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On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |ore4rCL Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |ore4rCL Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty
-+-+Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
Germany|ore4raos Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising Germany|ore4raos digital sovereignty is a process that cannot happen |ore4+oat the push of a button.|ore4?
-+-+Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as risky due to the |ore4+ozigzag course|ore4? of US President Donald Trump|ore4raos administration,
which has created uncertainty over Washington|ore4raos policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. France|ore4raos police,
Denmark|ore4raos Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs. India|ore4raos Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
There are no nationalist issues. Microsoft is garbage and google is
evil.
Some days we'll have reliable computers and reliable software. For
everyone.
Text: Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported. The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
GermanyrCOs Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends
to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in government operations, according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild, the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace
Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office
with LibreOffice, Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook
with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird. The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is possible.
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond this point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly introducing (or exposing) others.So what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugs is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for allAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is possible.
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
As you know there's an European Union and even your hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond thisSo what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly
introducing (or exposing) others.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugsAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such >> packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/>
Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the >> sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
to audit it for you is provably effective.
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is possible.
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes aAs you know there's an European Union and even your
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus. There is nothing that requires one to interoperate
with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.). How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond thisSo what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly
introducing (or exposing) others.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and accountability.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugsAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such
packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> >>> Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the >>> sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
to audit it for you is provably effective.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the development
of chronic diseases. "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective. If you are going to expose your enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or, limit
what you expose to those things that have the least impact on your
viability as a company.
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability. It just
lets you pretend that you can do something about it.
But, you likely won't. How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits?
How effective are they atit?
MS (Apple) have the advantage that they have mechanisms in place to
address "issues" and certification programs to push that expertise into
the market.
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
possible.
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
As you know there's an European Union and even your hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus.-a There is nothing that requires one to interoperate
with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond thisSo what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly
introducing (or exposing) others.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and accountability.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the numberAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
of bugs
is provably naive.-a (There are known bugs discovered to have resided
in such
packages dating back 15 years!-a <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> >>> Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code;-a "Well, it's
worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!")-a Even moreso for folks with NO eyes
on the
sources!-a ("I just wanna drive the bus").
to audit it for you is provably effective.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the development
of chronic diseases.-a "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective.-a If you are going to expose your enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or, limit
what you expose to those things that have the least impact on your
viability as a company.
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability.-a It just
lets you pretend that you can do something about it.
But, you likely won't.-a How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits?-a How effective are they at it?
MS (Apple) have the advantage that they have mechanisms in place to
address "issues" and certification programs to push that expertise into
the market.
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |o-C-o Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |o-C-o Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software
in pursuit of digital sovereignty
-+-+Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of
open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their
digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
Germany|o-C-Os Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it
intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source
software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to
Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. >>
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is
phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud,
Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including
teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising Germany|o-C-Os digital sovereignty is a >> process that cannot happen |o-C-Lat the push of a button.|o-C?
-+-+Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as
risky due to the |o-C-Lzigzag course|o-C? of US President Donald Trump|o-C-Os administration,
which has created uncertainty over Washington|o-C-Os policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. France|o-C-Os police,
Denmark|o-C-Os Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain
have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs.
India|o-C-Os Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based
platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed
software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict
in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed
operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers
underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
There are no nationalist issues. Microsoft is garbage and google is
evil.
Some days we'll have reliable computers and reliable software. For
everyone.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is possible. >>
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
But the people in the political decisions we're discussing did. It's the people they hired who briefed the politicians in this matter in the first place.
I haven't saved the discrete EU organization links but the FSFE page is
a good entry point for those articles.
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes aAs you know there's an European Union and even your
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus. There is nothing that requires one to interoperate
with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite
others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.). How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
Open source has nothing to do with that, same argument can be made for switching proprietary vendors. It's called 'vendor lock-in'.
The Linux environment has avoided that better and is currently
an informal standard across many platforms.
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond this >>>> point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly >>>> introducing (or exposing) others.So what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and accountability.
How does public source code hinder that? Rather than merely
trusting the vendor you can observe development practices at any time ensuring there is discipline and accountability.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugsAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such
packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> >>>> Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the >>>> sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
to audit it for you is provably effective.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the development
of chronic diseases. "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective. If you are going to expose your
enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or, limit
what you expose to those things that have the least impact on your
viability as a company.
What does that have to do with code licensing? At worst you
get the same negligence you might have gotten from a bad proprietary
vendor and at best you can actually secure your enterprise by auditing
the code.
What $tep$ protect one from an irresponsible proprietary vendor?
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability. It just
lets you pretend that you can do something about it.
Its? Whose? And "pretend"?
But, you likely won't. How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits?
And again the licensing of the code does not exclude commercial
contracts. There can PAID STAFF either on the development side, the user
side or both. An open project can also disregard
How effective are they atit?
MS (Apple) have the advantage that they have mechanisms in place to
address "issues" and certification programs to push that expertise into
the market.
Which mechanisms? Microsoft just two years ago had a massive breach of security on their cloud offering:
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/stolen-microsoft-key-offered-widespread-access-to-microsoft-cloud-services/
Not only did nothing come out of it they were as opaque as they could be. There have been many recent large breaches of Microsoft services (more
than is polite to link, use a search engine) and
their disgraceful and dishonest handling of them it's clear your
argument is disconnected from reality. Their company isn't any less
viable as a result of their trivial mistakes and their terrible disclosure.
Where do you see "discipline and accountability"?
How effective are those mechanisms after all?
If you want a secure service you have to invest in it, no surprise.
That's true for both proprietary and open solutions.
With proprietary services the only option is to leave and that's what
these customers are doing.
With open software not only can you audit the development but you also
can switch developers and keep the code, licensing allowing for forks.
Rather than fretting about interoperability nations and institutions can create software jointly (which is what is being arranged) and design in
their mutual needs.
Your invalid argument rests on entities hiring services and not
securing them, the good faith of proprietary vendors and magical
thinking.
In reality FOSS software is not fundamentally compromised. The amount of
FOSS software that's involved on the transmission of these messages is proof enough of
that. Internet rests on NGINX and Apache just fine, Linux and BSD are widespread in secure applications and so on... Every major corporation integrates FOSS software in their product nowadays.
Having Microsoft accountable doesn't actually mean anything.
On 8/24/2025 5:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Having Microsoft accountable doesn't actually mean anything.
Who do you call when your FOSS box misbehaves?
You post a message on a forum and HOPE someone has an interest in
it, has seen it before, or is feeling "helpful", today.
But, there is nothing you can really do to get it fixed.
-a No one
"certified" and INVESTED in the business of helping you
(not just doing it to see if they can make a living at it
and actually just forwarding your comments to a forum,
somewhere, and acting on the advice given there).
When you don't support your product, people find alternatives.
Or, simply live without the service that you claim to provide.
These changes don't have to happen overnight.-a There is lag
inherent in the system.
I don't use MS applications.-a And, advocate for alternatives
among my colleagues and the businessmen that I know.-a My
goal isn't to bankrupt MS (Apple).-a Rather, it is to get
the most value from the tools that I *do* use (as well
as those that I recommend to others).
I show people how *I* work -- where the amount of "staff"
I have available to attend to "overhead" is nil.
If they
can see the discipline that I apply to be a reasonable
"burden" for them, then they can make a similar switch
and likely achieve similar results.-a If not, they stay on their
same treadmill (and likely continue earning at the same rate
they've been to date).
On 8/24/2025 5:24 PM, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will >>>>> be your "free support"?)
possible.
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
But the people in the political decisions we're discussing did. It's the
people they hired who briefed the politicians in this matter in the
first place.
I haven't saved the discrete EU organization links but the FSFE page is
a good entry point for those articles.
So, there's a GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED distribution?-a Anyone wanting to do business with the government has to maintain a compatible system?
What does that do to innovation?-a And privacy (sure, I trust the gummit
not to have embeded some back door that lets them spy on my system, communications, etc.)
[E.g., FOSS that one would imagine to be largely uncrippled have been
shown to have exploits in their implementations.-a Little consolation
to someone to discover that and close the loophole GOING FORWARD...
and wondering what past transactions are now transparent!]
"You" (they) are just opting to replace one monolith with another.
Are you sure code contributed by Hungary will be just as clean as
code contributed by The Netherlands?
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes aAs you know there's an European Union and even your
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus.-a There is nothing that requires one to interoperate
with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite
others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
Open source has nothing to do with that, same argument can be made for
switching proprietary vendors. It's called 'vendor lock-in'.
Interoperability relies on concensus.-a (read my comment, above).
If any party has the ability and legal right to make a change that
defies that concensus, it can.-a Will there be a certification
authority for FrancoOS that meets quarterly with the authority
for ItaloOS to discuss which changes and additions should be
incorporated in the next/bug release?
The Linux environment has avoided that better and is currently
an informal standard across many platforms.
Because it is informal.-a Because no one FORCES anyone to do anything.
It hangs together BY CONCENSUS.
When Italy makes a decision and settles on distro X (because the kernel,
by itself, is pretty useless), how do they co-operate with France's
decision to use distro Y?
[Remember, YOU mentioned the EU]
Microsoft is the "formal" standard around the world (currently).
This avoids these "lack of concensus" issues.
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyondSo what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
this
point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and
possibly
introducing (or exposing) others.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and accountability.
How does public source code hinder that? Rather than merely
trusting the vendor you can observe development practices at any time
ensuring there is discipline and accountability.
CAN doesn't mean WILL.-a To all intents and purposes, 95% of users are
just as clueless AND RELIANT ON SOME OTHER ENTITY FOR SUPPORT with
Linux as they would be with MS.
Look, you're preaching to the choir.-a I've been running NetBSD/OpenBSD/FreeBSD
since 1993.-a Precisely because the tasks that were most important to me weren't being supported (by MS) in a manner that didn't just trade one old set of bugs for a NEW set of bugs.
Moving to FOSS tools let me *patch* the bugs that were giving me problems WITHOUT forcing me to accept a whole slew of new code (bugs).
OTOH, FOSS applications have seriously lagged those available under
Windows.
Often by decades.-a I can forgive a *lot* of MS's folly for the amount of money they enabled me to make WAITING for FOSS tools to be comparably competent.
FOSS lets me sidestep MS in cases where they constrain me irrationally.
Yet, allows me to leverage commercial tools that FOSS still can't address.
[Of course, if you have short arms and deep pockets, then the FOSS *cost* probably becomes an overwhelming advantage; if you're unwilling to spend
$5K for a tool, then limp along with whatever you can get "for free"]
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces theAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone >>>> to audit it for you is provably effective.
number of bugs
is provably naive.-a (There are known bugs discovered to have
resided in such
packages dating back 15 years!
<https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/>
Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code;-a "Well, it's
worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!")-a Even moreso for folks with NO eyes >>>>> on the
sources!-a ("I just wanna drive the bus").
