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Seven hours of train hell stops me going north
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Recliner wrote:Maybe Giles could go part-time as the Southern restaurant critic, and
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
It was a bad night on the railway.
Tweed wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
It was a bad night on the railway.Maybe Giles could go part-time as the Southern restaurant critic, and
The Times can employ a Northern restaurant critic?
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:34:06 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
My guess is that he was on the platform, and enquired of the train guard whether he could take that earlier train?
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single >>> to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
So Giles
could have bought the appropriate ticket from the ticket office, or online, but perhaps not from the staff on board.
Having said that, most staff would use some discretion in situations like that.
If thereAs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell >tickets?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
If thereAs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell >> tickets?
Apparently not. On the C5 series on ticket dodgers there have been
several cases of people without tickets spotting revenue protection
and buying tickets on their phones, only for RP to clock the time of
issue and say 'You didn't have a ticket when you boarded the train, so
you a liable for penalty.' Or words to that effect.
On Tue, 07 Oct 2025 15:25:18 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Apparently not. On the C5 series on ticket dodgers there have been
If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell >> tickets?
several cases of people without tickets spotting revenue protection
and buying tickets on their phones, only for RP to clock the time of
issue and say 'You didn't have a ticket when you boarded the train, so
you a liable for penalty.' Or words to that effect.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single >>>> to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on >> board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell tickets?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single >>>>> to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on >>> board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train >> the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of >> an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh.
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have been caught up in the chaos?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train >>> the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of >>> an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh.
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2025 15:25:18 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Apparently not. On the C5 series on ticket dodgers there have been
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
several cases of people without tickets spotting revenue protection
and buying tickets on their phones, only for RP to clock the time of
issue and say 'You didn't have a ticket when you boarded the train, so
you a liable for penalty.' Or words to that effect.
Which would be correct for those circumstances (otherwise why would anyone >buy a ticket unless a revenue team approaches), but in the circumstances >under discussion, the ticket would be purchased before departure.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >>> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be >> excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to >> do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling >> on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess >> from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before boarding the train.
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before boarding the train.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail travel is disliked.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train >>> the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of >>> an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh.
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >>> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be >> excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to >> do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling >> on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess >> from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before boarding the train.
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at >>>>>>>>> Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that >>>>>>>>> the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>>>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >>>> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be >>> excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to >>> do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess >>> from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >> boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail travel is disliked.
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >>> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >>> boarding the train.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail
travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say >>>>> anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have >>>> been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be >>> excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to >>> do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess >>> from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >> boarding the train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why
this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before departure.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >>> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >>> boarding the train.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why
this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before
departure.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must
be purchased.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before departure.
He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must
be purchased.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must
be purchased.
On 08/10/2025 13:51, Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was >> asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the >> first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no
value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the
ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a >> train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must >> be purchased.
But the 'advance first return' he claims to have purchased does not seem
to exists so presumably his 'Advance Single' train would not have departed, and that ticket could have some value when purchasing a new ticket.
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in >> partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a >successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in >> partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:51, Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was
asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office. >>>
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the >>> first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no >>> value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the >>> ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a >>> train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must >>> be purchased.
But the 'advance first return' he claims to have purchased does not seem >> to exists so presumably his 'Advance Single' train would not have departed, >> and that ticket could have some value when purchasing a new ticket.
Yes, if he had gone to the ticket office.
train managers standing on the platform selling excesses prior to
departure. TheyrCOve probably got better things to be getting on with. If he had approached a TM the correct response would have been to direct him to
the ticket office. Presumably CG saw the TM of an about to depart train and asked if he could pay the difference on the train. The TM gave the correct
advice that he could not, ie the train would be underway by the time the TM could deal with him. I donrCOt agree with the rules, but that is how they currently stand.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >>> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a
successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
The operatorrCOs view is unfortunately shortsighted. The problem is that treating the passengers thus erodes support for the railway in the eyes of the tax paying public. Whereas Swiss railways enjoy significant subsidy and great support from the public. ItrCOs the same sort of economic rCLwizardryrCY
that we saw with the mobile phone spectrum auctions. Fantastic revenues for the Treasury and consequently much reduced capital investment in coverage. This is why mobile reception on uk railways is poor and excellent in Switzerland. The good old knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >>> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >>> boarding the train.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why
this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before
departure.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must
be purchased.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was >> asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh. >>>>>>>
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why
this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before
departure.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the >> first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no
value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the
ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a >> train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must >> be purchased.
