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A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
My first computer used SC/MP https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
My favourite was the 8749 ( UV erasable version) and later the NSC 800
I used the "extra" EPROM in the device to implement the boot ROM for
the 32K -- on reset, the 7180 would jigger the address decoder so *it* occupied the address space that the 32K accessed for IPL.-a Accesses to
the 7180 were wait-stated so the 7180 could read the 32k's address bus (present on the 7180's I/O pins) to determine what EPROM address was requested.-a It would then lookup the contents of that virtual address
and provide them from the portion of its internal EPROM set aside for
that.-a Then, release the WAIT and allow the 32k's bus cycle to complete.
Of course, bus cycles were slow -- but, only when the 7180 had to intervene.-a Once the 32k told it to map itself OUT of the address
space, the 32k ran at it's rated speed.
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >>https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >>> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
Someplace deeply buried I still have a few i4004 chips...from the daysMy first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM
was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and
data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
For me, the i4004.-a By comparison, a SC/MP was a racecar!-a It took almost
a millisecond to add 12r16 to 34r16.-a And, 5% of the RAM!
While dog slow, it was exciting as I could hold "an entire computer"
in my hands -- instead of the mainframes I had been using previously!
We made a LORAN-C plotter (first of its kind) that would show a ship's progress in real time on an XY plotter bed.-a Of course, the i4004
couldn't handle the hyperbolic grid that LORAN relies upon.-a Nor
compensate for the oblateness of the earth (let alone the spherical geometry).-a So, users had to "phone ahead" with the coordinates in
which they were planning on operating and we'd generate some "magic coefficients" on an '11 that Accounting used for payroll.-a So,
the i4004 just had to map time-differences to these linearized
coordinate axis.
It took the arrival of the 8085 a few years later for us to be
able to do *everything* in the CPU and cut our dependence on
"Accounting"!
[Sheesh!-a Remembering $50 / 2KB EPROM is mind-numbing!-a And, the
efforts we'd undertake to elide *one* from the design...-a Then,
half a megabyte of DRAM on a Z80 just a few years after that!
(sigh)-a The 70's/80's were a great time for MPU designs!
Like the 60's/70's were for CPUs.-a Instead, we have this boring
homogeneous approach to technology that harkens back to the
70's instead of moving forwards...]
I know I kept few *systems*/products from that era.-a But, DO know
I pulled lots of *chips* to retain for hysterical raisins!]
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >>> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
On 8/16/25 14:34, Don Y wrote:
I know I kept few *systems*/products from that era.-a But, DO know
I pulled lots of *chips* to retain for hysterical raisins!]
Someplace deeply buried I still have a few i4004 chips...from the days of program entry from switches & paper tape!
PDP-11? That was a 16-bit machine, you must be thinking of the PDP-8.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >>https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >>> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I recall a similar kit "ELF" at about the same time using the slightly more esoteric RCA 1802 COSMAC device which in one form was space hardened and in another became a staple of various games machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802
Then there were a host of 6502 based machines with video all at once.
The quirky 6502 inspired ARM's design of RISC chips still around today.
On 8/17/2025 1:45 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
I recall a similar kit "ELF" at about the same time using the slightly
more esoteric RCA 1802 COSMAC device which in one form was space
hardened and in another became a staple of various games machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802
Then there were a host of 6502 based machines with video all at once.
The quirky 6502 inspired ARM's design of RISC chips still around today.
The 6502 and 68xx devices were relatively easy to implement frame buffers with simple memory arbiters.-a The 6809*E* variant, as well.-a (annoyingly, Motogorilla didn't second-source the E variant; back then, having a second source was almost a prerequisite for a design-in -- hence the *8* second sources for the 68K!)
Things like the 808x/Z80/68K had funky bus timings that weren't as predictable
for a second "bus master" -- especially as they needed to be accessed coincident with the physical display update (for a raster-scan display;
the requirement is eased for vector displays but they were few and far between).
Then there were a host of 6502 based machines with video all at once.
The quirky 6502 inspired ARM's design of RISC chips still around today.
The 6502 and 68xx devices were relatively easy to implement frame buffers
with simple memory arbiters.-a The 6809*E* variant, as well.-a (annoyingly, >> Motogorilla didn't second-source the E variant; back then, having a second >> source was almost a prerequisite for a design-in -- hence the *8* second
sources for the 68K!)
