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| Messages: | 174,724 |
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no >online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to >boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to
boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have) Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother". Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They have
an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3 months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things up. A
driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have)
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:19:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to
boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Didn't it say what ID was required?
Can't you call the DWP on the person's behalf? I think the DWP must be
used to having claimants unable to act for themselves, for whatever
reason. I think my sister rang on our brother's behalf; he lives in
Germany and was nervous about dealing with British beaurocracy.
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name,
NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything
else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name,
NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything
else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything
else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have
neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything
else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have
neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything
else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have
neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
Their most recent expired passport *if* they can find it is merely 3
decades out of date. I seriously doubt if they look much like that
picture now.
They do have a blue badge but only because relatives forced it on them.
They don't have a pensioners bus pass.
The P60 is only valid for 3 months after issue according to DWP and so
is past its use by date. They don't get a monthly remittance notice.
No utility bills are in their name at their home address.
When they come back in with an NI number (and/or expired passport) next
week then we will try phoning DWP on their behalf.
This is by far the most tangled proof of identity mess I have ever seen.
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything >>>>> else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask
why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
I don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced people forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name, address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-naturalisation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
On 07/10/2025 21:45, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it might well have been issued before the DVLA existed.
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them
my name, NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have
been anything else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to
be paid, to ask why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
I don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced people
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-naturalisation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
(It) "began operations in 1974 to centralise the responsibilities of the County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor vehicles"
(Which sounds like a recipe for stuff going astray.)
Hence there is no guarantee they actually had/have the records.
On 07/10/2025 21:45, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything >>>>>> else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask >>>>>> why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
I don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced people
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-naturalisation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it might well have been issued before the DVLA existed.
(It) "began operations in 1974 to centralise the responsibilities of the County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor vehicles"
(Which sounds like a recipe for stuff going astray.)
Hence there is no guarantee they actually had/have the records.
If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it mightI don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced peopleIt is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-natural >>isation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
well have been issued before the DVLA existed.
(It) "began operations in 1974 to centralise the responsibilities of
the County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor
vehicles"
(Which sounds like a recipe for stuff going astray.)
Hence there is no guarantee they actually had/have the records.--
On 7 Oct 2025 at 20:55:05 BST, "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost.
They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
Their most recent expired passport *if* they can find it is merely 3
decades out of date. I seriously doubt if they look much like that
picture now.
They do have a blue badge but only because relatives forced it on them.
They don't have a pensioners bus pass.
The P60 is only valid for 3 months after issue according to DWP and so
is past its use by date. They don't get a monthly remittance notice.
No utility bills are in their name at their home address.
When they come back in with an NI number (and/or expired passport) next
week then we will try phoning DWP on their behalf.
This is by far the most tangled proof of identity mess I have ever seen.
Does the P60 not have the NI number on it?
In message <hhgFQ.471$S8X4.174@fx08.ams1>, at 23:14:38 on Tue, 7 Oct
2025, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> remarked:
If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it might-aI don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced peopleIt is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you >>>>>> have
neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed. >>>>
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost. >>>> They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-natural
isation-certificates
-aHopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
well have been issued before the DVLA existed.
It's a bit of a co-incidence though. So might well be a very early DVLA- issued licence.
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have) Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother". Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They have
an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3 months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things up. A
driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
On 07/10/2025 14:19, Martin Brown wrote:
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of
officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID
footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Like your friend/relative, I-a have neither a driving licence nor current passport, although I do have both email address and mobile phone, along
with my NI Number.-a I think I used my birth certificate and, probably, a council tax bill and/or,-a if they wanted something with a photo, my blue badge.
If you can get their utility bills and council tax transferred into
their own name, that should probably fix the problem of necessary id.
When sorting the council tax, they should, presumably, also be able to
claim the 25% sole occupancy discount.
Their NI Number should be on their P60 or, if you can find any of the letters from DWP, inviting them to claim their pension.
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 21:45, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>>>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything >>>>>>> else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask >>>>>>> why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed. >>>>
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost. >>>> They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which
ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
I don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced people
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's
had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-naturalisation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it might well
have been issued before the DVLA existed.