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the development >>> of chronic diseases.-a "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective.-a If you are going to expose your
enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or, limit
what you expose to those things that have the least impact on your
viability as a company.
What does that have to do with code licensing? At worst you
get the same negligence you might have gotten from a bad proprietary
vendor and at best you can actually secure your enterprise by auditing
the code.
What $tep$ protect one from an irresponsible proprietary vendor?
The fact that you have AN ALTERNATE vendor.-a What protects you from
bad "Linux" (et al) implementation/design decisions?-a Roll your own?
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability.-a It just
lets you pretend that you can do something about it.
Its? Whose? And "pretend"?
FOSS is inherently just as vulnerable as closed source.-a "Pretend"
in that you want to tell yourself you *can* audit the code.-a But,
you won't.
Just like you won't exercise and change your diet (even though nothing
is PREVENTING you from doing so).
But, you likely won't.-a How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits?
And again the licensing of the code does not exclude commercial
contracts. There can PAID STAFF either on the development side, the user
side or both. An open project can also disregard
BUT THERE AREN'T.-a Hands up:-a how many folks run Linux and PAY someone to keep their system secure and bug free?-a Do you even contribute bug
reports and patches as a form of support/payment?
Ideals don't mean squat.-a There should never have been more than "one"
case of AIDS -- there is no cost to just saying "no" or using a condom.
So, the ideal has no real impact on the actual.
How effective are they atit?
MS (Apple) have the advantage that they have mechanisms in place to
address "issues" and certification programs to push that expertise into
the market.
Which mechanisms? Microsoft just two years ago had a massive breach of
security on their cloud offering:
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/stolen-microsoft-key-offered-widespread-access-to-microsoft-cloud-services/
Not only did nothing come out of it they were as opaque as they could be.
There have been many recent large breaches of Microsoft services (more
than is polite to link, use a search engine) and
their disgraceful and dishonest handling of them it's clear your
argument is disconnected from reality. Their company isn't any less
viable as a result of their trivial mistakes and their terrible
disclosure.
Gee, a (another!) *nation* is talking about dropping their product. Product*S*.-a I'm sure they are all rejoicing at MS headquarters (not).
Where do you see "discipline and accountability"?
How effective are those mechanisms after all?
Discipline applies to the FOSS user.-a *HE* has to be responsible for maintaining his own security.-a Keeping on top of bugs and exploits.
PAYING someone (on staff or a service) to do this as a *cost* of
using the product.
MS (Apple) have people who are at least TRYING to keep on top of
their product.
If you want a secure service you have to invest in it, no surprise.
That's true for both proprietary and open solutions.
That infrastructure is already in place for commercial offerings.
*You* have to discipline yourself to find such a provider and
"subscribe" for FOSS tools.
For *EVERY* tool, not just the kernel.
With proprietary services the only option is to leave and that's what
these customers are doing.
With open software not only can you audit the development but you also
can switch developers and keep the code, licensing allowing for forks.
Again, CAN and DO are two different realities.-a I use PostgreSQL in
my current product.-a I actively track the development to see:
- where it is headed
- how performance is evolving
- what vulnerabilities exist
It will not run on my OS.-a So, I have to be *intimately* familiar
with it's implementation in order to port it -- when it has reached
a level of service that I deem "good enough" going forward (because
I don't intend to keep tracking -CURRENT with my port).
Wanna bet that I'm an outlier in this?-a And, that most folks just
run some release and update it <whenever>?
Rather than fretting about interoperability nations and institutions can
create software jointly (which is what is being arranged) and design in
their mutual needs.
Until some "personality" infects that group of nations.-a What's to
say a Trump-populist doesn't get established in Belgium?-a Or Germany?
Canada and the US did things jointly -- until they didn't.
Your invalid argument rests on entities hiring services and not
securing them, the good faith of proprietary vendors and magical
thinking.
In reality FOSS software is not fundamentally compromised. The amount of
FOSS software that's involved on the transmission of these messages is
proof enough of
that. Internet rests on NGINX and Apache just fine, Linux and BSD are
widespread in secure applications and so on... Every major corporation
integrates FOSS software in their product nowadays.
Every major corporation integrates MS/Apple software in their product nowadays.
Why?
On 8/22/2025 11:12 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Text: Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild Berlin has >> begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of >> digital sovereignty Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in >> favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported. The move has come as >> countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce >> dependence on American technology firms.
This may prove to be foolhardy. FOSS isn't a panacea. And, in general, the >quality of FOSS is roughly the same as that of commercial software. With
the added DISadvantage that no one is accountable for the FOSS product
(the author of a commercial offering has their reputation at stake).
GermanyrCOs Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends
to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in
government operations, according to the report, which was released on
Wednesday. In a statement to Bild, the ministry said it is already testing >> Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace
Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
The bigger the package, the more likely it is to rely on "support".
An *enviable* bug rate of 1 per KLOC would mean there are literally
thousands of latent bugs waiting to bite the user.
And: ><https://www.highgear.com/blog/security-process-for-open-source-components/> ><https://www.techtarget.com/searchsecurity/news/366616699/FOSS-security-concerns-increase-amid-widespread-adoption>
etc. means thinking FOSS "contributors" to be benevolent entities is
such an out-of-date concept that it is laughable.
[How many people would have faith in YOUR product(s) if the designs
were open and, thus, subvertable?]
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is
phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office
with LibreOffice, Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook
with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird. The program covers tens of
thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police >> officers.
Just the sort of ripe environment for malware to gleefully propagate.
Let Linux (or any other FOSS OS) rise to be the most popular OS and you'll >see it have the most malware infestations! Of course, when the "decision >makers" are ignorant of the technological risks, it's easy to thump a
chest in the name of "national sovereignty", security, etc.
<https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/cybersecurity-advisories/aa24-317a> ><https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/259255/what-is-the-frequency-of-open-security-bugs-in-an-operating-system-with-incr
easi> ><https://www.guidepointsecurity.com/blog/grits-2025-report-annual-vulnerability-analysis-and-exploitation-trends/>
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond this >point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly >introducing (or exposing) others.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugs >is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such >packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> >Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all >these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the >sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
possible.
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
The wafer testers run Red Hat Linux which is excellent.
RedHat support costs an arm and a leg but is worth every penny.
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
Do you see it as a problem to tag the relevant language packs?
That is so retro. 30 years?
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite
others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
That was not Microsoft, that was IBM. On the 370 command line, the '/' denotes an option and IBM still had the illusion that they would be
king of the hill forever.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the number of bugs
is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered to have resided in such >> packages dating back 15 years! <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/>
Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on the >> sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus").
Nothing is 100% secure, reminds me of my hacking days.
But Nanosoft eeeh microsoft can build in bugs and security holes that specifically target the EU.
Like that shithole in the darkhouse does and pushes for.
Long ago I ran win 3.1 on top of DRDOS
The first mistake nanosoft made, was integrate the real OS into the GUI, market protection to stop DR DOS.
Open source and Linux gives you a million choices, includung writing your own stuff.
Freedom, something US seems to be losing with that dictator.
I want no part of it, and Germany does not want to be part of it.
For sure when that darkhouse clown keeps going, soon the V7 will wake him up.
On 8/25/2025 1:51 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
The wafer testers run Red Hat Linux which is excellent.
RedHat support costs an arm and a leg but is worth every penny.
Thinking you can just adopt a different software platform and reduce >(eliminate?) your dependence on the "US tech giants" is pretty naive.
Just like developing your own fighter jets or nuclear weapons.
On 8/25/2025 1:51 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
The wafer testers run Red Hat Linux which is excellent.
RedHat support costs an arm and a leg but is worth every penny.
So, you've replaced one vendor with another.-a FOSS falls out of
the calculus.
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
Do you see it as a problem to tag the relevant language packs?
That is so retro. 30 years?
Not language packs but, rather, different ideas as to how things should
work and be structured.-a Or, does germany *dictate* what the rest
of the EU should use?-a How does that differ from yet another MS?
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite
others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
That was not Microsoft, that was IBM. On the 370 command line, the '/'
denotes an option and IBM still had the illusion that they would be
king of the hill forever.
And before that, MULTICS used '>'.-a I could put a ':' in a filename.
Or even a '?' (still possible under NTFS but a nighmare to access/modify)
The point is, there are lots of "conventions" in OSs that are relatively arbitrary decisions.-a Will the OS police insist that each "sovereign
nation" adopt some common approach in their MODIFIED FOSS OS?-a Will the folks responsible for the "standards" that THEIR country's OS adopts be willing to make those concessions?-a "But we were here first!..."
How will they handle those users and businesses that want to stick
with that US-based product?-a And, anything else that relies on it?
If a software product is developed in the US and runs on USOS -- and
the author expresses no desire to make a port to "ItaloOS", doesn't
that coerce the Italians into running USOS -- if they want to avail themselves of the features offered by that product?-a Or, is the
plan to simply try to reinvent every wheel and cripple your
economy in the name of NIH?
Look at how easy it is (NOT!) to adapt to tariffs... just abandon
the US market (as a seller) and develop your own compatible products
for all US offerings (as a buyer).-a Easy peasy!-a Why all the fuss?
Thinking you can just adopt a different software platform and reduce (eliminate?) your dependence on the "US tech giants" is pretty naive.
Just like developing your own fighter jets or nuclear weapons.
But the people in the political decisions we're discussing did. It's
the people they hired who briefed the politicians in this matter in
the first place. I haven't saved the discrete EU organization links
but the FSFE page is a good entry point for those articles.
So, there's a GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED distribution? Anyone wanting to do business with the government has to maintain a compatible system? What
does that do to innovation? And privacy (sure, I trust the gummit not
to have embeded some back door that lets them spy on my system, communications, etc.)
[E.g., FOSS that one would imagine to be largely uncrippled have been
shown to have exploits in their implementations. Little consolation to someone to discover that and close the loophole GOING FORWARD... and wondering what past transactions are now transparent!]
"You" (they) are just opting to replace one monolith with another. Are
you sure code contributed by Hungary will be just as clean as code contributed by The Netherlands?
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS? When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change? How many
tails wagging how many dogs??] >>>> As you know there's an
European Union and even your >>>> hypothetical OS's >>>> are
probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus. There is nothing that requires one to
interoperate with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter --
despite others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.). How many
similarly arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as
"correct for us"? >> Open source has nothing to do with that, same
argument can >> be made for >> switching proprietary vendors. It's
called 'vendor lock-in'.
Interoperability relies on concensus. (read my comment, above). If any
party has the ability and legal right to make a change that defies
that concensus, it can. Will there be a certification authority for
FrancoOS that meets quarterly with the authority for ItaloOS to
discuss which changes and additions should be incorporated in the
next/bug release?
The Linux environment has avoided that better and is currently an
informal standard across many platforms.
