From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y



How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to
be drawn off.


In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run kitchen
hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you see so many supermarkets selling refills.

They also sell butane for outdoor use - caravans, motorhomes etc.

In terms of energy output, butane is higher. However, this is offset by the vapourisation issue.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is >> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to be drawn off.

In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run kitchen hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you see so many supermarkets selling refills.

How expensive are butane and propane in cylinders in France compared
with here?

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we
lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

I suppose if one uses oil for central heating and hot water, and only
uses bottled gas where oil is not a substitute (eg a gas cooker) then
the cost is less.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is >> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to be drawn off.

In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run kitchen hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you see so many supermarkets selling refills.

How expensive are butane and propane in cylinders in France compared
with here?

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we
lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

I suppose if one uses oil for central heating and hot water, and only
uses bottled gas where oil is not a substitute (eg a gas cooker) then
the cost is less.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

No, From memory of caravanning around 60 years ago ,and conversations on Spanish Facebook groups it starts to fail around +4C. Whilst the boiling
point is lower the problem is that as the liquid gas vaporises it cools
due to the fact it is the higher energy molecules that escape as gas,
leaving lower energy molecules in the cylinder, so the temperature is
lower. So if the air temp is +4, whilst the butane starts at +4 it cools
until it stops working.

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

It works down to much lower temperatures. I think the "calories per kg"
is a little higher for butane, but I may be wrong.

Dave
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Thu, 8/21/2025 5:22 PM, David Wade wrote:

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

No, From memory of caravanning around 60 years ago ,and conversations on Spanish Facebook groups it starts to fail around +4C. Whilst the boiling point is lower the problem is that as the liquid gas vaporises it cools due to the fact it is the higher energy molecules that escape as gas, leaving lower energy molecules in the cylinder, so the temperature is lower. So if the air temp is +4, whilst the butane starts at +4 it cools until it stops working.

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc.-a Is >> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

It works down to much lower temperatures. I think the "calories per kg" is a little higher for butane, but I may be wrong.

Dave

In this sentence, you can see what makes the butane work
at low ambient.

"i've ran my jetboil at 10 degrees I held the canister
in my hands to keep it chugging worked pretty well...
out of curiosity i set it down and the flame died rapidly"

The heat from his hand, was helping to boil the butane
and provide vapour for the job.

As the ambient gets lower and lower, the heat loss from
the tank surface, exceeds the heat input from a hand
laid onto the cylinder. Sticking a hand on the side of the
tank, to maintain a vapour flow, is only going to work
at moderately cold temperatures. It wouldn't work
in Antarctic winter, to use your hand.

You sometimes see reference to these, in arctic adventure stories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamine_fuel_tablet

Paul


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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

A lot depends on how quickly you want it. For most practical purposes for
a caravan or motorhome cooking/heating the off-gassing diminishes greatly
as you near 4-#C.

We made the mistake of using butane in our caravan many years ago early in
the spring and had to bring the bottle into the van and heat with with a
hair dryer (fortunately we had some mains power) to get it to work.

Butane has a higher calorific value and the cylinders are cheaper in terms
of -u/kg of gas so you do get more rCLbangs for your buckrCY but werCOve had issues with newer van appliances running poorly on butane compared to
propane so werCOve just ceased buying it.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

Butane becomes difficult, when in temperatures below around 5C. There is
no precise temperature, because it's usuability, depends on the internal temperature of the gas. It might be 5C ambient, but making use of the
gas, evaporation, cools the contents down, and can cool it below the
point of it being able to evaporate. To evaporate the gas, from the
liquid state, it need to draw heat from outside the bottle.

So what can happen is you begin using it just fine at 5C, then the
pressure simply dives.

Propane, is the stuff to use year round. Notice the frost appearing on
the red bottles, when the contents is being used - it shows the liquid
level.
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 22:11, NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we
lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

The cheapest way to buy gas, is in a bulk delivery, into a fixed tank,
from a tanker. Or from a filling station, which supplies gas for gas
powered vehicles, to a refillable container such as Gaslow. Last I
heard, around 54p per litre.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 23:41, Tim+ wrote:

Butane has a higher calorific value and the cylinders are cheaper in terms
of -u/kg of gas so you do get more rCLbangs for your buckrCY but werCOve had issues with newer van appliances running poorly on butane compared to
propane so werCOve just ceased buying it.

They used to supply two different setting of pressure for the two gases,
but now they have compromised on a pressure between the two. Modern
caravan appliances seem to perform just fine on the compromise pressure.

I buy propane year round, for the caravan, so it is guaranteed to work
in the cold mornings of early spring and late autumn.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21 Aug 2025 22:41:53 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

We made the mistake of using butane in our caravan many years ago early in >the spring and had to bring the bottle into the van and heat with with a
hair dryer (fortunately we had some mains power) to get it to work.

The classic trick is to take a butane cylinder and set it on the steadily diminishing flame of the butane burner.

Or take the big propane torch, blowing out many pounds of propane an hour, and fire it at the cylinder to heat it, with the propane level clearly visible as a layer of water ice on the outside of the bottle.

What could *possibly* go wrong?


Thomas Prufer
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

Butane boils at 0 -#C & propane at minus 42 -#C.
--
Regards
wasbit
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:

NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the

village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for
central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil.
When we lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week
or so in winter.

The cheapest way to buy gas, is in a bulk delivery, into a fixed tank,
from a tanker. Or from a filling station, which supplies gas for gas
powered vehicles, to a refillable container such as Gaslow. Last I
heard, around 54p per litre.

