From Newsgroup: talk.origins

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so he
has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when they
are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial. If the gaps did
not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that the gaps are
never going to be filled."

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From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 9/3/2025 7:36 AM, MarkE wrote:

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so he
has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when they
are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.-a If the gaps did
not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that the gaps are
never going to be filled."

The truth seems to sting a bit. Instead of crying about reality, what
you should do is admit that you are into the gap denial in order to
support your religious beliefs. It is obvious that the only reason why
you want to fill the origin of life gap with some god is due to your
Biblical beliefs. What you need to do is face reality like the other
IDiots. When they realized that the ID perp's god-of-the-gaps denial stupidity (that the ID perps got from the scientific creationists that
came before them) did not support their Biblical beliefs they quit
supporting the ID scam. You just started to take the gaps independently
so that you could lie to yourself about them without dealing with how
they affect your religious beliefs. You admit to this by your refusal
to state in a simple and straight forward manner how you deal with the
fact that the origin of life gap is not Bibilical, and that if the gap
is filled it would not be filled by your Biblical god. You lie to
yourself about this being about the limits of science, but it is only
your way to keep denying reality in order to maintain your religious
beliefs.

What creationist like you need to do is to face the fact that the Bible
is wrong about a lot of things that we have been able to figure out
about nature, and sort that out for yourself. Wallowing in denial is
never going to change reality.

Saint Augustine was already admonishing Christians in the early church
that they could not use the Bible to deny what we could figure out about nature for ourselves. He was having issues with Biblical literalists
that were making stupid claims about nature (likely flat earthers, but
he doesn't specifically state the issue). The Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physical measurements a couple of
centuries before Christ was born. Even after the failure of geocentrism
there was a resurgence of flat earth creationism after Darwin publish
the Origin of Species. Even the young earth creationists were whipping
a dead horse at that time. Kelvin's counters to the geological
estimates had an earth of around 300 million years old, and Darwin could
only claim that if 300 million years was all life had, that is all life
had to evolve into what we have today. Kelvin lived long enough to
learn why his estimates were wrong, and we now understand that the earth
is around 4.5 billion years old and that life has likely existed on this planet for over 3 billion years.

For Christianity nature has never supported the literal Biblical
creation (the earth was known not to be flat before Christ was born).
Science is just the study of nature, and nature just is not Biblical. Descriptions of the creation were understood to be metaphorical in the
early church, but Biblical literalists have fought against this reality
to this day. You need to stop fighting reality and deal with it in some
sane manner. You don't want to end up like Bill and start claiming that reality doesn't exist. What would that mean to your religious beliefs?

Ron Okimoto

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From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 4/09/2025 12:20 am, RonO wrote:

On 9/3/2025 7:36 AM, MarkE wrote:

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and
informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so he
has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when they
are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.-a If the gaps did
not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that the gaps are
never going to be filled."

The truth seems to sting a bit.-a Instead of crying about reality, what
you should do is admit that you are into the gap denial in order to
support your religious beliefs.-a It is obvious that the only reason why
you want to fill the origin of life gap with some god is due to your Biblical beliefs.-a What you need to do is face reality like the other IDiots.-a When they realized that the ID perp's god-of-the-gaps denial stupidity (that the ID perps got from the scientific creationists that
came before them) did not support their Biblical beliefs they quit supporting the ID scam.-a You just started to take the gaps independently
so that you could lie to yourself about them without dealing with how
they affect your religious beliefs.-a You admit to this by your refusal
to state in a simple and straight forward manner how you deal with the
fact that the origin of life gap is not Bibilical, and that if the gap
is filled it would not be filled by your Biblical god.-a You lie to
yourself about this being about the limits of science, but it is only
your way to keep denying reality in order to maintain your religious beliefs.

What creationist like you need to do is to face the fact that the Bible
is wrong about a lot of things that we have been able to figure out
about nature, and sort that out for yourself.-a Wallowing in denial is
never going to change reality.