Because it is informal. Because no one FORCES anyone to do anything.
It hangs together BY CONCENSUS.
When Italy makes a decision and settles on distro X (because the
kernel, by itself, is pretty useless), how do they co-operate with
France's decision to use distro Y?
[Remember, YOU mentioned the EU]
Microsoft is the "formal" standard around the world (currently). This
avoids these "lack of concensus" issues.
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond
this point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one
and possibly introducing (or exposing) others. >>>> So what,
release format have nothing to do with code openness.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and
accountability.
How does public source code hinder that? Rather than merely trusting
the vendor you can observe development practices at any time ensuring
there is discipline and accountability.
CAN doesn't mean WILL. To all intents and purposes, 95% of users are
just as clueless AND RELIANT ON SOME OTHER ENTITY FOR SUPPORT with
Linux as they would be with MS.
Look, you're preaching to the choir. I've been running
NetBSD/OpenBSD/FreeBSD since 1993. Precisely because the tasks that
were most important to me weren't being supported (by MS) in a manner
that didn't just trade one old set of bugs for a NEW set of bugs.
Moving to FOSS tools let me *patch* the bugs that were giving me
problems WITHOUT forcing me to accept a whole slew of new code (bugs).
OTOH, FOSS applications have seriously lagged those available under
Windows. Often by decades. I can forgive a *lot* of MS's folly for the
amount of money they enabled me to make WAITING for FOSS tools to be comparably competent.
FOSS lets me sidestep MS in cases where they constrain me
irrationally. Yet, allows me to leverage commercial tools that FOSS
still can't address.
[Of course, if you have short arms and deep pockets, then the FOSS
*cost* probably becomes an overwhelming advantage; if you're unwilling
to spend $5K for a tool, then limp along with whatever you can get
"for free"]
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the
number of bugs is provably naive. (There are known bugs discovered
to have resided in such packages dating back 15 years!
<https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> Obviously, no one is
ACTIVELY critiquing the code; "Well, it's worked for all these
years so it MUST be OK!") Even moreso for folks with NO eyes on
the sources! ("I just wanna drive the bus"). >>>> And the notion
that access to the source code means you can pay someone >>>> to
audit it for you is provably effective.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the
development of chronic diseases. "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective. If you are going to expose
your enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or,
limit what you expose to those things that have the least impact on
your viability as a company. >> What does that have to do with code
licensing? At worst >> you >> get the same negligence you might have
gotten from a bad proprietary >> vendor and at best you can actually
secure your enterprise by auditing >> the code. >> What $tep$
protect one from an irresponsible proprietary vendor?
The fact that you have AN ALTERNATE vendor. What protects you from bad "Linux" (et al) implementation/design decisions? Roll your own?
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability. It just lets
you pretend that you can do something about it. >> Its? Whose? And
"pretend"?
FOSS is inherently just as vulnerable as closed source. "Pretend" in
that you want to tell yourself you *can* audit the code. But, you
won't.
Just like you won't exercise and change your diet (even though nothing
is PREVENTING you from doing so).
But, you likely won't. How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits? >> And again the licensing
of the code does not exclude >> commercial >> contracts. There can
PAID STAFF either on the development side, the user >> side or both.
An open project can also disregard
BUT THERE AREN'T. Hands up: how many folks run Linux and PAY someone
to keep their system secure and bug free? Do you even contribute bug
reports and patches as a form of support/payment?
Ideals don't mean squat. There should never have been more than "one"
case of AIDS -- there is no cost to just saying "no" or using a
condom. So, the ideal has no real impact on the actual.
How effective are they atit? MS (Apple) have the advantage that they
have mechanisms in place to address "issues" and certification
programs to push that expertise into the market. >> Which
mechanisms? Microsoft just two years ago had a >> massive breach of
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/stolen-microsoft-key-offered-widespread-access-to-microsoft-cloud-services/security on their cloud offering: >>
they could be. >> There have been many recent large breaches ofNot only did nothing come out of it they were as opaque as >>
Microsoft services (more >> than is polite to link, use a search
engine) and >> their disgraceful and dishonest handling of them it's
clear your >> argument is disconnected from reality. Their company
isn't any less >> viable as a result of their trivial mistakes and
their terrible disclosure.
Gee, a (another!) *nation* is talking about dropping their product. Product*S*. I'm sure they are all rejoicing at MS headquarters (not).
Where do you see "discipline and accountability"? How effective are
those mechanisms after all?
Discipline applies to the FOSS user. *HE* has to be responsible for maintaining his own security. Keeping on top of bugs and exploits.
PAYING someone (on staff or a service) to do this as a *cost* of using
the product.
MS (Apple) have people who are at least TRYING to keep on top of their product.
If you want a secure service you have to invest in it, no surprise.
That's true for both proprietary and open solutions.
That infrastructure is already in place for commercial offerings.
*You* have to discipline yourself to find such a provider and
"subscribe" for FOSS tools.
For *EVERY* tool, not just the kernel.
With proprietary services the only option is to leave and that's what
these customers are doing. With open software not only can you audit
the development but you also can switch developers and keep the code,
licensing allowing for forks.
Again, CAN and DO are two different realities. I use PostgreSQL in my
current product. I actively track the development to see: - where it
is headed - how performance is evolving - what vulnerabilities exist
It will not run on my OS. So, I have to be *intimately* familiar with
it's implementation in order to port it -- when it has reached a level
of service that I deem "good enough" going forward (because I don't
intend to keep tracking -CURRENT with my port).
Wanna bet that I'm an outlier in this? And, that most folks just run
some release and update it <whenever>?
Rather than fretting about interoperability nations and institutions
can create software jointly (which is what is being arranged) and
design in their mutual needs.
Until some "personality" infects that group of nations. What's to say
a Trump-populist doesn't get established in Belgium? Or Germany?
Canada and the US did things jointly -- until they didn't.
Your invalid argument rests on entities hiring services and not
securing them, the good faith of proprietary vendors and magical
thinking. In reality FOSS software is not fundamentally compromised.
The amount of FOSS software that's involved on the transmission of
these messages is proof enough of that. Internet rests on NGINX and
Apache just fine, Linux and BSD are widespread in secure applications
and so on... Every major corporation integrates FOSS software in
their product nowadays.
Every major corporation integrates MS/Apple software in their product nowadays. Why?
On 8/24/2025 5:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Having Microsoft accountable doesn't actually mean anything.
Who do you call when your FOSS box misbehaves?
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or
at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
But the people in the political decisions we're discussing did. It's
the people they hired who briefed the politicians in this matter in
the first place. I haven't saved the discrete EU organization links
but the FSFE page is a good entry point for those articles.
So, there's a GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED distribution? Anyone wanting to do
business with the government has to maintain a compatible system? What
does that do to innovation? And privacy (sure, I trust the gummit not
to have embeded some back door that lets them spy on my system,
communications, etc.)
[E.g., FOSS that one would imagine to be largely uncrippled have been
shown to have exploits in their implementations. Little consolation to
someone to discover that and close the loophole GOING FORWARD... and
wondering what past transactions are now transparent!]
"You" (they) are just opting to replace one monolith with another. Are
you sure code contributed by Hungary will be just as clean as code
contributed by The Netherlands?
No, me or they actually aren't because I'm engaging with your inane and unreal "FrancOS" examples. Are countries purchasing their own insular
Windows or Office or Exchange or whatever, now? WindowsFR? Do you
believe what keeps them from doing so is Microsoft won't sell it to
them?
Interoperability relies on concensus. (read my comment, above). If any
party has the ability and legal right to make a change that defies
that concensus, it can. Will there be a certification authority for
FrancoOS that meets quarterly with the authority for ItaloOS to
discuss which changes and additions should be incorporated in the
next/bug release?
Maybe provide some tangible examples of what interoperability issues you
have in mind because I'm not seeing it. Let's dispense with the
<Country>OS strawman now.
The Linux environment has avoided that better and is currently an
informal standard across many platforms.
Because it is informal. Because no one FORCES anyone to do anything.
It hangs together BY CONCENSUS.
When Italy makes a decision and settles on distro X (because the
kernel, by itself, is pretty useless), how do they co-operate with
France's decision to use distro Y?
[Remember, YOU mentioned the EU]
Microsoft is the "formal" standard around the world (currently). This
avoids these "lack of concensus" issues.
Yes, I mentioned the EU. Not my fault you associate that with "forcing".
The EU as a whole functions as an interoperability interface between countries BY CONCENSUS. It exists in large part so that countries don't
need all to run the same systems to coordinate with each other rCo it provides its own interfaces for them to do so.
OTOH, FOSS applications have seriously lagged those available under
Windows. Often by decades. I can forgive a *lot* of MS's folly for the
amount of money they enabled me to make WAITING for FOSS tools to be
comparably competent.
FOSS lets me sidestep MS in cases where they constrain me
irrationally. Yet, allows me to leverage commercial tools that FOSS
still can't address.
[Of course, if you have short arms and deep pockets, then the FOSS
*cost* probably becomes an overwhelming advantage; if you're unwilling
to spend $5K for a tool, then limp along with whatever you can get
"for free"]
Then you know many large FOSS projects (Linux distros including) offer
paid support or you've seen how in certain FOSS projects the consumer
hires the developer or has their own developers contribute.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the
development of chronic diseases. "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective. If you are going to expose
your enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or,
limit what you expose to those things that have the least impact on
your viability as a company. >> What does that have to do with code
licensing? At worst >> you >> get the same negligence you might have
gotten from a bad proprietary >> vendor and at best you can actually
secure your enterprise by auditing >> the code. >> What $tep$
protect one from an irresponsible proprietary vendor?
The fact that you have AN ALTERNATE vendor. What protects you from bad
"Linux" (et al) implementation/design decisions? Roll your own?
You still have alternate vendors. There's no reason you can't go back to Microsoft or whomever in the future.
What's the alternate vendor to Windows?
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability. It just lets
you pretend that you can do something about it. >> Its? Whose? And
"pretend"?
FOSS is inherently just as vulnerable as closed source. "Pretend" in
that you want to tell yourself you *can* audit the code. But, you
won't.
Just like you won't exercise and change your diet (even though nothing
is PREVENTING you from doing so).
I changed my diet long ago and I do exercise. You're projecting. These admonitions about FOSS aren't new and they're not impossible to heed.
But, you likely won't. How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits? >> And again the licensing
of the code does not exclude >> commercial >> contracts. There can
PAID STAFF either on the development side, the user >> side or both.
An open project can also disregard
BUT THERE AREN'T. Hands up: how many folks run Linux and PAY someone
to keep their system secure and bug free? Do you even contribute bug
reports and patches as a form of support/payment?
Ideals don't mean squat. There should never have been more than "one"
case of AIDS -- there is no cost to just saying "no" or using a
condom. So, the ideal has no real impact on the actual.