They seem to max-out at 11kg cylinders, sounds like daily refill trips compared to weekly dual 47kg cylinders?

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is >>> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your >>> buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are >> usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to >> be drawn off.


In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run kitchen
hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you see so many
supermarkets selling refills.

How expensive are butane and propane in cylinders in France compared
with here?

Last time we bought a fill up*, the difference on 6kg was probably about
-u5.


* We had a motorhome at the time which had space for 2 cylinders. In
Europe, I used to carry a UK one and a French Le Cube. The latter was only
used one trips to Europe, so tended to last a two seasons at least. We now have one with a refillable tank. Even here, that is FAR cheaper. Our tank
holds 20 litre*, near enough 10 kg. Last time I topped it up - a couple of weeks back locally- it cost 99p / litre. Say -u20 to fill it. Last time I bought a 6kg Calor refill, it was about -u32.

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we
lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

I suppose if one uses oil for central heating and hot water, and only
uses bottled gas where oil is not a substitute (eg a gas cooker) then
the cost is less.

You can get legally refillable cylinders but they tend to be smaller. I
think 11 kg is the largest.
You refill them at Garages selling LPG for cars. The cylinders arenrCOt
cheap but, if you use a lot of gas, you can recover the cost.



We first encountered French gas cylinders when we used to rent Gites. They usually had cylinders which were about 15kg size, in some cases tucked
under the bench. I then bought a Le Cube when we started touring France etc
in our Motorhome.


* it is a 25 litre tank but they have a valve limiting to contents to 80%.



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:

NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the

village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for
central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil.
When we lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week
or so in winter.

The cheapest way to buy gas, is in a bulk delivery, into a fixed tank,
from a tanker. Or from a filling station, which supplies gas for gas
powered vehicles, to a refillable container such as Gaslow. Last I
heard, around 54p per litre.

They seem to max-out at 11kg cylinders, sounds like daily refill trips compared to weekly dual 47kg cylinders?

The rCyportablerCO cylinders do but you can have a large, fixed tank installed.
It is this kind of fixed tank Harry means.

These fixed tanks are more akin to the large oil tanks people have for oil heating systems. You sometimes see them in the country.

The Gaslow type do, as you say, top out at 11kg.

Our MH has a fixed tank which holds 20 litres, 10kg near enough. I topped
it up a couple of weeks back at Morrisons 99p / litre.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:

* We had a motorhome at the time which had space for 2 cylinders. In
Europe, I used to carry a UK one and a French Le Cube. The latter was only used one trips to Europe, so tended to last a two seasons at least. We now have one with a refillable tank. Even here, that is FAR cheaper. Our tank holds 20 litre*, near enough 10 kg. Last time I topped it up - a couple of weeks back locally- it cost 99p / litre. Say -u20 to fill it. Last time I bought a 6kg Calor refill, it was about -u32.

In France a 13Kg propane or butane cylinder costs about the same as
your 6Kg one, probably a bit less if you shop around. However we use
it only for cooking (on a boat) so price really isn't much of an
issue.
--
Chris Green
-+
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:

* We had a motorhome at the time which had space for 2 cylinders. In
Europe, I used to carry a UK one and a French Le Cube. The latter was only >> used one trips to Europe, so tended to last a two seasons at least. We now >> have one with a refillable tank. Even here, that is FAR cheaper. Our tank
holds 20 litre*, near enough 10 kg. Last time I topped it up - a couple of >> weeks back locally- it cost 99p / litre. Say -u20 to fill it. Last time I >> bought a 6kg Calor refill, it was about -u32.

In France a 13Kg propane or butane cylinder costs about the same as
your 6Kg one, probably a bit less if you shop around. However we use
it only for cooking (on a boat) so price really isn't much of an
issue.

Thank you, your numbers are probably more up to date. It is a while since I bought a refill in France.

As an aside, I am amazed by the availability of cylinders and the number of brands in France.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 22:11, NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we
lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

I suppose if one uses oil for central heating and hot water, and only
uses bottled gas where oil is not a substitute (eg a gas cooker) then
the cost is less.

Oil is pretty near the price of natural gas.

Well down on any electrical prices, but an electric induction cooker is
way better than an Aga top!
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 08:45:22 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On 21 Aug 2025 22:41:53 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

[quoted text muted]

The classic trick is to take a butane cylinder and set it on the
steadily diminishing flame of the butane burner.

My Dad remembered having to build a fire under the fuel tanks of diesel lorries in the winter when he was doing his (Italian) national service in
the 50s ...
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 2025-08-22 13:21, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 08:45:22 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On 21 Aug 2025 22:41:53 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

[quoted text muted]

The classic trick is to take a butane cylinder and set it on the
steadily diminishing flame of the butane burner.

My Dad remembered having to build a fire under the fuel tanks of diesel lorries in the winter when he was doing his (Italian) national service in
the 50s ...

When I first got a diesel car in 1986 I took a sample of the fuel and
put it into the freezer for severla days, which was I suppose at -15 to
-20C. It went milky white but still slopped around easily. I assumed
that was because flakes of solid were forming within the liquid. So the
fuel would flow, but might block filters or pumps. The car mitigated
that by having an in-line electric fuel heater before anything critical.

