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I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has been
dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has >been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused
of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation >Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in >November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney >general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by section >127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or >before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no >jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury Festival >in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they would be
taking no further action.
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused
of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or
before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused
of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused
of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation
Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court
after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or
before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no
jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation
Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or
before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no
jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/117
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You haven't said why are you glad?
1. You're friendly with this KR fellow, so you're pleased he won't now
be tried for this particular offence?
2. You think this is a positive blow for civil liberties? In that case,
I disagree. It's a simple fuck-up, and they won't make that mistake
again. The next case will be dealt with meticulously.
3. You disagree with the whole principle of proscribing organisations, perhaps?
4. You're a big fan of Hamas, perhaps? (Careful how you answer that one!)
5. You don't think that waving flags is the same as supporting an organisation?
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation
Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find >>>> that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking >>>> the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or >>>> before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no
jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >>> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
Without any evidence, he's suggesting it was deliberately bungled by the CPS.
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation
Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find >>> that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking >>> the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or
before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no
jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/117--
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper
has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation
Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find
that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking
the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or
before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no
jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they
would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/117
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper >>>> has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation >>>> Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in
November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought.
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find >>>> that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking >>>> the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney
general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or >>>> before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no >>>> jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they >>>> would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >>> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
No-one is saying otherwise. ItrCOs how that came about thatrCOs important here.
Perhaps it became invalid because someone filed the case in a locked
cabinet in a basement room that had a Beware of the Lion notice on the
door.
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky situation?
On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:22:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky situation?
i am reminded of the death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of the Met
Police, and how the CPS "forgot" that a common assault charge has to be
laid within six month, thus ensuring there was never any danger of the
police having to answer for their criminal action. Because the lame-arsed "alternative" was to try for a manslaughter charge.
Also this whole "6 months" thing is a complete crock. It's not an
immutable law of nature. Merely something invented by man, and so easily amended by man. Unlike trying to pass a law saying "gravity is abolished".
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper >>>>> has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
From the Times:
The singer, who performs under the stage name Mo Chara, had been accused >>>>> of displaying a flag in support of the proscribed terror organisation >>>>> Hezbollah at a gig at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, north London, in >>>>> November last year.
It was dismissed by the chief magistrate sitting at Woolwich crown court >>>>> after a technical error in the way the charge against him was brought. >>>>
In his judgment, Paul Goldspring, the chief magistrate, said: rCLI find >>>>> that these proceedings were not instituted in the correct form, lacking >>>>> the necessary DPP [director of public prosecutions] and AG [attorney >>>>> general] consent within the six-month statutory time limit set by
section 127.
rCLThe time limit requires consent to have been granted at the time or >>>>> before the issue of the requisition.
rCLConsequently the charge is unlawful and null and this court has no >>>>> jurisdiction to try the charge.rCY
The band were also investigated over their set at the Glastonbury
Festival in June, but Avon and Somerset police said in July that they >>>>> would be taking no further action.
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This version is >>>> the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, following rapidly on
the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
No-one is saying otherwise. ItrCOs how that came about thatrCOs important here.
Perhaps it became invalid because someone filed the case in a locked
cabinet in a basement room that had a Beware of the Lion notice on the
door.
Ok... so in what sense is it a "wheeze"?
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has >>> been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to see
how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if the charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:22:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky situation?
i am reminded of the death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of the Met
Police, and how the CPS "forgot" that a common assault charge has to be
laid within six month, thus ensuring there was never any danger of the
police having to answer for their criminal action. Because the lame-arsed "alternative" was to try for a manslaughter charge.
Also this whole "6 months" thing is a complete crock. It's not an
immutable law of nature. Merely something invented by man, and so easily amended by man. Unlike trying to pass a law saying "gravity is abolished".
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This
version is the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, >>>>> following rapidly on the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy
excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
No-one is saying otherwise. ItrCOs how that came about thatrCOs
important here.
Perhaps it became invalid because someone filed the case in a locked
cabinet in a basement room that had a Beware of the Lion notice on the
door.
Ok... so in what sense is it a "wheeze"?
