From Newsgroup: alt.bible

On Mon, 26 Jan 2026 13:56:29 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

Watchtower promotes almost nothing but pure, Bible-contradicting lies:
Isaiah taught the old heavens and earth would perish, and that there
would be a new heavens and earth:

You still don't get it, do you. The heavens are those high up in power
of the ruling class. Only God and Jesus as king, and the 144,000, will
be the 'new' heavens. The new earth is the earth of only righteous
ones. (Mt 5:5)

Why would God destroy something He created long ago, and said it was
good? Humans have only contaminated a tiny, tiny fraction of the
cosmos, like a grain of sand on a beach.

The Bible uses metaphors all the time. For example, Peter tells us
that the WORLD was DESTROYED by the flood. Yet the earth is still
here. (2 Pet 3:5,6) He meant the world of mankind not on the ark.

oThe heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like
a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner; but
my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be
dismayedo (Isaiah 51:6, ESV).

oFor behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former
things shall not be remembered or come into mindo (Isaiah 65:17,
ESV).

oFor as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall
remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and
your name remaino (Isaiah 66:22, ESV).

Psalms and Hebrews confirm the heavens and earth will pass away, and be >changed like a robe:

oOf old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are
the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like
a robe, and they will pass awayo (Psalm 102:25u26, ESV).

Just like the Bible says the WORLD was DESTROYED by the flood, the old
earth will perish. (all the wicked on it)

oYou, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish,
but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a
robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changedo
(Hebrews 1:10u12, ESV).

Peter confirms the present heavens and earth will be dissolved by fire,
and that we wait for new heavens and earth:

oBut by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are
stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and
destruction of the ungodly.o (2 Peter 3:7, ESV)

oSince all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of
people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because
of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the
heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his
promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which
righteousness dwells.o (2 Peter 3:11u13, ESV)

Notice, the new heavens and earth will contain righteousness. Thus it
refers to PEOPLE, not the physical heavens and earth.

Revelation shows the fulfillment of this:

oThen I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was
found for them.o (Revelation 20:11, ESV)

Again, the word "them" implies PEOPLE.

oThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven
and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.o
(Revelation 21:1, ESV)

Well there goes the oceans, rivers, streams, and lakes. BUT IT DOESN'T
MEAN THEM. It means the sea of mankind.

After the thousand year reign of Christ (Revelation 19-20:10), The
present heavens and earth will flee away, and be replaced by a new
heavens and earth for believers (Revelation 21).

Yes, it will be a cleansed earth (people), and a cleansed ruling
class. (heavens)

I know you like everything to be literal, but new heavens and earth
means a change of government. The ruling class will be Jesus and the
144,000.

What does a landlord do when he rents out an apartment and the people
ransacked it? Burn down the apartment? No, he fixes it, then rents it
to better people. In a similar way, that what happens to the heavens
and the earth.

New Testament revelation is what governs the understanding of the Old >Testament. This is why Watchtower heretics have to spend so much time in
the Old Testament. It makes it easier for them to promote deceit if they >don't have to account for New Testament Revelation.

Your opinion is light-years away from the true meanings.

For example, Watchtower heretics try to twist verse snippets here and
there in the Old Testament which talk about the present heavens and
earth abiding "forever" (olam). They try to make a total theology out of >their misrepresentation of these Old Testament verses. Yet here are
clear biblical uses of the Hebrew word olam (often translated oforevero) >where the context proves it refers to a limited or defined period of
time, not endless duration. Scripture itself defines the limits.

The Bible does say the earth will always be here.

Ps 104:5,

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed
for ever." (KJV)

Also Ec 1:4,

"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."
(NIV)

Ps 78:69,

" He built his shrine like the heavens, like the earth which he
founded forever. " (NAB)

And Ps 119:90,

oThrough all generations your truth endures; fixed to stand firm like
the earth.o (NAB)

oI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pito (Jonah 2:6,
ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
oForevero describes his experience, not endless time.

Yes, it probably seemed like forever being in that , stone grinding,
acid rich place for 3 days.

oThen his master shall bring him to Goda and he shall be his
slave forever [olam]o (Exodus 21:6, ESV).

Yes, we all have 'forevers' waiting for us at our end.

This lasted for the servantAs lifetime, not eternally.

oI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD
and dwell there forever [olam]o (1 Samuel 1:22, ESV).

oAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDo (1 Samuel 1:28,
ESV).

The text itself explains olam as oas long as he lives.o

oAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]o (Deuteronomy 15:17,
ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

Don't you know that "forever" can also mean eternally.

-- Living Bible
Revelation 1:6 He has gathered us into his Kingdom and made us
priests of God his Father. Give to him everlasting glory! He rules
forever! Amen!

-- William's NewTestament
Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth,
underneath the earth, and on the sea, and all that they contain, say: "Blessing, honor, glory, and power be to Him who is seated on the
throne and to the Lamb forever."

-- New King James
1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.'' Now this is
the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Yes, depending upon the context, we can see which way to go.

oSo these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial
forever [olam]o (Joshua 4:7, ESV).

In this case, it would be up to the time that God and Jesus abandoned
the people of Israel back then: Mt 23:37,38,

37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and
stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but
you were not willing!
38. "See! Your house is left to you desolate;

The stones existed as long as the memorial stood, not eternally.

oLift up your heads, O gatesa O ancient doors [olam]o (Psalm
24:7, ESV).

The doors are old, not eternal.

See above

oHe looked and shook the nations; then the eternal [olam]
mountains were scatteredo (Habakkuk 3:6, ESV).

Mountains called oeternalo are still shaken and altered by God.

If that is God's will.

oThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam]a
until the Spirit is poured upon uso (Isaiah 32:14u15, ESV).

Olam explicitly ends when God acts.

That is obvious. It says "until".

oMaking their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever
[olam]o (Jeremiah 18:16, ESV).

IsraelAs desolation did not last eternally.

See above

Key biblical truth:

Olam does not mean oendless by definition.o It means duration viewed
from the standpoint of the subjectuoften long, undefined, or complete
within GodAs purpose. Context determines its length. Scripture itself >repeatedly places boundaries on it.

Therefore:

When passages say the earth oremains forevero or the righteous dwell in
the land oforever,o the word itself does not demand eternal preservation
of the present creation.

Negatrons, see above where forever means forever. Such as:

-- Living Bible
Psalms 104:5 You bound the world together so that it would never fall
apart.

-- Revised Standard
Psalms 104:5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it
should never be shaken.

-- Darby's Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation
cometh, but the earth standeth for ever.

-- Webster's Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another]
generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

"For ever". They split the word. It now means eternally.
I see what you are doing, since the word can have more than one
meaning, you choose the meaning that is not eternally, so as to
contradict the Bible's claim of an eternal earth.

This should help to explain that the earth really will be here
eternally, forever, for ever.

-- New King James
Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is
God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did
not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord,
and there is no other.

Are you saying God lied here?

It allows for continuity through judgment,
transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25u26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7u13, ESV).

See above.

Make no mistake. The present heavens and earth WILL be destroyed by
fire, folded up like a garment, and flee. They will be replaced with a
new heavens and earth, where God will dwell with all believers, not just >144,000 Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation.

Negatrons, negatrons. You are making the Bible again fit to your
doctrines.

And Paul talked about SPIRITUAL Jews on the inside. Thus the 144,000
can be make up of people all over the world, who became Christians.
Rom 2:28,29,

" 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that
circumcision which is outward in the flesh;
29. but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not
from men but from God." (NKJV)

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/28/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me


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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLThe heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like
a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner; but
my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be
dismayedrCY (Isaiah 51:6, ESV).

rCLFor behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former
things shall not be remembered or come into mindrCY (Isaiah 65:17,
ESV).

rCLFor as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall
remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and
your name remainrCY (Isaiah 66:22, ESV).

Psalms and Hebrews confirm the heavens and earth will pass away, and be
changed like a robe:

rCLOf old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are
the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like
a robe, and they will pass awayrCY (Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV).

Just like the Bible says the WORLD was DESTROYED by the flood, the old
earth will perish. (all the wicked on it)

That argument still fails, because Scripture does not allow you to
equate the flood with the final judgment.

You are assuming that because the earth survived the flood, it must also survive the Day of the Lord in the same way. Peter explicitly denies
that assumption.

You point to the flood and say, rCLThe world was destroyed, yet the earth remained.rCY Peter agrees with that historical fact. But he does not use
it to argue permanence. He uses it to argue escalation.

rCLThe world that then existed was deluged with water and perishedrCY (2
Peter 3:6, ESV).