First you conflate states and corporations and now you conflate
corporations with "folks". How many "folks" pay for and use Windows
support?
I don't know how you do things. Western European countries all have IT agencies and these interface with users and vendors. Whenever a
downstream user needs support they do not reach out to the vendor's
support, they reach out to their IT agency. That's the PAID STAFF
state-side.
These agencies are the very ones saying that given vendors' current
terms, political demands and infrastructure and user's needs they need
means to contract FOSS software alongside proprietary. Currently there
are no set frameworks for public contracting of open software like there
are for proprietary vendors.
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or
at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
Just like every corporation since M$ and now including M$ has done. Open source software is a major part of software corporations and Microsoft
has become one of its major parts: see their github repository for
examples of it in their products, see their acquisition of GitHub, see
their takeover of Python, etc...
Google, Meta, Amazon, etc... all largely build upon open software and
they deal with your objections just fine.
How effective are they atit? MS (Apple) have the advantage that they
have mechanisms in place to address "issues" and certification
programs to push that expertise into the market. >> Which
mechanisms? Microsoft just two years ago had a >> massive breach of
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/stolen-microsoft-key-offered-widespread-access-to-microsoft-cloud-services/security on their cloud offering: >>
they could be. >> There have been many recent large breaches ofNot only did nothing come out of it they were as opaque as >>
Microsoft services (more >> than is polite to link, use a search
engine) and >> their disgraceful and dishonest handling of them it's
clear your >> argument is disconnected from reality. Their company
isn't any less >> viable as a result of their trivial mistakes and
their terrible disclosure.
Gee, a (another!) *nation* is talking about dropping their product.
Product*S*. I'm sure they are all rejoicing at MS headquarters (not).
What does it matter how they feel? Their bottom line is unaffected and
they do not change.
Where do you see "discipline and accountability"? How effective are
those mechanisms after all?
Discipline applies to the FOSS user. *HE* has to be responsible for
maintaining his own security. Keeping on top of bugs and exploits.
PAYING someone (on staff or a service) to do this as a *cost* of using
the product.
MS (Apple) have people who are at least TRYING to keep on top of their
product.
I have just demonstrated to you that MS doesn't. Apple does not provide services at the institutional scale we are discussing.
If you want a secure service you have to invest in it, no surprise.
That's true for both proprietary and open solutions.
That infrastructure is already in place for commercial offerings.
*You* have to discipline yourself to find such a provider and
"subscribe" for FOSS tools.
For *EVERY* tool, not just the kernel.
Yes but that is amplified by all the *You*s doing it for *EVERY* tool
they use. Literally the benefit of it being public.
With proprietary services the only option is to leave and that's what
these customers are doing. With open software not only can you audit
the development but you also can switch developers and keep the code,
licensing allowing for forks.
Again, CAN and DO are two different realities. I use PostgreSQL in my
current product. I actively track the development to see: - where it
is headed - how performance is evolving - what vulnerabilities exist
It will not run on my OS. So, I have to be *intimately* familiar with
it's implementation in order to port it -- when it has reached a level
of service that I deem "good enough" going forward (because I don't
intend to keep tracking -CURRENT with my port).
Wanna bet that I'm an outlier in this? And, that most folks just run
some release and update it <whenever>?
"Folks" don't represent institutions.
Not only is that another hypothesis, not the current state, itRather than fretting about interoperability nations and institutions
can create software jointly (which is what is being arranged) and
design in their mutual needs.
Until some "personality" infects that group of nations. What's to say
a Trump-populist doesn't get established in Belgium? Or Germany?
Canada and the US did things jointly -- until they didn't.
transparently reduces to: "If they explicitly choose not to
inter-operate they won't create interoperability."
No shit, just like proprietary vendors don't unless they have to.
Your invalid argument rests on entities hiring services and not
securing them, the good faith of proprietary vendors and magical
thinking. In reality FOSS software is not fundamentally compromised.
The amount of FOSS software that's involved on the transmission of
these messages is proof enough of that. Internet rests on NGINX and
Apache just fine, Linux and BSD are widespread in secure applications
and so on... Every major corporation integrates FOSS software in
their product nowadays.
Every major corporation integrates MS/Apple software in their product
nowadays. Why?
Myriad of reasons why one picks a vendor. Thank you for validating my
claim that opting for FOSS is as valid as proprietary offerings.
Addressing the article again, something that's missing from it is that countries aren't moving from M$ arbitrarily nor are they making a
sweeping decision to prioritize or singularly choose FOSS. M$'s recent
terms also have changed to the point that countries do not want to renew
that specific contract: notably cost has increased markedly and they're
more and more moving away from offering products + support to a
consolidated managed cloud offering where not only do they hold all the
data but do charge for a myriad of services that may or not be what institutions want to purchase. This mounts upon the concerns I've
previously wrote of.
I don't know specifics but I saw nationwide drops or massive scaling
back of Microsoft products in 2023-2024. It isn't surprising that institutions do not want to be locked into massive cloud deals. How many "folks" pay for M$ 365?
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data
sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or
at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU
economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of
that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than
develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
This is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our data secret from the
USA. They don't honour our privacy laws.
On 2025-08-25 03:12, Don Y wrote:
On 8/24/2025 5:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Having Microsoft accountable doesn't actually mean anything.
Who do you call when your FOSS box misbehaves?
You get a support contract.
You can also actually report a bug, and if it is real, it gets acted on. Way easier that on Windows. Me, Joe Nobody, have reported bugs that got acted and
solved in weeks.
Windows? Never.
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions. The comments below are David's.
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data orThis is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our
at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU
economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than
develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
data secret from the USA. They don't honour our privacy
laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished? Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions.-a The comments below are David's.
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or
at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU
economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than
develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
This is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our data secret
from the USA. They don't honour our privacy laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished?-a Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
On 8/25/2025 5:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 03:12, Don Y wrote:
On 8/24/2025 5:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Having Microsoft accountable doesn't actually mean anything.
Who do you call when your FOSS box misbehaves?
You get a support contract.
You can also actually report a bug, and if it is real, it gets acted
on. Way easier that on Windows. Me, Joe Nobody, have reported bugs
that got acted and solved in weeks.
Windows? Never.
My last paid interaction with MS was to report a bug in one of their early C++ compilers.-a They confirmed the bug (cuz I gave them a short code fragment
that made it obvious).-a Their "fix" was to offer me the newer version of the
compiler, on the spot, which did not exhibit the problem.
That *may* have been a smart move for me.-a But, I had no desire to revalidate every other aspect of the compiler that I had already discovered.-a So, I switched to FOSS tools for software development.
If you report a bug to an FOSS product, are you sure you are
going to end up with EXACTLY the same product -- just with the
known bug repaired?-a Or, will you find yourself facing a *set*
of unknowns?
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions. The comments below are David's.
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or >>>> at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due toThis is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU
economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than >>>> develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
data secret from the USA. They don't honour our privacy
laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished? Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
Countries can't enforce laws on other countries.
Thus they move services to where they have jurisdiction.
On 2025-08-25 19:20, Don Y wrote:
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions.-a The comments below are David's.
And they were attributed to him.
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or >>>> at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU
economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than >>>> develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
This is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our data secret from >>> the USA. They don't honour our privacy laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished?-a Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
If you report a bug to an FOSS product, are you sure you are
going to end up with EXACTLY the same product -- just with the
known bug repaired?-a Or, will you find yourself facing a *set*
of unknowns?
Depends on who you report to and what is their policy.
On the kernel I am using, for example, I get the same version with all the problems found during the month solved.
MS tries to address I18N/L10N *in* their product offerings. And, those offerings are big/bulky enough (not "Solitaire") that there is an
advantage to "settling" for an existing offering. The bar to
create/require something unique/specific is too high to casually cross
-- because MS (Apple) hold all of the cards in that negotiation.
The perception that one can "easily" tweek an FOSS product leads to
folks wanting to tweek it. I wanted dhcd(8) to recognize the existing ethers/hosts/networks(5) databases as that adds value to the
implementation. So, mine does.
As a result, my dhcpd.conf(5) is incompatible with "yours". If you
*prohibit* such changes, then you are doing away withthe very
characteristic of FOSS that led you (them) to embrace it as an
alternative to MS (Apple).
Why so many distros? Why not *one* desktop service? Why not PostgreSQL instead of MySQL? Ans: because people have their own idea of what an
OS environment should contain. Whether it is FrancoOS, ItaloOS or
BobOS.
Again, does the government decide which "distro" (and kernel version)
is "GermanOS"? Or, do they just say "don't use MS"?
Fine. Call it BobOS and FredOS and MaryOS. Go find three of your
friends who run different distros and convince *two* of them they
should (must!) run the third. Their choices were obviously ARBITRARY,
right? Surely they can settle on ONE desktop, one userland, one
kernel...
Why are there different distros? Your new employee worked at a company
that ran BobOS (Fedora). YOUR firm runs FredOS (RHEL). Should be 100% productive the moment they sit down, right? Up to and including
rebuilding world?
MS (Apple) corporate appeal is that you *can* drop employees into
licensed seats and have them immediately productive.
How many individuals (getting away from corporate inertia) opt to move
from MS to Apple to Linux? Apple is supposedly so much "friendlier"...
you'd think every MS user would gleefully abandon everything they have learned about (e.g.) Windows just for that reason alone! And, Linux is *free*! Think of all the money they would be saving for that
"sacrifice"...
Do you remember the MSWord vs WordPerfect "selection criteria" that
employers used with new hires? Quattro vs. Excel? Being an Intel shop
vs a Motorola shop?
These are all functionally equivalent products yet you can't take an
Excel spreadsheet and open it in Quattro. And, an employee accustomed
to working in WordPerfect in a MSWord seat. Someone who has written
code for an x86 and set them in front of a 68K...
People (and businesses) embrace choice. But, THEIR choice.
What does Linux (or any FOSS platform) offer me as an alternative to FrameMaker? AutoCAD? Do I have to redraw all of my P&ID documents in
some Linux-supported alternative? Protel schematics to KiCAD/gEDA? Or,
worse, have to maintain an MS platform *alongside* my FOSS platform,
to have both capabilities available?
These are all functionally equivalent products yet you can't take an
Excel spreadsheet and open it in Quattro. And, an employee accustomed
to working in WordPerfect in a MSWord seat. Someone who has written
code for an x86 and set them in front of a 68K...
So, Germany adopting GermanOS won't incur any costs in interoperating
with Spain sticking with Windows? Or, transitioning to SpainOS? All
this "magic", for free?
And each individual project has its own (paid?) support channel. So,
you've got someone on staff who sorts out WHICH firms to hire (this
year vs. last) to support which products. And, decide which to stop supporting due to budgetary constraints?
You keep speaking about hiring developers. Do John and Jane Doe do so?
