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Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs >for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News >Channel.
Theo
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris J Dixon wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Seems that most foreign broadcasters have already stopped using them,
but the BBC staff interviewed favoured keeping them for
nostalgia/tradition.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. ItrCOs wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not everyone is aware of the limitations.
On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. ItrCOs
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as required.
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. ItrCOs wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not everyone is aware of the limitations.
Max Demian wrote:
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.
The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
Mark Carver wrote:
Max Demian wrote:
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches
as required.
The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1 second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. ItrCOs >wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not >everyone is aware of the limitations.
In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about
pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. ItrCOs >wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not >everyone is aware of the limitations.
In message <-Nn*VDQCz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 12 Feb 2024 22:37:51, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs >>for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News >>Channel.
Theo
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit more than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough to set your watch by.
I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any pretence that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable digital processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a frame counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be displayed on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it pompous, but it _is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any professional still use a luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for example?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
you can't blame boomers for everything. - Joe Queenan, RT 2023/6/24-30
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
- "Super8rescue" 2022
On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as required.
--
Max Demian
On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb >>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake >>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.
It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel something
in the right direction towards Pluto
In message <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not broadcast them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve expense.
In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
I do.
Because?
Chris
People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's >>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not >>everyone is aware of the limitations.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.
There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
makeup out.
Brian
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot >be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian
Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as >modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the >right place nowadays.
I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to >get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian
On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
no we don't but you could bet someone would moan if they went.
it's seems to be a peculiarly radio thing that many listeners expect the station to be preserved in aspic, never changing. you wouldn't expect
bbc 1 to be similar to how it was in 1970.
like... the shipping forecast. what person whose life might depend on
that would listen to it on the radio instead of via other modern means?
On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches asThe +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
required.
It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:AKUrkN2xZnylFwu4@255soft.uk...
In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
Andy Burns wrote:
With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris
Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about
pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
I was just thinking about time signals and clocks generally. I guess you could have some kind of internal radio pips.
Brian Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking about time signals and clocks generally. I guess you
could have some kind of internal radio pips.
I think the News24 approach, i.e. having some pip-like noises in the
jingle that plays up to the start of the program roughly on the hour,
works well enough ...
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.
Andy Burns writes:
I think the News24 approach, i.e. having some pip-like noises in theI'm pretty sure the news24 countdown - even allowing for the varying transmission delays - is only a jingle, not actually started so that it reaches zero on the hour anywhere.
jingle that plays up to the start of the program roughly on the hour,
works well enough ...
On 28/02/2024 01:41, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.
Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
On 28/02/2024 07:40, JMB99 wrote:
On 28/02/2024 01:41, J. P. Gilliver wrote:If a smartphone with a GPS receiver built in is available, the time
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.
Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.
shown on that is within the error caused by the speed of light from
orbit. (If three or more satellites are within line of sight, that
error can be eliminated)
My phones, even the first digital phone I had, display network time,
which in turn is derived from GPS or NPL time.
In message <uqgf8n$27gpm$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:17:42, >Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes[]
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by
the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely
remember hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the
timing of the pips so that a typical listener in the home counties,
say 50 km from a London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the
most accurate signal.a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that >>would get a time signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in
more distant parts of the UK would necessarily get it a few
milliseconds late, but there really wasn't much they could do about
that at reasonable cost.aa Does anyone else remember that or is my
memory playing tricks?
How many set their watch to an accuracy of 1 millisecond?
I suspect that if you stopped some people in the street, their watches
would be many minutes out.
In message <uqgf8n$27gpm$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:17:42, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
They were and have not stopped. I think what you are thinking of is that they no longer - from sometime in the 1990s I think, I remember
listening to the last ones that did, with slight sadness - come from the Greenwich observatory at Herstmonceux; they, or at least the time
reference, come from the CET in Europe (for practical purposes Germany).