In the sense that itrCOs a convenient way of not proceeding with a case,
that gets everyone off the hook.
Such delays are not uncommon, these recent figures are from Scotland:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has >>>> been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to see
how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if the >> charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere. It
is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
On 27 Sep 2025 at 11:02:56 BST, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There are intermediate categories between "illegal" and "fine".
On 27/09/2025 10:03 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:22:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky
situation?
i am reminded of the death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of the Met
Police, and how the CPS "forgot" that a common assault charge has to be
laid within six month, thus ensuring there was never any danger of the
police having to answer for their criminal action. Because the
lame-arsed "alternative" was to try for a manslaughter charge.
Also this whole "6 months" thing is a complete crock. It's not an
immutable law of nature. Merely something invented by man, and so
easily amended by man. Unlike trying to pass a law saying "gravity is
abolished".
The rule mainly applies to minor offences.
It's only fair that things like breaking an (arbitrary!) speed limit or waiting on a double red line should not be allowed to hang over one for
years on end (perhaps waiting until the offender has just started a
driving job).
People should know where they stand and not be left guessing and
worrying. For major offences, of course, that does not apply as
strongly. But even then, natural justice, and the need for defendants to
be able to gather and organise their own defence while an incident is
not years old, are important considerations.
On 27/09/2025 10:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:22:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky
situation?
i am reminded of the death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of the Met
Police, and how the CPS "forgot" that a common assault charge has to be
laid within six month, thus ensuring there was never any danger of the
police having to answer for their criminal action. Because the
lame-arsed "alternative" was to try for a manslaughter charge.
Also this whole "6 months" thing is a complete crock. It's not an
immutable law of nature. Merely something invented by man, and so
easily amended by man. Unlike trying to pass a law saying "gravity is
abolished".
I disagree. I would prefer the time-limit to be reduced so not leave
people in limbo and in some cases causing depression and other mental
health issues. And in many cases time off work as a consequence.
Also happy for the time limit for a full trial to be 6 months or a year
in some cases.
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 13:25:46 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Sep 2025 at 11:02:56 BST, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There are intermediate categories between "illegal" and "fine".
Legality is a binary state. Something is either legal. Or it isn't.
On 27 Sep 2025 at 16:39:46 BST, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 13:25:46 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Sep 2025 at 11:02:56 BST, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There are intermediate categories between "illegal" and "fine".
Legality is a binary state. Something is either legal. Or it isn't.
True but blindingly irrelevant. Actions can be discourteous and
objectionable without being illegal. Indeed, they very often are. And
that is not "fine".
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 15:50:33 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Sep 2025 at 16:39:46 BST, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 13:25:46 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Sep 2025 at 11:02:56 BST, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There are intermediate categories between "illegal" and "fine".
Legality is a binary state. Something is either legal. Or it isn't.
True but blindingly irrelevant. Actions can be discourteous and
objectionable without being illegal. Indeed, they very often are. And
that is not "fine".
So police can arrest you for a "not fine" behaviour no matter how legal ?
There's a word for that.
On 2025-09-27, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-09-26, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Sounds like another tier of our multilayered legal system. This
version is the well-known rCycharge after the expiry timerCy wheeze, >>>>>> following rapidly on the heels of rCydefending onerCys religionrCy >>>>>> excuse to knife crime.
In what sense is it a "wheeze"? The law is quite clear and the
prosecution was invalid.
No-one is saying otherwise. ItrCOs how that came about thatrCOs
important here.
Perhaps it became invalid because someone filed the case in a locked
cabinet in a basement room that had a Beware of the Lion notice on the >>>> door.
Ok... so in what sense is it a "wheeze"?
In the sense that itrCOs a convenient way of not proceeding with a case,
that gets everyone off the hook.
My post from yesterday at 6.42pm answers that point.
Such delays are not uncommon, these recent figures are from Scotland:
Yes, the legal system is underfunded, and huge, unacceptable delays are common. Do you have any evidence that the delays are a deliberate tactic rather than an inevitable result of the Tory destruction of the country?