Yes, the people perished. The planet remained. But Peter does not stop
there. He draws a contrast, not an identity.

rCLBut by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up
for firerCY (2 Peter 3:7, ESV).

This is already different from the flood. The flood did not involve the heavens. The flood did not dissolve anything. The flood judged the
inhabitants within creation. The coming judgment addresses creation itself.

Peter makes that explicit:

rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolvedrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).

Nothing like that happened in the flood. So you cannot argue, rCLIt worked this way before, so it must work this way again.rCY PeterrCOs whole point is that it will not.

That is why he concludes:

rCLBut according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earthrCY (2 Peter 3:13, ESV).

If the present earth simply continues forever with the wicked removed,
there is no reason to speak of a new earth at all.

Isaiah also blocks your reading.

rCLThe heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a
garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like mannerrCY (Isaiah 51:6, ESV).

Isaiah separates the heavens, the earth, and the people. The people die.
The heavens vanish. The earth wears out. If rCLearthrCY means rCLwicked people,rCY the sentence collapses. Isaiah does not allow that move.

Psalm 102 presses the same truth.

rCLThey will perishrCa you will change them like a roberCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).

Hebrews applies this directly to the Son:

rCLLike a garment they will be changedrCY (Hebrews 1:12, ESV).

A robe that is changed is not merely cleaned. It is replaced. Continuity
of purpose does not mean permanence of form.

So the correct biblical conclusion is this:

The flood proves that rCLperishrCY does not mean annihilation.
The flood does not prove the eternal permanence of the present earth.
Scripture explicitly teaches that the final judgment exceeds the flood
in scope.
The present heavens and earth do not merely get cleansed; they are
changed into something new.

Your argument assumes the future judgment works exactly like the flood.
Peter wrote an entire chapter to say it will not.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLYou, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish,
but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a
robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changedrCY
(Hebrews 1:10rCo12, ESV).

Peter confirms the present heavens and earth will be dissolved by fire,
and that we wait for new heavens and earth:

rCLBut by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are
stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and
destruction of the ungodly.rCY (2 Peter 3:7, ESV)

rCLSince all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of
people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because
of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the
heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his
promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which
righteousness dwells.rCY (2 Peter 3:11rCo13, ESV)

Notice, the new heavens and earth will contain righteousness. Thus it
refers to PEOPLE, not the physical heavens and earth.

That conclusion does not follow from the text. You are collapsing a distinction the passages carefully maintain.

Peter does **not** say the new heavens and earth *are* righteousness. He
says righteousness **dwells in them**.

rCLBut according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new
earth **in which** righteousness dwellsrCY (2 Peter 3:13, ESV).

Grammar matters. rCLIn whichrCY locates righteousness. It does not redefine the thing being described. People dwell **in** houses. Houses do not
*become* people. The same logic applies here.

Peter already identified what is being dissolved:

rCLThe heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for firerCY (2 Peter 3:7, ESV).
rCLThe heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies
will melt as they burnrCY (2 Peter 3:12, ESV).

Those are not people. People are judged *on* the earth. The earth itself undergoes dissolution. Peter distinguishes consistently between:

rCo the heavens and earth
rCo the ungodly judged
rCo the righteous who dwell afterward

You cannot suddenly redefine rCLheavens and earthrCY at the conclusion to
mean rCLpeoplerCY without contradicting the argument Peter just made.

Hebrews blocks that move even more clearly.

rCLYou, Lord, laid the foundation of the earthrCa they will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Hebrews 1:10rCo12, ESV).

The author contrasts:
rCo the Lord, who remains
rCo the created order, which changes

People are never described as garments God rolls up. Creation is.

Isaiah makes the same distinction you are erasing:

rCLThe heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a
garment, **and they who dwell in it** will die in like mannerrCY (Isaiah
51:6, ESV).

Three categories:
rCo heavens
rCo earth
rCo people who dwell in it

If rCLearthrCY already means rCLpeople,rCY IsaiahrCOs sentence collapses into incoherence.

Revelation seals it:

rCLThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

John does not say rCLthe wicked passed away.rCY He says the **first heaven
and first earth** passed away. Then he immediately shows people dwelling
in the new creation (Revelation 21:3rCo4). Again, location, not identity.

So the biblical pattern is consistent and unbroken:

rCo The present heavens and earth undergo dissolution and change.
rCo God brings forth new heavens and a new earth.
rCo Righteous people dwell in that renewed creation.

Righteousness inhabits the new creation. It does not redefine the words rCLheavensrCY and rCLearthrCY into rCLpeople.rCY That reinterpretation is imposed,
not derived.

You are not following PeterrCOs argument. You are replacing his nouns at
the conclusion to protect a prior commitment. Scripture does not permit
that move.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Revelation shows the fulfillment of this:

rCLThen I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was
found for them.rCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV)

Again, the word "them" implies PEOPLE.

That is simply a grammatical error, not an interpretation.

rCLFrom his presence **earth and sky fled away**, and **no place was found
for them**rCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).

The pronoun rCLthemrCY has a clear, immediate antecedent: **earth and sky**. English grammar does not allow you to jump over the nearest plural nouns
and substitute an unrelated group (rCLpeoplerCY) that has not been mentioned in the sentence.

If John meant people, he would have said people. He does so repeatedly
in the same context.

rCLAnd I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the thronerCY (Revelation 20:12, ESV).

Notice the order:

1. Earth and sky flee.
2. No place is found for them.
3. Then the dead appear before the throne.

Earth and sky are removed **before** the dead are judged. That alone
refutes your claim. People are still very much present after rCLthemrCY has already fled.

You also cannot claim symbolism here without destroying the passage.
John is careful and precise. When Revelation uses symbols, it either
marks them (rCLlike,rCY rCLasrCY) or explains them. This verse does neither. It
uses plain narrative language.

There is another decisive problem for your reading.

People do not flee GodrCOs presence successfully. Creation does.

Where can man flee from GodrCOs presence? Nowhere (Psalm 139:7rCo10). But creation *can* be removed to make way for judgment. That is exactly what
the text describes.

And this verse matches the rest of Scripture perfectly:

rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLThey will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Hebrews 1:11rCo12, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

You are not following grammar, context, or the flow of the chapter. You
are redefining a pronoun to avoid the force of the text.

rCLEarth and sky fled awayrCY means earth and sky fled away.
rCLNo place was found for themrCY means no place was found for earth and sky.

Scripture is not ambiguous here.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven
and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.rCY
(Revelation 21:1, ESV)

Well there goes the oceans, rivers, streams, and lakes. BUT IT DOESN'T
MEAN THEM. It means the sea of mankind.

That claim collapses immediately under the text itself.

John does not say rCLthe sea of mankind.rCY He says *rCLthe searCY*, and he says
it in the same sentence where he speaks of *heaven* and *earth* passing
away.

rCLThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, *and the sea was no more*rCY (Revelation
21:1, ESV).

You are doing the same thing again: redefining one noun in the sentence
while insisting the others remain literal. That is not interpretation.
That is selective redefinition.

If rCLheavenrCY and rCLearthrCY are literal in the sentence, rCLsearCY is literal.
If rCLsearCY suddenly becomes symbolic, you must prove it from the text.
John gives no such signal.

Now notice what John does next.

rCLAnd I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from GodrCY (Revelation 21:2, ESV).

People are introduced *after* the description of the new creation. Just
like Revelation 20, location first, inhabitants second. The pattern
remains consistent.

Your claim also contradicts how Revelation itself uses rCLsea.rCY

Earlier, John explicitly identifies a symbolic rCLsearCY when it is symbolic:

rCLThe waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples
and multitudes and nations and languagesrCY (Revelation 17:15, ESV).

That is how symbolism works in Revelation: it is explained. Revelation
never leaves you guessing. When the rCLsearCY represents peoples, the text tells you so.

Revelation 21:1 gives no explanation. Therefore it is not a symbol.

Worse, your interpretation creates absurdities elsewhere.

If rCLthe searCY always means mankind, then this becomes nonsense:

rCLAnd the sea gave up the dead who were in itrCY (Revelation 20:13, ESV).

Mankind giving up mankind is incoherent. The verse already lists:
rCo the sea
rCo Death
rCo Hades

All three give up the dead. They are locations or states, not populations.

There is also a theological reason John mentions the sea.

In Scripture, the sea often represents chaos, separation, and threat in
the created order (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 74:13rCo14; Isaiah 27:1). Saying
rCLthe sea was no morerCY does not require allegory. It declares the removal of everything unstable, hostile, and threatening in the old creation.
That still refers to creation, not people.