How cold does it have to get before you need to heat the bulk fuel and
not the lines? Or was modern DERV different even back in 1986? Shortly
after I got that car, filling stations started to advertise that they
were selling "winter diesel".

nib
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 14:02:44 +0100, nib wrote:

How cold does it have to get before you need to heat the bulk fuel and
not the lines? Or was modern DERV different even back in 1986? Shortly
after I got that car, filling stations started to advertise that they
were selling "winter diesel".

This was Italy just after the war. *Everything* was shit.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Harry Bloomfield Esq <harry.m1byt@outlook.com> wrote:

On 21/08/2025 23:41, Tim+ wrote:

Butane has a higher calorific value and the cylinders are cheaper in terms >> of -u/kg of gas so you do get more rCLbangs for your buckrCY but werCOve had >> issues with newer van appliances running poorly on butane compared to
propane so werCOve just ceased buying it.

They used to supply two different setting of pressure for the two gases,
but now they have compromised on a pressure between the two. Modern
caravan appliances seem to perform just fine on the compromise pressure.

We had a motorhome fridge soot up to the point of non-functioning after a relatively short period on butane.

Yes, it works but it can increase the service requirements of appliances
like water heaters and fridges.

I buy propane year round, for the caravan, so it is guaranteed to work
in the cold mornings of early spring and late autumn.

Ditto.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved
--
rCLSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of rC?an airplane.rCY

Dennis Miller


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 22/08/2025 19:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I've always wondered... is there any disadvantage (apart, maybe, from increased cost) of using winter diesel all year round? Does it burn less well/efficiently?

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is >> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to be drawn off.

In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run kitchen hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you see so many supermarkets selling refills.

They also sell butane for outdoor use - caravans, motorhomes etc.

In terms of energy output, butane is higher. However, this is offset by the vapourisation issue.

I always use propane in the caravan to avoid problems on cold mornings,
but when I needed some new (non-refillable) canisters for use with a
garden 'Flame Wand', I bought butane because a) They were a bit cheaper
and b) I was going to be using them in the middle of a hot summer - so
who cares about low temperature performance?

I wuz wrong.
Even in ambient temperatures over 20C, the flame would gradually reduce
until after maybe 10-12 minutes use the thing was useless even at
maximum setting.
I ended up using two canisters & swapping between them at frequent
intervals so the freezing cold one could warm up whilst the other was in
use.
--
Sam Plusnet
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 22/08/2025 20:00, NY wrote:

On 22/08/2025 19:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I've always wondered... is there any disadvantage (apart, maybe, from increased cost) of using winter diesel all year round? Does it burn less well/efficiently?

Fuel Economy falls in winter, but perhaps some of this is due to engines taking longer to come to operating temperature..

Dave
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From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 22/08/2025 22:02, David Wade wrote:

On 22/08/2025 20:00, NY wrote:

On 22/08/2025 19:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I've always wondered... is there any disadvantage (apart, maybe, from
increased cost) of using winter diesel all year round? Does it burn
less well/efficiently?

Fuel Economy falls in winter, but perhaps some of this is due to engines taking longer to come to operating temperature..

I have not found that. But absolutely driving on wet roads is a lot more draggy than on a dry one

Dave

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Fri, 8/22/2025 3:00 PM, NY wrote:

On 22/08/2025 19:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I've always wondered... is there any disadvantage (apart, maybe,
from increased cost) of using winter diesel all year round? Does it
burn less well/efficiently?

The blending recipe that refineries use, is changed on a
weekly basis, based on weather forecasts and existing
conditions. You make 25C fuel, consumed on a 25C day.
You do not make -40C fuel, and serve it on +30C day.
The temperature and the blend, are hand-in-glove items.
It is custom blending, for absolutely the best running
conditions possible.

The oil companies and this business, are one strange beast
from end to end.

Ask yourself this. The word "tariff" and "gasoline" do not
appear in the same sentence. Do you know what a riot looks
like ? That's what would happen if "tariff" and "gasoline"
appear in the same sentence in print :-/ The oil industry
is so fragile, so "teetering on the edge", you don't
dare touch it for fear of breaking it. We can close
old, worn out refineries. Yet, we cannot build new ones.
It's become like some law of physics, building a new
refinery is like traveling faster than the speed of light.
If *two* refineries close for maintenance on the same week now,
the price of diesel *doubles*. That is what I mean by
teetering. It hangs by a thread. You cannot fuck with it,
you cannot change any blend recipes. You can't even
fart near a refinery.

Did I mention your vehicle should be "multi-fuel ready" ?
well, it should be. Do what you can, to identify two fuels
that your vehicle can burn in an emergency.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Fri, 8/22/2025 4:30 AM, wasbit wrote:

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc.-a Is >> thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

Butane boils at 0 -#C & propane at minus 42 -#C.

You can watch propane boil here, at 4 minutes into the video or so.
This shows the available heat at room temperature, ready and able
to boil the liquid.

"Boiling Propane with Doug Reid"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94dCGHSoTXM

This is liquid propane in a beaker, outdoors in winter, in the Yukon.
They apply a source of heat, and the liquid doesn't even have a chance
to reach an equilibrium, giving the impression boiling happens at
a temperature below the textbook value. Notice he didn't use hand
warmth to bring it to a boil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wbX9tN7Y9Y

Notice as well, his "ignition demo" at the end of the video, is
less than spectacular, due to the low ambient temperature. If
you splashed liquid propane around at 25C, and there was a flame nearby,
you'd be over in the bleachers somewhere by now :-) The ignition at -40, reminds you of a small quantity of petrol at room temperature.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 21:29:44 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:

On 23/08/2025 12:05, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 21:44:31 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the
appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks,
etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more >>>>> bang for your buck?)

