NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
HarryLime wrote:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike, Donkey.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
From 20 years ago
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm" >>>>>> The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm" >>>>>
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288--
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
It doesn't get any more direct than this:
Jay Hatfield:
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"
George Orwell:
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth,"
Jay appears to have taken Orwell's quote and substituted "breath" for "mouth."
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
It doesn't get any more direct than this:
Jay Hatfield:
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"
George Orwell:
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth,"
Jay appears to have taken Orwell's quote and substituted "breath" for "mouth."
Okay, agreed, that line is very similar.
Anything else match up?
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
It doesn't get any more direct than this:
Jay Hatfield:
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"
George Orwell:
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth,"
Jay appears to have taken Orwell's quote and substituted "breath" for "mouth."
Okay, agreed, that line is very similar.
Anything else match up?
Only the general concept of losing oneself in the sensual presence/essence of a lover.
Michael Monkey Peabrain aka "HarryLime" wrote:
[quote="George J. Dance"]Michael Monkey Peabrain aka "HarryLime" wrote: [quote="Michael Monkey Pearain aka "HarryLime"]
George J. Dance wrote:
I enjoyed your explication of this poem, MummyChunk. Contrary to
what you've heard, you do not have to provide commentary every
time you post or bump a poem. We have poems being posted here
without discussion all the time, without any complaints from anyone including HarryLiar. That said, I enjoyed your take on the poem, and
agree with your main take on the poem: Jay turned hid poem from a
standard valentine with the standard cliches to a confessional piece
about his own vulnerability, and made it a much better poem in the
process.
MMP: Bullsh*t, Dance.
These are the basic rules here:
1 ) Post and original poem.
2 ) Comment on someone else's original poem.
3 ) Post a public domain poem along with an original comment.
4 ) Reply to another member's comments.
GJD: This is an alt group, HarryLiar. There are no usenet rules governing it. Nor have I heard of any JLA Forums rules remotely like those.
I'd say you were the one bullshitting, but you'd probably insist that I'm
not allowed to because you said that to me first.
MMP: The rules are from the Guidelines, Dunce.
You remember the Guidelines.
GJD: Oh, they're from your "Guidelines"! Of course I rmmember those. I've even written about them (for those who don't remember them):
Lying Michael Monkey's Guidelines Lie https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JULBCDoohF0/m/drGpKkP0CAAJ
MP: You helped me to create them.
GJD: No, HarryLiar; I never helped you or anyone create any aapc "Guidelines". I
did try once to help you create a new FAQ for aapc, and we spent a month or so
debating a new definition of poetry; you're probably confusing that with your "Guidelines".
MMP: You bowed out later, when you realized that they would have stop trolls like Jordy from spamming the group with idiotic OT posts... but you were certainly familiar with these Guidelines at the time.
GJD: Actually, HarryLiar, I bowed out of your FAQ project because I'd already wasted a month discussing the definition of poetry, and had other things to do.
MMP: Yes, many poems are posted and bumped (usually by the Donkey) and don't receive any specific complaints. This is only because the Donkey posts, re-posts, and bumps so many poems that one cannot respond to them all.
GJD: Actually, most of the poems I've seen posted without comment recently are coming
from your NastyGoon colleague.
MMP: Liar. NancyGene rarely posts poetry here -- neither her own, nor those of others. Will Donkey bumps/re-posts-in-new-threads at least of dozen of his poems every day.
GJD: Actually, HarryLiar, NastyGoon posts at least one public domain poem a week
here, often two; that depends on how many are posted on Penny's Poetry blog that week.
But you're saying that that two posts a week is "rarely".
MMP: No one complains every time you use AAPC to spam post a link to your blaaargh. But we all have complained at one time or another. There's no point in complaining each and every time you spam post a link. You know how the rest of us feel about it, and you continue to abuse AAPC regardless.
GJD: I don't remember anyone but you complaining about the PPB promos. Perhaps your Goon or your minion have said something, or perhaps one of your stooges said so in the past. That certainly does not add up to "everyone."
MMP: PJR and others were complaining about your spamming the group with them when I first came here -- and had been doing so for some time before that.
And, yes, NancyGene and I, and others have complained about your spamming numerous times.
How many times have I explained to you that you should post the entire poem here, and include the link to your blaaargh in case anyone wants to read similar poems?
How many times have I explained to you that redirecting readers *away* from AAPC to your blaaargh is counterproductive to creating discussions here?
You've got one helluva faulty memory, Mr. Dunce.
GJD So it's not just you, your Goon, and you minion complaining; PJ Ross
used to complain, too! thanks for the correction. Now, speaking of memory:
I usually post PPB promos twice a week, which you're now calling
"spamming". Yet, remember, you just said that posting the same poems,
at the same frequency, is "rarely posting". You're being two-faced again.
