I've never thought the router to be a culprit for spaffing passwordsIsn't the issue possibly that some piece of hardware (Firestick,
to 'the cloud' but the devices you hang on the wi-fi especially if
running google code (or other bad boys) do have that potential.
router, whatever) will ask what the WiFi password is to be and store
it somewhere as well as encrypting it?
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
In article <6d185k5o5q0ugbrbaa0n7rnu4ipdb226u8@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:28:43 +0100, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Google does seem to back up a lot of stuff to 'the cloud'
unless you tell it not to. This can include documents, pictures
and passwords,
Indeed, yes exactly.
but I think it's Google and not the wi-fi router itself.
I'm sorry, the wi-fi router?
I've never thought the router to be a culprit for spaffing
passwords to 'the cloud' but the devices you hang on the wi-fi
especially if running google code (or other bad boys) do have
that potential.
Isn't the issue possibly that some piece of hardware (Firestick,
router, whatever) will ask what the WiFi password is to be and
store it somewhere as well as encrypting it?
On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 14:51:13 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
As far as I know, once the wi-fi password (strictly not a password
at all but an encryption key regardless of what everyone calls it)
has been entered into the settings of the router and any device
that is to connect to it, there's no need for this information to
be transmitted anywhere else, so there should be nowhere to
intercept it. All that is transmitted between the router and
connected devices is data that has been encrypted using the
password, but not the password itself.
I think my television is on its way out. I now have it set to vivid
mode with the backlight at max and brightness at 80 and it is just
about okay to watch. The set is probably at least 15 years old.
I am looking at purchasing a new TV. I think 43 inches would be about
right for my (fairly small) room. However, I see there is LED, OLED
and QLED to choose from as well as Full HD and 4K Ultra and Smart or
Fire TV with prices ranging from -u169 to -u1399.
I am hoping for a bit of guidance here. OLED seems to be more
expensive, but is it better? Nearly all TVs of this size are 4K so I
suppose this is worth having.
Does Fire TV offer any significant
advantage? Is a 2025 model better than a 2024 model for the ordinary
user? Is there a market leader amongst the manufacturers?
Does any screen technology have a longer life?
Any advice or comments would be welcome from this erudite group.
On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 14:51:13 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
I've never thought the router to be a culprit for spaffing passwordsIsn't the issue possibly that some piece of hardware (Firestick,
to 'the cloud' but the devices you hang on the wi-fi especially if
running google code (or other bad boys) do have that potential.
router, whatever) will ask what the WiFi password is to be and store
it somewhere as well as encrypting it?
As far as I know, once the wi-fi password (strictly not a password at
all but an encryption key regardless of what everyone calls it) has
been entered into the settings of the router and any device that is to connect to it, there's no need for this information to be transmitted anywhere else, so there should be nowhere to intercept it. All that is transmitted between the router and connected devices is data that has
been encrypted using the password, but not the password itself.
On 18/06/2025 23:35, Roger Barrett wrote:
Three of my four samsungs failed with vertical lines on the screen -
I have had my Panasonic since we got DTT and not had any problems with it.
I remember one person in the trade saying that at that time most in the trade had Panasonic TVs.
Another good option is the nvidia Shield which runs Android TV - now old but >still pretty good and getting software updates.
On 19 Jun 2025 16:23:37 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Another good option is the nvidia Shield which runs Android TV - now old but >still pretty good and getting software updates.
Not if you ever want to watch All4 or U, otherwise it's a technically excellent piece of equipment. I had one once, but got rid of it
because of this.
It's unfortunate that reviews of streaming devices only seem to deal
with their technical capabilities and not make any mention of what
programmes they can receive, considering that receiving programmes is
what they're actually for.
Anyway, found it !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYpuILVtmfQ
Watch it, take the advice or not it's up to you but remember it's not
me saying it. :-)
Another good option is the nvidia Shield which runs Android TV - now old but
still pretty good and getting software updates.