And finally, your move contradicts Isaiah, Peter, Hebrews, and
Revelation taken together:

rCo Heavens pass away
rCo Earth is changed
rCo Creation flees from GodrCOs presence
rCo A new creation replaces the old
rCo Righteous people dwell *in* it

At no point does Scripture redefine rCLheaven,rCY rCLearth,rCY or rCLsearCY into
rCLpeoplerCY in these passages. When people are meant, the text says people.

So no rCo this does not mean rCLthe sea of mankind.rCY

It means exactly what it says:
rCo the first heaven passed away
rCo the first earth passed away
rCo the sea was no more

And then, *people appear*, dwelling in the new creation God makes.

You are not reading Revelation on its own terms. You are forcing it to
say something it never says in order to preserve a system Scripture
itself dismantles.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

After the thousand year reign of Christ (Revelation 19-20:10), The
present heavens and earth will flee away, and be replaced by a new
heavens and earth for believers (Revelation 21).

Yes, it will be a cleansed earth (people), and a cleansed ruling
class. (heavens)

I know you like everything to be literal, but new heavens and earth
means a change of government. The ruling class will be Jesus and the
144,000.

What does a landlord do when he rents out an apartment and the people ransacked it? Burn down the apartment? No, he fixes it, then rents it
to better people. In a similar way, that what happens to the heavens
and the earth.

You are again replacing what the text says with what your system needs
it to say.

First, you assert rCLcleansed peoplerCY and a rCLcleansed ruling class,rCY but Revelation never defines rCLheavensrCY as a ruling class in this context.
That definition is imported. Revelation itself defines its symbols when
it uses them. Here, it does not.

John describes *events*, not political reform.

rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for themrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).

That is not cleansing. That is removal. Something cleansed does not flee
out of existence. Something judged does.

Then John says:

rCLThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

You keep saying rCLcleansed,rCY but John says rCLpassed away.rCY Those are not the same thing. Scripture knows how to speak of cleansing. It does not
do so here.

Second, your landlord analogy fails because God Himself rejects it.

Hebrews applies Psalm 102 directly to the Son:

rCLThey will perish, but you remainrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Hebrews 1:11rCo12, ESV).

A landlord does not roll up an apartment like a robe. God says He will
roll up the heavens and earth. That is not refurbishment language. That
is replacement language.

Third, Peter explicitly denies your rCLrepair onlyrCY model.

rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolvedrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).

Dissolved is not cleaned. Melted elements are not refurbished. You are
trying to downgrade PeterrCOs language to fit an analogy he never uses.

Peter then says:

rCLBut according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earthrCY (2 Peter 3:13, ESV).

Again, if this were merely a repaired system, rCLnewrCY is misleading at
best. Peter is not careless with words.

Fourth, your claim about government collapses under Revelation itself.

Revelation already describes ChristrCOs reign and the saints reigning with
Him during the thousand years (Revelation 20:4rCo6). If rCLnew heavens and earthrCY simply means a new government, then Revelation 21 adds nothing
new. But John clearly presents Revelation 21 as *after* the final
judgment, not as a restatement of millennial rule.

Chronology matters.

rCo Millennium: Christ reigns on the present earth
rCo Final judgment: earth and sky flee
rCo New creation: new heaven and new earth appear

You are collapsing stages Scripture keeps distinct.

Fifth, the 144,000 do not function as a ruling rCLheavensrCY class in Revelation 21.

Revelation 21 never mentions the 144,000 at all. It speaks of:
rCo God dwelling with man
rCo Death no more
rCo Creation fully renewed

If the ruling class were the meaning of rCLnew heavens,rCY this would be the place to say it. John does not.

Finally, your approach violates a basic rule of interpretation you
regularly appeal to elsewhere: Scripture interprets Scripture.

When Scripture uses political symbolism, it tells you.
When Scripture means people, it says people.
When Scripture means creation, it says creation.

Here it says:
rCo heaven
rCo earth
rCo sea

Then it says:
rCo people dwell there

You keep switching the nouns at the conclusion to avoid the force of the argument. That is not careful reading. That is system protection.

Your analogy may feel reasonable, but God did not give us analogies to override His words. He gave us words to correct our analogies.

The text does not say rCLa repaired system.rCY
The text does not say rCLa new government.rCY
The text does not say rCLcleansed people.rCY

It says:
rCo the first heaven passed away
rCo the first earth passed away
rCo God made new ones
rCo righteous people dwell in them

That is what Scripture says.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

New Testament revelation is what governs the understanding of the Old
Testament. This is why Watchtower heretics have to spend so much time in
the Old Testament. It makes it easier for them to promote deceit if they
don't have to account for New Testament Revelation.

Your opinion is light-years away from the true meanings.

Then it's your contention that we should ignore what the New Testament
says and interpret the Old Testament in a way that contradicts what the
New Testament clearly indicates? That's what you consistently practice
whether you're willing to admit it or not.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

For example, Watchtower heretics try to twist verse snippets here and
there in the Old Testament which talk about the present heavens and
earth abiding "forever" (olam). They try to make a total theology out of
their misrepresentation of these Old Testament verses. Yet here are
clear biblical uses of the Hebrew word olam (often translated rCLforeverrCY) >> where the context proves it refers to a limited or defined period of
time, not endless duration. Scripture itself defines the limits.

The Bible does say the earth will always be here.

Notice, everything he cites is from the OT. He denies that Watchtower
seeks to obscure New Testament revelation by trying to create whole
theologies out of Old Testament passages in a way that contradicts what
the New Testament shows, then consistently does exactly that.

Ps 104:5,

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed
for ever." (KJV)

Psalms later say this very earth will perish and be changed:

rCLThey will perish, but you will remainrCa like a garment you will change themrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).

Scripture does not contradict itself. rCLNot be moved foreverrCY means the earth remains stable and secure for the duration God appointed it to
serve its role, not that it is metaphysically eternal. Psalm 104
celebrates GodrCOs sustaining order, not final eschatology.

Also Ec 1:4,

"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."
(NIV)

idem. This necessitates nothing more than that the earth outlasts
generations of people. olam does NOT necessitate never-ending duration,
as was already shown.

Ps 78:69,

" He built his shrine like the heavens, like the earth which he
founded forever. " (NAB)

idem.

And Ps 119:90,

rCLThrough all generations your truth endures; fixed to stand firm like
the earth.rCL (NAB)

idem.

rCLI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pitrCY (Jonah 2:6,
ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
rCLForeverrCY describes his experience, not endless time.

rCLThen his master shall bring him to GodrCa and he shall be his
slave forever [olam]rCY (Exodus 21:6, ESV).

This lasted for the servantrCOs lifetime, not eternally.

rCLI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD
and dwell there forever [olam]rCY (1 Samuel 1:22, ESV).

rCLAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDrCY (1 Samuel 1:28,
ESV).

The text itself explains olam as rCLas long as he lives.rCY

rCLAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]rCY (Deuteronomy 15:17,
ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

rCLSo these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial
forever [olam]rCY (Joshua 4:7, ESV).

The stones existed as long as the memorial stood, not eternally.

rCLLift up your heads, O gatesrCa O ancient doors [olam]rCY (Psalm
24:7, ESV).

The doors are old, not eternal.

rCLHe looked and shook the nations; then the eternal [olam]
mountains were scatteredrCY (Habakkuk 3:6, ESV).

Mountains called rCLeternalrCY are still shaken and altered by God

rCLThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam]rCa
until the Spirit is poured upon usrCY (Isaiah 32:14rCo15, ESV).

Olam explicitly ends when God acts.

rCLMaking their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever
[olam]rCY (Jeremiah 18:16, ESV).

IsraelrCOs desolation did not last eternally.

Key biblical truth:

Olam does not mean rCLendless by definition.rCY It means duration viewed
from the standpoint of the subjectrCooften long, undefined, or complete
within GodrCOs purpose. Context determines its length. Scripture itself repeatedly places boundaries on it.

Therefore:

When passages say the earth rCLremains foreverrCY or the righteous dwell in
the land rCLforever,rCY the word itself does not demand eternal preservation
of the present creation.

It allows for continuity through judgment,
transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7rCo13, ESV).

Make no mistake. The present heavens and earth WILL be destroyed by
fire, folded up like a garment, and flee. They will be replaced with a
new heavens and earth, where God will dwell with all believers, not just 144,000 Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pitrCY (Jonah 2:6,
ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
rCLForeverrCY describes his experience, not endless time.

Yes, it probably seemed like forever being in that , stone grinding,
acid rich place for 3 days.

Then stop pretending like olam has to mean never ending duration.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLThen his master shall bring him to GodrCa and he shall be his
slave forever [olam]rCY (Exodus 21:6, ESV).