MMP: I brought this up to Mummy Chunk because she seems like a fair-minded, courteous person. Will Donkey has been grooming her to be the next "Jordy" (swapping OT "Hello" posts with her, and encouraging her to necrobump old poems without adding any original comments). Mummy Chunk's comments were well written, and provided some insight into the poem. I'd hate to see her end up being the next "Jordy."
GJD: You've been complaining about the PPB promos to MummyChunk? I hadn't noticed; thanks for the info.
MMP: Why should I complain to MummyChunk? She's not responsible for your Bullsh*t.
GJD: I'd say it's because you like to whine about me to anyone, for any reason.
But only youcan answer your question here.
MMP: I think we can all agree that when she bumped an old poem along with an original comment, it served as a catalyst for the sort of literary discussions we should be having here. In fact, both Will Donkey and I participated without any of our usual combativeness.
GJD: As did I, but I see you've slipped back to your habitual trolling.
MMP: Did you?
Let's revisit your original post:
"I enjoyed your explication of this poem, MummyChunk. Contrary to
what you've heard, you do not have to provide commentary every
time you post or bump a poem. We have poems being posted here
without discussion all the time, without any complaints from anyone
including HarryLiar. That said, I enjoyed your take on the poem, and
agree with your main take on the poem: Jay turned his poem from a
standard valentine with the standard cliches to a confessional piece
about his own vulnerability, and made it a much better poem in the
process."
GJD: That's still in the backthread, HarryLiar. You don't have post
it a second time; when you do that sort of thing (and you do it
often), you're just garbaging up the thread, making it longer and
harder for a third party to read and follow.
Hmm... what's that "HarryLiar" doing in the middle of your post?
GJD: You are the one who's been telling MummyChunk there's a "rule"
that she has to post new "commentary" whenever she bumps a thread,
are you not?
MMP: That's right, lying Dance. You're the one who brought the
combative trollery back into the thread.
GJD: Oh, so referring to you as "HarryLiar" is "combative trollery."
Tell me: how many times in your "non-combative" discussion with Will
did you refer to "Donkey"? How many times did you refer to "Stinky G."?
How many times did you refoer to "Pickles"? For that matter, how
many times did you refer to "George J. Dunce"? (That last question
is purely rhetorical, because I counted those. You referred to "George
J. Dance" 26 times before I joined the discussion.)
MMP: We need more of this. We need more poetry discussions.
And we need more discussions in a non-combative environment.
GJD: Got it. When it's you calling others your chilish nicknames,
that's "non-combative" and we need more of it. When one of those
people calls you one back, that's "combative trollery". Once again,
you're being two-faced.
"
GJD: What do you mean, "we"? You tried to shut this group down years ago, and set up a new, "official" aapc on Facebook. You've got a f**k of a nerve trying to speak for it now. If you want to impose rules, and have non-combative discussions, you can go back to your Facebook fraud and do that to your heart's content. Leave the real aapc alone.
MMP: I never wanted to shut AAPC down, Dance. were the ones who attempted to do that.
And they almost succeeded.
GJD: Oh, really? Which one of them are you saying posted this:
"AAPC Has Officially Moved to FACEBOOK
Please join us at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/184972343500393
No trolls, Donkeys, Pissbums, or Dunces allowed." https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/-MvVRODZG18
That's signed "Coco DeSockmonkey", which has been proven to be one
one of your sock puppets (the one you used to troll Cujo deSockpuppet).
Are you claiming that "Dockery" or "Stink" forged it?
MMP: They drove Jim, NancyGene, Ash, Robert, Jim, Karen, Corey, and me to the Official Facebook Group.
GD: HarryLiar: you and NastyGoon obviously weren't driven away,
since you're still here. As for the others, most of them were
here up till your bogus announcement about aapc's "official"
move from usenet to your Facebook group. I'll bet that most of
those who moved still believe they're posting on aapc.
MMP: The C in AAPC stands for Comments.
GD: Correct; it's for 'comments' on poems that writers workshop. Which Jay is certainly not doing at this point.
MMP: There is no specification that the poems need to be workshopped. Discussing poetry helps all of us to better understand how poetry works. It is by discussing poetry that we are able to recognize, and put into words, what we like and don't like about poetry, what we think a poetry should be... basically, through poetry discussions, we come to formulate our own poetic theories, which in turn, become incorporated in our writing.
MMP: AAPC is a poetry discussion group -- not a data dump for copy/pasted poetry.