Not if you ever want to watch All4 or U, otherwise it's a technically
excellent piece of equipment. I had one once, but got rid of it
because of this.
Do their apps not work for some reason?
Television shouldn't be about pixels. It should be about programmes.
On 2025-06-20 10:36, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Television shouldn't be about pixels. It should be about programmes.
+1
On 19 Jun 2025 20:42:31 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Another good option is the nvidia Shield which runs Android TV - now old but
still pretty good and getting software updates.
Not if you ever want to watch All4 or U, otherwise it's a technically
excellent piece of equipment. I had one once, but got rid of it
because of this.
Do their apps not work for some reason?
There aren't any, or at least there weren't when I had an Nvidia
Shield. A search online quickly revealed that this was a problem
experienced by others and had been for some time.
I really wanted the Shield to be my main TV device because it was
technically very good. It seemed to be particularly good at enhancing
video of dubious quality to look good in HD. For a while I also kept
an Amazon stick solely for the channels the Shield couldn't get, but eventually got tired of the nuisance of multiple remotes on the coffee
table and switching between devices. Currently I have the most recent
Amazon stick with 16GB storage, which is pretty good and can receive
all the programmes I want.
Television shouldn't be about pixels. It should be about programmes.
For any TV you buy, don't connect it to the internet. Smart TVs are a cesspit of spying:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/10/streaming-industry-has- unprecedented-surveillance-manipulation-capabilities/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/tv-industrys-ads-tracking- obsession-is-turning-your-living-room-into-a-store/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/tv-brands-face-inherent- conflict-over-user-privacy-advertiser-data-demands/
etc etc
Just use it for broadcast TV, then plug in a carefully chosen box or stick for internet TV functions.
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 12:36:47 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
On 2025-06-20 10:36, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Television shouldn't be about pixels. It should be about programmes.
+1
My brother elevates this to +2.
Another good option is the nvidia Shield which runs Android TV - now old but
still pretty good and getting software updates.
Not if you ever want to watch All4 or U, otherwise it's a technically
excellent piece of equipment. I had one once, but got rid of it
because of this.
Do their apps not work for some reason?
There aren't any, or at least there weren't when I had an Nvidia
Shield. A search online quickly revealed that this was a problem
experienced by others and had been for some time.
It looks like there's now a C4 app (renamed from All4) that works on the Shield:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AndroidTV/comments/1gecvfp/uk_finally_channel_4_android_tv_app/
and there's also a UKTV Play (now renamed to 'U:', a terrible name) too: >https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2450806/uktv-play-now-available-on-nvidia-shield
I agree it's taken far too long, especially given that Android TV is not >exactly a niche OS.
What makes you think that an Apple TV is doing more spying than an Apple stick? Or for any other brand?
It looks like there's now a C4 app (renamed from All4) that works on
the Shield: https://www.reddit.com/r/AndroidTV/comments/1gecvfp/uk_finally_channel_4_android_tv_app/
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
What makes you think that an Apple TV is doing more spying than an Apple
stick? Or for any other brand?
Because Apple's data collection and sharing policies are less egregious than other brands.
(Apple TV is a box, Apple don't sell sticks or integrated TVs. Apple TV+ is a streaming service but that's irrelevant to this discussion, aside from
that ATV boxes will try to upsell you the ATV+ service, so they're not entirely ad free)
"For any TV you buy, don't connect it to the internet.-a Smart TVs are a cesspit of spying:
On 21/06/2025 10:45, Theo wrote:
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
What makes you think that an Apple TV is doing more spying than an Apple >> stick? Or for any other brand?
Because Apple's data collection and sharing policies are less egregious than
other brands.
