news:af7d0d6b-d1c9-40dc-9a63-eb3ee15f93e5@googlegroups.com...
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
Here is the "Apple Montage" poem, for scrutiny and comment.
Good let's discuss this now and sort out Pen's lies....
Will-Dockery wrote:
HarryLime wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry.
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
Your poem does not even suggest any of the above.
The closest your poem comes to having a montage would be a series of lap dissolves showing the trees behind trees behind trees -- which is merely a bridge between the two scenes depicted, and which has *no* apples mentioned in it.
As previously pointed out, this is not an example of montage poetry, does not contain an example of a montage in it, and is 100% apple free.
You really need to read the articles you link before posting them.
This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=659653060#659653060
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
You cannot point out *one* specific example of montage in your poem.
The entire poem is montage.
Do you still not know what a montage is?
A montage poem is *structured* to present a series of separate images/ideas that, when taken together, create a bigger picture/concept.
Here is an example of a montage poem:
HOLIDAY SEASON
Christmas carols, jingle bells
Snowflakes, snowballs, Yuletide spells,
Stringing popcorn, trimming trees
Bedtime prayers on bended knees,
Roasted chestnuts, gingerbread
Rum-fed fruitcake, wooden sled
Hearthside glances, mistletoe
Romances by candleglow,
Winter wishes, Winter cheer
Usher in the coming year.
Christmas cookies, pumpkin pie
Reindeer flying 'cross the sky,
Sprigs of holly deck the halls
Girls dress up for Winter balls,
Rum punch, egg nog, nutmeg, clove
Choirs singing hymns of love,
Angels perched atop each tree
Elves on shelves for all to see,
Figgy puddings, fatted geese
Red wool stockings trimmed with fleece,
Ghosts of Christmas Future, Past
Christmas presents here at last!
Midnight masses, Santa comes,
Fairies made of sugarplums,
Watch for Rudolph's nosey glow
Crosby on the radio,
Manger scenes, a silent night
Dreams of Christmases of white,
Peace on earth, goodwill to men
Christmas time is here again.
There is no narrative -- just a list of things related to the Holiday season.
The succession of Holiday-related images play off of one another to create a bigger concept (an embodiment of the Holiday season) that one would not get from any of the images taken singularly.
If your poem doesn't follow this montage structure, it is not a montage poem.
Your poem, as I've told you several dozen times, is two scenes with a bridge. The bridge could be envisioned as a montage (a means of transitioning between the two scenes) but it is inconsequential to the action of either. And it doesn't contain any images of apples.
news:y4KdnSjXE_5H3f30nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my
de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in
poetry.
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n|i-et'|i-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in >>> which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time,
and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large
amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by
juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or
intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition.
In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes
editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside
the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create
symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by
British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest
the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined
numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves,
split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
The closest your poem comes to having a montage would be a series of
lap dissolves showing the trees behind trees behind trees
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is
apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson
Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
You cannot point out *one* specific example of montage in your poem.
The entire poem is montage, it uses montage effects.
I've known about montage since the 1970s.
My poem "Apple Montage" used montage effects in poetry.
I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
My poem is an example of the use of montage effects in poetry.
There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
the trees described are *apple* trees.
Is the title of your poem
I think the title of montage poem is well known by now.
It's a poem in montage form.
I've explained to you how "Holiday Season" is a poem in montage
form
Your poem is *not* in a similar form.
There's no set form for a montage in poetry.
You had said that "It's a poem in montage form."
Now you've corrected yourself, to say that there's "no
set form for a montage in poetry."
This is true, since "montage" is primarily used in film.
Montage is based on the juxtaposition of images, whereas poetry is
created with words; so the language of the cinematic medium is rarely transposed to the latter.
But as I've pointed out to you, the only portion of your poem which
could be said to function like a montage
It is the least significant part of the poem -- and a bizarre choice
to use for a part of the title.
And, again, there are no apples in it.
The trees behind trees
could be apple trees
You used the title because you thought it was "snappy." You've said
so in the past.
The fact that it doesn't apply to the poem
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry. >>
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
The closest your poem comes to having a montage would be a series of lap dissolves showing the trees behind trees behind trees -- which is merely a bridge between the two scenes depicted, and which has *no* apples mentioned in it.
As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
You cannot point out *one* specific example of montage in your poem.
The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.
I've known about montage since the 1970s.
I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
If your poem doesn't follow this montage structure
Your poem, as I've told you several dozen times, is two scenes with a bridge. The bridge could be envisioned as a montage (a means of transitioning between the two scenes) but it is inconsequential to the action of either. And it doesn't contain any images of apples.
There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
The trees described are *apple* trees.
Is the title of your poem
I think the title of montage poem is well known by now.
It's a poem in montage form.
