From Newsgroup: sci.lang

Etymological dictionaries agree that the widely borrowed Latin
"cadaver" derives from "cadere" 'to fall', but they gloss over the
details. Where's the -v- from? I can't tell if this is simply
obvious--if you actually know Latin, which I don't--or genuinely
unknown.

Many perfect stems have -v-, but cadere has a reduplicating perfect,
cecidi. Also, the perfect -v- doesn't appear in participle stems,
I think, which would be the most likely source to derive a noun
from.

So how _is_ cadaver formed from cadere?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

On Sat, 17 May 2025 19:22:17 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

Etymological dictionaries agree that the widely borrowed Latin
"cadaver" derives from "cadere" 'to fall', but they gloss over the
details. Where's the -v- from? I can't tell if this is simply
obvious--if you actually know Latin, which I don't--or genuinely
unknown.

Many perfect stems have -v-, but cadere has a reduplicating perfect,
cecidi. Also, the perfect -v- doesn't appear in participle stems,
I think, which would be the most likely source to derive a noun
from.

So how _is_ cadaver formed from cadere?

_________________


One theory is that the -v- comes from analogy with other
Latin nouns ending in -ver or -vus (e.g., palaver, pulver from pulvis
"dust"). Latin sometimes inserts a -v- as a connective or euphonic
element.



Word (Root Suffix) Meaning

pulvis (pul- -vis) dust
suavis (su- -avis) sweet
clavis (cla- -vis) key
cadaver (cad- -aver) corpse
amavi (ama- -vi) I have loved
vocavi (voca- -vi) I have called



________________________


Reminds me of the question(s),

where does N in Javanese come from?

where does L in Congolese come from?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

On 18/05/2025 7:22 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:

Etymological dictionaries agree that the widely borrowed Latin
"cadaver" derives from "cadere" 'to fall', but they gloss over the
details. Where's the -v- from? I can't tell if this is simply
obvious--if you actually know Latin, which I don't--or genuinely
unknown.

Many perfect stems have -v-, but cadere has a reduplicating perfect,
cecidi. Also, the perfect -v- doesn't appear in participle stems,
I think, which would be the most likely source to derive a noun
from.

So how _is_ cadaver formed from cadere?

So far as my resources can take me, nobody seems to know.
The relation with cadere is taken as given in my Lat-Eng dictionary, but
OED says "perhaps".

But thank you for an excuse to get out my copy of Walde, Lateinisches Etymologisches W||rterbuch (1906) -- and pay tribute again to my old
friend Gloria, who (with me in mind) rescued it from a skip (dumpster)
outside the door of her neighbour, a recently deceased scholarly
Anglican clergyman.

Yes, well:

cad-Uver, -eris "Leichnam": wohl P.P.A. "der Gefallene" zu cad-Ubundus,
cado (s.d.) (Vani-iek 67, vgl. auch Schulze Qu.ep. 250 a 1). Bersus Gutt.
170 abweichende Verbindung mit der in cadamitas (s. calamitas)
vorliegenden Wz. von ai. kadanam "Vernichtung" u.s.w. ist
unwahrscheinlich, da ein P.P.A.dazu nur "vernichtet habend" bedeuten
w|+rde und eine andere Auffassung des Suffixes aussteht.

I thought of one other Latin noun in --Uver, namely pap-Uver 'poppy', but
it doesn't help much:

pap-Uver, -eris 'Mohn': wohl ptc.pf.act. *pap-U-u|!es "aufgeblasen, aufgedunsen" (Bildung wie cad-Uver) zu Wz. *pap- "aufblasen" in pampinus, papula (Vani-iek 154).


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote or quoted:

pap-Uver, -eris 'Mohn': wohl ptc.pf.act. *pap-U-u|!es "aufgeblasen, >aufgedunsen" (Bildung wie cad-Uver) zu Wz. *pap- "aufblasen" in pampinus, >papula (Vani-iek 154).

A guy quoted William Mitchell Ramsay, "Studies in the Roman Province
Galatia. VI.--Some Inscriptions of Colonia Caesarea Antiochea",
Journal of Roman Studies 14 (1924): 172-205 at 183 n.1 on a web forum:

|A poppy is carved on an altar of Hermes: the native name of
|opium was papa; papaver (cp. cadaver) is of Anatolian origin.
|Pappa meant father.

. Ramsay did not mention any specific sources for an Anatolian
origin there. But since that ending does not show up much in Latin,
it might be a loanword. Sometimes folks link it to the Indo-European
root "wer", but "wer" is really just a root, not a suffix.


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

HenHanna wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2025 19:22:17 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

Etymological dictionaries agree that the widely borrowed Latin
"cadaver" derives from "cadere" 'to fall', but they gloss over the
details.-a Where's the -v- from?-a I can't tell if this is simply
obvious--if you actually know Latin, which I don't--or genuinely
unknown.