Butane fails to vapourise around 0 C from memory.

Propane will still vapourise, again from memory, below -30 C.

Most things like heaters, cooking appliances, use vapour.

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the
cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at
least the smaller ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for
the vapour to collect to be drawn off.


In France, it is common for people to use butane in houses to run
kitchen hobs, certainly in semi rural / rural areas. That is why you
see so many supermarkets selling refills.

They also sell butane for outdoor use - caravans, motorhomes etc.

In terms of energy output, butane is higher. However, this is offset
by the vapourisation issue.

I always use propane in the caravan to avoid problems on cold
mornings, but when I needed some new (non-refillable) canisters for
use with a garden 'Flame Wand', I bought butane because a) They were a
bit cheaper and b) I was going to be using them in the middle of a hot
summer - so who cares about low temperature performance?

I wuz wrong.
Even in ambient temperatures over 20C, the flame would gradually
reduce until after maybe 10-12 minutes use the thing was useless even
at maximum setting.
I ended up using two canisters & swapping between them at frequent
intervals so the freezing cold one could warm up whilst the other was
in use.

There is a little bit of science and engineering needed to use LPG.
It's one reason why it's not the fuel of choice in many applications.

Agreed, but I did not expect problems in warm summer weather (over 20
degrees C)

Ain't science fun :)
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 23/08/2025 21:26, Sam Plusnet wrote:

Our local (award winning) fish & chip shop has recently stopped doing fish. Costs too much & not enough demand, apparently.
<Insert 'What is the world coming to?' question here>

Well that's what comes of pissing on the fishermen to do a deal with the
EU...
--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 23/08/2025 21:46, nib wrote:

On 2025-08-23 20:37, Indy Jess John wrote:

On 22/08/2025 19:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 22/08/2025 14:02, nib wrote:

It went milky white but still slopped around easily.

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I remember in the days before winterised diesel a popular suggestion
doing the rounds was to put a gallon of petrol in the tank then fill
the tank with diesel, and that was supposed to prevent waxing.

I didn't know anyone using diesel in those days so I don't know if it
worked or not.

It was popular enough to be in the manual for my Citroen BX17RD (2* at
about 1 to 10 ratio)! I never tried it, I used to buy diesel additive in
a small tin and dose after each fill. Stopped when they started claiming
to sell winter diesel.

Ive been driving pretty much all diesel for around 13 years. No problems
on icy morning starts except its a little rougher till it warms up
Additives + glow plugs make light work

nib

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 21:26:59 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:

On 23/08/2025 18:23, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 08:38:53 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

It's up to you, to decide whether the listed fuels, offer any real
advantage or not. For example, ten minutes
from my place, the filling station next to the
hardware store offers:

petrol, diesel Tesla charging station (with faster chargers as well
as slower ones) Propane refill (if you have a propane tank fitted
to your car)
On site ten minute oil change (no plastic liter tins, big vat on
ceiling)
Fish and chips truck (during the day) :-)

In an emergency situation, fish and chips will allow significant effort
and mileage on a pushbike before being used up.

More usually, fish and chips require significant effort and mileage on
a pushbike before being used up...

Our local (award winning) fish & chip shop has recently stopped doing
fish.
Costs too much & not enough demand, apparently.
<Insert 'What is the world coming to?' question here>

It becomes a vicious cycle.

I like my fish from the cabinet when the batter has had a chance to go a
bit soggy. This means the fish needs to have been cooked in advance and
left in the cabinet.

"Back in the day" this was no problem. And they stack the cabinet as the
queue moved so you nearly always got a nice steamy batter fish.

Then the price went up, the queues slowed and no one will cook fish
unless it's ordered. Meaning it is now "nice'n'fresh" and totally not
what I wanted.

I've not had fish from a chippy since before 2020 and lockdown.

On the odd occasion I use a chippy it's either a fishcake, roe or kebab
meat (?!).

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 22:49:03 +0100, NY wrote:

On 23/08/2025 04:56, Paul wrote:

Notice as well, his "ignition demo" at the end of the video, is less
than spectacular, due to the low ambient temperature. If you splashed
liquid propane around at 25C, and there was a flame nearby,
you'd be over in the bleachers somewhere by now :-) The ignition at
-40,
reminds you of a small quantity of petrol at room temperature.

I remember in my first job when we had a fire safety demo, seeing the difference between the flammability of petrol and diesel. On a hot sunny
day, the lecturer laid out two shallow metal trays on the grass, each
about 1 cm deep and about 1 metre square. He applied a flaming rag on
the end of a pole to each.

The one containing petrol ignited before the rag even touched the
surface, so it was the vapour which lit first and then ignited the
liquid. No surprise there.

However the one containing diesel refused to ignite. There was no
significant amount of vapour, even though the diesel had been standing
at about 30 deg C for a few hours, and when the rag touched the liquid
it went out. The only way he could get the diesel to light was to bubble nitrogen (chosen to be relatively inert compared with oxygen or
atmospheric air) through it, to create small droplets - but even though
those burned, they didn't ignite the pool of diesel for a long time. One
it was alight, it burned very fiercely with filthy black smoke.
Likewise, a perfume atomiser of diesel produced a very impressive "flamethrower" jet because the atomiser acted like a fuel injector and produced a mist of droplets which could be ignited by the burning rag.