He was asking before boarding, and a friend who works in the same role for the same TOC tells me that the guard was perfectly capable of, and
permitted to, sell the upgrade. Or as you say he could have directed him to the ticket office, but from the usual London platform at Sheffield I personally wouldn't be confident in getting to the ticket office, the transaction done, and back on board within 15 minutes.
Also, although the official rules say "Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased", guards can issue excess tickets (ie altering an advance for a different train) at
their discretion.
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger >>> to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before >>> boarding the train.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines?
If thereAs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply:
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnAt be arsed or more likely didnAt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMAs laziness tbh. >>>>>>
Thanks, thatAs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on >>>> an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMAs ticket machine for him to >>>> do this. I have seen EMR TMAs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling >>>> on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail
travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it, and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket. It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
The operatorrCOs view is unfortunately shortsighted. The problem is that treating the passengers thus erodes support for the railway in the eyes of the tax paying public. Whereas Swiss railways enjoy significant subsidy and great support from the public. ItrCOs the same sort of economic rCLwizardryrCY
that we saw with the mobile phone spectrum auctions. Fantastic revenues for the Treasury and consequently much reduced capital investment in coverage. This is why mobile reception on uk railways is poor and excellent in Switzerland. The good old knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme. >>>> So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh. >>>>>>>
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel >>>>> on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible
fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off chance that someone might turn up.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >>> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a
successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
The operatorrCOs view is unfortunately shortsighted.
The problem is that
treating the passengers thus erodes support for the railway in the eyes of the tax paying public. Whereas Swiss railways enjoy significant subsidy
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh. >>>>>>>>
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible
fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to
roll this out to the other long distance routes.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket presented on >>> the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people
might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not
even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose. That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it,
and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket.
It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a
successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
The operatorrCOs view is unfortunately shortsighted. The problem is that treating the passengers thus erodes support for the railway in the eyes of the tax paying public. [snip]
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible
fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false >> comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited
capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now >> you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no >> longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to
roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure.
As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible
fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false
comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited
capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now >> you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no >> longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure.
As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the variation of fuel costs.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>>>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible
fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false >>> comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited
capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now >>> you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no >>> longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >>> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure.
As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the variation of fuel costs.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> posted:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train. >>>>>>>>>
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>>>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible >>>> fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false
comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited >>>> capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now >>>> you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no >>>> longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >>>> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure. >>> As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs >> simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number >> generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a
fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the
variation of fuel costs.
So, take your car for long-distance travel during peak*
and possibly for more than one wanting to travel.
If you have got one and are able to drive it.
The idea of time needed fore the trip might be less certain
than for train trvel, though.
On 09/10/2025 10:08, Tweed wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train. >>>>>>>>>
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail >>>>>>> travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible >>>> fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false
comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited >>>> capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now >>>> you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So
Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no >>>> longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >>>> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure.
As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs >> simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number >> generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a
fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the
variation of fuel costs.
You've rather missed the point. The number of different types of fares
has been reduced, thus simplifying the fare structure. The fact that it
was done by politicians means that most of the potential gains from simplification (from the customers pov) are negated.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 10:08, Tweed wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train. >>>>>>>>>>
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail
travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible >>>>> fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false
comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited >>>>> capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now
you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So >>>>> Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no
longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >>>>> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure. >>>> As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs >>> simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number >>> generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a >>> fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the
variation of fuel costs.
You've rather missed the point. The number of different types of fares
has been reduced, thus simplifying the fare structure. The fact that it
was done by politicians means that most of the potential gains from
simplification (from the customers pov) are negated.
I disagree. The number of fare types have been vastly increased, as each Advance has the potential of being different from one day to the next, or even one hour to the next. Lumping them all under one name is just
marketing smoke and mirrors. Additionally, advertising them as being a bargain is again a bit of a con, yes they are less than an egregious
Anytime fare, but itrCOs very similar to DFS claiming a sale on their sofas from some made up higher price.
On 09/10/2025 12:14, Tweed wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 10:08, Tweed wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09/10/2025 07:56, Tweed wrote:
Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:26:25 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 08:16, Tweed wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If there-As a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going north >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldn-At be arsed or more likely didn-At
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise
regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TM-As laziness tbh.