(It) "began operations in 1974 to centralise the responsibilities of the
County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor vehicles"
(Which sounds like a recipe for stuff going astray.)
Hence there is no guarantee they actually had/have the records.
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO certificates of competence to drive had gone astray in the changeover. My certificates (car and motorcycle) had been issued by Middlesex County Council, which disappeared in 1965, and my certificates probably were lost either with the demise of MCC or in the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC.
Should I turn myself in?
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to<snip>
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no >online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have) Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother". Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They have
an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3 months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things up. A
driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 21:45, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my name, >>>>>>>> NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been anything >>>>>>>> else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be paid, to ask >>>>>>>> why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you have >>>>>>> neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're >>>>>> over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension owed. >>>>>
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now lost. >>>>> They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result (which >>>>> ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like that).
I don't see how that's a problem. DVLA must have experienced people
forgetting their driver number before. You say they've never moved,
and they presumably know their own date of birth. So you've got name,
address, date of birth, which will uniquely identify the driver in
the DVLA's database, assuming they're even in there as a record that's >>>> had zero activity since long before computerisation. It may well be
that the DVLA specifically say to apply as a new driver rather than
a renewal, in which case you'll need one of the IDs listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence#uk-birth-adoption-and-naturalisation-certificates
Hopefully this doesn't still result in a Catch-22 situation.
If that provisional licence is from around "5 decades ago" it might well >>> have been issued before the DVLA existed.
(It) "began operations in 1974 to centralise the responsibilities of the >>> County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor vehicles"
(Which sounds like a recipe for stuff going astray.)
Hence there is no guarantee they actually had/have the records.
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO certificates
of competence to drive had gone astray in the changeover. My certificates
(car and motorcycle) had been issued by Middlesex County Council, which
disappeared in 1965, and my certificates probably were lost either with the >> demise of MCC or in the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC.
Should I turn myself in?
If you're saying you don't have a current driving licence, and that you
have driven a motor vehicle recently, then, er, probably yes?
On 07/10/2025 02:19 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due
to not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming
their state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated
payments (approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with
no online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex
situations or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways
to boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will
accept. They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly
understood. Right now they don't even have a working phone or
landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost) NI Number
(might have a card, not seen) NHS number (seen) University
graduation certificate (not seen) Passport - ca 1990's (long expired
- never renewed, might still have) Disabled persons Car Parking Blue
Badge (current, seen) P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of
mother". Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They
have an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3
months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a
start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving
licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul
things up. A driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can
sign ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto
housebound and have been since before Covid. A handful of their
university colleagues are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them
will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze
of officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually
no ID footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it? Thanks for any
suggestions.
I'm not aware that the Pensions Service is in the habit of putting unreasonable obstacles in the way of pension claimants, or of any
other way of denying or delaying claims.
I claimed by phone, gave a few ID details and started getting payment
a couple of weeks later.
Of your list, the expired passport would still have the effect of identifying the holder.
On 07/10/2025 18:50, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-10-07, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my
name, NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been
anything else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be
paid, to ask why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you
have neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more
difficult.
I'd go for drivers' licence. There might be extra checks if they're
over 70 though.
They are not over 70 they are 68 with two years of state pension
owed.
That *is* the problem though. They have *never had* a full drivers
licence apart from a provisional one about 5 decades ago and now
lost. They must have had a drivers license number issued as a result
(which ISTR in that era ended with DOB backwards or something like
that).
Their most recent expired passport *if* they can find it is merely 3
decades out of date. I seriously doubt if they look much like that
picture now.
They do have a blue badge but only because relatives forced it on
them.
They don't have a pensioners bus pass.
The P60 is only valid for 3 months after issue according to DWP and
so is past its use by date. They don't get a monthly remittance
notice.
No utility bills are in their name at their home address.
When they come back in with an NI number (and/or expired passport)
next week then we will try phoning DWP on their behalf.
This is by far the most tangled proof of identity mess I have ever
seen.