Saint Augustine was already admonishing Christians in the early church
that they could not use the Bible to deny what we could figure out about nature for ourselves.-a He was having issues with Biblical literalists
that were making stupid claims about nature (likely flat earthers, but
he doesn't specifically state the issue).-a The Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physical measurements a couple of
centuries before Christ was born.-a Even after the failure of geocentrism there was a resurgence of flat earth creationism after Darwin publish
the Origin of Species.-a Even the young earth creationists were whipping
a dead horse at that time.-a Kelvin's counters to the geological
estimates had an earth of around 300 million years old, and Darwin could only claim that if 300 million years was all life had, that is all life
had to evolve into what we have today.-a Kelvin lived long enough to
learn why his estimates were wrong, and we now understand that the earth
is around 4.5 billion years old and that life has likely existed on this planet for over 3 billion years.

For Christianity nature has never supported the literal Biblical
creation (the earth was known not to be flat before Christ was born). Science is just the study of nature, and nature just is not Biblical. Descriptions of the creation were understood to be metaphorical in the
early church, but Biblical literalists have fought against this reality
to this day.-a You need to stop fighting reality and deal with it in some sane manner.-a You don't want to end up like Bill and start claiming that reality doesn't exist.-a What would that mean to your religious beliefs?

Ron Okimoto

As I've said before, I know and respect a number of evangelical
Christians who represent a spectrum of positions: Theistic Evolution
(e.g. Biologos), Progressive Creation (e.g. Reasons to Believe), OEC
(e.g. some ID), YEC (e.g. other ID, AIG, etc). OEC/ID is where I
tentatively sit (with previously disclosed reservations with some
aspects of the ID camp).

As I've also said before, while my faith is not dependent on "gaps" in science, I enjoy and value science and believe it to be a companion of
faith, not an opponent. Not sure why you are so unabatedly vociferous
about this?






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From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 9/3/2025 10:30 PM, MarkE wrote:

On 4/09/2025 12:20 am, RonO wrote:

On 9/3/2025 7:36 AM, MarkE wrote:

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and
informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so
he has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when
they are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.-a If the
gaps did not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that
the gaps are never going to be filled."

The truth seems to sting a bit.-a Instead of crying about reality, what
you should do is admit that you are into the gap denial in order to
support your religious beliefs.-a It is obvious that the only reason
why you want to fill the origin of life gap with some god is due to
your Biblical beliefs.-a What you need to do is face reality like the
other IDiots.-a When they realized that the ID perp's god-of-the-gaps
denial stupidity (that the ID perps got from the scientific
creationists that came before them) did not support their Biblical
beliefs they quit supporting the ID scam.-a You just started to take
the gaps independently so that you could lie to yourself about them
without dealing with how they affect your religious beliefs.-a You
admit to this by your refusal to state in a simple and straight
forward manner how you deal with the fact that the origin of life gap
is not Bibilical, and that if the gap is filled it would not be filled
by your Biblical god.-a You lie to yourself about this being about the
limits of science, but it is only your way to keep denying reality in
order to maintain your religious beliefs.

What creationist like you need to do is to face the fact that the
Bible is wrong about a lot of things that we have been able to figure
out about nature, and sort that out for yourself.-a Wallowing in denial
is never going to change reality.

Saint Augustine was already admonishing Christians in the early church
that they could not use the Bible to deny what we could figure out
about nature for ourselves.-a He was having issues with Biblical
literalists that were making stupid claims about nature (likely flat
earthers, but he doesn't specifically state the issue).-a The Greeks
had estimated the circumference of the earth by physical measurements
a couple of centuries before Christ was born.-a Even after the failure
of geocentrism there was a resurgence of flat earth creationism after
Darwin publish the Origin of Species.-a Even the young earth
creationists were whipping a dead horse at that time.-a Kelvin's
counters to the geological estimates had an earth of around 300
million years old, and Darwin could only claim that if 300 million
years was all life had, that is all life had to evolve into what we
have today.-a Kelvin lived long enough to learn why his estimates were
wrong, and we now understand that the earth is around 4.5 billion
years old and that life has likely existed on this planet for over 3
billion years.

