerator
in a pickup truck. The tailgate fell off our truck, into the pit which buffers
the garbage fed into the incinerator. It's 200 feet down. There is a ladder on
the side of the pit, covered in slime, for you to climb down :-) Well, the crane operator at the pit was a champ. He picked up our tailgate with the bucket scoop jaws, pulled it up the two hundred feet, and deposited it
on the ground next to the offload area. It was "only a little bit bent".
That incinerator used to shower us in soot and fallen debris. Any washing outside, would get covered in debris and need to be washed again. It all depended on the wind direction, as to who got the "output".
They don't do that any more. But I bet the politicians reminisce about
how "successful" that operation was. Today, there is a lawn over top of everything that went on there, and methane vent pipes on the premises.
That garbage today, is like most cities, driven out of town on 40 foot trailers
and such.
Today, a new town dump costs about $500,000,000 to build, and has a
liner in the bottom to collect toxic fluids. That figure, is what
stokes all this interest in combustion :-)
On 2025-12-20 18:14, Paul wrote:
On Sat, 12/20/2025 7:15 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven with filters for toxic fumes.
An entrepreneur tried this and eventually gave up.
The process was not clean enough to be used, without consequences.
Any of the chemists I graduated with, could have told this person it won't work.
It might have been something like dioxin. There was never a "final report" >> or "lessons learned", to put a stop to someone else trying it.
Well, there are countries doing it, and they claim to be happy about it. Switzerland, for instance.
-a-a-a "When plastic burns, it releases a cocktail of harmful chemicals into the air.
-a-a-a-a These include dioxins, furans, mercury, and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).
-a-a-a-a Dioxins, in particular, are known carcinogens and can cause reproductive and
-a-a-a-a developmental problems, damage the immune system, and interfere with hormones."
There is a difference between filtering a truly trace chemical, and buckets >> of bad stuff coming out the bottom of the rig.
This is what happens when the consumption method is not at a high enough
temperature. Raising the temperature of the process, increases the
price per ton, of the processing. But humans will "try to burn that shit
with gasoline", and even with a pure oxygen supply for help (dangerous),
the temperature of the output reactants is too low. Only a few combustive
gas mixtures, give relatively high output temperatures, and usually involve >> relatively tiny molecules. It's possible an acceptable combustion process
needs three times that temperature, a plasma of some kind maybe. You can't >> get there with combustion, it's going to take something a lot more whizzy
(and energy consumptive).
The Sun would make a good garbage bucket. But you'd have to find an article >> that analyzes the consequences (other than the cost per ton of launching
garbage).
A fusion reactor gets nice and warm. The ignition facility (NIF) in the States
used for fusion research, the target zone there gets nice and warm, but
this is hardly cheap kit to be burning garbage. In the fusion reactor,
you're ruin the containment walls, with discarded tomato sandwich splatter :-)
-a-a-a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility#/media/File:NIF_target_chamber_2.jpg
There are continuing comments in the local news, about "solving our garbage >> problem by burning it". I was born in a city that did this, burned garbage >> in a relatively low temperature incinerator. I've been to that incinerator >> in a pickup truck. The tailgate fell off our truck, into the pit which buffers
the garbage fed into the incinerator. It's 200 feet down. There is a ladder on
the side of the pit, covered in slime, for you to climb down :-) Well, the >> crane operator at the pit was a champ. He picked up our tailgate with the
bucket scoop jaws, pulled it up the two hundred feet, and deposited it
on the ground next to the offload area. It was "only a little bit bent".
That incinerator used to shower us in soot and fallen debris. Any washing
outside, would get covered in debris and need to be washed again. It all
depended on the wind direction, as to who got the "output".
They don't do that any more. But I bet the politicians reminisce about
how "successful" that operation was. Today, there is a lawn over top of
everything that went on there, and methane vent pipes on the premises.
That garbage today, is like most cities, driven out of town on 40 foot trailers
and such.