Yes, we all have 'forevers' waiting for us at our end.

This lasted for the servantrCOs lifetime, not eternally.

This confirms, as do many other examples, that olam does NOT necessitate
a never ending period of time.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD
and dwell there forever [olam]rCY (1 Samuel 1:22, ESV).

rCLAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDrCY (1 Samuel 1:28,
ESV).

The text itself explains olam as rCLas long as he lives.rCY

rCLAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]rCY (Deuteronomy 15:17,
ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

Don't you know that "forever" can also mean eternally.

-- Living Bible
Revelation 1:6 He has gathered us into his Kingdom and made us
priests of God his Father. Give to him everlasting glory! He rules
forever! Amen!

-- William's NewTestament
Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth,
underneath the earth, and on the sea, and all that they contain, say: "Blessing, honor, glory, and power be to Him who is seated on the
throne and to the Lamb forever."

-- New King James
1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.'' Now this is
the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Yes, depending upon the context, we can see which way to go.

Which is why you had to switch topics from the original heavens and
earth to God Himself. God is eternal, so when the context points to God
it means never-ending. This does not contradict any other Bible
revelation about God to understand God never began and never ends.

When the subject is the heavens and earth of the original creation
however, both Old and New Testament show it will be taken off and
replaced like a robe (Psalm 102:25rCo26; Hebrews 1:10rCo12), pass away (Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:10), be dissolved by fire (2 Peter 3:10rCo12),
flee away to be found no more (Revelation 20:11), and be replaced by a
new heavens and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLSo these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial
forever [olam]rCY (Joshua 4:7, ESV).

In this case, it would be up to the time that God and Jesus abandoned
the people of Israel back then: Mt 23:37,38,

37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and
stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but
you were not willing!
38. "See! Your house is left to you desolate;

You are proving the point rather than refuting it.

Joshua 4:7 does not say the stones last until God rCLabandons Israel.rCY
That idea is imported from Matthew 23 and does not belong in Joshua at all.

rCLSo these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial forever [olam]rCY (Joshua 4:7, ESV).

The text itself defines the duration. The memorial lasts **as long as it functions as a memorial**. Stones do not become eternal objects. No one
claims they do. rCLForeverrCY describes the covenantal purpose, not endless duration.

And Matthew 23 does not rescue your argument.

rCLSee! Your house is left to you desolaterCY (Matthew 23:38, ESV).

Jesus is pronouncing judgment on the temple generation, not declaring
that God has abandoned Israel as a people forever. Paul explicitly
denies that reading:

rCLHas God rejected his people? By no means!rCY (Romans 11:1, ESV).

So even your attempted limiter fails biblically. You are mixing
covenants, contexts, and centuries to force a meaning the text never
supplies.

Now Psalm 24:7.

rCLLift up your heads, O gatesrCa O ancient doors [olam]rCY (Psalm 24:7, ESV).

YesrCoexactly. The doors are old, not eternal. And that is precisely how
olam functions. It can mean ancient, enduring, or lasting according to appointed purpose. It does **not** mean eternal by default.

That is the entire argument you keep trying to evade.

No one is denying that rCLforeverrCY can mean eternal when the subject
demands itrCoGod, His reign, His word, His glory. But when the subject is created objects, institutions, offices, or memorials, Scripture itself repeatedly limits the term by context.

Your responses here concede the rule every time:

rCo Stones: lasting for their appointed memorial role
rCo Doors: ancient, not eternal
rCo Servitude: lifelong, not endless
rCo SamuelrCOs service: rCLas long as he lives,rCY not eternity

And yet you want to suspend that rule only when the word rCLearthrCY
appears, even though Scripture explicitly says the earth will perish,
flee away, be dissolved, and be replaced.

That inconsistency is the issue.

You cannot argue:
rCLContext determines olamrCY
and then refuse to let **eschatological context** determine it when
Isaiah, Psalms, Hebrews, Peter, and Revelation all speak plainly about
the end of the present heavens and earth.

Your own examples confirm the principle:
olam means **as long as God appoints it to last**.

And Scripture tells usrCoclearly, repeatedly, and explicitlyrCohow long the present heavens and earth are appointed to last.

Not forever in their present form.

The stones existed as long as the memorial stood, not eternally.

rCLLift up your heads, O gatesrCa O ancient doors [olam]rCY (Psalm
24:7, ESV).

The doors are old, not eternal.

See above

See above.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLHe looked and shook the nations; then the eternal [olam]
mountains were scatteredrCY (Habakkuk 3:6, ESV).

Mountains called rCLeternalrCY are still shaken and altered by God.

If that is God's will.

ExactlyrCoand that concession ends the argument.

If the rCLeternal [olam] mountainsrCY can be shaken, scattered, and altered **when God wills**, then olam cannot mean absolute, unchangeable
eternity. It means enduring stability **for as long as God appoints**,
not permanence beyond His sovereign purpose.

rCLHe looked and shook the nations; then the eternal [olam] mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank lowrCY (Habakkuk 3:6, ESV).

The text itself proves the point. MountainsrCocalled olamrCodo not outlast GodrCOs action. They endure until God acts upon them. The word describes perceived permanence from a human standpoint, not metaphysical eternity.

And this is not an isolated case. Scripture repeatedly uses olam this way:

rCo Mountains called rCLeverlasting,rCY yet shaken (Habakkuk 3:6).
rCo Doors called olam, meaning ancient (Psalm 24:7).
rCo Stones called olam, meaning enduring as a memorial (Joshua 4:7).
rCo Servitude called olam, defined as lifelong (Deuteronomy 15:17).

So when you say, rCLIf that is GodrCOs will,rCY you are conceding the decisive point:

God defines the limits of olam.

And Scripture tells us plainly that it **is** GodrCOs will to act on the present heavens and earth:

rCLThey will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).
rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled awayrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

So yesrCo*if that is GodrCOs will*.
And Scripture explicitly says that it is.

The appeal to olam does not protect the present creation from change.
Habakkuk itself proves that even what appears rCLeternalrCY yields instantly to the will of God.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

On 1/28/2026 12:07 PM, James wrote:

rCLThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam]rCa
until the Spirit is poured upon usrCY (Isaiah 32:14rCo15, ESV).

Olam explicitly ends when God acts.

That is obvious. It says "until".

Exactly. And that is the nail in the coffin for the argument you were
trying to defend earlier.

Isaiah does not just *allow* olam to end. It *explicitly defines its endpoint*.

rCLThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam] rCa *until*
the Spirit is poured upon us from on highrCY (Isaiah 32:14rCo15, ESV).

The text itself tells you:
rCo olam is operative
rCo olam has a terminus
rCo the terminus comes when God acts

That means olam does *not* mean rCLendless by default.rCY It means rCLenduring for the full span God appoints,rCY whether that span is short, long,
lifelong, covenantal, generational, orrCowhen the subject requires itrCoeternal.

And now step back and look at the cumulative force of the evidence you yourself have acknowledged:

rCo SamuelrCOs service called olam, defined as rCLas long as he livesrCY (1 Samuel 1:22, 28).
rCo Lifelong servitude called olam (Deuteronomy 15:17).
rCo Memorial stones called olam, lasting as long as the memorial stands (Joshua 4:7).
rCo Ancient doors called olam (Psalm 24:7).
rCo Mountains called olam, yet scattered when God acts (Habakkuk 3:6).
rCo Devastation called olam, explicitly ending rCLuntilrCY God pours out His Spirit (Isaiah 32:14rCo15).

So when you now say, rCLThat is obvious. It says rCyuntil,rCOrCY you have conceded the governing rule:

*Olam lasts until God says otherwise.*

And that brings us right back to the heavens and the earth.

Scripture does not merely imply an endpoint. It *states it outright*:

rCLThey will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).
rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled awayrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

So yesrCoyour observation is correct.

And once that is admitted, appeals to rCLthe earth remains foreverrCY as
proof of absolute permanence collapse completely. Scripture itself
defines olam. Scripture itself defines its limits. Scripture itself
tells us when God acts.

And when God acts at the end, the present heavens and earth do not
merely continue.

They end.
They are changed.
They are replaced.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLMaking their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever
[olam]rCY (Jeremiah 18:16, ESV).

IsraelrCOs desolation did not last eternally.

See above

See previous post:

Exactly. And that is the nail in the coffin for the argument you were
trying to defend earlier.

Isaiah does not just allow olam to end. It *explicitly defines its
endpoint*.

rCLThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam] rCa until the Spirit is poured upon us from on highrCY (Isaiah 32:14rCo15, ESV).