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
The actual pips sound is BBC-generated and had been for a long time (the signal from Herstmonceux was a tone with interruptions rather than
silence with tones, so that it could easily be told whether the line had gone down). Any countdown to aid producers wouldn't have to have much
time precision so could be from any good clock.
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on theYes, if you want something accurate to even a second or so, don't use
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
DAB or FreeView, use FM. Or, as many have said, a smartphone _as long as
it has GPS_ (which _relies_ on a very precise time reference to work).
On 28/02/2024 07:40, JMB99 wrote:
On 28/02/2024 01:41, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.
Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.If a smartphone with a GPS receiver built in is available, the time
shown on that is within the error caused by the speed of light from
orbit. (If three or more satellites are within line of sight, that error
can be eliminated)
My phones, even the first digital phone I had, display network time,
which in turn is derived from GPS or NPL time.
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
I'd defy anyone to be _able_ to set it to closer than 100, more like 500
(-:
As another has said, distance from speaker in the room probably gives
more variation!
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's >loudspeaker !
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by
the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I >>> wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >>> different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.aa Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.aa But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.aa Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
Max Demian wrote:
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know >>this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and--
it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I
generally find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
In article <l48p8jFtj3iU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by >>>> the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I >>>> wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >>>> different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it >>>> would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very >>> good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all >>> BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" >>> or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight >>> on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But >>> I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always >>> seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember >>> hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time >>> signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of >>> the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does >>> anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
loudspeaker !
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..
Max Demian wrote:
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
A phone isnrCOt going to get GPS time indoors. I imagine the cellular networks have very accurate time these days. ItrCOs quite hard not to, as the easy way is to use NTP within the core. Mind you, IrCOve noticed an increasing number of cell sites sporting GPS antennas, so there must be a need now either for very accurate time or perhaps they are being used as a frequency standard (or both).
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
A phone isnrCOt going to get GPS time indoors.
I imagine the cellular
networks have very accurate time these days.
ItrCOs quite hard not to, as the
easy way is to use NTP within the core. Mind you, IrCOve noticed an increasing number of cell sites sporting GPS antennas, so there must be a need now either for very accurate time or perhaps they are being used as a frequency standard (or both).
Tweed wrote:
A phone isnrCOt going to get GPS time indoors.
Mine happily sees 20-30 satellites indoors (from multiple constellations)
Proper GPS receivers indicate whether they are receiving a sign and
usually how long since they last updated.
I have never seen a mobile phone indicate when it last updated.
Max Demian wrote:
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of 0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
https://time.is/It tells me that mine is 0.028 seconds out, but is not clear whether it takes into account the ping time when calculating it.
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
Ping times of time.is from here ranged between 28 and 42 milliseconds.
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order >>> due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell. >>
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of 0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's >>>>> allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally >>>>> find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and >>>> time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order >>>> due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
Time.is reports:
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (-#0.070 seconds).
Time in Liverpool, United Kingdom now:
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?
In article <l48p8jFtj3iU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by >>>> the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I >>>> wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >>>> different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it >>>> would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very >>> good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all >>> BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" >>> or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But >>> I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always >>> seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time >>> signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of >>> the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does >>> anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
loudspeaker !
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
A phone isnrCOt going to get GPS time indoors. I imagine the cellular[]
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
https://time.is/It tells me that mine is 0.028 seconds out, but is not clear whether it >takes into account the ping time when calculating it.
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
Ping times of time.is from here ranged between 28 and 42 milliseconds.
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's >>>>>> allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally >>>>>> find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and >>>>> time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order >>>>> due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ >>>>
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of >>> 0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and >>> how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
Time.is reports:
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (-#0.070 seconds).
Time in Liverpool, United Kingdom now:
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?
It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the best of times. IrCOm geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and traded blocks of IP addresses.
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return where rCLtheyrCY think you are.
On 29/02/2024 11:41, Tweed wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's >>>>>>> allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally >>>>>>> find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and >>>>>> time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order >>>>>> due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ >>>>>
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of >>>> 0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and >>>> how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your >>>> devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
Time.is reports:
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (-#0.070 seconds).