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO
certificates of competence to drive had gone astray in the
changeover. My certificates (car and motorcycle) had been issued by
Middlesex County Council, which disappeared in 1965, and my
certificates probably were lost either with the demise of MCC or in
the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC. Should I turn
myself in?
If you're saying you don't have a current driving licence, and that you
have driven a motor vehicle recently, then, er, probably yes?
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full licence. Exactly how this loss was covered by the appropriate authorities remains unclear.
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:19:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to<snip>
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Obviously, asking here is part of the process of finding out what you
need to know and it looks as if you have received useful suggestions
but...
When you say "we" are you working on behalf of a volunteer
organisation (CAB comes to mind)? If it's a big enough organisation
then this situation must have arisen dozens if not hundreds of times
so are there people upstream in the organisation who might have a
tried and tested solution?
Nick
(who hasn't driven for 25 years and was planning to let his driving
licence lapse but is now having second thoughts.)
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO
certificates of competence to drive had gone astray in the
changeover. My certificates (car and motorcycle) had been issued by
Middlesex County Council, which disappeared in 1965, and my
certificates probably were lost either with the demise of MCC or in
the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC. Should I turn
myself in?
If you're saying you don't have a current driving licence, and that you
have driven a motor vehicle recently, then, er, probably yes?
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >> licence. Exactly how this loss was covered by the appropriate authorities
remains unclear.
Why would that matter?
A current full driving licence is presumbly proof
that such a certificate did exist in the past, if the existence of one
was a prerequisite for obtaining a driving licence at the time. And you
don't need such a certificate now. So what offence would you be turning yourself in for?
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:19:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due
to not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming
their state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated
payments (approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with
no online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex
situations or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative
ways to boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP
will accept. They can't use the telephone themselves and be
properly understood. Right now they don't even have a working phone
or landline.
Known previous ID:
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Didn't it say what ID was required?
Two out of three things that they have none of hence they did
nothing.
Current UK Passport or UK Driving License are the two that I can
recall. I tried looking it up on the website but couldn't find the
other one.
Only now that it has reached crisis point have they asked for help.
Can't you call the DWP on the person's behalf? I think the DWP must
be used to having claimants unable to act for themselves, for
whatever reason. I think my sister rang on our brother's behalf; he
lives in Germany and was nervous about dealing with British
beaurocracy.
Possibly as a last resort, but it seems a bit pointless until we have
some way of satisfying the DWP's strict ID requirements. Without them
giving us their NI number (which they have yet to find) and DOB I
don't think we can get anywhere with DWP.
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my
name, NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been
anything else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be
paid, to ask why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you
have neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO
certificates of competence to drive had gone astray in the
changeover. My certificates (car and motorcycle) had been issued by
Middlesex County Council, which disappeared in 1965, and my
certificates probably were lost either with the demise of MCC or in
the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC. Should I turn
myself in?
If you're saying you don't have a current driving licence, and that you >>>> have driven a motor vehicle recently, then, er, probably yes?
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by
one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent
off to obtain a Full licence. Exactly how this loss was covered by
the appropriate authorities remains unclear.
Why would that matter?
It doesnrCOt. Please refer to the qualifying words in my previous posts, such as rCyprobablyrCO and the rCyeither/orrCO combination, together with rCyshouldrCO, rCymay
haverCO, and rCyremains unclearrCO.
A current full driving licence is presumbly proof
that such a certificate did exist in the past, if the existence of one
was a prerequisite for obtaining a driving licence at the time. And you
don't need such a certificate now. So what offence would you be turning
yourself in for?
I gather you donrCOt do whimsy. My apologies.
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
ISTR from about that time there was concern that some driversrCO
certificates of competence to drive had gone astray in the
changeover. My certificates (car and motorcycle) had been issued by >>>>>> Middlesex County Council, which disappeared in 1965, and my
certificates probably were lost either with the demise of MCC or in >>>>>> the subsequent transfer to the newly-formed DVLC. Should I turn
myself in?
If you're saying you don't have a current driving licence, and that you >>>>> have driven a motor vehicle recently, then, er, probably yes?