The text itself tells you:
rCo olam is operative
rCo olam has a terminus
rCo the terminus comes when God acts

That means olam does not mean rCLendless by default.rCY It means rCLenduring for the full span God appoints,rCY whether that span is short, long,
lifelong, covenantal, generational, orrCowhen the subject requires itrCoeternal.

And now step back and look at the cumulative force of the evidence you yourself have acknowledged:

rCo SamuelrCOs service called olam, defined as rCLas long as he livesrCY (1 Samuel 1:22, 28).
rCo Lifelong servitude called olam (Deuteronomy 15:17).
rCo Memorial stones called olam, lasting as long as the memorial stands (Joshua 4:7).
rCo Ancient doors called olam (Psalm 24:7).
rCo Mountains called olam, yet scattered when God acts (Habakkuk 3:6).
rCo Devastation called olam, explicitly ending rCLuntilrCY God pours out His Spirit (Isaiah 32:14rCo15).

So when you now say, rCLThat is obvious. It says rCyuntil,rCOrCY you have conceded the governing rule:

*Olam lasts until God says otherwise.*

And that brings us right back to the heavens and the earth.

Scripture does not merely imply an endpoint. It states it outright:

rCLThey will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).
rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled awayrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

So yesrCoyour observation is correct.

And once that is admitted, appeals to rCLthe earth remains foreverrCY as
proof of absolute permanence collapse completely. Scripture itself
defines olam. Scripture itself defines its limits. Scripture itself
tells us when God acts.

And when God acts at the end, the present heavens and earth do not
merely continue.

They end.
They are changed.
They are replaced.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Key biblical truth:

Olam does not mean rCLendless by definition.rCY It means duration viewed >>from the standpoint of the subjectrCooften long, undefined, or complete
within GodrCOs purpose. Context determines its length. Scripture itself
repeatedly places boundaries on it.

Therefore:

When passages say the earth rCLremains foreverrCY or the righteous dwell in >> the land rCLforever,rCY the word itself does not demand eternal preservation >> of the present creation.

Negatrons, see above where forever means forever. Such as:

-- Living Bible
Psalms 104:5 You bound the world together so that it would never fall
apart.

-- Revised Standard
Psalms 104:5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it
should never be shaken.

-- Darby's Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation
cometh, but the earth standeth for ever.

-- Webster's Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another]
generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

"For ever". They split the word. It now means eternally.
I see what you are doing, since the word can have more than one
meaning, you choose the meaning that is not eternally, so as to
contradict the Bible's claim of an eternal earth.

This should help to explain that the earth really will be here
eternally, forever, for ever.

-- New King James
Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is
God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did
not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord,
and there is no other.

Are you saying God lied here?

You are not defending Scripture here. You are accusing Scripture of contradiction and then trying to rescue it by redefining other passages.
The Bible does not need that rescue.

LetrCOs deal with your claims carefully and in order.

First, splitting rCLfor everrCY does not change the meaning.

You keep appealing to English formatting (rCLfor everrCY vs rCLforeverrCY) as if
that settles the issue. It does not. English translators are rendering
the same Hebrew word, olam. Spacing in English proves nothing about
duration. The meaning comes from context, not typography.

Psalm 104:5 does not say the earth is metaphysically eternal.

rCLYou set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be movedrCY (Psalm 104:5, ESV).

This is stability language, not eschatology. The same Psalms say that
this very earth will perish and be changed:

rCLThey will perish, but you will remainrCa like a garment you will change themrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).

If you insist Psalm 104:5 means rCLeternally unchangeable,rCY then Psalm 102 becomes a contradiction. Scripture does not contradict itself. Your
reading does.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 does not teach eternal earth either.

rCLOne generation passes away, and another generation comes, but the earth remains foreverrCY (Ecclesiastes 1:4).

idem. Neither the word olam nor this context requires anything more than
that the earth remains longer than from one human generations to another (which it already has).

Now Isaiah 45:18 rCo this is the heart of your charge.

rCLWho formed the earth and made itrCa who did not create it empty, who
formed it to be inhabitedrCY (Isaiah 45:18, ESV).

This verse says *why* God created the earth, not *how long* its present
form must last. It says nothing about eternity. It says nothing about
never changing. It says God did not create the earth purposelessly. He
created it to be inhabited.

And Scripture explicitly teaches that God will still fulfill that
purpose rCo in the new creation.

rCLBehold, I create new heavens and a new earthrCY (Isaiah 65:17, ESV).
rCLAs the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before
merCY (Isaiah 66:22, ESV).
rCLAccording to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth
in which righteousness dwellsrCY (2 Peter 3:13, ESV).

God does not lie. He fulfills His purpose by bringing creation to its
intended goal, not by freezing the first version forever.

You are assuming that rCLformed to be inhabitedrCY means rCLmust never be changed.rCY Scripture never says that. In fact, Scripture explicitly says
the opposite.

rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled awayrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

If your reading of Psalm 104, Ecclesiastes 1, or Isaiah 45 were correct,
these verses could not exist. But they do. And they are plain.

Thus, you are trying to confuse purpose with permanence.

God created the earth to be inhabited.
God sustains it securely for its appointed role.
God defines how long that role lasts.
God then changes it and brings forth a new creation that fulfills His
purpose perfectly and permanently.

That is not contradiction. That is consummation.

And the real issue here is not olam. You have already conceded rCo
repeatedly rCo that olam ends when God acts. You admitted it in Isaiah 32.
You admitted it in Habakkuk. You admitted it in Joshua. You admitted it
in Samuel.

You only deny it when the word rCLearthrCY appears.

That inconsistency does not come from Scripture. It comes from a system
you are trying to protect.

Scripture is clear, unified, and consistent:

The present heavens and earth endure for the full span God appoints.
When God acts at the end, they are changed.
God brings a new heavens and a new earth.
And *that* creation truly remains forever.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================
On "olam"

It allows for continuity through judgment,
transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7rCo13, ESV).

See above.

See <d338c781-6649-4a09-bfef-9f8d250dfa13@christrose.news>

You try to interpret a few verses in the Old Testament in a way that
flatly contradicts others in the New Testament and Old Testament. Trying
to pit Scripture against Scripture proves your interpretations are lies.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Make no mistake. The present heavens and earth WILL be destroyed by
fire, folded up like a garment, and flee. They will be replaced with a
new heavens and earth, where God will dwell with all believers, not just
144,000 Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation.

Notice, he's no longer arguing for an eternal earth, since so many
passages in the Old and New Testament show that "olam" does NOT
necessitate never ending duration, AND because many passages show the
present heavens and earth will be destroyed, dissolved by fire, flee
away, and be replaced like a robe with a new heavens and earth. His interpretation requires Scripture to contradict Scripture, which proves
it is a lie. The present heavens and earth are not eternal and will be dissolved by fire and replaced with a new heavens and earth.

Negatrons, negatrons. You are making the Bible again fit to your
doctrines.

The liar accuses of exactly what his view does all day long every day of
the week. You do almost nothing but promote Bible-contradicting lies
which requires people to believe that Scripture contradicts Scripture as
you mostly ignore New Testament revelation when it says things you don't
want to hear.

And Paul talked about SPIRITUAL Jews on the inside. Thus the 144,000
can be make up of people all over the world, who became Christians.
Rom 2:28,29,

" 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that
circumcision which is outward in the flesh;
29. but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not
from men but from God." (NKJV)

Romans 2:28rCo29 does not redefine Gentile believers as Jews. Paul is not changing ethnic categories. He is exposing hypocrisy and showing what
true covenant faith looks like within Israel.

rCLFor no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardlyrCarCY (Romans 2:28rCo29, NKJV).

PaulrCOs argument in Romans 1rCo3 is about guilt before God, not prophetic identity. His conclusion is not rCLGentiles become Jews,rCY but:

rCLAll, both Jews and Greeks, are under sinrCY (Romans 3:9, ESV).

If Romans 2 turned Christians worldwide into Jews, Paul would never say
this later:

rCLHas God rejected his people? By no means!rCY (Romans 11:1, ESV).
rCLThe gifts and the calling of God are irrevocablerCY (Romans 11:29, ESV).

Paul explicitly maintains a distinction between Israel and the nations
after Romans 2. That alone forbids your reading.

Now look at Revelation 7, because this is where your argument collapses.

rCLAnd I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe
of the sons of IsraelrCY (Revelation 7:4, ESV).

John does not say:
rCo spiritual Israel
rCo inward Jews
rCo believers worldwide

He names tribes. Twelve of them. One by one (Revelation 7:5rCo8).

