Sysop: | Amessyroom |
---|---|
Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
Users: | 23 |
Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
Uptime: | 54:28:29 |
Calls: | 583 |
Files: | 1,139 |
D/L today: |
179 files (27,921K bytes) |
Messages: | 111,799 |
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
On 26/08/2025 12:02 pm, john larkin wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
What's your proposed alternative?
Your problem is that you want your attentuators to operate at power
levels they weren't designed to handle. A short, very high current pulse >delivers a moderate amount of energy in a very short time, which is a >spectacular amount of power. The limited area that has to handle it gets >blown away.
Laser trimming exploit a similar process to blow away limited areas of >resistive material. The laser pulse is brief, so all the energy is >concentrated in the area under the beam, and evaporates the surface of
the target area, without getting the substrate hot enough to damage it.
On 26/08/2025 12:02 pm, john larkin wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
What's your proposed alternative?
Your problem is that you want your attentuators to operate at power
levels they weren't designed to handle. A short, very high current pulse
delivers a moderate amount of energy in a very short time, which is a
spectacular amount of power. The limited area that has to handle it gets
blown away.
Laser trimming exploit a similar process to blow away limited areas of
resistive material. The laser pulse is brief, so all the energy is
concentrated in the area under the beam, and evaporates the surface of
the target area, without getting the substrate hot enough to damage it.
Somehow it reminds me of school days long ago where somebody made a light dimmer
by decapitating a fluorescent tube and filling it with a salty water solution.
Lower a piece of metal in it to control the light / current.
Variable resister.
Use it together with a small fixed resistor in series for output.
Now HUGE pulses will dissipate in the water, no damage.
https://canonbase.eu/wiki/Making_a_Salt_Water_Dimmer
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality.
Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the
ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's
plenty for testing purposes.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality.
Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the
ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt
pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding
next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality. >>>Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the
ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>>plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt >>pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding
next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
So the reason you need 6Ghz BW is just to preserve those fast edges?
Because obviously it's that high BW that's making these things
expensive. Esp high BW combined with high power.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 10:47:03 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality. >>>>Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the >>>>ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>>>plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt >>>pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding >>>next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
So the reason you need 6Ghz BW is just to preserve those fast edges? >>Because obviously it's that high BW that's making these things
expensive. Esp high BW combined with high power.
We want to be able to measure, say, 1 ns rise times accurately and
make pretty pictures of our lovely pulses without the atten adding
ringing. Realistically, 2 GHz would be OK.
6 GHz attenuators, like the VAT series, are cheap. But they don't
survive 600 volt 100ns pulses. And being thick-film, they have rotten
voltage coefficients so are inaccurate in measuring voltage.
Here's the guts of a VAT-20.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsk5os0hurourqd60myv0/VAT-20.JPG?rlkey=bh6idhj33xfe98sdmtgumbfri&raw=1
The gold dot in the center is interesting.
Thickfilms are (literally) flakey enough, and then the laser trimming
makes them much worse. If we do our own attens, they will have to be >untrimmed thin films.
The atten I have in mind would be an astounding numerical problem to
design. I'll use an intern.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 10:47:03 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality.
Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the
ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>>> plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt
pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding
next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
So the reason you need 6Ghz BW is just to preserve those fast edges?
Because obviously it's that high BW that's making these things
expensive. Esp high BW combined with high power.
We want to be able to measure, say, 1 ns rise times accurately and
make pretty pictures of our lovely pulses without the atten adding
ringing. Realistically, 2 GHz would be OK.
6 GHz attenuators, like the VAT series, are cheap. But they don't
survive 600 volt 100ns pulses. And being thick-film, they have rotten
voltage coefficients so are inaccurate in measuring voltage.
Here's the guts of a VAT-20.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsk5os0hurourqd60myv0/VAT-20.JPG?rlkey=bh6idhj33xfe98sdmtgumbfri&raw=1
The gold dot in the center is interesting.