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 12:20:31 +0100, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/09/2025 10:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:22:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/09/2025 16:51, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
But was it incompetence or a clever way out of a very tricky
situation?
i am reminded of the death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of the Met
Police, and how the CPS "forgot" that a common assault charge has to be
laid within six month, thus ensuring there was never any danger of the
police having to answer for their criminal action. Because the
lame-arsed "alternative" was to try for a manslaughter charge.
Also this whole "6 months" thing is a complete crock. It's not an
immutable law of nature. Merely something invented by man, and so
easily amended by man. Unlike trying to pass a law saying "gravity is
abolished".
I disagree. I would prefer the time-limit to be reduced so not leave
people in limbo and in some cases causing depression and other mental
health issues. And in many cases time off work as a consequence.
Also happy for the time limit for a full trial to be 6 months or a year
in some cases.
I agree with you. I was merely pointing out that limply parroting "6
months" as a reason for failing to prosecute doesn't cut it with the
mildest degree of critical thinking.
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap
rapper has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that
reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good
to see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more
worrying if the charge had been something more serious like murder or
rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses
everywhere.-a It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has
been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to see
how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if the
charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere.-a It
is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
On 27/09/2025 15:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap
rapper has been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for
that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's
good to see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be
more worrying if the charge had been something more serious like
murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses
everywhere.-a It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
St Andrew's, though I do have a love of Ireland and a reasonable amount
of Irish DNA.
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
On 28/09/2025 10:55, kat wrote:
On 27/09/2025 15:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has
been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to
see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if
the charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere.
It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
St Andrew's, though I do have a love of Ireland and a reasonable amount of >> Irish DNA.
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
On 28/09/2025 17:28, Max Demian wrote:
On 28/09/2025 10:55, kat wrote:
On 27/09/2025 15:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has
been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to
see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if
the charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere.
It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
St Andrew's, though I do have a love of Ireland and a reasonable amount of >>> Irish DNA.
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag. Scotland, England, and Wales are all part of the UK so have two. And what NI does I haven't a clue.
Why would they prosecute him at all if they didn't want to convict him?
I imagine the only reason anyone's heard of his alleged flag-waving is because of the prosecution. There would have been no downside to simply
not prosecuting him.
Plus, if they wanted to *pretend* to be incompetent then surely they'd
just prosecute a day late, that way the blame would lie at the door of
some anonymous CPS lawyer, rather than what they actually did which was
to prosecute in time but fail to get the necessary permissions until too late, which involves extremely senior government figures in the blame.
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
kat <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 28/09/2025 17:28, Max Demian wrote:
On 28/09/2025 10:55, kat wrote:
On 27/09/2025 15:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has
been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to
see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if
the charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere.
It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
St Andrew's, though I do have a love of Ireland and a reasonable amount of
Irish DNA.
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag. Scotland,
England, and Wales are all part of the UK so have two. And what NI does I >> haven't a clue.
I have not seen the St DavidrCOs cross flown often in Wales but we could claim it as a third flag.
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
kat <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 28/09/2025 17:28, Max Demian wrote:
On 28/09/2025 10:55, kat wrote:
On 27/09/2025 15:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/09/2025 11:02, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 18:43, The Todal wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:43, kat wrote:
On 26/09/2025 11:29, The Todal wrote:
I am glad to see that the terrorism charge against the Kneecap rapper has
been dropped, due to the prosecutor's incompetence.
You might be glad to see the charge dropped, but why be glad for that reason?
It was an unnecessary attempt to stifle free expression, and it's good to
see how incompetent the prosecution can be, which would be more worrying if
the charge had been something more serious like murder or rape.
Ah, so flags are fine, and we can all hang St George's Crosses everywhere.
It is free expression.
Not that I do, mine has been a Saltire.
St Andrew's or St Patrick's?
St Andrew's, though I do have a love of Ireland and a reasonable amount of >>>> Irish DNA.
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag. Scotland,
England, and Wales are all part of the UK so have two. And what NI does I >> haven't a clue.
I have not seen the St DavidrCOs cross flown often in Wales but we could claim it as a third flag.