Today, a new town dump costs about $500,000,000 to build, and has a
liner in the bottom to collect toxic fluids. That figure, is what
stokes all this interest in combustion :-)
I agree with you, but some people tell me that the EU sanctioned way is an incinerator.
On Sat, 12/20/2025 1:46 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-20 18:14, Paul wrote:
On Sat, 12/20/2025 7:15 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I agree with you, but some people tell me that the EU sanctioned way is an incinerator.
The article here, goes into the detail of all the steps to control the output.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incineration
The thing someone was working on here, was some sort of sealed method, so
it didn't involve large volumes of materials moving though a plant. the steps in the Wikipedia description would require a fairly large building to do the work.
Even the crude incinerator we used to have, which had the fly ash problem,
it was a rather large facility. You couldn't see the incineration part, as
it was up closer to where the crane operator lived. The waste was lifted up maybe a hundred feet (above grade) and deposited out of eyesight. The pit went
down two hundred feet below grade. (The garbage trucks could dump directly
at the pit edge.) The incinerator had a stack, but the "fallout" from the tall stack, meant the bit that did not fall right at the
incineration stack... fell at our house.
I doubt that incinerator, had any of the refinements from the Wikipedia article.
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven with filters for toxic fumes.
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven
with filters for toxic fumes.
I agree with you, but some people tell me that the EU sanctioned way is
an incinerator.
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around
for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump filling
the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the
mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
That's it in a nutshell. They thought they were dealing with a strip mine
or basically a big hole in the ground that was filled with garbage and burning it was a good idea. They didn't realize the garbage was covering
the entrance to a labyrinth of underground coal mines.
On 2025-12-20 05:48, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for
many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around >>>>> for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump filling
the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the
mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
That's it in a nutshell. They thought they were dealing with a strip mine
or basically a big hole in the ground that was filled with garbage and
burning it was a good idea. They didn't realize the garbage was covering
the entrance to a labyrinth of underground coal mines.
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven
with filters for toxic fumes.
Setting fire to garbage was illegal in the first place so they messed
around trying to cover their tracks and kept getting deeper and deeper in
shit. The miners followed coal veins so it was a real labyrinth.
https://storyofbutte.org/files/show/5725
Butte was copper mines but the whole town is sort of sitting on an ant
hill. There is a museum there that has so 3D models that were prepared
for
lawsuits that are really impressive. The suits occurred when Company A
following a vein broke through into Company B's tunnels. I have no idea
how they even knew where they were.
Butte has the opposite problem to a mine fire. When they switched to an
open pit and turned off the pumps in the underground mine tunnels the
whole mess filled with highly toxic water.
So they can not drain that toxic water. :-(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
rCLA protozoan species, Euglena mutabilis, was found to reside in the pit
by Andrea A. Stierle and Donald B. Stierle, and the protozoans have been found to have adapted to the harsh conditions of the water. Intense competition for the limited resources caused these species to evolve the production of highly toxic compounds to improve survivability. Natural products such as berkeleydione, berkeleytrione,[18] and berkelic
acid[19] have been isolated from these organisms which show selective activity against cancer cell lines. Some of these species ingest metals
and are being investigated as an alternative means of cleaning the water.[20]rCY
Wow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
One of their storylines (from the '60's) was about a group of people
that fell through the crust over an old, burnt out rubbish dump that had smouldered away over the years and left behind a great chasm that some
people had fallen into and needed rescuing from!!
Ah!! There you go!! https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0766145/?ref_=ttep_ep_2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
Yep, they delayed The Problem. Likely will NEVER have the money to
actually deal with it.
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 15:24:48 -0500, c186282 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
Yep, they delayed The Problem. Likely will NEVER have the money to
actually deal with it.
https://clarkforkrivercleanup.org/cleanup-history
The Berkeley Pit is only part of the problem. The state's suit against
ARCO was a classic. ARCO's position was 'We only bought the assets, not
the liabilities'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Smelter_Stack
The rest of the story is Anaconda bought the land downwind of the stack
where the fumes were killing everything. Even today there isn't much
besides a few stunted trees. Probably not a good place to camp.