(Apple TV is a box, Apple don't sell sticks or integrated TVs. Apple TV+ is
a streaming service but that's irrelevant to this discussion, aside from that ATV boxes will try to upsell you the ATV+ service, so they're not entirely ad free)
Let me try that again, now you've clarified Apple's product line for me:
You wrote
"For any TV you buy, don't connect it to the internet. Smart TVs are a cesspit of spying:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/10/streaming-industry-has- unprecedented-surveillance-manipulation-capabilities/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/tv-industrys-ads-tracking- obsession-is-turning-your-living-room-into-a-store/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/tv-brands-face-inherent- conflict-over-user-privacy-advertiser-data-demands/
etc etc
Just use it for broadcast TV, then plug in a carefully chosen box or stick for internet TV functions."
The point I was trying to make would have worked better if I'd written Android, not Apple - Android TVs and Android STBs/sticks are available.
I doubt the spying is different between an STB and a TV.
But you would have worked that out if you were saying what I thought you were. Could you go back and clarify please?
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance game - it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Surely that's "survey" not "surveil".
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance game - >> it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 21/06/2025 10:45, Theo wrote:
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
What makes you think that an Apple TV is doing more spying than
an Apple stick? Or for any other brand?
Because Apple's data collection and sharing policies are less
egregious than other brands.
(Apple TV is a box, Apple don't sell sticks or integrated TVs.Let me try that again, now you've clarified Apple's product line
Apple TV+ is a streaming service but that's irrelevant to this discussion, aside from that ATV boxes will try to upsell you the
ATV+ service, so they're not entirely ad free)
for me:
You wrote
"For any TV you buy, don't connect it to the internet. Smart TVs
are a cesspit of spying:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/10/streaming-industry-has- unprecedented-surveillance-manipulation-capabilities/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/tv-industrys-ads-tracking- obsession-is-turning-your-living-room-into-a-store/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/tv-brands-face-inherent- conflict-over-user-privacy-advertiser-data-demands/
etc etc
Just use it for broadcast TV, then plug in a carefully chosen box
or stick for internet TV functions."
The point I was trying to make would have worked better if I'd
written Android, not Apple - Android TVs and Android STBs/sticks
are available. I doubt the spying is different between an STB and a
TV.
But you would have worked that out if you were saying what I
thought you were. Could you go back and clarify please?
The TV market is as follows.
TV manufacturers want to make the most profit.
TVs are now 'smart TVs', which enable them to spy on the viewing
habits of their owners. It's basically impossible to buy a non-smart
TV.
Therefore a smart TV can make money for the manufacturer by
letting them sell those viewing habits to advertisers.
Instead of selling the TV once and making one-off revenue, they can
get repeat revenue from selling those viewing habits.
The TV manufacturer can reduce the sticker price of the TV in
anticipation of the juicy repeat revenue - it's the 'cheap printer,
expensive ink' business model. They hope that now you own their TV
you're locked into their surveillance.
Because that revenue reduces the sticker price, to compete every other manufacturer also needs to reduce their sticker price.
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance
game - it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
The box market is similar (many Android TV boxes are full of spying
and malware, as are Roku) but there is more choice. Apple is
interested in selling hardware and services and not interested in surveillance (it's peanuts compared with what their users spend on
hardware and apps), so they have no economic incentive to surveil
you. Therefore, the Apple TV box is a refuge from the surveillance.
The evidence is their TOS which backs this up.
For nvidia, they aren't interested in spying on you either (they have
a multibillion dollar GPU market instead). Google definitely is, but
I'm not sure how much the Shield is sending your viewing data to
Google - I don't think they can see inside TV apps. So the Shield is probably the least worst out of the Android TV boxes, but not as good
as the Apple TV.
If Apple made a television then that would likely be a standout
product from a privacy perspective too, but they don't. So the Apple
TV box is the best option.
Theo
On 2025-06-21 20:51, Chris Green wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Surely that's "survey" not "surveil".
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance game - >>> it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
No, different meaning: >https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/survey >https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/surveil
On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:46:42 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
On 2025-06-21 20:51, Chris Green wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Surely that's "survey" not "surveil".