A company with 10 employees? 100? How many FOSS shops (and users)
*pay* anything?? How many MS (Apple) users have someone (friend) they
can talk to about their problem FOR FREE?
Hands up: how many folks hire developers?
You still have alternate vendors. There's no reason you can't go back
to Microsoft or whomever in the future.
So, Germany is just taking a political stand and isn't REALLY serious
about cutting the apron strings?
What's the alternate vendor to Windows?
Um, OS X?
Wonderful! Now you just have to DICTATE (as a government making an OS
choice) that everyone else follows suit! Because we're standardizing
on "healthy". Because we don't want to be dependant on "US tech
giants".
[Next week, we'll come up with our own search engine and mandate that
only *it* be used for that service. Then Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
...]
They don't have to! They have a friend, neighbor, sibling, etc. that
they can call on. Because it is ubiquitous. I guess if you outlaw MS
(Apple) then your new *choice* (government endorsed software) will
eventually be ubiquitous. And, save people from having to make any
decisions about such issues!
I don't know how you do things. Western European countries all have
IT agencies and these interface with users and vendors. Whenever a
downstream user needs support they do not reach out to the vendor's
support, they reach out to their IT agency. That's the PAID STAFF
state-side.
All free, of course. Gee, such a great idea. Why doesn't the US have a
state sponsored IT department for its citizenry?
These agencies are the very ones saying that given vendors' current
terms, political demands and infrastructure and user's needs they
need means to contract FOSS software alongside proprietary. Currently
there are no set frameworks for public contracting of open software
like there are for proprietary vendors.
So, FOSS is *not* the same as "commercial" software. Which FOSS
products will the government bless (by providing support) and which
will get the kiss of death? And you're comfortable with government
having such an intrusive role in that market?
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with
data sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own
data or at least prioritizing European providers over American ones
due to increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers
not honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive).
EU economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to
all of that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS
rather than develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
Because they freeloaded and now realize there are costs to avoiding
those investments. Surely not from a lack of innovation...
MS has played the same card throughout their history. The efforts are
always to make these things "their" products (or at least have an
outsized voice in their evolution). Remember browser wars? Office
suites? Compiler competitions? That's the nature of competition.
What happens when the government puts their finger on the scale?
Governments, of course, being such agile and forward thinking
entities... you're *sure* to be on the bleeding edge when they're (effectively) calling the shots!
Google, Meta, Amazon, etc... all largely build upon open software and
they deal with your objections just fine.
And have money to throw at those things as well as *weight* to
influence their evolution. They also deal with *enterprise* software.
Their not micromanaging how John and Jane Doe deal with computing.
["I'm sorry, that's not THE officially sanctioned Solitaire..."]
Of course their bottom line is affected. Even if only "in the noise".
How they change is up to them. They could double-down and make it increasingly difficult for folks who have "strayed" from the flock, especially given their huge presence *in* the market.
Imagine changing the format of every Office document from one (minor!) release to the next. "Forcing" FOSS alternatives (OO) to have to
revisit their codebase just to keep current with the documents MS
users are creating (and sharing via email with their business
associates).
Or, if each was encrypted with private MS keys so FOSS alternatives
couldn't examine the internal structure of the documents. That's a
*change* -- intended to retain their hold on their market (isn't that
the goal of every business? get new customers and retain existing??)
What incentive do they have to adopt compatibility with some FOSS
product? Why build an Apache clone -- and not a product that offers
something Apache doesn't (locking the customer into that offering in
the process)?
I've seen companies sell distilled water in "chipped" vials to lock
their customers into a "consumables" stream. The customer may resent
the lack of choice (price) but the company is looking out for their
own interests...
(Ditto printer ink, toilet paper and other consummables that subsidize
other aspects of their use)
Right. MS has *no* support staff. No one tests their products. No one documents bugs. They are completely cavalier in their attitude towards product quality. Right?
Only for the tools that others find useful and are willing to support.
You are thus coerced into a homogeneous existence, doing everything
the way everyone else does.
So, folks can't use computers? Can't have a choice in which they use?
They don't see it as "choosing not to interoperate". They see their
choices as the RIGHT choice. They will happily let others adopt
*their* choice.
My choices for dhcpd(8) seem obvious. Why hard-code IPs and MACs in dhcpd.conf(5) -- and separately have others in ethers/hosts/networks?
Should I wage a *campaign* to convince the maintainers that my
BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE changes should be embraced as part of the normal release? Or, should I just accept responsibility for maintaining *my*
version of the sources -- and configuration files -- and let others
live with their less capable implementation?
And, after all this, you've just swapped a different "organization"
for MS. You're just as reliant on that organization (so, ensure you
have sovereign control over it!) and, likely, have a voice in how it
operates and where it places its evolutionary and support priorities.
If you report a bug to an FOSS product, are you sure you are
going to end up with EXACTLY the same product -- just with the
known bug repaired?
On 8/25/2025 10:43 AM, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:Countries can't enforce laws on other countries.
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions. The comments below are David's. >>>
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>>>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or >>>>> at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due toThis is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our
increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers not
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU >>>>> economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>>>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than >>>>> develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
data secret from the USA. They don't honour our privacy
laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished? Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
Thus they move services to where they have jurisdiction.
You can prevent a company from doing business in your country.
A service is imported (or exported) just like any other "goods".
The means of blocking its import (or export) are just different.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant r?? Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant r?? Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software >>> in pursuit of digital sovereignty
N++
Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of
open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their
digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
Germanyr??s Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it
intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source
software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to
Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is >>> phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud,
Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including
teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising Germanyr??s digital sovereignty is a >>> process that cannot happen r??at the push of a button.r??
N++
Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as
risky due to the r??zigzag courser?? of US President Donald Trumpr??s administration,
which has created uncertainty over Washingtonr??s policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. Francer??s police,
Denmarkr??s Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain
have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs.
Indiar??s Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based
platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed
software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict
in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed
operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers
underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
There are no nationalist issues. Microsoft is garbage and google is
evil.
Some days we'll have reliable computers and reliable software. For
everyone.
The notion that an entire country is choosing one system over another is >exactly the problem.
My shop gave up on Microsoft ages ago, when MS changed their EULA to allow >them to read and use any user data for any purpose.
I have no idea why anyone is still using their stuff at this point.
Certainly itAs not a national security or patriotic issue.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
If you report a bug to an FOSS product, are you sure you are
going to end up with EXACTLY the same product -- just with the
known bug repaired?
Yes a major advantage of version control being ubiquitous in public
code. You can trivially see changes and even cherry pick them and build
your own as I'm sure you know.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/25/2025 10:43 AM, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:Countries can't enforce laws on other countries.
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions. The comments below are David's. >>>>
...
On top of that European countries and EU offices are concerned with data >>>>>> sovereignty at the moment. They're exploring hosting their own data or >>>>>> at least prioritizing European providers over American ones due to >>>>>> increasing legislative incompatibility and American providers notThis is very important for us. Microsoft doesn't keep our
honoring European data regulations (or making it very expensive). EU >>>>>> economists also hope to kickstart an European tech sector. Due to all of >>>>>> that, they're obviously hoping to be able to build on FOSS rather than >>>>>> develop from scratch both for interoperability and cost.
data secret from the USA. They don't honour our privacy
laws.
Oh, so you're complaining because you can't *enforce* your laws?
Do you allow murderers to go unpunished? Which laws do you
enforce and which DON'T you?
If I try to sell a foodstuff prepared with a substance that
your country has banned, would you just tell me to "stop"?
Or, would you take some enforcement action?
An unenforceable law is just a "wish".
Thus they move services to where they have jurisdiction.
You can prevent a company from doing business in your country.
A service is imported (or exported) just like any other "goods".
The means of blocking its import (or export) are just different.
You'll find most of the world participates in trade agreements that do
not support such actions. See the World Trade Organization webpage for
an explanation.
Even ignoring that, those are hostile actions nobody is interested in
taking. There is no interest in outlawing Microsoft or any other
business and governments try to arbitrate with foreign companies diplomatically.
Allow me to clarify:
The source article and this discussion is specifically about procuring *government software* for government institutions. It has no bearing on individuals or corporations or anyone else other than what public
services and institutions run. They are not making a new OS for all of Germany to run! They are simply looking to terminate their service
contract for public software with Microsoft and looking for
alternatives.
There is no DICTATING involved. The government and it's agencies are
simply dissatisfied with Microsoft's offering and looking elsewhere.
Germany is not alone in that.
You either didn't read the article or somehow managed to
catastrophically misinterpret it. It seems like you think the German government is about to mandate Linux and ban Microsoft or something?
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant r?? Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant r?? Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software >>> in pursuit of digital sovereignty
N++
Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of
open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their
digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
Germanyr??s Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it
intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source
software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to
Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is >>> phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud,
Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including
teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising Germanyr??s digital sovereignty is a >>> process that cannot happen r??at the push of a button.r??
N++
Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as
risky due to the r??zigzag courser?? of US President Donald Trumpr??s administration,
which has created uncertainty over Washingtonr??s policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. Francer??s police,
Denmarkr??s Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain
have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs.
Indiar??s Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based
platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed
software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict
in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed
operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers
underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
There are no nationalist issues. Microsoft is garbage and google is
evil.
Some days we'll have reliable computers and reliable software. For
everyone.
The notion that an entire country is choosing one system over another is >exactly the problem.
My shop gave up on Microsoft ages ago, when MS changed their EULA to allow >them to read and use any user data for any purpose.
I have no idea why anyone is still using their stuff at this point.
Certainly itAs not a national security or patriotic issue.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 00:49:21 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
We are stuck in a computing mindset that evolved in the 1960's.
Time for something new.
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and >constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same >bandwaggon.
On 8/24/2025 2:37 PM, David Governo wrote:
Who's the guy on "your" team who takes ownership of "security"?Whoever you hire, possibly the developer. Paying for open code is
(Or, are you hoping some unnamed developer of unknown intentions will
be your "free support"?)
possible.
IME, peole don't *hire* someone to take on this responsibility.
They assume it magically happens -- because there are all those
people WORKING on the code base (yes, but none as YOUR advocate).
[Will DeutschOS be compatible with FrancoOS?-a When AngloOS makes a
change to itself, will ItaloOS make a compatible change?-a How many
tails wagging how many dogs??]
As you know there's an European Union and even your hypothetical OS's
are probably GNU\Linux, not that hard to interoperate.
Only by concensus.-a There is nothing that requires one to interoperate
with another.
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
When a product is not forcibly constrained ("bug fixes ONLY beyond thisSo what, release format have nothing to do with code openness.
point"), then you're just playing whack-a-mole; fixing one and possibly
introducing (or exposing) others.
The point isn't "openness" but, rather, discipline and accountability.