GD: aapc is a a place for its members to post what each thinks is appropriate. For some that's sharing poems with
commentary; for some it's sharing poems without commentary; for some, like you, it's gossip about other
people here. I don't like all of that, but I'm no more the king here than you are.
MMP: For me, it's about discussing poetry, poetry, and only poetry.
For you, it's a means of directing traffic over to your blaaargh.
GJD: For you, it's about gossiping about other people here, to get them
to provoke them to reply and start a flamewar: "combative trollery,"
as you call it when someone else does it. But when you, your Goon, or
your minion does it, it's "non-combative" "poetry discussion". As noted, you're two-faced, or (to use the latinate term) duplicitous.
MMP: AAP and RAP perform that function. Anyone who wants to bump or post an old poem without commenting on it, can bump or post it in either of those groups.
And you are the absolute person that Mummy Chunk, or anyone else around here, should take advice from.
GD: Really? I'm the absolute person that Mummy Chunk, or anyone else, should take advice from? Great, let me come up with some advice for her.
My advice is: Anyone who complains about poetry being posted here should be banned from JLA Forums.
MMP: Again, Dance, AAP and RAP were created for posting poetry to.
Last I check, the only actively posting member in those groups was... George J. Dance.
Why is that?
GJD: Probably because most of the people on those groups, like
most of the people on aapce, were accessing them through Google;
and Google has stopped providing web access to groups. You should
remember that; it was your excuse for trying to shut down aapc usenet
with your bogus "official" notice (see abovre).
MMP: Because no one wants to scroll through hundreds of posts to read a bunch of randomly posted poems.
GJD: That's why they should visit Penny's Poetry Blog instead. There they
can read "poetry, poetry, and only poetry", without wading through hundreds of
your trollposts. Here's a link for them: https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/
MMP: There are 1,000s of other poetry data dumps on the web for them to do that -- and nobody goes to those either (except to add their own poetry to the heap).
People come here for discussions. That's why this group is the only one that still has a handful of participating members left.
Treat it like another AAP and RAP and it will soon become as desolate as they are.
GJD: Actually, HarryLiar, aapc is still active because Will is still here, still determined to restore aapc to its former glory. That's why I'm here - Will supports my projects, so I support his - and that's why those trolling him, like you, NastyGoon, and Mr. Fries are still here as well.
MMP: Most people here seem to dislike you much more than they do I certainly do. Yet you only make a fraction of the posts that By all rights, you should be little more than a minor nuisance that can easily be skipped and ignored. The fact that you have become such a hated figure around here speaks volumes.
GD: Two people isn't "most", HarryLiar. I suspect that even your minion doesn't dislike me; the only person he appears to dislike is Will, for his own reasons.
MMP: Earth to Dance: everyone dislikes you. And everyone dislikes you more than Will.
GJD: Perhaps Mr. Fries dislikes me, too, HarryLiar; but I'll
have to hear that from him, not you. That makes three; who else
is your "everone"?
MMP: Will's a moron. People tend to cut him some slack... at least when he isn't trying to troll them.
GJD: I don't see any of your three cutting Will any "slack," HarryLiar.
It looks to me like you're all trolling him 24/7; even when you're
whining to me, you're trolling him (like here).
MMP: You're supposedly more intelligent than he is. When
you pull all of your lying, name-calling, slanderous Bullsh*t,
we figure you should know better.
GJD: There is a grain of truth in that, HarryLiar: your online
friends don't like me because I'm intelligent enough to know
where the "lying, name-calling, slanderous b*llsh*t" is coming
But so is Will.
(BTW,, Peabrain, you don't have to capitalize 'b*llsh*t'.)
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288--
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
Mo argument with that.
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will-Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
It doesn't get any more direct than this:
Jay Hatfield:
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"
George Orwell:
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth,"
Jay appears to have taken Orwell's quote and substituted "breath" for "mouth."
Okay, agreed, that line is very similar.
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
Mo argument with that.
This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288
--
Poetry and songs of Will Dockery:
https://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
No argument with that.
Who is Mo?
"Mo the Ho"
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288--
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
Mo argument with that.
This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288y
IsnrCOt it interesting? The things that get bickered about when there are far bigger problems to worry about like for example war?
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
"MummyChunk" wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
NancyGene wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
No argument with that.
This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288y
IsnrCOt it interesting? The things that get bickered about when there are far bigger problems to worry about like for example war?
MummyChunk, then why don't you and Will Donkey xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288--
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not in any direct way.
It doesn't get any more direct than this:
Jay Hatfield:
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"
George Orwell:
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth,"
Jay appears to have taken Orwell's quote and substituted "breath" for "mouth."
Okay, agreed, that line is very similar.