I've explained to you how "Holiday Season" is a poem in montage form
There's no set form for a montage in poetry.
You had said that "It's a poem in montage form."
Now you've corrected yourself, to say that there's "no set form for a montage in poetry."
This is true, since "montage" is primarily used in film.
Montage is based on the juxtaposition of images, whereas poetry is created with words; so the language of the cinematic medium is rarely transposed to the latter.
But as I've pointed out to you, the only portion of your poem which could be said to function like a montage, is the bridge (trees behind trees behind trees). But the bridge is merely a linking device used to transition from the first scene (Will and Jenny smoking behind the barn) to the second (Will watching Dad and Uncle Fester cooking up a batch of apple cider).
The trees behind trees could be apple trees
You used the title because you thought it was "snappy."
it doesn't apply to the poem
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry.
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
The closest your poem comes to having a montage would be a series of lap dissolves showing the trees behind trees behind trees -- which is merely a bridge between the two scenes depicted, and which has *no* apples mentioned in it.
As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
You cannot point out *one* specific example of montage in your poem.
The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.
I've known about montage since the 1970s.
I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
If your poem doesn't follow this montage structure
Dockery: Again, there's no set structure for the use of montage effects in poetry.
MMP: Again, a "montage poem" and the use of "montage effects" are two very different things.
Your poem, as I've told you several dozen times, is two scenes with a bridge. The bridge could be envisioned as a montage (a means of transitioning between the two scenes) but it is inconsequential to the action of either. And it doesn't contain any images of apples.
There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
The trees described are *apple* trees.
you expect readers to know that by "trees" you mean "apple trees" -- and that the apple trees are bearing fruit.
Is the title of your poem
The title of my poem is "Apple Montage."
I think the title of montage poem is well known by now.
It's a poem in montage form.
You had said that "It's a poem in montage form."
Dockery: I used montage effects in poetry form.
MMP: You keep stamping your foot
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry. >>
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
The closest your poem comes to having a montage would be a series of lap dissolves showing the trees behind trees behind trees -- which is merely a bridge between the two scenes depicted, and which has *no* apples mentioned in it.
As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
You cannot point out *one* specific example of montage in your poem.
The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.
I've known about montage since the 1970s.
I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
If your poem doesn't follow this montage structure
Dockery: Again, there's no set structure for the use of montage effects in poetry.
MMP: Again, a "montage poem" and the use of "montage effects" are two very different things.
Not really, there's no set "montage form" in poetry.
There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
The trees described are *apple* trees.
you expect readers to know that by "trees" you mean "apple trees" -- and that the apple trees are bearing fruit.
Dockery: In context that's obvious.
MMP: No, Donkey, it isn't.
"To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees."
I grew up in a rural, farming community. Behind any given apple orchard was a forest. The local forests did not contain apple trees, but a mix of pine, maple, oak, holly and spruce.
And if there was another field behind the apple orchard, it either contained other fruit-bearing trees (cherry, pear), or plants (corn, lettuce, tomato, pumpkin, etc.).
The idea of an apple orchard with apples trees behind it, followed by a second apple orchard, followed by more apple trees strikes me as... bizarre.
Is the title of your poem
Dockery: The title of my poem is "Apple Montage."
I think the title of montage poem is well known by now.
MMP: I asked you why you post-edited my question, Donkey. Are you afraid to address the fact that an apple and an apple tree are two very different things?
Dockery: It's a poem in montage form.
MMP: You had said that "It's a poem in montage form."
Dockery: I used montage effects in poetry form.
"montage poem."
MMP: You keep stamping your foot
Dockery: Look who's talking.
MMP: I've repeatedly explained to you what a "montage" is.
I've also explained what a "montage poem" is
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry. >>
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.
My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
This argument was settled long ago.
Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.
I've known about montage since the 1970s.
I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
Again, there's no set structure for the use of montage effects in poetry. >>
Not really, there's no set "montage form" in poetry.
There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
In context that's obvious:
"To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees."
Will Dockery wrote:
mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:
Will Dockery wrote:
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
And here I thought you were going to ask if you could use my de-cluttered version for your next Twitter poem.
Refresh my memory?
I'd like to see that.
No, I wrote about the clutter in the thread, not the poem.
The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..
Here ^^^
This is still obvious ^^^
Define "poetry montage."
See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry. >>
Here ^^^
Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":
Dockery: There's no entry on the use of montage in poetry, though.
MMP: Let's ask Dunce's "trusted source":
"A montage poem layers disparate images, fragments, sounds, and ideas from various sources (like newspaper clippings, songs, slogans) to create a new, complex whole, reflecting fragmented modern life, much like film editing. It juxtaposes these elements without traditional narrative, inviting the reader to find meaning in the connections, contradictions, and rhythms between them, as seen in works like Langston Hughes' Montage of a Dream Deferred."