And, the notion that "lots of eyes" on the sources reduces the numberAnd the notion that access to the source code means you can pay someone
of bugs
is provably naive.-a (There are known bugs discovered to have resided
in such
packages dating back 15 years!-a <https://slideplayer.com/slide/1599949/> >>> Obviously, no one is ACTIVELY critiquing the code;-a "Well, it's
worked for all
these years so it MUST be OK!")-a Even moreso for folks with NO eyes
on the
sources!-a ("I just wanna drive the bus").
to audit it for you is provably effective.
And exercise and healthy diet can prolong life and defer the development
of chronic diseases.-a "So what?!"
What matters isn't whether or not something is "provably effective"
but whether it is ACTUALLY effective.-a If you are going to expose your enterprise, then you either take $tep$ to protect it -- or, limit
what you expose to those things that have the least impact on your
viability as a company.
As if the large software manufacturers haven't had loads of serious
vulnerabilities. Particularly Microsoft.
Switching to FOSS doesn't change *it's* vulnerability.-a It just
lets you pretend that you can do something about it.
But, you likely won't.-a How many firms running FOSS software have
PAID STAFF that can maintain those bits?-a How effective are they at it?
MS (Apple) have the advantage that they have mechanisms in place to
address "issues" and certification programs to push that expertise into
the market.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it >shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and >constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same >bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same bandwaggon.
In the PDF example, there are many different things *called* PDFs
that aren't necessarily compatible.-a And, bits of software that
claim to author or read them stumble on these incompatibilities.
On 24/08/2025 23:33, Don Y wrote:
MS made an arbitrary decision to use '\' as a path delimiter -- despite
others already in existence ('/', '>', etc.).-a How many similarly
arbitrary decisions can be made and rationalized as "correct for us"?
It wasn't totally arbitrary.-a They were already using / as delimiter
for adding parameters to a command line.
On 8/25/2025 11:31 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
If you report a bug to an FOSS product, are you sure you are
going to end up with EXACTLY the same product -- just with the
known bug repaired?-a Or, will you find yourself facing a *set*
of unknowns?
Depends on who you report to and what is their policy.
On the kernel I am using, for example, I get the same version with all
the problems found during the month solved.
But I don't WANT any other changes.-a Those might not bother me
or I may have a work-around that the new changes *break*.
On 8/25/2025 11:32 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 19:20, Don Y wrote:
On 8/25/2025 5:59 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-25 13:45, David Governo wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
Please take care with your attributions.-a The comments below are
David's.
And they were attributed to him.
Clearly they weren't.-a As above:-a "Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes"
NOTHING in the quoted text was written by me.-a So, why is my name part
of the attribution?
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft
deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their
products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working >cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 17:47:13 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft
deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their
products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other >Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working >cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
Yes, but there are many PDF readers, some quite tolerant. On MacOS,
Preview is pretty good. I don't know the Win options all that well,
but there must be some good ones. So try a few and see what works.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 17:47:13 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >> >> >Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >> >> >deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >> >> >products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working
cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
Yes, but there are many PDF readers, some quite tolerant. On MacOS,
Preview is pretty good. I don't know the Win options all that well,
but there must be some good ones. So try a few and see what works.
The point about PDFs is that they are standardised and work
cross-platform. My reader has worked perfectly well for 20 years but
now some recent files called "PDF" cannot be read. I should not have
to cast around for readers that can cope with non-standard files that
aren't what they are supposed to be, the files should be compatible or
they shouldn't be called PDFs.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft
deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their
products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft
deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their
products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
On 2025-08-26 18:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >>> Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >>> deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >>> products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
I have not seen this. Are there samples to try?
On 8/26/2025 9:47 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >>> Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >>> deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >>> products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
There are lots of different "substandards" (?) for genuine PDFs.
A first step would be to identify which MS has targeted. PDF/A
is the most conservative form -- the most portable. You might
run some of your examples through veraPDF and see what *it* has
to say about them.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 8/26/2025 9:47 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris >>>>> Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >>>>> Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >>>>> deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >>>>> products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working
cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
There are lots of different "substandards" (?) for genuine PDFs.
A first step would be to identify which MS has targeted. PDF/A
is the most conservative form -- the most portable. You might
run some of your examples through veraPDF and see what *it* has
to say about them.
There shouldn't be a range of portability; the PDF concept is that it is completely portable, not selectively portable.
Something like a newsletter, that is being distributed to dozens of
different reading devices, should be in the lowest common deniominator.
I know at least two local clubs whose newsletter is generated in Word
and is sent out with pages that are unreadable because some gimmick or
other has been incorporated "to enhance the user experience". The
senders weren't even aware that the 'feature' was turned on and haven't
found a way of disabling it. (I have already resigned from one club
because they discontinued their printed newsletter and their online one wasn't readable.)
On 8/25/2025 12:50 PM, David Governo wrote:
They are *agreements*. Agreements can be broken, amended, ignored, etc. >Russia has signed treaties regarding weaponry -- yet, almost
openly ignored their commitments under them.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use
Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and >constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same >bandwaggon.
----
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
In article <108iprp$3mv0q$2@dont-email.me>,
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 8/25/2025 12:50 PM, David Governo wrote:
They are *agreements*. Agreements can be broken, amended, ignored, etc. >Russia has signed treaties regarding weaponry -- yet, almost
openly ignored their commitments under them.
Why do you single out Russia as an example? The most typical example is
USA and most egregiously Israel.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 17:47:13 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris
Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >> >> >Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >> >> >deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >> >> >products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working
cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
Yes, but there are many PDF readers, some quite tolerant. On MacOS,
Preview is pretty good. I don't know the Win options all that well,
but there must be some good ones. So try a few and see what works.
The point about PDFs is that they are standardised and work
cross-platform. My reader has worked perfectly well for 20 years but
now some recent files called "PDF" cannot be read. I should not have
to cast around for readers that can cope with non-standard files that
aren't what they are supposed to be, the files should be compatible or
they shouldn't be called PDFs.
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty
N++
Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
GermanyrCOs Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising GermanyrCOs digital sovereignty is a process that cannot happen rCLat the push of a button.rC?
N++
Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as risky due to the rCLzigzag courserC? of US President Donald TrumprCOs administration,
which has created uncertainty over WashingtonrCOs policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. FrancerCOs police,
DenmarkrCOs Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs. IndiarCOs Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
Invention of the printed circuit? Or going back further the transformer? Or >the coke iron smelter?
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-26 18:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"Why can't they just accept an MSWord document?"
I have never submitted a document in Word, I do all my work in Claris >>>>> Works and then just export it in RTF. If the recipient happens to use >>>>> Word, then they read it in Word.
As long as the interchange standards are ageeed and adhered to, it
shouldn't matter what software the sender and receiver use. Microsoft >>>>> deliberately screwed this up in an attempt to force users to buy their >>>>> products for 'compatibility' with their new (de-facto and
constantly-changing) standards - and Apple soon jumped on the same
bandwaggon.
In my experience, only pdf has proven durable over the decades.
Unfortunately not. Microsoft Word generates files with the .PDF
extension which are not true PDF files. They can be read by other
Microsoft programs but not by some of the other systems (working
cross-platform was the whole purpoose of PDF files).
I have not seen this. Are there samples to try?
Newsletters for local groups are often generated in Word, these seem to
be the worst offenders. Unfortunately the ones I know about are
distributed privately, so I can't give a link to them. In any case, you wouldn't realise they aren't cross-platform if you use a Microsoft
product to check them.
On 8/28/2025 12:52 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 8/26/2025 9:47 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:14:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
You can also embed multimedia (audio/video).-a Should EVERY authoring tool have this capability?-a Ditto for every "reader"?-a That limits the choices available as supporting them increases the complexity of the reader and authoring tools.
This:
-a <https://mega.nz/file/ EqonAYZT#RiTYVqnKJq55yAJsyZJ4lGKvFex7m1LSWpezmQ13c-o>
is a 3D model that you can examine *in* the reader (rotate it, zoom, flip decompose, etc.).-a Should all authoring tools support such objects?
Ditto readers?
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar industries.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
On 2025-08-28 11:43, Don Y wrote:
This:
-a-a <https://mega.nz/file/ EqonAYZT#RiTYVqnKJq55yAJsyZJ4lGKvFex7m1LSWpezmQ13c-o>
is a 3D model that you can examine *in* the reader (rotate it, zoom, flip
decompose, etc.).-a Should all authoring tools support such objects?
Ditto readers?
Nope. Doesn't rotate here, just a static photo.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA. And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar industries.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >built.
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >built.
<albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
In article <108iprp$3mv0q$2@dont-email.me>,
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 8/25/2025 12:50 PM, David Governo wrote:
They are *agreements*. Agreements can be broken, amended, ignored, etc. >>> Russia has signed treaties regarding weaponry -- yet, almost
openly ignored their commitments under them.
Why do you single out Russia as an example? The most typical example is
USA and most egregiously Israel.
If we hadn't broken our agreement to defend Ukraine, Russia wouldn't be invading now.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty
N++
Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American
technology firms.
GermanyrCOs Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends to increase the use of European solutions and
open-source software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word,
Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its
administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising GermanyrCOs digital sovereignty is a process that cannot happen rCLat the push of a
button.rC?
N++
Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as risky due to the rCLzigzag courserC? of US President
Donald TrumprCOs administration,
which has created uncertainty over WashingtonrCOs policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. FrancerCOs police,
DenmarkrCOs Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain have introduced open-source systems in place of
Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs. IndiarCOs Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a
Linux-based platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western
companies curtailed operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable
foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA. And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >industries.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >>time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 17:57:28 -0000 (UTC), piglet
<erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
Invention of the printed circuit? Or going back further the transformer? Or >>the coke iron smelter?
The Brits invented railroads and all manner of stuff in WW2, like
cavity magnetrons, Bletchley Park (codebreaking), and so on.
But to manufacture on sufficient scale during WW2, these were passed
on to USA industry.
Various pundits recently commented that the US Innovates, China
Imitates, and Europe Regulates.
Joe
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
Marconi invented radio
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tech event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
For example, the Germans, I think, have too much respect for academics
and degrees and titles for something crazy like Apple to be supported.
I was involved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff--
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Marconi invented radio
No, he promoted radio but didn't invent it.
Baird promoted television but he didn't invent it.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA. And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>industries.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
Who invented html, your web-browser?
You are using one I am sure.
Airplanes? Wright Brothers. UK
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown
away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 18:29:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> >>wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>>built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
There is Pragmatic
< https://www.pragmaticsemi.com/ >
but their web site seems broken.
Flexible ICs do seem kinda strange.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:16:36 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 18:29:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> >>>wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the >>>>> UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>>>built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
There is Pragmatic
< https://www.pragmaticsemi.com/ >
but their web site seems broken.
Flexible ICs do seem kinda strange.
Website works now. All sizzle no steak. Something like 300 million
pounds invested (or pledged?), supported by exactly one chip. Hmm.