Time in Liverpool, United Kingdom now:
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?
It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the >> best of times. IrCOm geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I >> was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.
That could be the reason.
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return
where rCLtheyrCY think you are.
I have "location" turned off in my browser's settings, and it's not
going back on, so that site doesn't work.
In message <l4a9crF5trqU1@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 29 Feb 2024
02:44:42, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
Max Demian wrote:I think a lot of 'phones with a GPS receiver built in have the ability
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?
If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.
to turn it off (to save battery I think is the main reason - it's receive-only, so not a privacy issue directly [though depending on the
local laws in your country it may be interrogatable for where you are]);
I would assume that, if the GPS receiver is on, any time the 'phone
displays is from the GPS.
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and
it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I
generally find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
In article <l48p8jFtj3iU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by >>>> the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I >>>> wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >>>> different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it >>>> would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very >>> good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all >>> BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" >>> or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But >>> I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always >>> seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time >>> signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of >>> the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does >>> anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
loudspeaker !
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..
Jeff Layman <jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/02/2024 11:41, Tweed wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/02/2024 10:55, Tweed wrote:
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's >>>>>>>> allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally >>>>>>>> find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.
I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and >>>>>>> time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?
That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ >>>>>>
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.
https://time.is/
time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time >>>>> source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of >>>>> 0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and >>>>> how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your >>>>> devicerCOs system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.
How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen, >>>> who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
Time.is reports:
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (-#0.070 seconds).
Time in Liverpool, United Kingdom now:
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?
It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the >>> best of times. IrCOm geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I >>> was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.
That could be the reason.
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return >>> where rCLtheyrCY think you are.
I have "location" turned off in my browser's settings, and it's not
going back on, so that site doesn't work.
You can decline the invitation to turn on browser location. The site still works.
On 29/02/2024 00:31, tony sayer wrote:
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who haveThey used to say that radio listeners in Australia heard the chime of
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..
Big Ben before someone outdoors in Lambeth!
On 29/02/2024 14:59, Mike Headon wrote:
They used to say that radio listeners in Australia heard the chime of
Big Ben before someone outdoors in Lambeth!
Marginal. If you stand on the South Bank next to Westminster Bridge, the speed of sound delay is about 750 milliseconds.
Transmission delay to and from geostationary orbit is about half a
second plus landline delay at each end, not forgetting that at least two satellites are involved due to imitations of coverage. Using landline
all the way is even slower. You may do slightly better using the
Starlink constellation, which are all in very low orbits and can link
with each other, with a ping time to a ground station of about 50 ms.
tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
In article <l48p8jFtj3iU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's >>> loudspeaker !
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by >>>>> the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I >>>>> wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the >>>>> different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it >>>>> would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very >>>> good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all >>>> BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" >>>> or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight >>>> on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always >>>> seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember >>>> hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a >>>> London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time >>>> signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of >>>> the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does >>>> anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..
Rubidium standards donrCOt tell the time.
In article <urpch5$dk50$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
In article <l48p8jFtj3iU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus
On 28/02/2024 12:17, Clive Page wrote:
On 13/02/2024 19:17, Brian Gaff wrote:A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's >>>> loudspeaker !
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by >>>>>> the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it >>>>>> would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
-a Brian
The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very >>>>> good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.-a-a Like nearly all >>>>> BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" >>>>> or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight >>>>> on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.-a-a But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always >>>>> seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember >>>>> hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the >>>>> pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a >>>>> London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.-a Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time >>>>> signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of >>>>> the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.-a-a Does >>>>> anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have >>> clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..
Rubidium standards donrCOt tell the time.
No course not my mistake! accurate frequency is more important to me !
For which i have a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard works very well and
you can output whatever frequency you want from it:)..
https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107
i have a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard works very well and
you can output whatever frequency you want from it:)..
https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107