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by
one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent
off to obtain a Full licence. Exactly how this loss was covered by
the appropriate authorities remains unclear.
Why would that matter?
It doesnrCOt. Please refer to the qualifying words in my previous posts, such
as rCyprobablyrCO and the rCyeither/orrCO combination, together with rCyshouldrCO, rCymay
haverCO, and rCyremains unclearrCO.
The only thing that remains unclear is whatever it is you thought
you were on about.
A current full driving licence is presumbly proof
that such a certificate did exist in the past, if the existence of one
was a prerequisite for obtaining a driving licence at the time. And you
don't need such a certificate now. So what offence would you be turning
yourself in for?
I gather you donrCOt do whimsy. My apologies.
Well, at least that's a new one. Not the usual emergency retrospective
"er... it was a joke!", it's an emergency retrospective "er... it was whimsy!" Like the "joke" excuse though, which often suffers from a lack
of humour in the original statement, the "whimsy" excuse suffers when
the original statement wasn't whimsical but was simply nonsensical.
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full licence.
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >> licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
On 18:48 7 Oct 2025, Martin Brown said:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my
name, NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been
anything else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be
paid, to ask why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you
have neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I wonder if your friend's GP or their local authority's social services department might help in speaking up for who he is. These sometimes
hold an unoffical authority which other organisations can find very acceptable.
To judge from comments about your friend's circumstances, it might be
worth engaging the local social services department as he seems
vulnerable and lacking in capacity to fulfil everyday tasks. You will
know that protecting the vulnerable is a duty placed on the local
authority, even if safeguarding itself is not required. These
departments are overloaded but will get involved if you persist,
perhaps with the support of one of the ward councillors. In fact, his
GP could support the referral.
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >> licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by
one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent
off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling
full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter
?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is
proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of
having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such,
what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
On 08/10/2025 12:36 PM, billy bookcase wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message
news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >>> licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
Possession of a driving licence, whether provisional or full, does not prove that one
has paid sufficient NI contributions - or even any NI contributions at all.
Only interrogation of DWP's records (though I have an idea that HMRC took over that
function some years ago) will provide evidence of any entitlement.
The licence could provide a link to the correct record, though.
It would be even more useful for that if it contained the holder's NI No.
On 08/10/2025 11:30, Nick Odell wrote:
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:19:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to<snip>
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Obviously, asking here is part of the process of finding out what you
need to know and it looks as if you have received useful suggestions
but...
When you say "we" are you working on behalf of a volunteer
organisation (CAB comes to mind)? If it's a big enough organisation
then this situation must have arisen dozens if not hundreds of times
so are there people upstream in the organisation who might have a
tried and tested solution?
No we are a small volunteer group that mostly mend broken things and
help people do unfamiliar more complicated stuff with computers at a
public library. This includes applying for state pensions sometimes and >filling in other near impossible long government application forms.
On 08/10/2025 12:00, Pamela wrote:
To judge from comments about your friend's circumstances, it might be
worth engaging the local social services department as he seems
vulnerable and lacking in capacity to fulfil everyday tasks. You will
know that protecting the vulnerable is a duty placed on the local
authority, even if safeguarding itself is not required. These
departments are overloaded but will get involved if you persist,
perhaps with the support of one of the ward councillors. In fact, his
GP could support the referral.
They say they have a GP but from what we could gather have *never* seen
them in person (trying to find a professional to sign an ID photo). They have apparently seen a practice nurse for annual vaccinations.
They say they have a GP but from what we could gather have *never* seen them in person
(trying to find a professional to sign an ID photo).
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >>> licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too, but at some point in the dim and distant past I
can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your Certificate of Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the context - so clearly, it was important at some point after issue.
On 07/10/2025 14:19, Martin Brown wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to
boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have)
Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother".
Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They
have an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3
months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a
start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving
licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things
up. A driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of
officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID
footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
It would be helpful to know what contact you've had with the DWP and
what they are saying they need. Without that, it's just floundering
about in the dark.