Thanks, that-As very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening
going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TM-As ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TM-As perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train. >>>>>>>>>>>
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have
regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
And all this complexity makes train travel desirable???? No wonder rail
travel is disliked.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to >>>>>>> travel flexibly.
The other difference is the widening gulf between Advance and flexible >>>>>> fares. Hotels charge around 10% extra for flexibility. Airlines are a false
comparator, trotted out by the railways. Airlines have strictly limited >>>>>> capacity and canrCOt afford to fly around with lots of empty seats on the off
chance that someone might turn up. LNER have abolished off peak fares. Now
you have the choice between an Advance and the full Anytime fare. So >>>>>> Advances can now rise to a much higher price than before since they are no
longer capped by the off peak fare. Beware as the powers that be want to >>>>>> roll this out to the other long distance routes.
But that is what the public want (sic)[1], a simplified fare structure. >>>>> As the government wants the railways to exist without increasing
subsidies, that inevitably means rising prices.
[1] Including many contributors on here.
Advances are not a simplified structure. On the surface perhaps. But itrCOs
simply a catch all name for, at the consumer facing level, a random number >>>> generator for fares. At least with the competition, ie a car, you have a >>>> fairly certain idea of the cost of a trip, whether you hop in the car
today, tomorrow, next month or next year. Plus or minus a bit with the >>>> variation of fuel costs.
You've rather missed the point. The number of different types of fares
has been reduced, thus simplifying the fare structure. The fact that it
was done by politicians means that most of the potential gains from
simplification (from the customers pov) are negated.
I disagree. The number of fare types have been vastly increased, as each
Advance has the potential of being different from one day to the next, or
even one hour to the next. Lumping them all under one name is just
marketing smoke and mirrors. Additionally, advertising them as being a
bargain is again a bit of a con, yes they are less than an egregious
Anytime fare, but itrCOs very similar to DFS claiming a sale on their sofas >> from some made up higher price.
That is your interpretation, not the DfT's. And their opinion is the one that counts.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:He needed to go to the ticket office. He canrCOt do it once on board. He was
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:To follow up on this, Sheffield to StP is part of the penalty fare scheme.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:If thererCOs a revenue protection team on board, is the guard allowed to sell
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 11:26, Recliner wrote:
Seven hours of train hell stops me going northGiles Coren sets out a good story but I don't understand why, when at
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4a081755-e4c4-40a2-943e-04e33eca9b39?shareToken=e523c0ac3d7947de228594402c1f242e
Sheffield station at 17:45ish, he couldn't have bought an anytime single
to London and got on the 18:00 train with it. His story implied that
the railway staff wouldn't let him.
Or even a super off peak single.
Perhaps the guard on the train is only permitted to penalty fare tickets on
board, at stations with staffed ticket offices and gate lines? >>>>>>>>>
tickets?
I have asked a friend who works for EMR, and this is their reply: >>>>>>>>
That TM is incorrect to say no. If travelling earlier than the booked train
the passenger is entitled to pay the difference to the full fare, by way of
an excess. The lazy fucker probably couldnrCOt be arsed or more likely didnrCOt
know how to do it.
To put it simply, I can sell whatever the fuck I like and no one will say
anything, and so can they. This is a freedom that I choose to exercise >>>>>>>> regularly.
The presence of the revenue staff just empower the TMrCOs laziness tbh.
Thanks, thatrCOs very interesting.
I wonder, had Giles been able to catch the 1800 train, would he still have
been caught up in the chaos?
Is this strictly correct? The implication is that Coren was travelling on
an Advance ticket (because even a super off peak is valid in the evening >>>>>> going south from Sheffield so he could have got any train). If you travel
on another train the Advance has no validity and as far as I know cannot be
excessed. So a fare would not exist on the TMrCOs ticket machine for him to
do this. I have seen EMR TMrCOs perform work arounds, a passenger travelling
on a Standard class Advance sitting in First. I think he charged the excess
from an off peak, where an off peak was valid on that train.
So travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket opens the passenger
to a penalty fare plus the need to buy a valid ticket. EMR stations have >>>>> regular tannoy announcements stating the need to have a valid ticket before
boarding the train.
Which is why Giles asked about ticket validity before boarding, and why >>>> this entire thread is about altering his ticket to be valid, before
departure.
asking the TM, who perhaps should have directed him to the ticket office. >>>
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/0aw/
Advance (Standard Class)
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the >>> first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no >>> value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the >>> ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a >>> train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must >>> be purchased.