For real creativity, build a golf course on the toxic waste.
https://nicklausdesign.com/course/oldworks/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Reservoir_Superfund_Site
There were a lot of nervous people in '96 when it was thought the dam
might go. They don't mention the pickerel :) There used to be a annual Pickerel Derby at the reservoir. Before the dam was removed they poisoned
the reservoir, not wanting to release a bunch of voracious fish.
The downstream fishing access sites used to have signs saying not to eat
the fish too frequently and to not eat the pike at all. The signs have
been revised to not eat any of the fish. The settling ponds at the
abandoned pulp mill are starting to leak into the river. Yet another clean up. Smurfit-Stone filed Chapter 11 in 2009 so good luck getting blood out
of that turnip.
What are you proposing? Onerous regulation of the toxin producers?
On 12/21/25 15:10, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 15:24:48 -0500, c186282 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
-a-a-a Yep, they delayed The Problem. Likely will NEVER have the money to >>> -a-a-a actually deal with it.
https://clarkforkrivercleanup.org/cleanup-history
The Berkeley Pit is only part of the problem. The state's suit against
ARCO was a classic. ARCO's position was 'We only bought the assets, not
the liabilities'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Smelter_Stack
The rest of the story is Anaconda bought the land downwind of the stack
where the fumes were killing everything. Even today there isn't much
besides a few stunted trees. Probably not a good place to camp.
For real creativity, build a golf course on the toxic waste.
https://nicklausdesign.com/course/oldworks/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Reservoir_Superfund_Site
There were a lot of nervous people in '96 when it was thought the dam
might go. They don't mention the pickerel :) There used to be a annual
Pickerel Derby at the reservoir. Before the dam was removed they poisoned
the reservoir, not wanting to release a bunch of voracious fish.
The downstream fishing access sites used to have signs saying not to eat
the fish too frequently and to not eat the pike at all. The signs have
been revised to not eat any of the fish. The settling ponds at the
abandoned pulp mill are starting to leak into the river. Yet another
clean
up. Smurfit-Stone filed Chapter 11 in 2009 so good luck getting blood out
of that turnip.
-a-a-a-aWhat are you proposing? Onerous regulation of the toxin producers?
-a-a-a-aWow.
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 15:34:56 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
What are you proposing? Onerous regulation of the toxin producers?
https://miningconnection.com/surface/news/article/ montana_gov._gianforte_tours_barricks_golden_sunlight_mine
We'll see how that works out. Somebody had Barrick by the balls. The usual case is the toxin producers grabbed the money and ran.
I do hav a problem with corporations privatizing the profits and
socializing the costs whether it's leaving an environmental disaster in
their wake, Walmart depending on food stamps to keep their part time 'associates' fed, or moving jobs overseas while raking in money from the
US.
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-20 05:48, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for >>>>>> many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around >>>>>> for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump filling >>>> the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the
mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
That's it in a nutshell. They thought they were dealing with a strip
mine
or basically a big hole in the ground that was filled with garbage and
burning it was a good idea. They didn't realize the garbage was covering >>> the entrance to a labyrinth of underground coal mines.
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven
with filters for toxic fumes.
-a Massive energy expended doing that. You'd need natural
-a gas, likely burnt under pressure to make it even hotter.
-a Then ... HOW many "filters" or how many kinds do you go
-a through in a week, maybe a day ?
-a So, instead, they just bury it.
Setting fire to garbage was illegal in the first place so they messed
around trying to cover their tracks and kept getting deeper and
deeper in
shit. The miners followed coal veins so it was a real labyrinth.
https://storyofbutte.org/files/show/5725
Butte was copper mines but the whole town is sort of sitting on an ant
hill. There is a museum there that has so 3D models that were
prepared for
lawsuits that are really impressive. The suits occurred when Company A
following a vein broke through into Company B's tunnels. I have no idea
how they even knew where they were.