On 18:48 7 Oct 2025, Martin Brown said:
On 07/10/2025 17:30, Peter Johnson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Oct 2025 14:19:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due
to not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming
their state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated
payments (approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with
no online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex
situations or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative
ways to boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP
will accept. They can't use the telephone themselves and be
properly understood. Right now they don't even have a working phone
or landline.
Known previous ID:
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Didn't it say what ID was required?
Two out of three things that they have none of hence they did
nothing.
Current UK Passport or UK Driving License are the two that I can
recall. I tried looking it up on the website but couldn't find the
other one.
Only now that it has reached crisis point have they asked for help.
Can't you call the DWP on the person's behalf? I think the DWP must
be used to having claimants unable to act for themselves, for
whatever reason. I think my sister rang on our brother's behalf; he
lives in Germany and was nervous about dealing with British
beaurocracy.
Possibly as a last resort, but it seems a bit pointless until we have
some way of satisfying the DWP's strict ID requirements. Without them
giving us their NI number (which they have yet to find) and DOB I
don't think we can get anywhere with DWP.
(I made my application on the phone; I might have given them my
name, NI number, bank details, and date of birth. Can't have been
anything else. I'd called, a few months before it was due to be
paid, to ask why I hadn't heard.)
It is easy if you have a passport *and* a drivers license. If you
have neither and have never moved house it is a *lot* more difficult.
I wonder if your friend's GP or their local authority's social services department might help in speaking up for who he is. These sometimes
hold an unoffical authority which other organisations can find very acceptable.
To judge from comments about your friend's circumstances, it might be
worth engaging the local social services department as he seems
vulnerable and lacking in capacity to fulfil everyday tasks. You will
know that protecting the vulnerable is a duty placed on the local
authority, even if safeguarding itself is not required. These
departments are overloaded but will get involved if you persist,
perhaps with the support of one of the ward councillors. In fact, his
GP could support the referral.
On Wed, 08 Oct 2025 10:52:19 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
On 07/10/2025 14:19, Martin Brown wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to
boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have)
Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother".
Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They
have an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3
months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a
start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving
licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things
up. A driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of
officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID
footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
It would be helpful to know what contact you've had with the DWP and
what they are saying they need. Without that, it's just floundering
about in the dark.
Foundering, Flounder is a fish.
On Wed, 08 Oct 2025 10:52:19 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
On 07/10/2025 14:19, Martin Brown wrote:
I'm trying to help someone who has essentially run out of money due to
not being able to satisfy the identity requirements for claiming their
state pension. As I understand it they will get backdated payments
(approx 2 years) when they do finally claim it.
However the big challenge is that they are a reclusive Luddite with no
online capability and a limited ability to deal with complex situations
or express themselves clearly to strangers.
Proof of ID is extremely difficult and I'm looking for creative ways to
boost what little ID they do have to a standard that DWP will accept.
They can't use the telephone themselves and be properly understood.
Right now they don't even have a working phone or landline.
Known previous ID:
Birth certificate (not seen but I know how to obtain a duplicate)
Provisional driving license - ca 1975 (never passed, lost)
NI Number (might have a card, not seen)
NHS number (seen)
University graduation certificate (not seen)
Passport - ca 1990's (long expired - never renewed, might still have)
Disabled persons Car Parking Blue Badge (current, seen)
P60 (annual summary >3 months old, seen)
Letter from DWP inviting them to claim pension (2 years old, seen)
Utility bills & Council Tax are all addressed to "Executors of mother".
Mother died at least a decade ago.
They do get a much reduced workplace pension from a university but I
suspect that all monthly notifications go to an online portal. They
have an annual paper P60 that comes by post but it is more than 3
months old.
We can help them sort the utility bills to be in their name for a
start.
The next candidate would be a Post Office PASScard at -u15.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/pass-card
My initial thoughts then were to apply for a provisional driving
licence online -u24 but I wonder if the previous one will foul things
up. A driver number must have been issued way back.
Finding someone who isn't a relative in the list of people who can sign
ID photos will still be difficult as they are de facto housebound and
have been since before Covid. A handful of their university colleagues
are still in touch so I'm hoping one of them will do it.