On 29/09/2025 16:14, Simon Simple wrote:
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
They just call it "Ireland", or "Eire" which is Gaelic for Ireland, as
they like to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist.
On 29/09/2025 16:14, Simon Simple wrote:
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
They just call it "Ireland", or "Eire" which is Gaelic for Ireland, as
they like to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist.
Anyone who speaks of "The North of Ireland", "The North", or "The Six Counties" is a terrorist. (I heard one just the other day on the radio.)
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:10bbnmp$2fcvb$2@dont-email.me...
Most of the Irish seem to have abandoned St Patrick's saltire. What do they have
against St Patrick?
Nothing. But the Order of St Patrick, from which the Saltire derives, was founded during the reign of George III to reward British (Protestant) politicians, administrators, and soldiers etc. for their efforts in repressing
and suppressing the native (Catholic) Irish.
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
On 29/09/2025 06:42 pm, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/09/2025 16:14, Simon Simple wrote:
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
They just call it "Ireland", or "Eire" which is Gaelic for Ireland, as they like to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist.
"Ireland" is the official name of the state in English.
"Eire" is only the name of the state in Irish.
Using "Eire" in English is regarded as a cultured insult by avoiding recognition
of the name of the state in English.
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself)
know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
On 29/09/2025 06:42 pm, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/09/2025 16:14, Simon Simple wrote:
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
They just call it "Ireland", or "Eire" which is Gaelic for Ireland, as they like to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist.
"Ireland" is the official name of the state in English.
"Eire" is only the name of the state in Irish.
Using "Eire" in English is regarded as a cultured insult by avoiding recognition of the name of the state in English.
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
Anyone who speaks of "The North of Ireland", "The North", or "The Six Counties" is a terrorist. (I heard one just the other day on the radio.)
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as
myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
On 30/09/2025 11:49 am, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as
myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
-a-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
Very good.
I expect that Finnigan has an Irish spelling too (Nugent doesn't).
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
On 29/09/2025 06:42 pm, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/09/2025 16:14, Simon Simple wrote:
On 29/09/2025 11:18, kat wrote:
<snip>>
( Southern) Ireland is a separate country, with its own flag.No such country as Southern Ireland!
They just call it "Ireland", or "Eire" which is Gaelic for Ireland, as >> -a> they like to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist.
"Ireland" is the official name of the state in English.
"Eire" is only the name of the state in Irish.
Using "Eire" in English is regarded as a cultured insult by avoiding
recognition of the name of the state in English.
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as
myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
Anyone who speaks of "The North of Ireland", "The North", or "The Sixradio.)
Counties" is a terrorist. (I heard one just the other day on the
And of course the language is called 'Irish', not Gaelic.
In Irish ('as
Gaeilge', pronounced 'oss gale-guh') it's just 'Gaeilge'.
(SWMBO is of the Hibernian persuasion, it's all just Mahogany Gaspipe to me.)
On 30/09/2025 12:28, JNugent wrote:
On 30/09/2025 11:49 am, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such
as myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that
language?
-a-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
Very good.
I expect that Finnigan has an Irish spelling too (Nugent doesn't).
-aI expect it has a wide variety of spellings, rarely |o Fionnag|iin
(the de Nogents not being natives of Ireland)
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself) know
any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
Aisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
"Nick Finnigan" <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote in message news:10bgcka$3gec2$1@dont-email.me...
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself) know
any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
Aisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
And their pronunciation ?
There are already plenty of Shauns. Can Neems and Saucers be far behind ?
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself)
know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message news:mk24e2Fdnf3U1@mid.individual.net...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
"Nick Finnigan" <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote in message news:10bgcka$3gec2$1@dont-email.me...
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as myself) know
any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language?
Aisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
And their pronunciation ?
There are already plenty of Shauns. Can Neems and Saucers be far behind ?
On 01/10/2025 12:01 am, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message
news:mk24e2Fdnf3U1@mid.individual.net...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
Yes.
[Oh, and "involved" should, of course, have been "evolved".]
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
Gerraway!>
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up
taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
Yes, that sounds accurate enough.