Joe
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 07:24:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA. And tubes aren't that >>>popular any more.
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>>room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>industries.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
Who invented html, your web-browser?
You are using one I am sure.
Airplanes? Wright Brothers. UK
Funny.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:11:53 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:16:36 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 18:29:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> >>>>wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>>> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>>> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the >>>>>> UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>>>>built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
There is Pragmatic
< https://www.pragmaticsemi.com/ >
but their web site seems broken.
Flexible ICs do seem kinda strange.
Website works now. All sizzle no steak. Something like 300 million >>pounds invested (or pledged?), supported by exactly one chip. Hmm.
Joe
None of the links on the home page work for me, with Firefox.
The one chip image that I saw was obviously bogus clip art.
Even tiny stresses wreck opamp offset voltages. Imagine bending ICs.
And why? Kapton flex is the way to bend things.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been
built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
On 8/28/25 3:29 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the
UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>> built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
ARM does not sell hardware - they just sell IP.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:18:16 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 8/28/25 3:29 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:08:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 8/28/25 12:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
All pretty old. Brits still invent, but do it mostly outside of the >>>>> UK.
Joe
The ARM processor is a British creation. More than 300 billion have been >>>> built.
Yes, of course. But, built where?
Joe
ARM does not sell hardware - they just sell IP.
Yes, I know. But many do not.
Joe
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >>> >time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>> >> room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown
away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the
peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive
potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P,
Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their
hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes
electronic design.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the
peasants in their place, so suppresses 90% of a country's inventive potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P,
Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their
hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes
electronic design.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>> >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>> >> >> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>> >> >> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >>>> >time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>> >> effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>>> >> room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>> >> industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese >>>> >firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown
away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the
peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their
hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes
electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>> >> >> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>> >> >> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >>>>> >time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>>> >> effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>>>> >> room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>>> >> industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese >>>>> >firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>>>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the
peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their
hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >replication of alien technologies?
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>> >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>> >> >> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>> >> >> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>>>> >> effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>>>> >> industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese >>>>>> >firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>>>>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
Joe
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |ore4rCL Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant |ore4rCL Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty
-+-+Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
Germany|ore4raos Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising Germany|ore4raos digital sovereignty is a process that cannot happen |ore4+oat the push of a button.|ore4?
-+-+Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as risky due to the |ore4+ozigzag course|ore4? of US President Donald Trump|ore4raos administration,
which has created uncertainty over Washington|ore4raos policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. France|ore4raos police,
Denmark|ore4raos Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs. India|ore4raos Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
On 8/28/2025 12:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 11:43, Don Y wrote:
This:
-a-a <https://mega.nz/file/
EqonAYZT#RiTYVqnKJq55yAJsyZJ4lGKvFex7m1LSWpezmQ13c-o>
is a 3D model that you can examine *in* the reader (rotate it, zoom,
flip
decompose, etc.).-a Should all authoring tools support such objects?
Ditto readers?
Nope. Doesn't rotate here, just a static photo.
For the record, which reader are you using?
Here's an ad hoc screen capture just showing that the model
CAN be manipulated (this with Adobe Reader 9):
<https://mega.nz/file/gyYDzRzC#5KZJu5YwyiiUWxgKv6veG6EqwFbRse4_cQYll9SPxfA>
When the cursor zips off image at the start of the capture,
I am enabling that special content in the reader "for this
time only".-a When it falls off the image at the end, I am
stopping the recording.
I didn't script the effort to demonstrate its utility.-a Rather, just
poked around at it to show it wasn't a static picture.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 17:57:28 -0000 (UTC), piglet
<erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
Invention of the printed circuit? Or going back further the transformer? Or >> the coke iron smelter?
The Brits invented railroads and all manner of stuff in WW2, like
cavity magnetrons, Bletchley Park (codebreaking), and so on.
But to manufacture on sufficient scale during WW2, these were passed
on to USA industry.
Various pundits recently commented that the US Innovates, China
Imitates, and Europe Regulates.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Does US have any educational TV channels?
On 2025-08-29 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Does US have any educational TV channels?
PBS? But Trump killed the funding.
On 2025-08-28 19:07, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
From:
https://www.rt.com/news/623414-germany-abandoning-microsoft-software/
rt.com may be blocked in your country, so here the full text:
If you run Linux then change /etc/resolv.conf so it reads:
nameserver 8.8.8.8
nameserver 8.8.4.4
to bypass your ISP cencoring
Text:
Germany looking to end reliance on US tech giant rCo Bild
Berlin has begun testing open source tools to replace Microsoft software in pursuit of digital sovereignty
N++
Germany is considering abandoning Microsoft software in favor of open-source alternatives, Bild has reported.
The move has come as countries across the world seek to boost their digital autonomy and reduce dependence on American technology firms.
GermanyrCOs Federal Ministry for Digital Affairs has confirmed that it intends to increase the use of European solutions and open-source software in government operations,
according to the report, which was released on Wednesday. In a statement to Bild,
the ministry said it is already testing Open Desk as an alternative to Microsoft Office, which could replace Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
One German state has already taken concrete steps. Schleswig-Holstein is phasing out Microsoft products from its administration, replacing Office with LibreOffice,
Windows with Linux, and Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with Nextcloud, Open-Xchange and Thunderbird.
The program covers tens of thousands of public employees, including teachers, civil servants and police officers.
Officials have reportedly acknowledged that the transition will not be immediate.
The ministry told Bild that raising GermanyrCOs digital sovereignty is a process that cannot happen rCLat the push of a button.rC?
N++
Read more Microsoft restores services to sanctioned Indian refiner
Bild also noted that the move carries political undertones.
The newspaper claimed that reliance on American products is now seen as risky due to the rCLzigzag courserC? of US President Donald TrumprCOs administration,
which has created uncertainty over WashingtonrCOs policy direction.
Germany is not alone in pursuing alternatives to US software. FrancerCOs police,
DenmarkrCOs Digital Ministry, and administrations in Austria and Spain have introduced open-source systems in place of Microsoft products.
Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela have implemented similar programs. IndiarCOs Ministry of Defense has rolled out Maya OS, a Linux-based platform, to replace Windows.
Russia has also accelerated the replacement of foreign-developed software with domestic alternatives.
The shift has intensified since the escalation of the Ukraine conflict in 2022, after which Microsoft and other Western companies curtailed operations in the country.
Russian officials have argued that the withdrawal of US tech providers underscored the risks of relying on unpredictable foreign suppliers
and reinforced the need to ensure digital sovereignty.
You can share this story on social media
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
GSM.
On 2025-08-28 23:30, Don Y wrote:
On 8/28/2025 12:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 11:43, Don Y wrote:
This:
-a-a <https://mega.nz/file/
EqonAYZT#RiTYVqnKJq55yAJsyZJ4lGKvFex7m1LSWpezmQ13c-o>
is a 3D model that you can examine *in* the reader (rotate it, zoom, flip >>>> decompose, etc.).-a Should all authoring tools support such objects?
Ditto readers?
Nope. Doesn't rotate here, just a static photo.
For the record, which reader are you using?
Several. Foxit, FFx, for instance.
Here's an ad hoc screen capture just showing that the model
CAN be manipulated (this with Adobe Reader 9):
Adobe doesn't run on this computer.
<https://mega.nz/file/gyYDzRzC#5KZJu5YwyiiUWxgKv6veG6EqwFbRse4_cQYll9SPxfA>
Doesn't move. A clock goes round, but does not end.
When the cursor zips off image at the start of the capture,
I am enabling that special content in the reader "for this
time only".-a When it falls off the image at the end, I am
stopping the recording.
I didn't script the effort to demonstrate its utility.-a Rather, just
poked around at it to show it wasn't a static picture.
I knew it would work with adobe. I don't doubt you, but the feature that adobe
provides to make this work is not universally supported. It is no surprise to
me, I knew.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >>replication of alien technologies?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>> >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>> >> >> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>> >> >> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>>>>> >> effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>>>>> >> industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese >>>>>>> >firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies >>>>>>> either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>>>>>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even >>>>>college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
Joe
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's
almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
I have one intern who is good. He does the automation for the floats
in the Rose Bowl parade.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:59:53 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>wrote:Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >>>replication of alien technologies?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>>> >> >> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>>> >> >> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the >>>>>>>> >Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies >>>>>>>> either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am >>>>>>>> interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses, >>>>>>>taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and >>>>>>>> basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even >>>>>>college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything. >>>>>>
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
Joe
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's
almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
At least in our generation, it was obvious quite early in life if we >understood how physical things worked, and I think that this is a pure >talent, and cannot be learned. My Father was very good at
aeronautical and mechanical theory, but useless at car repair.
Baby story: My Mother used to tell a story about me when I was maybe
two and she was vacuuming something, and the nozzle plugged, and she
is trying to fish the lump out with a bent coat hangar, and I
suggested that she instead plug the hose into the exhaust port, and
blow it clear. Which worked. Now I don't recall any of this, but the
story is plausible.
And I would take anything I got my hands on apart. All the neighbors
knew that I wanted broken small appliances and the like. I also fixed
things for them.
I have one intern who is good. He does the automation for the floats
in the Rose Bowl parade.
Wonder what he played with in his early teens. This may also be an
interview question.
Joe
<https://mega.nz/file/gyYDzRzC#5KZJu5YwyiiUWxgKv6veG6EqwFbRse4_cQYll9SPxfA> >>Doesn't move. A clock goes round, but does not end.
It's an MP4.-a Did you DL it?-a Or try to watch it *in* the browser?
(which might not work, depending on your browser, as mega uses
end-to-end encryption to deliver content)
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 18:01:15 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:59:53 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote:Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >>>>replication of alien technologies?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal? >>>>>>>>> >
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the >>>>>>>>> >Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies >>>>>>>>> either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>>>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>>>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am >>>>>>>>> interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage >>>>>>>>> electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses,
taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>>>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and >>>>>>>>> basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even >>>>>>>college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything. >>>>>>>
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
Joe
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's
almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
At least in our generation, it was obvious quite early in life if we >>understood how physical things worked, and I think that this is a pure >>talent, and cannot be learned. My Father was very good at
aeronautical and mechanical theory, but useless at car repair.
Baby story: My Mother used to tell a story about me when I was maybe
two and she was vacuuming something, and the nozzle plugged, and she
is trying to fish the lump out with a bent coat hangar, and I
suggested that she instead plug the hose into the exhaust port, and
blow it clear. Which worked. Now I don't recall any of this, but the >>story is plausible.
And I would take anything I got my hands on apart. All the neighbors
knew that I wanted broken small appliances and the like. I also fixed >>things for them.
I have one intern who is good. He does the automation for the floats
in the Rose Bowl parade.
Wonder what he played with in his early teens. This may also be an >>interview question.
I think he's still a teenager.