Then John immediately introduces a second group:

rCLAfter this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languagesrCY (Revelation 7:9, ESV).

Two groups. Different descriptions. Different identifiers.

If the 144,000 are just rCLChristians everywhere,rCY then Revelation 7
becomes incoherent:

rCo Why number one group precisely and say the other cannot be numbered?
rCo Why list tribes at all?
rCo Why say rCLafter thisrCY if it is the same group?

You are not letting Revelation define its own terms. You are importing
Romans 2 and flattening distinctions the text itself insists on.

And the charge of rCLmaking the Bible fit doctrinesrCY does not land where
you think it does.

Your position requires:
rCo heavens = ruling class
rCo earth = people
rCo sea = mankind
rCo Israel = symbolic when inconvenient
rCo numbers = literal sometimes, symbolic other times

That is not exegesis. That is systematic redefinition.

By contrast, the position you are attacking simply reads the nouns as
nouns and lets Scripture interpret Scripture:

rCo Heavens mean heavens (Psalm 102:25rCo26; Hebrews 1:10rCo12)
rCo Earth means earth (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11)
rCo Israel means Israel (Revelation 7:4rCo8)
rCo Nations mean nations (Revelation 7:9)

No passage is being forced to cancel another.

And none of this changes the central issue you keep trying to deflect from:

Scripture repeatedly and explicitly teaches that the present heavens and
earth end.

rCLThey will perishrCa like a garment they will be changedrCY (Psalm 102:26, ESV).
rCLThe heavens will pass away with a roarrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
rCLFrom his presence earth and sky fled awayrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
rCLThe first heaven and the first earth passed awayrCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

God then brings a new creation where all the redeemed dwell with Him.

rCLBehold, the dwelling place of God is with manrCY (Revelation 21:3, ESV).

Not just 144,000.
Not a ruling class.
All the redeemed.

Romans 2 does not overturn Revelation 7.
Romans 11 explicitly prevents that move.
And Revelation itself draws the lines you are trying to erase.

This is not doctrine-shaping.
It is letting the text say what it says.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 14:18:02 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: >========================================

On Mon, 26 Jan 2026 13:56:29 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

Watchtower promotes almost nothing but pure, Bible-contradicting lies:
Isaiah taught the old heavens and earth would perish, and that there
would be a new heavens and earth:

You still don't get it, do you. The heavens are those high up in power
of the ruling class. Only God and Jesus as king, and the 144,000, will
be the 'new' heavens. The new earth is the earth of only righteous
ones. (Mt 5:5)

Why would God destroy something He created long ago, and said it was
good? Humans have only contaminated a tiny, tiny fraction of the
cosmos, like a grain of sand on a beach.

The Bible uses metaphors all the time. For example, Peter tells us
that the WORLD was DESTROYED by the flood. Yet the earth is still
here. (2 Pet 3:5,6) He meant the world of mankind not on the ark.

He is not interpreting Scripture. He is imposing a system on it and then >redefining words until the text submits. The Bible itself refutes every >claim he makes here.

First, Isaiah does not redefine oheavenso as a ruling class.

Isaiah speaks of the created heavens and the created earth as a pair,
the same pair named in Genesis 1:1. He does not introduce a political >metaphor. He contrasts what God made in the beginning with what God will >make at the end.

Gen 1:1 is literal. He created the heavens (cosmos) and the earth.

oFor behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things >shall not be remembered or come into mindo (Isaiah 65:17, ESV).

The Bible uses metaphors throughout, esp the book of Revelation, the
"beasts" of Daniel, the "new earth" (removal of the wicked), etc.

Creation language governs the sentence. God says, oI create.o He does
not say, oI reorganize human government.o He speaks of cosmic renewal,
not a ????a of elites.

Take for example a football field. (100 yards) We have contaminated it
on the goal line. Then a construction company comes in and destroys
all 100 yards of it because humans messed up the goal line. No, just
patch up the goal line and continue to use the rest of the field.

If God created a vast universe, with trillions of stars in a galaxy,
and a trillion galaxies, it would take a moron god to destroy the
whole thing just because humans messed up a small fraction of it.

Isaiah reinforces this in the same context:

oFor as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain
before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remaino >(Isaiah 66:22, ESV).

Another bad translation. They took out the Tetragrammaton and stuck in
LORD. Here is a better translation:

- American Standard
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will
make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and
your name remain.

The permanence of GodAs work anchors the promise. Human governments
never oremain.o They rise and fall. Creation does.

Second, Jesus does not redefine oeartho in Matthew 5:5.

oThe meek shall inherit the eartho (Matthew 5:5, ESV).

Jesus quotes Psalm 37, where the oeartho repeatedly refers to the land
and the created order in contrast to the wicked who are cut off. It
never means oa class of people.o It means the place God gives, not a
group God selects.

You would have to be blind to not see that Jesus quotes the OT, but
changes the word "land" to "earth":

-- Revised Standard
Psalms 37:11a But the meek shall possess the land,

-- King James
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Nothing in the text hints that oeartho suddenly becomes oa righteous >society.o That meaning must be imported.

True, it doesn't hint that, but rather demands that. The "meek" ones
are not serial killers etc. God would never give the earth to the
wicked. But they are the righteous ones.

Third, God destroying creation does not contradict His calling it ogood.o

You buy a new suit. Exactly .1% of it is design flaw. So you burn the
whole suit, and go buy another. That in essence is what you are saying
above.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that God judges His own works when they
become corrupted by sin.

He destroyed the world in the flood.
He destroyed Sodom.
He destroyed the temple He Himself commanded to be built.

Make that God demanded that.

Calling something ogoodo does not exempt it from judgment or renewal.

I never said it did.

God does not lose control of His creation when He judges it. He purifies it.

Peter explicitly teaches this.

oBy the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for >fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the
ungodlyo (2 Peter 3:7, ESV).

Notice the wicked will be destroyed, not continuing to live somewhere
else. the fire represents TOTAL destruction.

Peter does not speak of governments. He speaks of othe heavens and earth >that now exist.o He contrasts them with what comes next:

oBut according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new
earth in which righteousness dwellso (2 Peter 3:13, ESV).

Yes, the new earth represents PEOPLE who are righteous., not a new
planet.

Peter connects Isaiah directly to final renewal. The text interprets itself.

Fourth, the flood analogy destroys his metaphor argument.

Peter does not say the flood was only symbolic. He says the world that
then existed owas deluged with water and perishedo (2 Peter 3:6, ESV).

I never said the flood was symbolic. It was literal.

The planet remained, but the world order did not. That is precisely
PeterAs point: judgment can be catastrophic and real without meaning >annihilation of matter. Likewise, future fire judgment does not imply
mere political change. It implies real, divine intervention affecting >creation itself.

I never said it did. The fire represents total destruction.

If Peter meant ohuman society only,o his argument collapses. His warning >depends on continuity between past physical judgment and future physical >judgment.

You over analyzing and end up with a contradicting mess.

Fifth, Revelation seals the issue.

oThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed awayo (Revelation 21:1, ESV).

Yes, the high ruling authorities and the wicked people will pass away.
Thank God.

John does not say oa new ruling class.o He says the first heaven and
earth passed away. He uses the same language Isaiah and Peter use.
Scripture speaks with one voice.

Yes, and it all means the same thing, as I described above.

Finally, the 144,000 claim does not come from Isaiah, Jesus, or Peter.

Revelation identifies the 144,000 as sealed from the tribes of Israel >(Revelation 7:4u8).

Paul says Christians are "spiritual" Israelites.

Rev. 7:4-8: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred
and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of
Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali
. . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun .
. . Joseph . . . Benjamin."

These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a
tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the
list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection
with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. (See
Numbers 1:4-16.)

It never calls them othe heavens.o It never limits
heaven to them. That system must be forced onto the text by denying
plain statements elsewhere that all believers inherit the kingdom with >Christ (Romans 8:17; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Yes, some things require reasoning with the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2,3)

*//*>

Scripture uses metaphors, yes. But metaphors communicate truth
consistent with their imagery, not the opposite. When the Bible speaks
of new creation, it means new creation. When it speaks of judgment, it
means judgment. When it explains symbolism, it explains it.

What he is doing is not exegesis. It is replacement theology `1built on >redefining words until nothing means what God said.

And Scripture will not bend to that.

Your literalness leads you up the wrong path.