He was asking before boarding, and a friend who works in the same role for >> the same TOC tells me that the guard was perfectly capable of, and
permitted to, sell the upgrade. Or as you say he could have directed him to >> the ticket office, but from the usual London platform at Sheffield I
personally wouldn't be confident in getting to the ticket office, the
transaction done, and back on board within 15 minutes.
Also, although the official rules say "Changes to tickets cannot be made
on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and
reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased", guards can
issue excess tickets (ie altering an advance for a different train) at
their discretion.
Trouble is discretion. You are at the mercy of the TM and how they are feeling. They can equally well hit you with a penalty fare plus the full fare. Penalty fares exist for mistakes, not for intentional evasion, so the threshold for issuing one is low.
On 08/10/2025 15:59, Tweed wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 13:56, Tweed wrote:
PS IrCOm not a supporter of the notion that an Advance ticket
presented on
the wrong train has no value. I canrCOt really see why it canrCOt be
used in
partial payment for the correct ticket. There are arguments that people >>>> might chance it and only pay when challenged, but the same goes for not >>>> even bothering to buy a ticket.
The idea is that you buy either commit to a train and buy a relatively
cheap ticket, or remain flexible and pay through the nose.-a That model
breaks if you can guess which train you'll catch, buy an advance for it, >>> and upgrade if necessary for no more than just buying a flexible ticket. >>> It's not an attractive model for the passenger but it seems to be a
successful way for the operator to monetise their monopoly.
The operatorrCOs view is unfortunately shortsighted.
Note that the "operator" is the DfT.
The problem is that
treating the passengers thus erodes support for the railway in the
eyes of
the tax paying public. Whereas Swiss railways enjoy significant subsidy
And there you have it. Until we get a government that believes good
public transport is vital to the economy and an electorate that is
willing to pay for it, then it is never going to improve.
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on
Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs
ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on
Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets
valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs
ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards them being the default ticket for long distance travel.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> posted:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on >>> Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>>>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a
flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs >>> ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London >>> against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of
selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards
them being the default ticket for long distance travel.
Which should be the same in economy air travel, maybe besides
some Scotland&Shetland flights.
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> posted:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on >>>> Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a
flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs >>>> ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London >>>> against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of >>> selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards >>> them being the default ticket for long distance travel.
Which should be the same in economy air travel, maybe besides
some Scotland&Shetland flights.
ThererCOs a false equivalence between air travel and train travel, encouraged by the railway industry. Most air routes have neither the frequency nor capacity of train routes.
And noting Ulf's post, not many trains to Shetland ....
On 10/10/2025 22:55, ColinR wrote:
And noting Ulf's post, not many trains to Shetland ....
Years ago a routine questionnaire was sent to all BBC sites, to update contact details etc.
One question about what was the nearest railway station, so the BBC team
on Shetland replied 'Bergen'.-a It was not actually correct but got the point over!
On 11/10/2025 18:42, JMB99 wrote:
On 10/10/2025 22:55, ColinR wrote:
And noting Ulf's post, not many trains to Shetland ....
Years ago a routine questionnaire was sent to all BBC sites, to update
contact details etc.
One question about what was the nearest railway station, so the BBC
team on Shetland replied 'Bergen'.-a It was not actually correct but
got the point over!
That story was also told about the MP for Shetlamd, I think it is just
an urban myth.
On 11/10/2025 21:31, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 11/10/2025 18:42, JMB99 wrote:
On 10/10/2025 22:55, ColinR wrote:
And noting Ulf's post, not many trains to Shetland ....
Years ago a routine questionnaire was sent to all BBC sites, to
update contact details etc.
One question about what was the nearest railway station, so the BBC
team on Shetland replied 'Bergen'.-a It was not actually correct but
got the point over!
That story was also told about the MP for Shetlamd, I think it is just
an urban myth.
I first heard it from oil workers talking about a colleague no one knew personally.
That story was also told about the MP for Shetlamd, I think it is just
an urban myth.
On 11/10/2025 21:31, Graeme Wall wrote:
That story was also told about the MP for Shetlamd, I think it is just
an urban myth.
Possible, I heard it from the BBC Lerwick team when I did an audit there.
Did you count the goldfish?
On 12/10/2025 08:34, Graeme Wall wrote:
Did you count the goldfish?