The 6847 (NTSC) and 6845 memory mapped display chips made it a lot easier about
then. Acorn Atom used the former and BBC Micro used a custom chip that was sort
of like a 6845 with 640x480 maximum resolution (at two colours). Acorn managed
to cobble the 6847 NTSC timings to work OK with UK PAL TVs somehow on the earlier Atom product.
I always had a bit of a soft spot for the TI9900/99k and support chips. I didn't appreciate at the time quite how good they were for realtime context switching until we tried to do it on a 68k (on paper faster).
The 9918 graphics controller was impressive for the time with 256x192 resolution, hardware sprites and relatively affordable.
I later guessed horribly wrong backing the NEC 7220 against IBM's ropey E/VGA.
Japanese market standardised on it for domestic PCs NEC9801 - essential for Kanji displays. It was the first true graphic coprocessor.
Things like the 808x/Z80/68K had funky bus timings that weren't as predictable
for a second "bus master" -- especially as they needed to be accessed
coincident with the physical display update (for a raster-scan display;
the requirement is eased for vector displays but they were few and far
between).
There was an ancient PDP-7 with vector graphics display available to play with.
It was totally unsupported and kept alive by the goodwill of graduate students.
Papertape input and you had to bootstrap with a magic start address set on front panel switches. Asteroids was a favourite when it was working. Vector displays and joysticks were still rare back then.
On 8/16/25 16:24, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"PDP-11? That was a 16-bit machine, you must be thinking of the PDP-8.
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde" >><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >>>https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
My first computer at work was a PDP11, was working at a linear accelerator in Amsterdam.
Guys there were playing with all sort of things, Motorola max board, I played moon landing games on a Commodore PET..
My first computer at home was a Sinclair Z80:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX80
That did not stay simple for long:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/index.html https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/index.html https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html
added more RAM, a floppy disk controller, and then wrote my own CP/M clone to be able to use CP/M programs from the CP/M user club on it.
Yes was 'online' before the internet, we had Viditel (It had several groups, a.o. CP/M user group).
https://techzle.com/viditel-the-forgotten-internet
In those later eighties days I was designing ISA boards for in the IBM PC,
at home still my Z80 running my CP/M :-)
In the late eighties Intel released the 8052AH chip, had build in BASIC, made a nice BASIC computer:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_8049_programmer_board_img_1731.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
click images to enlarge
Mine is still working...
Mostly using Raspberry PI those days, posting this from a Pi4 8 GB
Ported much of my software to it, big 4 TB Toshiba harddisc connected to it. >So, nothing much changed over the years.
On 16/08/2025 19:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Unusually the UK version of this - Clive Sinclair's MK14 was a year earlier actually cheaper u40 and had integral display and
keyboard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14
It was sold as a kit. Putting it together wasn't entirely trivial.
I recall a similar kit "ELF" at about the same time using the slightly more esoteric RCA 1802 COSMAC device which in one form was
space hardened and in another became a staple of various games machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802
Then there were a host of 6502 based machines with video all at once.
The quirky 6502 inspired ARM's design of RISC chips still around today.
--
Martin Brown
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde" >>><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >>>>https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what
pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of >>>12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
My first computer at work was a PDP11, was working at a linear accelerator in Amsterdam.
Guys there were playing with all sort of things, Motorola max board, I played moon landing games on a Commodore PET..
My first computer at home was a Sinclair Z80:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX80
That did not stay simple for long:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html
added more RAM, a floppy disk controller, and then wrote my own CP/M clone to be able to use CP/M programs from the CP/M user
club on it.
Yes was 'online' before the internet, we had Viditel (It had several groups, a.o. CP/M user group).
https://techzle.com/viditel-the-forgotten-internet
In those later eighties days I was designing ISA boards for in the IBM PC, >>at home still my Z80 running my CP/M :-)
In the late eighties Intel released the 8052AH chip, had build in BASIC, made a nice BASIC computer:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_8049_programmer_board_img_1731.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
click images to enlarge
Mine is still working...
Mostly using Raspberry PI those days, posting this from a Pi4 8 GB
Ported much of my software to it, big 4 TB Toshiba harddisc connected to it. >>So, nothing much changed over the years.