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/28/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 08:19:26 -0500
<9f9mnkpn2mvqbhvsmf51g0ft2ara8kqq9v@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Another bad translation

Man. Don't even try to talk to me about bad translations as long as you endorse the eisegetical abomination called NWS:
https://christrose.news/nwt

So sick of you selectively pretending like you're concerned about
textual accuracy, when you embrace a mistranslation that changes to
promote it's own theology whenever it realizes the Bible refutes its lies.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 08:35:58 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 08:19:26 -0500
<9f9mnkpn2mvqbhvsmf51g0ft2ara8kqq9v@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: >========================================

Another bad translation

Man. Don't even try to talk to me about bad translations as long as you >endorse the eisegetical abomination called NWS:

What the heck is a NWS? Now you are making me look up words:
(eisegetical )

Wow, that describes you to a T. (and you think me) That's a push off.

https://christrose.news/nwt

So sick of you selectively pretending like you're concerned about
textual accuracy, when you embrace a mistranslation that changes to
promote it's own theology whenever it realizes the Bible refutes its lies.

And your opinion is full of holes. Speaking of holes, your
translations have removed the Tetragrammaton around 6000 times from
the OT, and painted in "Lord". You are letting those translators be
your censor.

I always want to know what the Bible says without someone censoring it
for me. But if you like to be taken advantage of, be my guest.

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/29/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 14:51:17 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: >========================================

oI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pito (Jonah 2:6,
ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
oForevero describes his experience, not endless time.

Yes, it probably seemed like forever being in that , stone grinding,
acid rich place for 3 days.

Then stop pretending like olam has to mean never ending duration.

And you need to stop saying it has an ending. IT ACTUALLY MEANS BOTH.
Just check the context.

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/29/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me
--
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========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:28:28 -0500
<ts4onktdqvp6a90j1q6cigti5rarqp7dgo@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 08:35:58 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 08:19:26 -0500
<9f9mnkpn2mvqbhvsmf51g0ft2ara8kqq9v@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:
========================================

Another bad translation

Man. Don't even try to talk to me about bad translations as long as you
endorse the eisegetical abomination called NWS:

What the heck is a NWS? Now you are making me look up words:
(eisegetical )

Wow, that describes you to a T. (and you think me) That's a push off.

https://christrose.news/nwt

So sick of you selectively pretending like you're concerned about
textual accuracy, when you embrace a mistranslation that changes to
promote it's own theology whenever it realizes the Bible refutes its lies.

And your opinion is full of holes. Speaking of holes, your
translations have removed the Tetragrammaton around 6000 times from
the OT, and painted in "Lord". You are letting those translators be
your censor.

Idem.

rCo YHWH is not "Jehovah". This means that NO, the NWT doesn't get
those 6000 references right. You've been shown this many times.
You are such a blatant, two-faced, double-standard hypocrite.

rCo Meanwhile your heretical abomination bible (NWT) adds words to
deny Christ is God. Whenever the Bible does not support their
heresy, they simply add words that weren't there. And no, we're
not talking about words which if added do not substantially
change any important doctrine, such as is common in making it
flow well in English. The NWT adds words not to make it flow
more smoothly, but to make it conform to their predetermined
Bible contradicting lies.

I always want to know what the Bible says without someone censoring it
for me. But if you like to be taken advantage of, be my guest.

Idem. See above stupid, two-faced, double-standard hypocrite.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 15:00:36 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: >========================================

oI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD
and dwell there forever [olam]o (1 Samuel 1:22,

ESV).

Bad translation again. Here is a better one:

-- American Standard
1 Samuel 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband,
I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him,
that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever.

oAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDo (1 Samuel 1:28,
ESV:)

Bad translation. Notice:

1 Samuel 1:28 therefore also I have granted him to Jehovah; as long
as he liveth he is granted to Jehovah. And he worshipped Jehovah
there.

The text itself explains olam as oas long as he lives.o

oAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]o (Deuteronomy 15:17,
ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

Don't you know that "forever" can also mean eternally.

-- Living Bible
Revelation 1:6 He has gathered us into his Kingdom and made us
priests of God his Father. Give to him everlasting glory! He rules
forever! Amen!

-- William's NewTestament
Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth,
underneath the earth, and on the sea, and all that they contain, say:
"Blessing, honor, glory, and power be to Him who is seated on the
throne and to the Lamb forever."

-- New King James
1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.'' Now this is
the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Yes, depending upon the context, we can see which way to go.

Which is why you had to switch topics from the original heavens and
earth to God Himself.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

God is eternal, so when the context points to God
it means never-ending. This does not contradict any other Bible
revelation about God to understand God never began and never ends.

Yes, that is what the Psalmist wrote:

-- New King James
Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting,
You are God.

When the subject is the heavens and earth of the original creation

It doesn't say of the original creation. It means a sweeping change of leadership and the inhabitants of the earth.

however, both Old and New Testament show it will be taken off and
replaced like a robe (Psalm 102:25u26; Hebrews 1:10u12), pass away

Yes, all new leaders and tenants of the earth.

(Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:10), be dissolved by fire (2 Peter 3:10u12),

The fire means total and absolute destruction,

flee away to be found no more (Revelation 20:11)

Yes, God will then end those fires for good.

, and be replaced by a

new heavens and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

Many are looking forward to that new Heavenly government, and an earth
in total peace.

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/29/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me
--
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========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:32:36 -0500
<br5onk5ffno2qt74bc5n4v4npbb2ul8oqj@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 14:51:17 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:
========================================

rCLI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pitrCY (Jonah 2:6, >>>> ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
rCLForeverrCY describes his experience, not endless time.

Yes, it probably seemed like forever being in that , stone grinding,
acid rich place for 3 days.

Then stop pretending like olam has to mean never ending duration.

And you need to stop saying it has an ending.

No, I don't, liar. You've already seen and admitted olam does not
necessitate a never ending period of time. Further, your proposed interpretation about how it relates to planet earth flatly contradict
what the context of the New Testament teaches.

IT ACTUALLY MEANS BOTH.
Just check the context.

Take your own advice, stupid hypocrite. You're the heretic who ignores
the context of the NEW TESTAMENT when it doesn't suit the lies you try
to impose on the Old Testament. My view shows the harmony of the Old and
New Testament statements about the duration of the earth. Yours
contradicts both what the Old and New Testament clearly teaches, which
is that the earth will not last eternally, but will be folded up,
changed like a robe, dissolved by fire, and replace with a New Heavens
and earth.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

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On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 15:17:31 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: >========================================
On "olam"

It allows for continuity through judgment,
transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25u26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7u13, ESV).

See above.

See <d338c781-6649-4a09-bfef-9f8d250dfa13@christrose.news>

You try to interpret a few verses in the Old Testament in a way that
flatly contradicts others in the New Testament and Old Testament. Trying
to pit Scripture against Scripture proves your interpretations are lies.

--
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========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:44:46 -0500
<k26onk9or5649791hk2stcsu92q2c97iui@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Bad translation again

That's the NWT, you stupid, two-faced hypocrite! Your Bible adds words
that were not there, and which are not needed to make it flow smoothly
in English. They realized the Bible refuted their satanic lies in
denying Jesus is God, so they changed what the Bible says. This is why
they have to repeatedly add "other" in Colossians 1, because it directly states Jesus is God and you know it. There'd be no reason to add "other"
to that passage, unless you were determined to deny He is God, AND KNOW
the Bible proves that as it stands!

Your translation is the heretical abomination here. Yet you spend all
day finger-wagging over trivial matters in other translations, while swallowing the camel of intentional heresy in your NWT mistranslation. https://christrose.news/nwt
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
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========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:44:46 -0500
<k26onk9or5649791hk2stcsu92q2c97iui@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:
========================================

rCLI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD >>>> and dwell there forever [olam]rCY (1 Samuel 1:22,

ESV).

Bad translation again. Here is a better one:

-- American Standard
1 Samuel 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband,
I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him,
that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever.

Your feigned "improvement" demonstrates nothing. Olam ("for ever") did
not mean without end, but for the duration of his limited life. Instead
of just admitting when your view is exposed as wrong, you have to try
and change the subject to pretend like you're making a correction to
something that wasn't in error to begin with. You are such a complete, arrogant, hypocrite-tool of Satan.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:44:46 -0500
<k26onk9or5649791hk2stcsu92q2c97iui@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

rCLAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDrCY (1 Samuel 1:28, >>>> ESV:)

Bad translation. Notice:

1 Samuel 1:28 therefore also I have granted him to Jehovah; as long
as he liveth he is granted to Jehovah. And he worshipped Jehovah
there.