Butte has the opposite problem to a mine fire. When they switched to an
open pit and turned off the pumps in the underground mine tunnels the
whole mess filled with highly toxic water.
So they can not drain that toxic water. :-(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
-a Yep, they delayed The Problem. Likely will NEVER have
-a the money to actually deal with it.
rCLA protozoan species, Euglena mutabilis, was found to reside in the
pit by Andrea A. Stierle and Donald B. Stierle, and the protozoans
have been found to have adapted to the harsh conditions of the water.
Intense competition for the limited resources caused these species to
evolve the production of highly toxic compounds to improve
survivability. Natural products such as berkeleydione,
berkeleytrione,[18] and berkelic acid[19] have been isolated from
these organisms which show selective activity against cancer cell
lines. Some of these species ingest metals and are being investigated
as an alternative means of cleaning the water.[20]rCY
Wow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
-a There are orgs that can live in almost any environment.
-a However just because they can 'eat' compounds does not
-a mean the ultimate products, or poop, aren't still toxic
-a as all hell to humans.
-a We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL
-a issues. However that stuff DOES travel and winds up
-a everywhere. Not necessarily so much in a year ... but
-a 20, 50, 100+ years ? "Chemical industries" started in
-a the early 1800s by and large.
-a It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air.
-a More and more every year. Some VERY creative catalytic
-a compounds and engineered biologicals are going to be
-a required to render that stuff 'safe' - and it'll take
-a another century or two. What does it do to us and lots
-a of other life in the meanwhile ?
-a Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all
-a away for us ... right ?
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don't just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way into The Sun.
On 2025-12-20 05:48, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:release-100-
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not heard of root fire in my country. Peat fire going on for >>>>>>> many months, yes. Rekindling a forest fire, yes. Crews remain around >>>>>>> for some time after the fire is put out.
https://thebulletin.org/2021/03/underground-zombie-peat-fires-
times-the-carbon-of-wildfires/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire
Let me see if I understood. The city set fire to a garbage dump
filling
the huge hole of an old open air mine, and the fire propagated to the >>>>> mine, which happened to be a coal mine?
That's it in a nutshell. They thought they were dealing with a strip
mine
or basically a big hole in the ground that was filled with garbage and >>>> burning it was a good idea. They didn't realize the garbage was
covering
the entrance to a labyrinth of underground coal mines.
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven
with filters for toxic fumes.
-a-a Massive energy expended doing that. You'd need natural
-a-a gas, likely burnt under pressure to make it even hotter.
-a-a Then ... HOW many "filters" or how many kinds do you go
-a-a through in a week, maybe a day ?
-a-a So, instead, they just bury it.
Setting fire to garbage was illegal in the first place so they messed
around trying to cover their tracks and kept getting deeper and
deeper in
shit. The miners followed coal veins so it was a real labyrinth.
https://storyofbutte.org/files/show/5725
Butte was copper mines but the whole town is sort of sitting on an ant >>>> hill. There is a museum there that has so 3D models that were
prepared for
lawsuits that are really impressive. The suits occurred when Company A >>>> following a vein broke through into Company B's tunnels. I have no idea >>>> how they even knew where they were.
Butte has the opposite problem to a mine fire. When they switched to an >>>> open pit and turned off the pumps in the underground mine tunnels the
whole mess filled with highly toxic water.
So they can not drain that toxic water. :-(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
-a-a Yep, they delayed The Problem. Likely will NEVER have
-a-a the money to actually deal with it.
rCLA protozoan species, Euglena mutabilis, was found to reside in the
pit by Andrea A. Stierle and Donald B. Stierle, and the protozoans
have been found to have adapted to the harsh conditions of the water.