For Christianity nature has never supported the literal Biblical
creation (the earth was known not to be flat before Christ was born).
Science is just the study of nature, and nature just is not Biblical.
Descriptions of the creation were understood to be metaphorical in the
early church, but Biblical literalists have fought against this
reality to this day.-a You need to stop fighting reality and deal with
it in some sane manner.-a You don't want to end up like Bill and start
claiming that reality doesn't exist.-a What would that mean to your
religious beliefs?

Ron Okimoto

As I've said before, I know and respect a number of evangelical
Christians who represent a spectrum of positions: Theistic Evolution
(e.g. Biologos), Progressive Creation (e.g. Reasons to Believe), OEC
(e.g. some ID), YEC (e.g. other ID, AIG, etc). OEC/ID is where I
tentatively sit (with previously disclosed reservations with some
aspects of the ID camp).

As I've also said before, while my faith is not dependent on "gaps" in science, I enjoy and value science and believe it to be a companion of faith, not an opponent. Not sure why you are so unabatedly vociferous
about this?

And still you have to lie about why you are into the gap denial. The ID
scam is just a continuation of the gap denial that the scientific
creationists had to fall back on when all their creation science efforts failed. They had their flood geology claims and their screwy age of the
earth claims, along with their second law misconceptions, but nothing
panned out for them. Even though the gaps (they used the same Top Six
gaps as the ID perps) did not support YEC they still used them in order
to deny the science that told them that the Bible was wrong about the creation. You know that the YEC understand that the gaps do not support
their YEC beliefs because #1 The Big Bang is one of the science topics
that they want to remove from the public school science standards. They
may use it for science denial, but they do not want their kids to
understand what the Big Bang actually is.

You are in the same boat. Even though you are OEC you are like the
Reason to Believe exIDiots that can't deal with the Top Six as they
exist in this reality. Just like the TO IDiots that quit supporting the
ID scam. The origin of life gap is #3 of the Top Six, and even you fail
to deal with it as associated with the other gaps. You demonstrate this
by your refusal to make a straightforward statement on how you expect to
deal with filling this gap with some god that would not support your
Biblical beliefs. The god that fills the origin of life gap is not the
god described in the Bible. You know this, so you are only using the
gap denial like the YEC used them. They just allow you to lie to
yourself about reality.

Running from stating how the gap relates to your religious beliefs when
the reason for your gap denial is to continue to support your religious beliefs is just stupid and insane at this time in the ID scam. You and
Tour understand that the ID science never existed, but you can't give up
on the gap denial even though the gaps can't be filled with the Biblical
god. Gap denial is just stupid and senseless when you have to admit
that the actual god of creation could have created in anyway possible.
An ID perp like Denton just claims that after his designer set things up
with the Big Bang that it all unfolded into what we have today. He
minimizes his wallowing in denial, and accepts that the creation is not
the one described in the Bible.

Ron Okimoto

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From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 9/3/25 5:36 AM, MarkE wrote:

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so he
has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when they
are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.-a If the gaps did
not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that the gaps are
never going to be filled."

I think POTM is pretty much dead. At least, I have not been reading t.o. sedulously enough to track nominations, and there may not be enough
regulars left for a meaningful vote.

But if POTM were still viable, you would need to post the nomination as
a following to the nominated post, quoting all that post, and with
"POTM" appended to the subject line.
--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

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From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 5/09/2025 7:05 am, Mark Isaak wrote:

On 9/3/25 5:36 AM, MarkE wrote:

In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and
informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.

Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL
RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500
Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>

If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:

"MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is
just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."

"MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so he
has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when they
are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.-a If the gaps did
not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that the gaps are
never going to be filled."

I think POTM is pretty much dead. At least, I have not been reading t.o. sedulously enough to track nominations, and there may not be enough
regulars left for a meaningful vote.

But if POTM were still viable, you would need to post the nomination as
a following to the nominated post, quoting all that post, and with
"POTM" appended to the subject line.

Agreed, I think POTM is pretty much dead, and TO itself is on life support.

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