Your feigned "improvement" demonstrates nothing. Olam ("for ever") did
not mean without end, but for "as long as he lives". Instead of just
admitting when your view is exposed as wrong, you have to try and change
the subject to pretend like you're making a correction to something that wasn't in error to begin with. You are such a complete, arrogant, hypocrite-tool of Satan.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:44:46 -0500
<k26onk9or5649791hk2stcsu92q2c97iui@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

Since below, selective memory heretic James pretends like he doesn't
know what I'm talking about, note the subject here:

The text itself explains olam as rCLas long as he lives.rCY

rCLAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]rCY (Deuteronomy 15:17, >>>> ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

Here we have an example which shows that with regard to creatures and creation, "olam" does not necessitate a never ending period of time.
"Forever" (olam) means for as long as he lives, not for a never ending
period of time.

Don't you know that "forever" can also mean eternally.

Now James is changing the subject. Instead of just admitting olam does
not indicate a never-ending period of time with regard to the creature
and creation (he didn't like what those passages showed, evidently), he
now tries to change the focus to how the word describes the attributes
of God Himself.

-- Living Bible
Revelation 1:6 He has gathered us into his Kingdom and made us
priests of God his Father. Give to him everlasting glory! He rules
forever! Amen!

-- William's NewTestament
Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth,
underneath the earth, and on the sea, and all that they contain, say:
"Blessing, honor, glory, and power be to Him who is seated on the
throne and to the Lamb forever."

-- New King James
1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.'' Now this is
the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Yes, depending upon the context, we can see which way to go.

Which is why you had to CHANGE THE CONTEXT from CREATION AND CREATURES
to GOD HIMSELF. Get it now?

Which is why you had to switch topics from the original heavens and
earth to God Himself.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

See above.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:45:53 -0500
<fp6onk1v796id72k3sj9pl6ln6tb36vcnt@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 15:17:31 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:
========================================
On "olam"

It allows for continuity through judgment,
transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7rCo13, ESV).

See above.

See <d338c781-6649-4a09-bfef-9f8d250dfa13@christrose.news>

You try to interpret a few verses in the Old Testament in a way that
flatly contradicts others in the New Testament and Old Testament. Trying
to pit Scripture against Scripture proves your interpretations are lies.

You simply cited this without comment. Or did you just want us to know
that you used your AVG anti-virus on it?
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
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From Newsgroup: alt.bible

On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 20:45:14 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Thu, 29 Jan 2026 21:32:36 -0500
<br5onk5ffno2qt74bc5n4v4npbb2ul8oqj@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:

And good day to you also. (:>(

========================================

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 14:51:17 -0600, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

========================================
Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote:
========================================

oI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pito (Jonah 2:6, >>>>> ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
oForevero describes his experience, not endless time.

Yes, it probably seemed like forever being in that , stone grinding,
acid rich place for 3 days.

Then stop pretending like olam has to mean never ending duration.

And you need to stop saying it has an ending.

No, I don't, liar. You've already seen and admitted olam does not >necessitate a never ending period of time. Further, your proposed >interpretation about how it relates to planet earth flatly contradict
what the context of the New Testament teaches.

Opinion #478. Looks like you are breaking a record.

IT ACTUALLY MEANS BOTH.
Just check the context.

Take your own advice, stupid hypocrite. You're the heretic who ignores
the context of the NEW TESTAMENT when it doesn't suit the lies you try
to impose on the Old Testament. My view shows the harmony of the Old and
New Testament statements about the duration of the earth. Yours
contradicts both what the Old and New Testament clearly teaches, which
is that the earth will not last eternally, but will be folded up,
changed like a robe, dissolved by fire, and replace with a New Heavens
and earth.

Yes, that is what your literalness has concluded. God is going to
destroy what He called "Good", even though the heavens hasn't been
hardy contaminated with human intervention.

That's like buying a new car and there is a 2 inch scratch on the
outside, so then taking it to the junkyard and disposing of it, then
going out and buying another. THAT MAKES NO SENSE, and neither does
the parts of the universe that humans haven't visited yet.

But that's OK. The Bible is designed to separate true worshippers from
false worshippers. The ones who call Jesus "Lord, Lord", and Jesus
calls them workers of lawlessness.

Anyway, stay warm.

"What the Universe Tells Us About a Creator
The universe and the earth seem to be designed to make life possible.
Could they be that way because they were designed?
Find Out". See jw.org (1/30/2026)
James: zebrabible@proton.me
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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========================================
Fri, 30 Jan 2026 17:00:29 -0500
<j08qnk9r2ea1q0gpftd760r8qb45pm5jhl@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James <James> wrote: ========================================

You've already seen and admitted olam does not
necessitate a never ending period of time. Further, your proposed
interpretation about how it relates to planet earth flatly contradict
what the context of the New Testament teaches.

Opinion #478. Looks like you are breaking a record.

Lie #4,780

Notice, he tries to label as a mere "opinion" what he's seen both the
Old and New Testaments declare: 1) the present heavens and earth will be dissolved by fire, flee, and be replaced by a new heavens and earth.
He's also seen and admitted from the Bible, that 2) "olam" does not necessitate a never-ending period of time. Now he tries to label it mere "opinion".

1) Both the Old and New Testaments declare that the present heavens and
earth will be destroyed, changed, dissolved by fire, flee, etc.:

Psalm 102:25rCo26
rCLOf old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the
work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all
wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will
pass awayrCY (Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV).

Isaiah 34:4
rCLAll the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a
scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like
leaves falling from the fig treerCY (Isaiah 34:4, ESV).

Isaiah 51:6
rCLLift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth beneath; for
the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment,
and they who dwell in it will die in like mannerrCY (Isaiah 51:6, ESV).

New Testament passages

Matthew 24:35
rCLHeaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass awayrCY (Matthew 24:35, ESV).

Mark 13:31
rCLHeaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass awayrCY (Mark 13:31, ESV).

Luke 21:33
rCLHeaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass awayrCY (Luke 21:33, ESV).

Hebrews 1:10rCo12
rCLYou, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them
up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your
years will have no endrCY (Hebrews 1:10rCo12, ESV).

2 Peter 3:7
rCLBut by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up
for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodlyrCY (2 Peter 3:7, ESV).

2 Peter 3:10
rCLBut the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens
will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up
and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposedrCY (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).

2 Peter 3:12
rCLWaiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of
which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly
bodies will melt as they burnrCY (2 Peter 3:12, ESV).

Revelation 20:11
rCLThen I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for themrCY (Revelation 20:11, ESV).

Revelation 21:1
rCLThen I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and the sea was no morerCY (Revelation 21:1, ESV).


2) Add to that the fact that "olam" does NOT necessitate a never ending
period of time, and it confirms.

Next, olam does NOT necessitate a never-ending period of time in
relation to finite creation:

rCLI went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever
[olam], yet you brought up my life from the pitrCY (Jonah 2:6,
ESV).

Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).
rCLForeverrCY describes his experience, not endless time.

rCLThen his master shall bring him to GodrCa and he shall be his
slave forever [olam]rCY (Exodus 21:6, ESV).

This lasted for the servantrCOs lifetime, not eternally.

rCLI will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of the LORD
and dwell there forever [olam]rCY (1 Samuel 1:22, ESV).

rCLAs long as he lives, he is lent to the LORDrCY (1 Samuel 1:28,
ESV).

The text itself explains olam as rCLas long as he lives.rCY

rCLAnd he shall be your slave forever [olam]rCY (Deuteronomy 15:17,
ESV).

Again, lifelong service, not endless existence.

rCLSo these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial
forever [olam]rCY (Joshua 4:7, ESV).

The stones existed as long as the memorial stood, not eternally.

rCLLift up your heads, O gatesrCa O ancient doors [olam]rCY (Psalm
24:7, ESV).

The doors are old, not eternal.

rCLHe looked and shook the nations; then the eternal [olam]
mountains were scatteredrCY (Habakkuk 3:6, ESV).

Mountains called rCLeternalrCY are still shaken and altered by God.

rCLThe hill and the watchtower will become dens forever [olam]rCa
until the Spirit is poured upon usrCY (Isaiah 32:14rCo15, ESV).

Olam explicitly ends when God acts.

rCLMaking their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever
[olam]rCY (Jeremiah 18:16, ESV).

IsraelrCOs desolation did not last eternally.

Key biblical truth:

Olam does not mean rCLendless by definition.rCY It means duration viewed
from the standpoint of the subjectrCooften long, undefined, or complete
within GodrCOs purpose. Context determines its length. Scripture itself repeatedly places boundaries on it.

Therefore:

When passages say the earth rCLremains foreverrCY or the righteous dwell in the land rCLforever,rCY the word itself does not demand eternal preservation of the present creation. It allows for continuity through judgment, transformation, and fulfillment, exactly as later revelation teaches
(Psalm 102:25rCo26, ESV; 2 Peter 3:7rCo13, ESV).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

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