Intense competition for the limited resources caused these species to
evolve the production of highly toxic compounds to improve
survivability. Natural products such as berkeleydione,
berkeleytrione,[18] and berkelic acid[19] have been isolated from
these organisms which show selective activity against cancer cell
lines. Some of these species ingest metals and are being investigated
as an alternative means of cleaning the water.[20]rCY
Wow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
-a-a There are orgs that can live in almost any environment.
-a-a However just because they can 'eat' compounds does not
-a-a mean the ultimate products, or poop, aren't still toxic
-a-a as all hell to humans.
-a-a We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL
-a-a issues. However that stuff DOES travel and winds up
-a-a everywhere. Not necessarily so much in a year ... but
-a-a 20, 50, 100+ years ? "Chemical industries" started in
-a-a the early 1800s by and large.
-a-a It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air.
-a-a More and more every year. Some VERY creative catalytic
-a-a compounds and engineered biologicals are going to be
-a-a required to render that stuff 'safe' - and it'll take
-a-a another century or two. What does it do to us and lots
-a-a of other life in the meanwhile ?
-a-a Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all
-a-a away for us ... right ?
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST be somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST beFunny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general
direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
"Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for garbage disposal. "Orbit".
Paul
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST be somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-
falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
On 23/12/2025 11:40, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general
direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let >>> it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
"Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image
for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for garbage disposal. "Orbit".
I prefer the method used by Bill, the Galactic Hero, who used free government postage and the Galactic Census to mail it to far flung
corners of the galaxy where they don't have any stuff at all.
He crucified Heinlein with that one....
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST beFunny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general
direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
"Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for garbage disposal. "Orbit".
Paul
On 23/12/2025 11:40, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST be >>> somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don't
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general
direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let >>> it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
-a-a-a "Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image
for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for
garbage disposal. "Orbit".
-a-a-a Paul
I prefer the method used by Bill, the Galactic Hero,-a who used free government postage and the Galactic Census to mail it to far flung
corners of the galaxy where they don't have any stuff at all.
He crucified Heinlein with that one....
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST beFunny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general
direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
"Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for garbage disposal. "Orbit".
On 23/12/2025 10:40 pm, Paul wrote:[...]
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.The problem I see with that is that one day WE will inhabit some of
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
"Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image
for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg
?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for
garbage disposal. "Orbit".
the Moons of Jupiter and I wouldn't want our 'NOW' Garbage to be there waiting for us.
The problem I see with that is that one day WE will inhabit some of the Moons of Jupiter and I wouldn't want our 'NOW' Garbage to be there
waiting for us.
On 23/12/2025 11:41 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/12/2025 11:40, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 12/23/2025 5:31 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
Voyager 1 was launched Sept 5, 1977 and is the only man made craft toYes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocketFunny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don't >>>>>> just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way >>>>>> into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings >>>>>> perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
MUST be
somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece. >>>>
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general >>>> direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just
let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
Apparently, the garbage-to-Sun trajectory isn't all that easy.
Jupiter might be an easier target.
Once you're out of the gravity well, it does not matter where
the garbage goes, right ? The cloud cover over Jupiter, will hide
all the beer cans and Glad Garbage Bags.
And a lot of research work has already gone into this. From 1969.
-a-a-a "Winnipeg Tribune photographer Frank Chalmers set up this image
for the newspaper in November 1969."
https://i.cbc.ca/ais/1.5725255,1600527189000/full/max/0/default.jpg?im=Crop%2Crect%3D%280%2C17%2C620%2C348%29%3BResize%3D1280
You can see they've carefully considered the optimal design for
garbage disposal. "Orbit".
-a-a-a Paul
I prefer the method used by Bill, the Galactic Hero,-a who used free
government postage and the Galactic Census to mail it to far flung
corners of the galaxy where they don't have any stuff at all.