On 30/09/2025 11:49, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such
as myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that
language?
-a-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
You left out my picks, Siobhan and Roisin.
Or, a friend of a daughter has sons born and raised in Englland called
Tihg and Fion.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message news:mk24e2Fdnf3U1@mid.individual.net...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message
news:mk24e2Fdnf3U1@mid.individual.net...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de >>> Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were
the first to do so.>
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up
taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
Did it have the meaning "Bastard of..." right from the beginning, or did
that come later?>
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
I, and most other people, had already done so.
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message
news:mk24e2Fdnf3U1@mid.individual.net...
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) or "de Nogent", it
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were the first to do
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up
taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
Did it have the meaning "Bastard of..." right from the beginning, or did that come
later?>
On 01/10/2025 11:29, kat wrote:
On 30/09/2025 11:49, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as >>>> myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language? >>>-a-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
You left out my picks, Siobhan and Roisin.
Or, a friend of a daughter has sons born and raised in Englland called
Tihg and Fion.
There are some awkward fuckers about.
On 01/10/2025 11:29, kat wrote:
On 30/09/2025 11:49, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 29/09/2025 20:34, JNugent wrote:
And after all, how many English people (even of Irish descent, such as >>>> myself) know any Irish other than the name of Ireland in that language? >>>-a-aAisling, Ciaran, Niamh, Saoirse, Sean, Sinead ...
You left out my picks, Siobhan and Roisin.
Or, a friend of a daughter has sons born and raised in Englland called Tihg >> and Fion.
There are some awkward fuckers about.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:name) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 12:01 am, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
Yes.
No !!!!! See below.
[Oh, and "involved" should, of course, have been "evolved".]
"Involved", "evolved", "revolved", "devolved" ; what's the difference ? They're
all equally wrong.
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
Gerraway!
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up >>> taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
Yes, that sounds accurate enough.
So just to be clear.
The name did *not* evolve *before* the (Norman) Invasion of Ireland; as you claimed
above..
Given that its it's *Anglo-Irish*
i.e they needed to have actually invaded Ireland, first.
Wheraes if they hadn't and remained in France they'd still have been called De Nogent.
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrotename) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off
the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were the first to do
so.
The Vikings never invaded anywhere. All they ever did was launch coastal raids from their longships. But they never moved inland, as they never sought political control.
What they did instead, was demand protection money
from whoever was in charge, As with the Danegeld in England.
They were "old style" gangsters, IOW.
Again as in England all the large (for those days) Viking settlements
on coasts or rivers were never centres of political control. They were
simply staging posts for raids.
As to the Celts, who originated in Central Europe. The conventional wisdom anyway, is that for whatever reason they were driven to the periphery
of Western Europe by more successful rivals. So that rather than invading Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Scotland, or Ireland, they were simply driven there.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster
who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up >>> taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
Did it have the meaning "Bastard of..." right from the beginning, or did that come
later?>
Only for the offspring of Charles II, the FitzRoys *
And for William IV the FitzClarences; I believe
Otherwise It just meant "son of".
The Fitzgeralds for instance, originating from Gerald of Windsor, were at one time
the largest landowners in Ireland and at one stage were regarded as "more Irish
than the Irish" themselves so successful were they at integrating. With the Celtic aristocracy (the ones with the smart brooches) at least.
Most of which wealth was subsequently lost as result of their consorting with various
Catholic monarchs in post reformation Europe, planning invasions, and fomenting
rebellions including 1798.
* Rather fittingly Fitzrovia the area around Fitzroy Square a.k.a. "Soho North"
long had a reputation as a haunt of bohemians, artists, drunken artists etc.
On 01/10/2025 10:59 pm, billy bookcase wrote:
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrotename) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off >>>> the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were the first to
do
so.
The Vikings never invaded anywhere. All they ever did was launch coastal
raids from their longships. But they never moved inland, as they never sought
political control.
So they never got as far as York for long enough to change its name to "Jorvik"?
Or as far west as Lancashire? Were the Viking placenames in the County Palatine
invented as a joke by the Celtic and Saxon inhabitants?