Isn't diesel used in ANFO ?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 10:54, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 22:49:03 +0100, NY wrote:

On 23/08/2025 04:56, Paul wrote:

Notice as well, his "ignition demo" at the end of the video, is less
than spectacular, due to the low ambient temperature. If you splashed
liquid propane around at 25C, and there was a flame nearby,
you'd be over in the bleachers somewhere by now :-) The ignition at
-40,
reminds you of a small quantity of petrol at room temperature.

I remember in my first job when we had a fire safety demo, seeing the
difference between the flammability of petrol and diesel. On a hot sunny
day, the lecturer laid out two shallow metal trays on the grass, each
about 1 cm deep and about 1 metre square. He applied a flaming rag on
the end of a pole to each.

The one containing petrol ignited before the rag even touched the
surface, so it was the vapour which lit first and then ignited the
liquid. No surprise there.

However the one containing diesel refused to ignite. There was no
significant amount of vapour, even though the diesel had been standing
at about 30 deg C for a few hours, and when the rag touched the liquid
it went out. The only way he could get the diesel to light was to bubble
nitrogen (chosen to be relatively inert compared with oxygen or
atmospheric air) through it, to create small droplets - but even though
those burned, they didn't ignite the pool of diesel for a long time. One
it was alight, it burned very fiercely with filthy black smoke.
Likewise, a perfume atomiser of diesel produced a very impressive
"flamethrower" jet because the atomiser acted like a fuel injector and
produced a mist of droplets which could be ignited by the burning rag.

Isn't diesel used in ANFO ?

It needs to be vaporised to go remotely 'bang' in air. ANFO has the
oxidant Ammonium Nitrate ( Fuel Oil ) to help it along

Almost anything will go bang if mixed with ammonium nitrate
--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 10:54, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 22:49:03 +0100, NY wrote:
Isn't diesel used in ANFO ?

Yes: Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

I like my fish from the cabinet when the batter has had a chance to go a
bit soggy. This means the fish needs to have been cooked in advance and
left in the cabinet.

"Back in the day" this was no problem. And they stack the cabinet as the queue moved so you nearly always got a nice steamy batter fish.

Then the price went up, the queues slowed and no one will cook fish
unless it's ordered. Meaning it is now "nice'n'fresh" and totally not
what I wanted.

The other big advantage of cook-in-advance is that it will have cooled
down a bit since the temperature at which it was cooked, so you can eat
it there-and-then, instead of having to wait for ages for it to cool to
an eatable temperature.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 10:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive been driving pretty much all diesel for around 13 years. No problems
on icy morning starts except its a little rougher till it warms up
Additives + glow plugs make light work

I've had diesel cars since the mid 90s (Peugeot 306 with 1.9 non-HDi
engine, Peugeot 306 2.0 HDi and Peugeot 308 1.6 HDi, and my wife's two
cars - Honda Civic and Honda CR-V were/are diesel).

I've never had problems with starting or running when cold. The only
problem is that when the oil is very viscous, the starter motor has
trouble turning the engine to get it up to firing speed - but the actual ignition of the fuel and the running when very cold is faultless. Much
better than the petrol-engined cars that I had which suffered
engine-fade as I tried to accelerate, if the engine was very cold.

The Honda Civic used to give out a lot of blue/white cold-diesel smoke
when it was very cold weather for the first few minutes. It was
definitely incomplete combustion of diesel, and not the very different
smell of engine oil burning.

As far as I know (I've not driven behind my Peugeot to see its exhaust)
it still has clean (non-sooty) exhaust during acceleration, after 17
years and 200,000 miles and it still goes very well - good acceleration
when needed, fuel economy almost as good as when it was new. The only
problem is a bit of hesitance and flat-spot at about 25-30 mph around
town, if I approach a slight bend, or ease off the power for a moment,
and then accelerate (gently) out of it. Still a bloody good car.

Some years ago it needed a new diesel particulate filter and catalytic converter which cost -u1000 in total. Ouch! Given its age, I'd have got
next to nothing if I'd sold it to the garage without those fixes, so I
bit the bullet and kept it. I'm glad I did.

The next big bills will be new cam-belt once that becomes due, and at
some point it will need a new clutch since the bite point started to
rise about 10,000 miles ago (up until then, the auto-adjustment
compensated for gradual wear). But there is no sign of clutch slipping
at all: it will still do a hill-start on a 1:3 hill (Rosedale Chimney,
near me *). And it's not done badly: 200,000 miles on its original
clutch - unless it was changed (highly unlikely!) in the first 18,000
before I bought the car as an ex-demonstrator.


(*) When the car in front of me ground to a halt, I had no option but to
stop as well. The driver ahead of me panicked and kept rolling further
and further back, eventually using up the very generous gap that I
always leave when going up there, so I had to get out and drive his car
to the top (**) and then go back for my car!

(**) I stalled the first time - unknown engine, unknown clutch bite
point - but I didn't roll back an inch because I know how to hold a car
on the handbrake until the engine starts to pull the car uphill, unlike
the guy whose car it was. Being a petrol engine, it needed a *lot* of
throttle to pull the car, unlike my diesel which pulled away at about
1200 rpm, so only a little bit above idling.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

In message <1087no6$140kd$1@dont-email.me>, Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> writes

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is >thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your >buck?)