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance game -
it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
No, different meaning:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/survey
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/surveil
Is the suggestion being made not that 'surveil' is an exaggeration? Monitoring TV watching and purchasing habits is hardly on a level with professional surveillance of a citizen as a potential spy.
On 22/06/2025 09:59, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:46:42 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
On 2025-06-21 20:51, Chris Green wrote:
Surely that's "survey" not "surveil".
No, different meaning:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/survey
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/surveil
Is the suggestion being made not that 'surveil' is an exaggeration?
Monitoring TV watching and purchasing habits is hardly on a level with
professional surveillance of a citizen as a potential spy.
but doesn't survey suggest that the citizen is actually providing the information willingly but in this case may not even be aware what information is being collected nor that it's happening at all?
On 2025-06-22 12:21, alan_m wrote:
On 22/06/2025 09:59, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:46:42 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
On 2025-06-21 20:51, Chris Green wrote:
Surely that's "survey" not "surveil".
No, different meaning:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/survey
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/surveil
Is the suggestion being made not that 'surveil' is an exaggeration?
Monitoring TV watching and purchasing habits is hardly on a level with
professional surveillance of a citizen as a potential spy.
I'm not really quite sure what your (Scott's) point is here, but IMO the >point that matters is that the implied action (they are both verbs) is >materially different in the meanings of the two words.
Roderick Stewart wrote:
As far as I know, once the wi-fi password (strictly not a password at
all but an encryption key regardless of what everyone calls it) has
been entered into the settings of the router and any device that is to
connect to it, there's no need for this information to be transmitted
anywhere else
Yes, absolutely correct, but does the place where you have entered it
know that? .... or is it well enough programmed to know this and thus
not store the password anywhere?
Chris Green wrote:
Roderick Stewart wrote:
As far as I know, once the wi-fi password (strictly not a password at
all but an encryption key regardless of what everyone calls it) has
been entered into the settings of the router and any device that is to
connect to it, there's no need for this information to be transmitted
anywhere else
Yes, absolutely correct, but does the place where you have entered it
know that? .... or is it well enough programmed to know this and thus
not store the password anywhere?
Bear in mind that current versions of Windows and Android have features
to display the wifi 'password' or a QR code embedding it ...
Is knowing the WiFi password of any use to an attacker unless they
are parked outside your house?
The TV market is as follows.
TV manufacturers want to make the most profit.
TVs are now 'smart TVs', which enable them to spy on the viewing habits of their owners. It's basically impossible to buy a non-smart TV.
Therefore a smart TV can make money for the manufacturer by
letting them sell those viewing habits to advertisers.
Instead of selling the TV once and making one-off revenue, they can get repeat revenue from selling those viewing habits.
The TV manufacturer can reduce the sticker price of the TV in anticipation
of the juicy repeat revenue - it's the 'cheap printer, expensive ink' business model. They hope that now you own their TV you're locked into
their surveillance.
Because that revenue reduces the sticker price, to compete every other manufacturer also needs to reduce their sticker price.
This means every manufacturer also gets sucked into the surveillance game - it is economic suicide not to surveil your customers.
The box market is similar (many Android TV boxes are full of spying and malware, as are Roku) but there is more choice. Apple is interested in selling hardware and services and not interested in surveillance (it's peanuts compared with what their users spend on hardware and apps), so they have no economic incentive to surveil you. Therefore, the Apple TV box is a refuge from the surveillance. The evidence is their TOS which backs this
up.
For nvidia, they aren't interested in spying on you either (they have a multibillion dollar GPU market instead). Google definitely is, but I'm not sure how much the Shield is sending your viewing data to Google - I don't think they can see inside TV apps. So the Shield is probably the least
worst out of the Android TV boxes, but not as good as the Apple TV.
If Apple made a television then that would likely be a standout product from a privacy perspective too, but they don't. So the Apple TV box is the best option.
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