And "Dublin" is not a Viking placename? And the Norsemen never settled there or in
Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Wexford?
Who knew?
What they did instead, was demand protection money
from whoever was in charge, As with the Danegeld in England.
How did they do that without being on the spot?
They were "old style" gangsters, IOW.
Again as in England all the large (for those days) Viking settlements
on coasts or rivers were never centres of political control. They were
simply staging posts for raids.
On 01/10/2025 12:45 pm, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:name) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 12:01 am, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
Yes.
No !!!!! See below.
So emphatic. >
[Oh, and "involved" should, of course, have been "evolved".]
"Involved", "evolved", "revolved", "devolved" ; what's the difference ? They're
all equally wrong.
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
Gerraway!
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off >>>> the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster >>>> who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run
your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up >>>> taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything
is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
Yes, that sounds accurate enough.
So just to be clear.
The name did *not* evolve *before* the (Norman) Invasion of Ireland; as you claimed
above..
Given that its it's *Anglo-Irish*
i.e they needed to have actually invaded Ireland, first.
Wheraes if they hadn't and remained in France they'd still have been called >> De Nogent.
It would be interesting to know where you got the information you present there.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 01/10/2025 10:59 pm, billy bookcase wrote:
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place name) >>>>>>> or "de Nogent", it had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off >>>>> the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were the first to
do so.
The Vikings never invaded anywhere. All they ever did was launch coastal >>> raids from their longships. But they never moved inland, as they never sought
political control.
So they never got as far as York for long enough to change its name to "Jorvik"?
Yes. As I said, they formed settlements on tne coast or on rivers. In this instance they sailed up the river Ouse as far as York; and then began terrorising, raping, and pillaging the local natives; until eventually
they all ran off..
Or as far west as Lancashire? Were the Viking placenames in the County Palatine
invented as a joke by the Celtic and Saxon inhabitants?
Which are all next to big rivers, or the sea.
I could have sworn someone said (upthread) that they didn't.
And "Dublin" is not a Viking placename? And the Norsemen never settled there or in
Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Wexford?
See above. Limerick being on the Shannon.
Who knew?
That to "invade" somewhere its just best to just stick to places near to the coast
or big rivers ?
Indeed. Who knew ?
Your Norman ancestors were part Viking of course. But as with everywhers else they just settled on the Coast of what became Normandy; and terrorised the natives
from there. You then intermingled with the native French type people, turned Christian, gave yourselves French sounding names, became Norman, and later started building castles, churches with Norman Arches etc etc.
It was also when you got the idea of proper "invasions", rather than just piecemeal raids
So you started seriously invading places in co-ordinated operations, with the
intention of immediately marching inland and terrorising and killing off the natives as you went; rather than just stopping by the coast or rivers and just threatening them, from there.
What they did instead, was demand protection money
from whoever was in charge, As with the Danegeld in England.
How did they do that without being on the spot?
They "were" on the spot,
Perhaps if you read to the bottom of posts, first ?
They were "old style" gangsters, IOW.
Again as in England all the large (for those days) Viking settlements
on coasts or rivers were never centres of political control. They were
simply staging posts for raids.
Rather than sail back and forth from Scandinavia each time, they worked
out that if they could find harbours to park and repair their longships
they could form settlements, and launch their raids from there.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message news:mk7poeFcf7eU1@mid.individual.net...
On 01/10/2025 10:59 pm, billy bookcase wrote:
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrotename) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 00:01, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off >>>>> the whole thing.
The pre-Normans (aka Vikings) invaded Ireland, but I doubt if they were the first to
do
so.
The Vikings never invaded anywhere. All they ever did was launch coastal >>> raids from their longships. But they never moved inland, as they never sought
political control.
So they never got as far as York for long enough to change its name to "Jorvik"?
Yes. As I said, they formed settlements on tne coast or on rivers. In this instance they sailed up the river Ouse as far as York; and then began terrorising, raping, and pillaging the local natives; until eventually
they all ran off..
Or as far west as Lancashire? Were the Viking placenames in the County Palatine
invented as a joke by the Celtic and Saxon inhabitants?