We are in Aberdeenshire where outside temps fluctuate from +33 to -18
(that we have noted) and use orange 47kg Propane cylinders for our gas
hob. Never a problem, and a pair of cylinders lasts several years.
--
Graeme
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 22:49:03 +0100, NY wrote:

On 23/08/2025 04:56, Paul wrote:

Notice as well, his "ignition demo" at the end of the video, is less
than spectacular, due to the low ambient temperature. If you splashed liquid propane around at 25C, and there was a flame nearby, you'd be
over in the bleachers somewhere by now :-) The ignition at -40,
reminds you of a small quantity of petrol at room temperature.

I remember in my first job when we had a fire safety demo, seeing the difference between the flammability of petrol and diesel. On a hot sunny day, the lecturer laid out two shallow metal trays on the grass, each
about 1 cm deep and about 1 metre square. He applied a flaming rag on
the end of a pole to each.

The one containing petrol ignited before the rag even touched the
surface, so it was the vapour which lit first and then ignited the
liquid. No surprise there.

However the one containing diesel refused to ignite. There was no significant amount of vapour, even though the diesel had been standing
at about 30 deg C for a few hours, and when the rag touched the liquid
it went out. The only way he could get the diesel to light was to bubble nitrogen (chosen to be relatively inert compared with oxygen or
atmospheric air) through it, to create small droplets - but even though those burned, they didn't ignite the pool of diesel for a long time. One
it was alight, it burned very fiercely with filthy black smoke.
Likewise, a perfume atomiser of diesel produced a very impressive "flamethrower" jet because the atomiser acted like a fuel injector and produced a mist of droplets which could be ignited by the burning rag.

Isn't diesel used in ANFO ?

Yes but the AN is what supplies the oxygen.
--
braind
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Thomas Prufer <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 08:38:53 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

It's up to you, to decide whether the listed fuels, offer any real advantage or not. For example, ten minutes from my place, the filling station next to the hardware store offers:

petrol, diesel
Tesla charging station (with faster chargers as well as slower ones)
Propane refill (if you have a propane tank fitted to your car)
On site ten minute oil change (no plastic liter tins, big vat on

ceiling)

Fish and chips truck (during the day) :-)

In an emergency situation, fish and chips will allow significant effort
and mileage on a pushbike before being used up.

More usually, fish and chips require significant effort and mileage on a pushbike before being used up...

And the old fish oil will work well in the diesel, at least in older ones, leaving an aroma behind. Newer ones need the oil diluted with Deisel.
--
braind
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Fri, 8/22/2025 4:47 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:

NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the

village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil. When we lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

The cheapest way to buy gas, is in a bulk delivery, into a fixed tank, from a tanker. Or from a filling station, which supplies gas for gas powered vehicles, to a refillable container such as Gaslow. Last I heard, around 54p per litre.

They seem to max-out at 11kg cylinders, sounds like daily refill trips compared to weekly dual 47kg cylinders?

I hope this picture is viewable. This is a typical tank pair outside
a rural house. These are filled by truck delivery.

https://cdn-ieabj.nitrocdn.com/BZgiVVYTVTrvbmPnibpZmlSyZMmQNxcs/assets/images/optimized/rev-9116245/www.xyzstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/iStock-2159549470-840x460.jpg

The bottom of the tank, the discolouration, is typical on installs,
almost like it is biological activity on a wet surface.

The weird part of the picture, is this size always appear in pairs :-)
As if, maybe, it has something to do with the tank filling
ritual. Like, run off one cylinder, while the truck fills the
other or something. I've never known anyone owning a setup like
this, to ask about the pair thing. Maybe at low temperature, you
can "freeze out" one cylinder, and switch over to the other for
a while.

The next size up, is a horizontal tank, there is only the one tank,
it might be equal to three or four of those tanks, and that is used
on a farm, where perhaps some of the farm equipment runs off propane too.
It would be a truck fill.

The farm one is 1000 gallon. According to this page.

https://www.superiorpropane.com/tank-sizes

"Larger Propane Tanks

If you have a large commercial operation and need a greater
supply of propane, we have tanks ranging from 2,000 to 60,000 gallons.
"

I don't think propane is particularly cheap. And if the delivery
truck doesn't show up (unreliable distribution scheme), that
can be a stressor. We've had rail strikes, where they had to get
creative to keep the propane tanks filled. It's OK if your
propane is "mostly decorative" and you don't have a daily
consumption pattern.

And be careful with those little barbeque tanks, and the positioning
of your barbeque with respect to the house. A neighbour four doors down,
their outdppr barbeque lit the side of the house on fire. Two fire vehicles showed up, a pumper and a ladder truck. The ladder truck, the boom was maintained horizontal, and swung in near the property, and the firemen
used an aerial attack on the fire (run along boom, carrying hose).
As it would be harder to run a hose all way round the house and fight
the fire from ground level.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 8/22/2025 4:47 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:

NY wrote:

My parents have a holiday cottage which has no mains gas supply to the >>>> village, and they chose bottled propane (2x 47 kg cylinders) for

central heating. It is hideously expensive to run compared with oil.
When we lived there for a year, a pair of cylinders only lasted a week or so in winter.

The cheapest way to buy gas, is in a bulk delivery, into a fixed tank,
from a tanker. Or from a filling station, which supplies gas for gas
powered vehicles, to a refillable container such as Gaslow. Last I
heard, around 54p per litre.

They seem to max-out at 11kg cylinders, sounds like daily refill trips
compared to weekly dual 47kg cylinders?