Many perfect stems have -v-, but cadere has a reduplicating perfect,
cecidi.-a Also, the perfect -v- doesn't appear in participle stems,
I think, which would be the most likely source to derive a noun
from.

So how _is_ cadaver formed from cadere?

_________________

-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a One-a theory is that the -v- comes from analogy with other
Latin nouns ending in -ver or -vus (e.g., palaver, pulver from pulvis "dust"). Latin sometimes inserts a -v- as a connective or euphonic
element.

Word-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a (Root-a-a-a Suffix)-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Meaning

pulvis-a-a-a-a-a (pul--a-a-a -vis)-a-a-a-a-a-a-a dust
suavis-a-a-a-a-a (su--a-a-a -avis)-a-a-a-a-a-a sweet
clavis-a-a-a-a-a (cla--a-a-a -vis)-a-a-a-a-a-a-a key
cadaver-a-a-a-a-a (cad--a-a-a -aver)-a-a-a-a-a-a corpse
amavi-a-a-a-a-a-a (ama--a-a-a -vi)-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a I have loved vocavi-a-a-a-a-a (voca--a-a-a -vi)-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a I have called

________________________

-a-a Reminds me of the question(s),

-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a where does-a N-a in-a-a Javanese-a-a-a-a come from?

-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a where does-a L-a in-a-a Congolese-a-a-a come from?

Maybe "cadaver" is two conjoined words; "cado" + "averto".

Ed
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

it might be a loanword. Sometimes folks link it to the Indo-European
root "wer", but "wer" is really just a root, not a suffix.

Yeah, sometimes a root can wind up as a suffix. Both cadavers and
poppies can let out some fluid, and there is an Indo-European root
"w-o-r-" that means "liquid". (Just my own thought.) However, in Latin,
fluid from a poppy was actually called "latex".

purge fluid, putrefactive fluids, decomposition fluids

latex, poppy latex


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

it might be a loanword. Sometimes folks link it to the Indo-European
root "wer", but "wer" is really just a root, not a suffix.

Yeah, sometimes a root can wind up as a suffix. Both cadavers and
poppies can let out some fluid, and there is an Indo-European root
"w-o-r-" that means "liquid".

cadaver, papaver, river, ... But no! The English word "river"
comes from Middle English "rivere", from Anglo-Norman, from
Vulgar Latin *"r-2p-Uria", from Latin, feminine of "r-2p-Urius",
"of a bank", from "r-2pa", "bank".


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

On 2025-05-17, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

cad-Uver, -eris "Leichnam": wohl P.P.A. "der Gefallene" zu cad-Ubundus,
cado (s.d.) (Vani-iek 67, vgl. auch Schulze Qu.ep. 250 a 1).

pap-Uver, -eris 'Mohn': wohl ptc.pf.act. *pap-U-u|!es "aufgeblasen, aufgedunsen" (Bildung wie cad-Uver) zu Wz. *pap- "aufblasen" in pampinus, papula (Vani-iek 154).

The "participle perfect active" is confusing, because Latin verbs
don't have such a category. I guess it refers to an older formation
that would only exist in relic forms in Latin. I see that a
participle in *-wos- ~ *-us- is reconstructed for the PIE stative.

I don't understand why such a formation wouldn't require a perfect
stem.

Here's what de Vaan's _Etymological Dictionary of Latin_ (2008)
says. I missed that initially because cadaver doesn't have its
own entry and is treated under cad+i:

The form of cadaver is difficult to explain. WH assume a ppa.
*kad-U-wes- rCyhaving fallenrCO, which is fine semantically; but where
would -U come from, and why would the neuter form have been
lexicalized?

No entry for pap-Uver.


PS:
The entry for cad+i also mentions IE cognates Gr. +|+|+|+#+|-A++ rCyrobbingrCO, -i-Cb++ ... +|+|+|+4+|++++-a++ rCythey recededrCO [I may have butchered the diacritics]
and further says:
The appurtenance of Gr. pf. +|+|+|+#+|- is disputed: rCyto recederCO may
have developed from rCyto fall backrCO, but this would probably imply
that the active forms are secondary.

Whatever. But "appurtenance"? That's not the right word, is it?
I think we're looking for a derivative of "appertain", but English
dictionaries seem rather mum there. Simply "pertinence"?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.lang

On 2025-05-18, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

cadaver, papaver, river, ... But no! The English word "river"
comes from Middle English "rivere", from Anglo-Norman, from
Vulgar Latin *"r-2p-Uria", from Latin, feminine of "r-2p-Urius",
"of a bank", from "r-2pa", "bank".

A few kilometers south from here, the town of Altrip derives its
name from Alta Ripa, 'high river bank', the designation of a Roman
fort founded in 369.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2