This is by far the most extreme case I have ever encountered. I'd be
grateful for any pointers of how to navigate the labyrinthine maze of
officialdom related to proving the ID of someone with virtually no ID
footprint. There are a couple of dormant bank accounts too...
Is there a simpler, faster or cheaper way to do it?
Thanks for any suggestions.
It would be helpful to know what contact you've had with the DWP and
what they are saying they need. Without that, it's just floundering
about in the dark.
Foundering, Flounder is a fish.
I will update the story as we progress in the hope it will make life
easier for others trapped in the no acceptable proof of ID tar pit.
On Wed, 08 Oct 2025 10:52:19 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
It would be helpful to know what contact you've had with the DWP and
what they are saying they need. Without that, it's just floundering
about in the dark.
Foundering, Flounder is a fish.
On 2025-10-08, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 12:00, Pamela wrote:
To judge from comments about your friend's circumstances, it might be
worth engaging the local social services department as he seems
vulnerable and lacking in capacity to fulfil everyday tasks. You will
know that protecting the vulnerable is a duty placed on the local
authority, even if safeguarding itself is not required. These
departments are overloaded but will get involved if you persist,
perhaps with the support of one of the ward councillors. In fact, his
GP could support the referral.
They say they have a GP but from what we could gather have *never* seen
them in person (trying to find a professional to sign an ID photo). They
have apparently seen a practice nurse for annual vaccinations.
I think GPs can't sign ID photos anyway, unless they know the person
in some way unrelated to being a doctor. Dentists are fine though for
some reason.
On 08/10/2025 17:19, Spike wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which >>>> were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full
licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too, but at some point in the dim and distant past I
can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your Certificate of
Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the context - so
clearly, it was important at some point after issue.
I thought this was a reference to the various categories of vehicle that
one might be qualified to drive?
There have been occasions when DVLA have omitted a category or two, when re-issuing a licence.
If the driver has already returned his or her licence to the DVLA (as
they are required to do) they no longer have the proof needed to get
DVLA to correct the error.
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by
one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent
off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling
full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter
?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is
proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of
having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such,
what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
Oh, that's odd, when I asked the exact same question moments ago,
your words were mere whimsy and you had no such thoughts.
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by
one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent
off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling
full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter
?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is
proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of
having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such,
what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
Oh, that's odd, when I asked the exact same question moments ago,
your words were mere whimsy and you had no such thoughts.
Nice snip there. Unfortunately you snipped the part that would have made
your remark redundant. Perhaps yourCOd care to revisit that post and see where you went wrong?
Jon Ribbens wrote:Every 6 or 12 months ...
I think GPs can't sign ID photos anyway, unless they know the person
in some way unrelated to being a doctor. Dentists are fine though for
some reason.
Because they look more closely at their patient's faces, perhaps?
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:10c61pf$1mfrk$2@dont-email.me...
They say they have a GP but from what we could gather have *never* seen them in person
(trying to find a professional to sign an ID photo).
GP's, other than for close friends are precluded from signing passport photos. Which
may
possibly have been at their own instigation, Given many of them see their patients
very rarely - often just failed requests to sign passport photos.
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which
were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full >>> licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too, but at some point in the dim and distant past I
can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your Certificate of Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the context - so clearly, it was important at some point after issue.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 08/10/2025 12:36 PM, billy bookcase wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which >>>> were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full
licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
Possession of a driving licence, whether provisional or full, does not prove that one
has paid sufficient NI contributions - or even any NI contributions at all. >> Only interrogation of DWP's records (though I have an idea that HMRC took over that
function some years ago) will provide evidence of any entitlement.
The licence could provide a link to the correct record, though.
It would be even more useful for that if it contained the holder's NI No.
The question under consideration was not about driving licences; but what possible use could be a certificate of driving competence ever have been to anyone, subsequent to the issue of the relevant licence.