It was a QA Audit.
Were they good quality goldfish?
On 12/10/2025 13:32, Graeme Wall wrote:
Were they good quality goldfish?
Sure you know that it does not matter, all that matters is that
paperwork is correct.
.
On 12/10/2025 14:19, JMB99 wrote:
On 12/10/2025 13:32, Graeme Wall wrote:
Were they good quality goldfish?
Sure you know that it does not matter, all that matters is that
paperwork is correct.
.
That is why I am sceptical about this type of audit - so long as the >paperwork is correct all is good - that is balderdash!
I spent many years as an auditor (mainly H&S) where the practices were >audited with a subsequent check of paperwork. Just doing the second part
is useless.
That is why I am sceptical about this type of audit - so long as the paperwork is correct all is good - that is balderdash!
I spent many years as an auditor (mainly H&S) where the practices were audited with a subsequent check of paperwork. Just doing the second part
is useless
On 12/10/2025 17:31, ColinR wrote:
That is why I am sceptical about this type of audit - so long as the
paperwork is correct all is good - that is balderdash!
I spent many years as an auditor (mainly H&S) where the practices were
audited with a subsequent check of paperwork. Just doing the second part
is useless
A lot of it is pointless but it can be useful sometimes. One site that
I audited had been trying for ages to get documentation on some new equipment. I put it down as a Non-Compliance (I think that is the term)
and they were able to get it at last.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on
Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for
price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a
flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs
ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London
against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of >selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards >them being the default ticket for long distance travel. On LNER out of
London it is now Advance or the very highly priced Anytime. Flexible off
peak tickets have gone. A single trip from KingrCOs Cross to Edinburgh can >now be anything they choose up to the Anytime fare of -u204 (standard, no >railcard discount). Expect this to roll out on other routes.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs
ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London
against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
Would be an idea to allow a set of connections* on advance
ticket but that would come closer to regular off-peak...
In message <10camkm$3vngg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:06 on Fri, 10 Oct
2025, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on
Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that >>>>> 'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels
for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that
trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a
flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs
ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London >>> against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of
selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards
them being the default ticket for long distance travel. On LNER out of
London it is now Advance or the very highly priced Anytime. Flexible off
peak tickets have gone. A single trip from KingrCOs Cross to Edinburgh can >> now be anything they choose up to the Anytime fare of -u204 (standard, no
railcard discount). Expect this to roll out on other routes.
Talk to your MP, who may or may not have predicted a land of milk and
honey, once the railways were re-nationalised.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10camkm$3vngg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:06 on Fri, 10 Oct
2025, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <t8leekptqufpik6g7j17vejpr7b7pj8kou@4ax.com>, at 07:27:25 on >>>> Thu, 9 Oct 2025, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Train-specific tickets are popular because they're cheaper than tickets >>>>>> valid on any train. I suspect that many passengers would rather keep that
'complexity' for the price reduction which accompanies it.
And it's hardly an unusual business model. Trading off flexibility for >>>>> price has been common in the airline industry for decades, and hotels >>>>> for about 10-20 years. The main difference with the railways is that >>>>> trains are frequent, rubbing it in that you've sold your right to
travel flexibly.
There's also the other elephant in the room, which is once a
flight/train/hotel-room/theatre-seat has departed, you can't
sell it on clearance the next day.
When the current AP ticketing scheme was introduced a little over 20yrs >>>> ago, it also replaced half a dozen other ticketing schemes which were
designed to sell otherwise unoccupied seats at a discount to OAPs,
people travelling as not-commuters at weekends, and going to/from London >>>> against the commuting tidal flow.
One of them - APEX - even used the same name as airlines.
IrCOve no problem with Advances being a bin end bargain basement means of >>> selling excess capacity. My issue is that the railway is creeping towards >>> them being the default ticket for long distance travel. On LNER out of
London it is now Advance or the very highly priced Anytime. Flexible off >>> peak tickets have gone. A single trip from KingrCOs Cross to Edinburgh can >>> now be anything they choose up to the Anytime fare of -u204 (standard, no >>> railcard discount). Expect this to roll out on other routes.
Talk to your MP, who may or may not have predicted a land of milk and
honey, once the railways were re-nationalised.
Not worth the effort. No politician of any stripe cares about providing a >decent railway service. ItrCOs probably been like this since the invention of >the railways. They all concentrate on ownership rather than outcomes.