Will Donkey xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
HarryLime wrote:
MummyChunk wrote:
Jay Hatfield wrote:
Her Secret Smile
I have loved her secret smile,
and would bury myself inside of it:
The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,
the thrill of her full warm flesh against mine,
as I cradle the back of her head in my hands.
Her body will yawn and her voice will rise,
and I will beg her to lock me alone,
and to tell me that she will always love me,
even if it were only a lie.
I have loved her secret smile:
forever and welcoming.
Jay
--
Somewhere in the world it is Valentine's Day!
My Poetry Homepage: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!homepage.htm"
The New Home: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/!newhome.htm"
Her Secret Smile: "http://users.erols.com/tophat/secretsmile.htm"
From 20 years ago
And since this is a commentary group, what can I say...
What hit me first is how the phrase rCLsecret smilerCY does a lot of work, because it feels intimate, like a private doorway the speaker cannot stop returning to. The opening stays close to the senses in a specific way, with hair, breath, warmth, and hands at the back of her head, and it reads less like performance and more like someone trying to hold a moment still before it slips away. Then the poem turns toward vulnerability, because the speaker is not only craving her body but also craving reassurance, so much that he will accept a lie if it sounds like rCLalways.rCY That admission is the emotional center for me, since it reveals the fear underneath the desire and makes the longing feel human rather than possessive. With the February 13, 2006 post date in mind, it also carries that confessional early online honesty, raw and earnest, and it still lands now because the poem is clear about what it wants and what it is afraid of losing.
Thank you for that well thought out, and well written, commentary, Mummy Chunk.
I have to admit that the points you bring up almost succeed in convincing me that the poem is exceptionally good.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there's the poem.
It's not a bad poem... it's just not a very good one. Its narrative is that of a simple love poem. The suitor speaks of his longing for the woman, which is so deep that he would rather have her lie (that she will love him forever) than to have her stop loving him.
That's an emotion that most readers can readily identify with. But it's been done... and done... and done... ad infinitum.
Not that revisiting a tried and true topic is necessarily a bad thing. There are only so many topics one can write about, and even fewer that will have a universal appeal.
The problem is that when revisiting an age old topic (desperately loving someone/fearing your love may not be returned), one needs to bring something new to it. This could be done by introducing a new central metaphor, or by including some new metaphors in the body of the poem, or by adding a new twist to the story, or by viewing it from a slightly different perspective (perhaps cynically). None of which are even attempted here.
The words, phrases, and descriptions are all extremely clich|-d ("The smell of her hair, the taste of her breath,"), the touch of her hand, the shadow of her smile (to borrow a better line, and title, from an old popular song).
In fact, the only thing that stands out as potentially interesting about the poem is the title -- and it seems to have been almost arbitrarily tacked on. Whatever "secret" her smile holds, or how it qualifies as "secret," is never explained. It's also another pop song clich|-, as it's lifted from the old Nat King Cole hit, "Mona Lisa."
What's even worse, is that the final lines, in which he sees "forever" in her smile seems at odds with the preceding stanza in which he expresses his fear (that in her eyes he may not see forever, to borrow another line from a pop song).
IOW: the poem is basically a string of love song clich|-s, full of love and panting, signifying nothing.
Jay Hatfield was long before my time here, and I've certainly got no old score to settle with him. He's an okay writer; but only such.
I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, because you comments actually made me want to like it. I love it when someone's comments can teach me to appreciate a poem, or to look on a poem in a new way. The poem simply doesn't live up to your commentary on it.
That being said, the poem also plagiarizes George Orwell in "1984."
rCLThe smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity.rCY
rCo George Orwell, 1984
You must be trolling again, NG, the Jay Hatfield poem is nothing like that George Orwell quote.
HTH and HAND.
They are very much alike
Not particularly.
And it's certainly possible that Jay had been inspired by this passage from "1984."
However, as previously noted, the links between touching and sexual desire have used and re-used throughout the history of the arts as to become one of the biggest clich|-s of all time. Both Hatfield and Orwell were more likely tapping into the same clich|- from various sources too numerous to cite just one.
The Orwell quote may not have been a direct source of inspiration for Hatfield, but it's an extremely well written and powerful depiction of the overwhelming nature of physical desire, that it is well worth repeating in context of the discussion.
Also, "Jay Hatfield" is of the age that he would have had to read Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and 1984 in high school. He would have been familiar with these fairly short books.
No argument with that.
IsnrCOt it interesting? The things that get bickered about when there are far bigger problems to worry about like for example war?
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=672869622
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=658533288#658533288--
| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 59 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 07:18:00 |
| Calls: | 810 |
| Files: | 1,287 |
| D/L today: |
9 files (16,136K bytes) |
| Messages: | 206,255 |