On 08/10/2025 05:19 PM, Spike wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by one or >>>> more official bodies are the certificates of competence to drive, which >>>> were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent off to obtain a Full
licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling full licences
without seeing any certificate, why should that matter ?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is proof that a
certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of having done so,
in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, what further
use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too, but at some point in the dim and distant past I
can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your Certificate of
Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the context - so
clearly, it was important at some point after issue.
It'll be the driving test centre where the test was passed. The
successful candidate is (or used to be) given a copy. When I passed my
test (1972 at Wood Green, North London)
I was given a little piece of
pink paper printed with a pro-forma and the examiner's signature and the date. The form was colloquially known as "the pink slip". It used to
contain the information that it was OK to continue to drive on the
relevant provisional licence until it expired and that the slip could be submitted to the licensing authority (then the GLC for where I was).
I had about five months to go on the provisional, so took advantage of
that.
On 2025-10-09, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by >>>>>> one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to
drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent >>>>>> off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling
full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is
proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of >>>>> having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, >>>>> what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
Oh, that's odd, when I asked the exact same question moments ago,
your words were mere whimsy and you had no such thoughts.
Nice snip there. Unfortunately you snipped the part that would have made
your remark redundant. Perhaps yourCOd care to revisit that post and see
where you went wrong?
The part I snipped makes no difference to my point, which is why
I snipped it.
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-09, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by >>>>>>> one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to >>>>>>> drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent >>>>>>> off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling
full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter?
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is >>>>>> proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of >>>>>> having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, >>>>>> what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
Oh, that's odd, when I asked the exact same question moments ago,
your words were mere whimsy and you had no such thoughts.
Nice snip there. Unfortunately you snipped the part that would have made >>> your remark redundant. Perhaps yourCOd care to revisit that post and see >>> where you went wrong?
The part I snipped makes no difference to my point, which is why
I snipped it.
Unfortunately that doesnrCOt accord with the reality of the situation.
This is because the part you snipped, namely rCLrCa. but at some point in the dim and distant past I can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your Certificate of Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the context - so clearly, it was important at some point after issuerCY completely answers the question raised about the utility of the said certificates.
On 08/10/2025 11:30, Nick Odell wrote:
Nick
(who hasn't driven for 25 years and was planning to let his driving
licence lapse but is now having second thoughts.)
I think it is worth hanging onto. The default assumption is that
everyone has one (much like smartphones and fast internet).
I thought renewing a driving licence had been made harder for old gits
and gitettes like me but it hasn't. Fewer than half a dozen black
On 2025-10-10, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-09, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-10-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote in message
news:mkmsfrFstq3U1@mid.individual.net...
I do have a current driving licence, but what may have been lost by >>>>>>>> one or more official bodies are the certificates of competence to >>>>>>>> drive, which were awarded on passing the driving test and then sent >>>>>>>> off to obtain a Full licence.
But unless the people issuing the licences were bent, and selling >>>>>>> full licences without seeing any certificate, why should that matter? >>
Surely, the very fact that you were issued with a full licence, is >>>>>>> proof that a certificate was issued in your name ?
While presumably the people issuing driving licences kept records of >>>>>>> having done so, in the event of anyone needing a replacement.
So that after a licence had first been issued, and recorded as such, >>>>>>> what further use were the certificates to anyone ?
That was my thought too,
Oh, that's odd, when I asked the exact same question moments ago,
your words were mere whimsy and you had no such thoughts.
Nice snip there. Unfortunately you snipped the part that would have made >>>> your remark redundant. Perhaps yourCOd care to revisit that post and see >>>> where you went wrong?
The part I snipped makes no difference to my point, which is why
I snipped it.
Unfortunately that doesnrCOt accord with the reality of the situation.
This is because the part you snipped, namely rCLrCa. but at some point in the
dim and distant past I can remember answering the question rCLWho holds your >> Certificate of Competence to Drive?rCY, although I canrCOt now recall the
context - so clearly, it was important at some point after issuerCY
completely answers the question raised about the utility of the said
certificates.
Yes. Which is why I said the sentence above beginning "Oh, that's odd..."
Christ you don't half make hard work of the simplest of things, digging yourself into ever-deeper holes rather than just being straightforward.