Which are all next to big rivers, or the sea.
And "Dublin" is not a Viking placename? And the Norsemen never settled there or in
Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Wexford?
See above. Limerick being on the Shannon.
Who knew?
That to "invade" somewhere its just best to just stick to places near to the coast
or big rivers ?
Indeed. Who knew ?
Your Norman ancestors were part Viking of course. But as with everywhers else they just settled on the Coast of what became Normandy; and terrorised the natives
from there. You then intermingled with the native French type people, turned Christian, gave yourselves French sounding names, became Norman, and later started building castles, churches with Norman Arches etc etc.
It was also when you got the idea of proper "invasions", rather than just piecemeal raids
So you started seriously invading places in co-ordinated operations, with the
intention of immediately marching inland and terrorising and killing off the natives as you went; rather than just stopping by the coast or rivers and just threatening them, from there.
What they did instead, was demand protection money
from whoever was in charge, As with the Danegeld in England.
How did they do that without being on the spot?
They "were" on the spot,
Perhaps if you read to the bottom of posts, first ?
They were "old style" gangsters, IOW.
Again as in England all the large (for those days) Viking settlements
on coasts or rivers were never centres of political control. They were
simply staging posts for raids.
Rather than sail back and forth from Scandinavia each time, they worked
out that if they could find harbours to park and repair their longships
they could form settlements, and launch their raids from there.
snip
bb
But this wasn't an invasion, even though the Danelaw was pretty nearly half of England
and stretched from the Essex side of the Thames to north of the present Scottish border
and took in the Fylde coast (inc the places where St Annes, Blackpool, Cleveleys,
Morecambe and Lancaster are now located)?
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote in message news:mk7pa9Fcc85U1@mid.individual.net...
On 01/10/2025 12:45 pm, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:name) or "de Nogent", it
On 01/10/2025 12:01 am, billy bookcase wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Whilst the name certainly was originally "Nogent" (the place
had involved into Nugent before the invasion of Ireland.
Eh ? Before the invasion of Ireland ?
Yes.
No !!!!! See below.
So emphatic. >
[Oh, and "involved" should, of course, have been "evolved".]
"Involved", "evolved", "revolved", "devolved" ; what's the difference ? They're
all equally wrong.
De Nogent is a Norman name; derived from a village in France
Gerraway!
It was the Normans who actually first invaded Ireland; and started off >>>>> the whole thing.
Even if it was at the behest of Dermot McMurrough, the King Of Leinster >>>>> who had been deposed by the High King, who at that time was King of
Connaught.
Anyway, basically it was like inviting in the Kray Twins, to help run >>>>> your club.
Your Norman De Nogent ancestors were basically a bunch of gangsters
brought in to help Dermot McMurrough, in his war with the King of
Connaught.
Only just like the Kray Twins, the Normans refused to leave; but ended up >>>>> taking over the whole show; for the benefit of their fellow Normans
back in England.
Although its not just De Nogents. Anyone with the name Fitz anything >>>>> is descended from Norman gangsters as well.
And not forgetting Chris de Burgh.
Yes, that sounds accurate enough.
So just to be clear.
The name did *not* evolve *before* the (Norman) Invasion of Ireland; as you claimed
above..
Given that its it's *Anglo-Irish*
i.e they needed to have actually invaded Ireland, first.
Wheraes if they hadn't and remained in France they'd still have been called >>> De Nogent.
It would be interesting to know where you got the information you present there.
There really is no pleasing some people, is there ?
You're also part Viking, BTW. (See other post)
If you paid +U100 and sent off a blood sample for DNA "analysis" with the name
"Nugent" on the form, what's the betting they'd have told you were part descended
from Normans and Vikings ?
And you'd have gone round telling everyone, wouldn't you ?
Get it all for free on UseNet, and what thanks do people get ?
I think you're missing a very large part of Viking history.
It may come as a surprise to find that many Western historians have maintained the first rulers of what is now Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus were Scandinavians. Viking chiefs became rulers of Slavic cities like Novgorod and Kiev. The Slavs were often their subjects.