Thickfilms are (literally) flakey enough, and then the laser trimming
makes them much worse. If we do our own attens, they will have to be untrimmed thin films.
The atten I have in mind would be an astounding numerical problem to
design. I'll use an intern.
On 31/08/2025 16:11, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 10:47:03 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>> wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality.
Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the
ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>>>> plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt >>>> pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding
next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
So the reason you need 6Ghz BW is just to preserve those fast edges?
Because obviously it's that high BW that's making these things
expensive. Esp high BW combined with high power.
We want to be able to measure, say, 1 ns rise times accurately and
make pretty pictures of our lovely pulses without the atten adding
ringing. Realistically, 2 GHz would be OK.
6 GHz attenuators, like the VAT series, are cheap. But they don't
survive 600 volt 100ns pulses. And being thick-film, they have rotten
voltage coefficients so are inaccurate in measuring voltage.
Here's the guts of a VAT-20.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsk5os0hurourqd60myv0/VAT-20.JPG?rlkey=bh6idhj33xfe98sdmtgumbfri&raw=1
The gold dot in the center is interesting.
Thickfilms are (literally) flakey enough, and then the laser trimming
makes them much worse. If we do our own attens, they will have to be
untrimmed thin films.
The atten I have in mind would be an astounding numerical problem to
design. I'll use an intern.
The gold dot might be a manufacturing test point.
Could you use a coaxial transmission line transformer to reduce the
voltage before a more conventional attenuator?
John
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 08:11:12 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 10:47:03 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom >>>><cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lv5cuqq2zav9r2ijlx6mr/Ex_20w_1.jpg?rlkey=ui15baw9lylvzfsscjen5szvq&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/64du6lv1hpgyafg0rws2l/Ex_20w_2.jpg?rlkey=vouuaqmqdj68im6jp1fclnr27&raw=1
That's not a pi or a tee, but just two blobs of stuff.
Laser trimming is evil.
6Ghz/10W? Seems rather optimistic given the construction quality. >>>>>Chinese, I presume? Why do you need 10W attenuators anyway? All the >>>>>ones I use for RF testing won't take more than +10 dbm and even that's >>>>>plenty for testing purposes.
We're making a high voltage pulse generator. It's making fast 650 volt >>>>pulses now, and we expect 1KV when we get our new transformer winding >>>>next week.
Even at low avearge power, it eats attenuators. We may have to make
our own.
I can buy suitable attens, for $1500 to $5K each.
So the reason you need 6Ghz BW is just to preserve those fast edges? >>>Because obviously it's that high BW that's making these things
expensive. Esp high BW combined with high power.
We want to be able to measure, say, 1 ns rise times accurately and
make pretty pictures of our lovely pulses without the atten adding
ringing. Realistically, 2 GHz would be OK.
Well that should bring the price down somewhat anyway.
6 GHz attenuators, like the VAT series, are cheap. But they don't
survive 600 volt 100ns pulses. And being thick-film, they have rotten >>voltage coefficients so are inaccurate in measuring voltage.
Here's the guts of a VAT-20.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsk5os0hurourqd60myv0/VAT-20.JPG?rlkey=bh6idhj33xfe98sdmtgumbfri&raw=1
The gold dot in the center is interesting.
Yeah, I've no idea what that might be for (if anything). At any rate,
the internals of that one look much better manufactured than the first
pix you posted on this topic.
Thickfilms are (literally) flakey enough, and then the laser trimming
makes them much worse. If we do our own attens, they will have to be >>untrimmed thin films.
The atten I have in mind would be an astounding numerical problem to >>design. I'll use an intern.
They become a serious PITA as you go higher in frequency and power. I
wish you the best of British luck! Please keep us informed how
progress goes. I suspect it might prove a bit too challenging for the
average intern, though.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 18:40:35 +0100, John R Walliker
<jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31/08/2025 16:11, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 10:47:03 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:47:52 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 00:32:11 +0100, Cursitor Doom
<cd6699@notformail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 19:02:59 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>> wrote:
I guess, if we could trust it. That would be another whole project.