Joe
I have two basic interview questions. On is a simple two-resistor
voltage divider, 10 volts, 9K, 1K. The other is the apple test: can
you close your eyes and visualize an apple, rotate it around?
Lots of verbal people, like programmers, can't see the apple.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 22:15:39 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-28 19:07, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
GSM.
That's a small tweak. Nothing like the transistor or the laser.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidBut not in Phil Hobbs?
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in >>>>>>> europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer >>>>>>> languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have >>>> time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more
general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal?
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of >>>>> effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm >>>>> room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar >>>>> industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the
markets are very small. If you start to become successful the
Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese >>>> firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies
either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers -
British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer
involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am
interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage
electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses,
taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown
away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and
basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the
peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive
potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P,
Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even
college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their
hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything.
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes
electronic design.
On 2025-08-29 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Does US have any educational TV channels?
PBS? But Trump killed the funding.
On 2025-08-30 22:59, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 22:15:39 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-28 19:07, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:12:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
GSM.
That's a small tweak. Nothing like the transistor or the laser.
Not a tweak, but a whole complex system designed by committee, and which
the entire world is using. The USA and everybody dropped their own
systems and switched to GSM.
On 8/30/2025 2:31 PM, Don Y wrote:
<https://mega.nz/file/gyYDzRzC#5KZJu5YwyiiUWxgKv6veG6EqwFbRse4_cQYll9SPxfA>
Doesn't move. A clock goes round, but does not end.
It's an MP4.-a Did you DL it?-a Or try to watch it *in* the browser?
(which might not work, depending on your browser, as mega uses
end-to-end encryption to deliver content)
Some snapshots of playing the MP4 locally: ><https://mega.nz/file/Yr5X3YTY#xzrIL-3kbQqas-RSHfsqko_JhgaEmBV1wh6TascriuU>
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's
almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 18:01:15 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:59:53 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote:Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >>>>replication of alien technologies?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal? >>>>>>>>> >
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the >>>>>>>>> >Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies >>>>>>>>> either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UK >>>>>>>>> >> seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many.
British industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer >>>>>>>>involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am >>>>>>>>> interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage >>>>>>>>> electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses,
taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff >>>>>>>>> from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and >>>>>>>>> basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even >>>>>>>college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything. >>>>>>>
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits.
Joe
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's
almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
At least in our generation, it was obvious quite early in life if we >>understood how physical things worked, and I think that this is a pure >>talent, and cannot be learned. My Father was very good at
aeronautical and mechanical theory, but useless at car repair.
Baby story: My Mother used to tell a story about me when I was maybe
two and she was vacuuming something, and the nozzle plugged, and she
is trying to fish the lump out with a bent coat hangar, and I
suggested that she instead plug the hose into the exhaust port, and
blow it clear. Which worked. Now I don't recall any of this, but the >>story is plausible.
And I would take anything I got my hands on apart. All the neighbors
knew that I wanted broken small appliances and the like. I also fixed >>things for them.
I have one intern who is good. He does the automation for the floats
in the Rose Bowl parade.
Wonder what he played with in his early teens. This may also be an >>interview question.
I think he's still a teenager.
Joe
I have two basic interview questions. On is a simple two-resistor
voltage divider, 10 volts, 9K, 1K. The other is the apple test: can
you close your eyes and visualize an apple, rotate it around?
Lots of verbal people, like programmers, can't see the apple.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 18:01:15 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:59:53 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 12:33:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 18:10:11 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>>wrote:Can one clone such a thing, or is manufacturing the better approach to >>>>>replication of alien technologies?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:08:17 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:59:52 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>>(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 22:07:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>>>>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:34:23 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
Ohm's Law (Ohm)
Magnetic induction (Faraday)
Capacitor (Leyden)
Thermionic diode (Fleming)
Pentode (Tellegen & Holst)
Gyrator (Tellegen)
Voltage multiplier (Cockroft & Walton)
Programmable computer (Flowers)
Long-tail pair (Blumlein)
Miller-effect integrator (Blumlein)
Transformer bridge (Blumlein)
Stereophonic disc recording (Blumlein)
CPS iconoscope (EMI)
Cavity magnetron (Randall & Boot)
Compact cassette (Philips Natlab)
Compact Disc (Philips/Sony)
Plumbicon (Philips)
Some of that happened before there was a USA.
It was there - but the people were fighting for survival and didn't have
time or resources to spare on academic research.
And tubes aren't that
popular any more.
Only 5 of them are exclusivly thermionic devices, the rest are more >>>>>>>>>> >general concepts. How do you thaw and heat your ready meal? >>>>>>>>>> >
I just don't see a lot of the HP/Intel/Apple/google/facebook sort of
effect in europe or asia, where a couple of guys in a garage or a dorm
room, without funding, often college dropouts, start trillion dollar
industries.
What's the point, we hardly have any production facilities and the >>>>>>>>>> >markets are very small. If you start to become successful the >>>>>>>>>> >Government will find a way of driving you out of business or a Chinese
firm will steal your ideas.
I don't see many niche Chinese electronics engineering companies >>>>>>>>>> either.
And I don't see a lot of small niche electronics companies. The UKBritish industry (what's left of it) desperately needs engineers - >>>>>>>>>> >British management thinks they can manage without them.
seems to have more than mainland EU, but still not many. >>>>>>>>>> >
Do British engineers start their own companies?
Not if they've got any sense. It is extremely rare to find an engineer
involved in management in the UK.
I'm not being nationalistic rah-rah USA!! or anything, but I am >>>>>>>>>> interested in how different cultures encourage or discourage >>>>>>>>>> electronics startups.
In the UK inventors are officially encouraged to start small businesses,
taking all the risk themselves. Then they are wrung dry and thrown >>>>>>>>>away.
[...]
I was invoved in one tech startup in Milton Keynes, sort of a spinoff
from Oxford. We nerds took it seriously, but management
pumped-and-dumped and walked away with $20 million dollars and >>>>>>>>>> basically left it to die.
No surprise there!
Maybe the British/European cultural-class perspective keeps the >>>>>>>>peasants in their place, so supresses 90% of a country's inventive >>>>>>>>potential.
Morse, Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, Armstrong, Farnsworth, H+P, >>>>>>>>Jobs+Woz, were mostly kids of working class people and not even >>>>>>>>college grads.
(Armstrong and H+P were more academic.)
The Varian story is interesting.
I think India's caste system denegrates people who work with their >>>>>>>>hands. Communist countries only allow The Party to control anything. >>>>>>>>
I have a policy to never hire PhDs. That much education squashes >>>>>>>>electronic design.
At least one counterexample is known to us.
Joe
Some sort of mutant, probably, a scientist who can design circuits. >>>>>>
Joe
An interesting question is, how does one kick-start a kid into
becoming a circuit designer? By the time they start college, it's >>>>almost too late, and then they mostly learn to code.
At least in our generation, it was obvious quite early in life if we >>>understood how physical things worked, and I think that this is a pure >>>talent, and cannot be learned. My Father was very good at
aeronautical and mechanical theory, but useless at car repair.
Baby story: My Mother used to tell a story about me when I was maybe
two and she was vacuuming something, and the nozzle plugged, and she
is trying to fish the lump out with a bent coat hangar, and I
suggested that she instead plug the hose into the exhaust port, and
blow it clear. Which worked. Now I don't recall any of this, but the >>>story is plausible.
And I would take anything I got my hands on apart. All the neighbors >>>knew that I wanted broken small appliances and the like. I also fixed >>>things for them.
I have one intern who is good. He does the automation for the floats
in the Rose Bowl parade.
Wonder what he played with in his early teens. This may also be an >>>interview question.
I think he's still a teenager.
Joe
I have two basic interview questions. On is a simple two-resistor
voltage divider, 10 volts, 9K, 1K. The other is the apple test: can
you close your eyes and visualize an apple, rotate it around?
Lots of verbal people, like programmers, can't see the apple.
Maybe they see an Apple phone?
On 2025-08-28 20:18, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 17:57:28 -0000 (UTC), piglet
<erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
I was trying to think of some major tek event that originated in
europe, something on the magnitude of transistors, ICs, computer
languages, things like that.
European innovations tend to peter out, or get Americanized.
Some cultural/economic thing going on, I guess.
Airbus is doing good.
Invention of the printed circuit? Or going back further the
transformer? Or
the coke iron smelter?
The Brits invented railroads and all manner of stuff in WW2, like
cavity magnetrons, Bletchley Park (codebreaking), and so on.
But to manufacture on sufficient scale during WW2, these were passed
on to USA industry.
Various pundits recently commented that the US Innovates, China
Imitates, and Europe Regulates.
And many USA innovations are done by immigrants. I'm not complaining,
the USA has the proper environment to make those immigrants to prosper
and innovate. That's an achievement.
On 8/30/2025 1:14 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 23:30, Don Y wrote:
On 8/28/2025 12:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 11:43, Don Y wrote:
This:
-a-a <https://mega.nz/file/
EqonAYZT#RiTYVqnKJq55yAJsyZJ4lGKvFex7m1LSWpezmQ13c-o>
is a 3D model that you can examine *in* the reader (rotate it,
zoom, flip
decompose, etc.).-a Should all authoring tools support such objects? >>>>> Ditto readers?
Nope. Doesn't rotate here, just a static photo.
For the record, which reader are you using?
Several. Foxit, FFx, for instance.
So, none of them support PDF/E?-a It's a rather old standard (2008)
so one woul dhope the FOSS crowd could have sorted it out in the
15+ years since its publication.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/E>
Here's an ad hoc screen capture just showing that the model
CAN be manipulated (this with Adobe Reader 9):
Adobe doesn't run on this computer.
And, apparently, none of the PDF readers have that capability?
<https://mega.nz/file/
gyYDzRzC#5KZJu5YwyiiUWxgKv6veG6EqwFbRse4_cQYll9SPxfA>
Doesn't move. A clock goes round, but does not end.
It's an MP4.-a Did you DL it?-a Or try to watch it *in* the browser?
(which might not work, depending on your browser, as mega uses
end-to-end encryption to deliver content)
When the cursor zips off image at the start of the capture,
I am enabling that special content in the reader "for this
time only".-a When it falls off the image at the end, I am
stopping the recording.
I didn't script the effort to demonstrate its utility.-a Rather, just
poked around at it to show it wasn't a static picture.
I knew it would work with adobe. I don't doubt you, but the feature
that adobe provides to make this work is not universally supported. It
is no surprise to me, I knew.
The whole point of the PDF standard is to allow *portions* of it to be supported, depending on the audience for the reader (as well as authoring tools) -- without requiring ALL of it to be supported.
Like having a CAD program that doesn't handle 3D models, photorealistic rendering, etc. -- it would still be a useful CAD program, just not
capable of addressing the wider range of CAD that one could encounter.