Well, lookee lookee. Dunce's "trusted source" uses practically the same description that I've been putting forward.
NOTE that it's a non-narrative poem juxtaposing images and ideas to create a "new, complex whole."
Holiday Season fits this description to a T.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)
Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):
"A montage (/m'n-et'-E'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of information to an audience over a shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.
"The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei Eisenstein,[1] it was used to create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the passage of time.[3]
"From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens, double and triple exposures), dance, and music."
Dockery: That's film, my montage is in poetic form.
MMP: Not according to the definition given to you by both myself and Dunce's "trusted source."
You poem has a narrative. Your poem does not juxtapose various images/ideas/sounds/etc. to create a larger, all-encompassing concept.
One could also argue that yours is not even in poem form -- it's a pair of two short anecdotes from your past in fiction form.
As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.
Dockery: My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is apparently ongoing.
MMP: As previously noted, it uses a transitional scene that *could* be considered a "montage sequence" in terms of a montage employed as a cinematic technique to show the passage of time. But even if it were, it would not make your poem an "montage poem." Nor would the use of a transitional effect be considered more important than either of the scenes is links -- and certainly not to such an extent that it would become the title. If that were the case, can you imagine how many old movies would have been named "Train Montage" or "Daily Calendar Page Montage"?
Dockery: Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.
MMP: Interesting that a renowned filmmaker would have used montage effects in his films? And how does the use of montage in Citizen Kane illuminate your supposed use of montage in your poem?
Dockery: Like it or not, my poem does use montage.
The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.
MMP: Like it or not, your entire poem is formatted as two scenes with a transitional bridge.
Again, here is the definition of a montage poem:
"A montage poem layers disparate images, fragments, sounds, and ideas from various sources (like newspaper clippings, songs, slogans) to create a new, complex whole, reflecting fragmented modern life, much like film editing. It juxtaposes these elements without traditional narrative, inviting the reader to find meaning in the connections, contradictions, and rhythms between them, as seen in works like Langston Hughes' Montage of a Dream Deferred."
Dockery: I've known about montage since the 1970s.
MMP: I watched Siskel and Ebert as well. But I only had a superficial understanding of montage until I read "Film Sense" by Eisenstein. Did you read Eisenstein in the 1970s?
Dockery: I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.
MMP: You have a vague, superficial idea of montage -- just as you have a vague, superficial idea of most words. As an autodidact (which I use charitably), you've interpolated your definition of most words from the context in which you were introduced to them. The problem with this educational approach is that most words have more than one meaning.
Here is how George Dance's "trusted source" describes Eisenstein's theory of montage:
"Sergei Eisenstein's theory of montage posits that meaning in film arises not from individual shots but from their collision and juxtaposition, creating a new, synthesized idea in the viewer's mind, much like a dialectical process. He identified five types (metric, rhythmic, tonal, overtonal, and intellectual) to achieve specific emotional or intellectual effects, with intellectual montage being the most significant, using conflicting images (like a bull slaughter and worker massacre) to provoke thought."
What individual ideas are being juxtaposed in your poem? What new, larger concept is being created via said juxtaposition?
Dockery: Again, there's no set structure for the use of montage effects in poetry.
MMP: There's no set structure for the use of montage effects, however, the effects in question would need to meet the definition of "montage."
Dockery: Not really, there's no set "montage form" in poetry.
MMP: How many times are you going to keep repeating yourself, Donkey?
Dockery:: There are thousands of apples in the trees, in the montage.
In context that's obvious:
"To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees."
These trees are obviously apple trees, any intelligent reader will see that.
MMP: There "several" apple trees with "other trees" behind them.
"Other trees" implies that the trees were *not* apple trees.
Dockery: It wouldn't look right if I'd written "apple trees" every time I mentioned the trees.
MMP: It wouldn't look any more or less "right"
"To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and more
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, more apple trees."
[/quote]
But again, one must ask why a transitional device used to segue from scene one to scene two would be of such significance that it should become the title the poem's title.
In your previous comments, you said that the poem was meant to be a nostalgic look at some of your childhood memories.
I see it as being concerned with various generations of a family stealthily indulging in minor vices.
apple trees were not discovered in Georgia until 1997
We correct ourselves--the poem takes place in the "backwoods" of Tennessee, instead of Georgia
Watching the trolls grasping for straws over a typo...
Pathetic.
:)
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
apple trees were not discovered in Georgia until 1997
We correct ourselves--the poem takes place in the "backwoods" of
Tennessee, instead of Georgia
Will Dockery wrote:
nancygene.andjayme@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (NancyGene) posted:
apple trees were not discovered in Georgia until 1997
We correct ourselves--the poem takes place in the "backwoods" of
Tennessee, instead of Georgia
This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=659653060#659653060--
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