I hope this picture is viewable. This is a typical tank pair outside
a rural house. These are filled by truck delivery.


https://cdn-ieabj.nitrocdn.com/BZgiVVYTVTrvbmPnibpZmlSyZMmQNxcs/assets/images/optimized/rev-9116245/www.xyzstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/iStock-2159549470-840x460.jpg

The bottom of the tank, the discolouration, is typical on installs,
almost like it is biological activity on a wet surface.

The weird part of the picture, is this size always appear in pairs :-)

Nothing weird about that. In the UK you would have an automatic changeover valve that switches the supply when one tank empties. This would be on swappable tanks rather than ones that are refilled in situ but the same principle of maintaining a constant supply would apply.

As if, maybe, it has something to do with the tank filling
ritual. Like, run off one cylinder, while the truck fills the
other or something. I've never known anyone owning a setup like
this, to ask about the pair thing. Maybe at low temperature, you
can "freeze out" one cylinder, and switch over to the other for
a while.

Unlikely on propane unless you live somewhere really cold.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Paul wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

[Gaslow] seem to max-out at 11kg cylinders, sounds like daily
refill trips compared to weekly dual 47kg cylinders?

I hope this picture is viewable. This is a typical tank pair outside
a rural house. These are filled by truck delivery.

https://cdn-ieabj.nitrocdn.com/BZgiVVYTVTrvbmPnibpZmlSyZMmQNxcs/assets/images/optimized/rev-9116245/www.xyzstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/iStock-2159549470-840x460.jpg

Still seem rather small to expect a delivery company to regularly top-up

The next size up, is a horizontal tank, there is only the one tank,
it might be equal to three or four of those tanks, and that is used
on a farm, where perhaps some of the farm equipment runs off propane too.
It would be a truck fill.

The farm one is 1000 gallon. According to this page.

Do you have USA gallons, or UK gallons?

https://www.superiorpropane.com/tank-sizes

"Larger Propane Tanks

If you have a large commercial operation and need a greater
supply of propane, we have tanks ranging from 2,000 to 60,000 gallons."

Yes, here I think the starting size for an installed tank, rather than
just using multiple exchangeable cylinders is 1200 litres, they can be 'buried'.

<https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/409/409370-97754254e34fdd775fca02da53261144.png>


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.
--
Regards
wasbit
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 24/08/2025 13:47, Graeme wrote:

In message <1087no6$140kd$1@dont-email.me>, Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> writes

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks,
etc.-a Is
thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your
buck?)

We are in Aberdeenshire where outside temps fluctuate from +33 to -18
(that we have noted) and use orange 47kg Propane cylinders for our gas hob.-a Never a problem, and a pair of cylinders lasts several years.

Propane boils at minus 42-#C so you shouldn't have any problems.
However they don't use propane in extreme climates where the
temperatures may get lower.
--
Regards
wasbit
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Mon, 8/25/2025 3:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Yes, here I think the starting size for an installed tank, rather than just using multiple exchangeable cylinders is 1200 litres, they can be 'buried'.

<https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/409/409370-97754254e34fdd775fca02da53261144.png>

The main tank at the propane depot, is half buried below grade.
That is the only tank I've seen, arranged that way. The farm
ones are above ground.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 05:59:24 -0400, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 8/25/2025 3:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Yes, here I think the starting size for an installed tank, rather than
just using multiple exchangeable cylinders is 1200 litres, they can be
'buried'.

<https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/ 409/409370-97754254e34fdd775fca02da53261144.png>

The main tank at the propane depot, is half buried below grade.
That is the only tank I've seen, arranged that way. The farm ones are
above ground.

If they are buried (more common in domestic settings) then they need to
be set on a concrete base to stop them going a-floating if it floods.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders are usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to collect to be drawn off.

I don't get that. I've seen forklifts like that too, and have never been
able to work out what is going on.

You put a new tank on, and it's full, so liquid propane comes out of the
tap into the fuel system. OK, so the fuel system needs to run on that.

But then the tank runs down, and the liquid is all at the bottom of the
tank.

Below the level of the outlet.

So only gas can be coming out.

Andy
--
Do not listen to rumour, but, if you do, do not believe it.
Ghandi.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

Vir Campestris wrote:

I've seen forklifts like that too, and have never been
able to work out what is going on.

You put a new tank on, and it's full, so liquid propane comes out of the
tap into the fuel system. OK, so the fuel system needs to run on that.

But then the tank runs down, and the liquid is all at the bottom of the tank.

Below the level of the outlet.

So only gas can be coming out.

They use special "FLT" cylinders which have a dip tube ...

<https://www.flogas.co.uk/product/18kg-flt-propane-gas-cylinder>
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

In message <108haa1$3b2gu$1@dont-email.me>, wasbit
<wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> writes

On 24/08/2025 13:47, Graeme wrote:

We are in Aberdeenshire where outside temps fluctuate from +33 to
-18 (that we have noted) and use orange 47kg Propane cylinders for
our gas hob.a Never a problem, and a pair of cylinders lasts several >>years.

Propane boils at minus 42#C so you shouldn't have any problems.
However they don't use propane in extreme climates where the
temperatures may get lower.

So far, so good. Lowest UK temperature of -27C was recorded about 15
miles away from here but the highest in Scotland (+34) was miles away,
south of Edinburgh.
--
Graeme
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 25/08/2025 12:21, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 21/08/2025 19:42, Brian wrote:

I believe fork lifts use liquid propane - you may notice the cylinders
are
usually horizontal. Cylinders in vapour systems - at least the smaller
ones- are used vertically so there is a volume for the vapour to
collect to
be drawn off.

