• Re: Curious about "AI" PCs, and NPMs

    From Daniel James@daniel@me.invalid to uk.comp.homebuilt on Sat Jul 5 16:34:16 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    On 22/06/2025 12:32, Philip Herlihy wrote:
    I'm seeing a lot of references to "AI" PCs and laptops, which I
    understand have a Neural Processing Module (NPM). I'm finding it hard
    to get these in perspective.

    Back from my holidays and coming to this thread a little late ...

    I'm not an expert ... but I see two ways that people are using AI, at
    present.

    One is very much cloud-based, and requires little or no assistance from
    the client. I'm thinking of things like ChatGPT and its brethren, which
    work using huge models that live on the server. NP capability on the
    server is presumably useful, but not on the client.

    The other is in applications that use pre-built models that can be run locally. Things like recognition of human forms in images use this, and
    they can run much better with GPGPU computing of an NPM.

    Aside: I have a cheap (~£20) security camera that has an "AI chip" built
    in to help it recognize people, vehicles, pets, etc., as well as just
    motion in the images from the sensor. It seems to work quite well, but I
    don't know how much the so-called AI chip actually helps, though the CPU
    in a £20 camera can't be all that powerful (and presumably the models
    for recognizing bipedal and quadripedal forms are easy to bake into a
    chip, and simple enough that it doesn't take an expensive chip to run them).

    Chip-makers are jumping on the AI bandwagon by adding some NP capability
    to CPUs, but only to quite high-end CPUs, as yet. It's not clear to me
    whether this is supposed to be helpful with server-side AI applications
    like ChatGPT or with client side applications. In either case there
    won't be any benefit unless there is software support. Ideally you'd
    hope that a standard API for using NP facilities would emerge that would
    work with any NP hardware, but the lack of any such API for GPGPU
    computing (CUDA is nVidia-only) even now suggests that this may be some
    time coming.

    So ... I wouldn't worry at this stage about not having AI capability in
    a new PC. The playing field is still moving around and we can't see
    where the goalposts are going to be, yet. The NP capabilities of a CPU
    you buy today may not be relevant in a year or two's time.

    In any case, there are NPMs (e.g. Hailo) that can attach to PCIe
    (especially M.2) buses. Get one of those, if you're interested enough to
    want to play, and you'll be able to replace it with something else when
    it becomes obsolete without ditching the entire CPU. If PCs with NPMs
    become a thing you can add one of those.

    I think the exciting side of AI will be server-side for some time, yet,
    though - especially as the AI companies want you to upload your data to
    help improve their models (but perhaps I'm a little cynical).
    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.
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  • From Philip Herlihy@nothing@invalid.com to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 14:02:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    In article <104bgfe$1ilqt$1@dont-email.me>, daniel@me.invalid says...


    In any case, there are NPMs (e.g. Hailo) that can attach to PCIe
    (especially M.2) buses. Get one of those, if you're interested enough to >want to play, and you'll be able to replace it with something else when
    it becomes obsolete without ditching the entire CPU. If PCs with NPMs
    become a thing you can add one of those.

    I think the exciting side of AI will be server-side for some time, yet,



    That confirms my growing view that the ideal in such an early
    development market (especially for someone whose last PC lasted 11 years
    so far!) that replaceable components would be the way to go. I suspect
    that a "soldered-on" NPU would be obsolete before any software arrived
    that might use it!
    --
    --
    Phil, London
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  • From Philip Herlihy@nothing@invalid.com to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 14:06:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    In article <104bgfe$1ilqt$1@dont-email.me>, daniel@me.invalid says...


    there are NPMs (e.g. Hailo) that can attach to PCIe
    (especially M.2) buses.


    Is this the sort of thing you mean? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waveshare-Hailo-8-Accelerator-Raspberry- Compatible/dp/B0D9298XL5/
    --
    --
    Phil, London
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  • From Philip Herlihy@nothing@invalid.com to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 14:07:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    In article <104bgfe$1ilqt$1@dont-email.me>, daniel@me.invalid says...


    I think the exciting side of AI will be server-side for some time,


    Wondering if Anti-virus tools might be early adopters of NPM
    availability?
    --
    --
    Phil, London
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  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 14:14:53 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    Philip Herlihy wrote:

    Daniel James says...

    there are NPMs (e.g. Hailo) that can attach to PCIe
    (especially M.2) buses.

    Is this the sort of thing you mean? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waveshare-Hailo-8-Accelerator-Raspberry- Compatible/dp/B0D9298XL5/
    Win12 might need one of these to run the new AI Paint or Notepad

    <https://etontechnology.com/products/900-21001-0020-000-nvidia-a100-80gb-pcie-gpu-accelerator-new>
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  • From Daniel James@daniel@me.invalid to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 19:19:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    On 07/07/2025 14:06, Philip Herlihy wrote:
    Is this the sort of thing you mean?
    [snipped Amazon link]

    Well, maybe ... that link doesn't work for me (possibly because it's line-wrapped) ... but definitely this sort of thing:

    https://hailo.ai/products/ai-accelerators/hailo-8l-m-2-ai-acceleration-module-for-ai-light-applications/

    or, indeed, one of its bigger brethren with the Hail0-8 (rather than 8L)
    chip, which has twice the processor elements (and about twice the cost).

    Note that the Hailo NPMs are apparently optimized for edge (i.e. on the client) video applications, which is perhaps why all the examples are
    for such useful applications as recognizing bananas in video streams!
    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.
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  • From Daniel James@daniel@me.invalid to uk.comp.homebuilt on Mon Jul 7 19:22:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.comp.homebuilt

    On 07/07/2025 14:07, Philip Herlihy wrote:
    I think the exciting side of AI will be server-side for some time,

    Wondering if Anti-virus tools might be early adopters of NPM
    availability?

    That would certainly be a useful thing for them to do ... but I think
    the days of AV tools simply matching virus-typical patterns of opcodes
    in executable binaries are long gone. These days viral code is encrypted
    and hidden inside the image to make it harder for these tools to work.

    It may be that AI can be useful here, but I don't know that todays
    simple parallel pattern-matchers can quite cut the mustard.
    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.
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