He crucified Heinlein with that one....
have (almost??) left Our Solar System, so good luck with getting
anything to the other side of Our Galaxy.
-a Actually, Mars looks like a real dump already, so ...
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST be >somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general >direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
On Sat, 20 Dec 2025 13:15:35 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Garbage should be burnt (if burnt at all) in a high temperature oven
with filters for toxic fumes.
It was the '60s :)
https://www.sbsun.com/2022/09/10/southern-californias-history-of-using- backyard-incinerators-to-dispose-of-trash/
We had one similar to the photo. My father built it with concrete blocks lined with firebrick and a grate he salvaged from someplace. The chimney
was a length of clay soil pipe.
Burning the trash became one of my favorite chores after I found I could light it off with a homemade Molotov cocktail. Like I said, it was the
'60s and nobody got too excited about big balls of fire if there was a pre-teen male around. Considering the number of boomers around a highly controlled safe environment for kids isn't absolutely necessary.
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-20 05:48, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 22:28:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-12-19 03:01, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 22:46:15 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
rCLA protozoan species, Euglena mutabilis, was found to reside in the
pit by Andrea A. Stierle and Donald B. Stierle, and the protozoans
have been found to have adapted to the harsh conditions of the water.
Intense competition for the limited resources caused these species to
evolve the production of highly toxic compounds to improve
survivability. Natural products such as berkeleydione, berkeleytrione,
[18] and berkelic acid[19] have been isolated from these organisms
which show selective activity against cancer cell lines. Some of these
species ingest metals and are being investigated as an alternative
means of cleaning the water.[20]rCY
Wow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
-a There are orgs that can live in almost any environment.
-a However just because they can 'eat' compounds does not
-a mean the ultimate products, or poop, aren't still toxic
-a as all hell to humans.
-a We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL
-a issues. However that stuff DOES travel and winds up
-a everywhere. Not necessarily so much in a year ... but
-a 20, 50, 100+ years ? "Chemical industries" started in
-a the early 1800s by and large.
-a It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air.
-a More and more every year. Some VERY creative catalytic
-a compounds and engineered biologicals are going to be
-a required to render that stuff 'safe' - and it'll take
-a another century or two. What does it do to us and lots
-a of other life in the meanwhile ?
-a Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all
-a away for us ... right ?
On 22/12/2025 11:35 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 12/22/25 05:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 22/12/2025 7:24 am, c186282 wrote:
On 12/20/25 07:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, sure, but they are 'precision' type missions ... The rocket MUST be somewhere at a precise time and make it back (hopefully) in one piece.Funny you should conclude like that. I've wondered why 'they' don'tWow, they even gave names to peculiar compounds in there.
There are orgs that can live in almost any environment. However
just because they can 'eat' compounds does not mean the ultimate
products, or poop, aren't still toxic as all hell to humans.
We LIKE to think of 'chemical contamination' as LOCAL issues.
However that stuff DOES travel and winds up everywhere. Not
necessarily so much in a year ... but 20, 50, 100+ years ?
"Chemical industries" started in the early 1800s by and large.
It's on the land, it's in the sea, it's in the air. More and more
every year. Some VERY creative catalytic compounds and engineered
biologicals are going to be required to render that stuff 'safe'
- and it'll take another century or two. What does it do to us
and lots of other life in the meanwhile ?
Oh well, the space aliens will surely beam it all away for us ...
right ?
just load all this stuff into rockets and send it on its merry way
into The Sun.
Sure, rocket launches do, occasionally, stuff up but then nothings
perfect!! i.e. Chernobyl disaster!!
https://www.technowize.com/how-much-does-a-spacex-rocket-cost-
falcon-9-vs-nasas-bill/
$2700 per pound into low earth orbit on a Falcon-9
$70,000 on a NASA rocket.
A 'one way' mission to the Sun .... just sort of aim it in the general direction and (once it's got, what, a quarter of the way there) just let
it (via Gravity) fall into The Sun. Job done.
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