I don't get that. I've seen forklifts like that too, and have never been able to work out what is going on.

You put a new tank on, and it's full, so liquid propane comes out of the
tap into the fuel system. OK, so the fuel system needs to run on that.

But then the tank runs down, and the liquid is all at the bottom of the tank.

Below the level of the outlet.

So only gas can be coming out.

I think the engines run on gas, but there is a device somewhere that
turns the liquid into gas, if liquid turns up.

Andy

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 25/08/2025 12:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.

Oh its not hard to fillet a sardine or a mackerel, or a trout. Or cut
steaks out of a Tuna fish!

It's herrings I draw the line at.
--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 2025-08-25 12:28, Andy Burns wrote:

Vir Campestris wrote:

I've seen forklifts like that too, and have never been able to work
out what is going on.

You put a new tank on, and it's full, so liquid propane comes out of
the tap into the fuel system. OK, so the fuel system needs to run on
that.

But then the tank runs down, and the liquid is all at the bottom of
the tank.

Below the level of the outlet.

So only gas can be coming out.

They use special "FLT" cylinders which have a dip tube ...

<https://www.flogas.co.uk/product/18kg-flt-propane-gas-cylinder>

Often they are mounted horizontally with an L-shaped dip tube. Which way
up is typically indicated by a big arrow saying "this way up".

https://www.handihire.co.uk/products/18kg-propane-forklift-gas-bottle-calor

nib
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 13:20:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/08/2025 12:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.

Oh its not hard to fillet a sardine or a mackerel, or a trout. Or cut
steaks out of a Tuna fish!

It's herrings I draw the line at.

I can't recall if it was a dover or a lemon sole, but once was enough.

Of course trying to find a fishmonger is now as much a challenge as
finding a butcher.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 25/08/2025 15:33, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 13:20:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/08/2025 12:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.

Oh its not hard to fillet a sardine or a mackerel, or a trout. Or cut
steaks out of a Tuna fish!

It's herrings I draw the line at.

I can't recall if it was a dover or a lemon sole, but once was enough.

Of course trying to find a fishmonger is now as much a challenge as
finding a butcher.

IIRC our local Tescos has a good one.

several butchers in this area.
--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

In article <108hs7s$3p51p$79@dont-email.me>,
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 13:20:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/08/2025 12:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.

Oh its not hard to fillet a sardine or a mackerel, or a trout. Or cut steaks out of a Tuna fish!

It's herrings I draw the line at.

I can't recall if it was a dover or a lemon sole, but once was enough.

Of course trying to find a fishmonger is now as much a challenge as
finding a butcher.

we have a butcher in our village - but the fishmonger vanished at lest 30
years ago. However, Waitrose have a decent fish counter.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4to#
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 25/08/2025 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/08/2025 15:33, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 13:20:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/08/2025 12:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:19:20 +0100, wasbit wrote:

On 24/08/2025 10:53, Jethro_uk wrote:

snip <

I'm also in the Midlands where rock salmon gets a "You what ?" :(

I've caught & skinned plenty of those ie dogfish or huss. Gloves &
pliers recommended.
Not quite as bad as skinning skate wings though.

I leave fish prep to the experts. Even if I could source a filleting
knife with ease.

Oh its not hard to fillet a sardine or a mackerel, or a trout. Or cut
steaks out of a Tuna fish!

It's herrings I draw the line at.

I can't recall if it was a dover or a lemon sole, but once was enough.

Of course trying to find a fishmonger is now as much a challenge as
finding a butcher.

IIRC our local Tescos has a good one.

You obviously haven't visited for a while. Tesco closed all its fish
counters in 2023. My Sainsbury's no longer has one either.

several butchers in this area.

My favourite butchers seems to be vanishing quicker than pubs. The one
in my local Sainsbury's is no more as it also closed its butchery
counter, our nearest Booths which had a great meat selection is now an
Asda. My two "go to" independent butchers have also gone.

Dave
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

In message <108hs7s$3p51p$79@dont-email.me>, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> writes

Of course trying to find a fishmonger is now as much a challenge as
finding a butcher.

Move up to Aberdeenshire - we have both in this village. More butchers
in the villages east and west of us and a fresh fish van does the rounds weekly, from Peterhead I think.

Swings and roundabouts though. We have an excellent doctor's practice
and chemist in the village, but nearest hospital is 40+ miles away.

Local Co-op serves us well, but nearest large supermarket is 25 miles
with more choice 40 miles away.

Had a wonderful old fashioned ironmonger, but he has just retired, at
80. Nearest 25 miles away with 'sheds' 40 miles away.

We do have a baker though :-)
--
Graeme
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

On 21/08/2025 19:15, Chris Holmes wrote:

How cold will a butane gas bottle (calor 4.5 Kg) work till?

I.e, if it is outside at say -4C, will gas still flow to the appliance?

(Propane seems to be the lpg fuel of choice for gig shower blocks, etc. Is thot because it works at lower temps? Or maybe you get more bang for your buck?)

Propane is the gas of choice if you want to be able to use it at any
time of year, not just warmer months.

But even at low temperatures propane produces less heat due to reduced pressure. For flying in the Alps hot-air balloon propane tanks are
'spiked' with nitrogen in order to increase the pressure. However, you
need to burn all the propane in the tank before the ambient temperature
rises because the pressure will then increase further. The nitrogen
doesn't sit on top of the propane it mixes into it so you need to get
rid of all the propane.

Malcolm
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2