We are developing a new product line of PoE boxes based on the RP2040
chip. I was going to use a Pi Pico as a surface-mount component, but
it wastes too much board area and has a goofy USB connector and not
enough i/o pins.
We have defined a tiny 20-pin ribbon cable connector that will run to
a custom adapter board and then to a Pi200, so we can compile and load
and test code.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tzqwg5hejevg5qaibzqaf/Z566_setup_2.jpg?rlkey=dujea1migrzbzztn0gvt61ka6&dl=0
The middle board has scope connectors to make it easy to time routine >execution and irq rates and such. Most programers don't have any idea
of how long it takes to run their code.
The obvious c code sequence
set port pin high
set pin low
etc
makes 7 ns pulses every 14 ns on a 2040. That's amazing.
We have a cute circuit on the blue boxes. There's a pushbutton
available through a hole, with a toothpick or something. A short push
resets the uP. A very long push resets it and enters USB memory-stick
mode. That makes it easy for our customers to upgrade code; long push
and then drag/drop one file.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde" >>>><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP >>>>>https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what
pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of >>>>12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship >>>>propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house >>>>in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
My first computer at work was a PDP11, was working at a linear accelerator in Amsterdam.
Guys there were playing with all sort of things, Motorola max board, I played moon landing games on a Commodore PET..
My first computer at home was a Sinclair Z80:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX80
That did not stay simple for long:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html
added more RAM, a floppy disk controller, and then wrote my own CP/M clone to be able to use CP/M programs from the CP/M user
club on it.
Yes was 'online' before the internet, we had Viditel (It had several groups, a.o. CP/M user group).
https://techzle.com/viditel-the-forgotten-internet
In those later eighties days I was designing ISA boards for in the IBM PC, >>>at home still my Z80 running my CP/M :-)
In the late eighties Intel released the 8052AH chip, had build in BASIC, made a nice BASIC computer:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_8049_programmer_board_img_1731.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
click images to enlarge
Mine is still working...
Mostly using Raspberry PI those days, posting this from a Pi4 8 GB
Ported much of my software to it, big 4 TB Toshiba harddisc connected to it. >>>So, nothing much changed over the years.
We are developing a new product line of PoE boxes based on the RP2040
chip. I was going to use a Pi Pico as a surface-mount component, but
it wastes too much board area and has a goofy USB connector and not
enough i/o pins.
We have defined a tiny 20-pin ribbon cable connector that will run to
a custom adapter board and then to a Pi200, so we can compile and load
and test code.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tzqwg5hejevg5qaibzqaf/Z566_setup_2.jpg?rlkey=dujea1migrzbzztn0gvt61ka6&dl=0
Pi400 ?
The middle board has scope connectors to make it easy to time routine >>execution and irq rates and such. Most programers don't have any idea
of how long it takes to run their code.
The obvious c code sequence
set port pin high
set pin low
etc
makes 7 ns pulses every 14 ns on a 2040. That's amazing.
We have a cute circuit on the blue boxes. There's a pushbutton
available through a hole, with a toothpick or something. A short push >>resets the uP. A very long push resets it and enters USB memory-stick
mode. That makes it easy for our customers to upgrade code; long push
and then drag/drop one file.
I have both my Pi4 now in a metal box, that disables WiFi access and other RF stuff.
Reliability of the Raspies (I have 5 now, 4 running 24/7) is good.
3 run on an UPS.
This is a Pi4 4 GB:
raspberrypi: ~ # ssh -Y 192.168.178.95
root@192.168.178.95's password:
Linux raspi95 4.19.75-v7l+ #1270 SMP Tue Sep 24 18:51:41 BST 2019 armv7l >-bash-5.0# uptime
17:54:46 up 520 days, 7:08, 19 users, load average: 0.53, 0.72, 0.77
Not bad, 520 days!
So distro from 2019, runs 24/7 recording 6 cameras plus some POE sensors... >Plays background music too without a hitch.
Records audio too via an USB stick..
Does more stuff.., logs radiation 24/7, air traffic (via dump1090 with an RTL-SDR USB stick), ship traffic (AIS) with an other RTL-SDR USB stick.
This is an older Pi model, from 2013, runs some servers:
raspberrypi: ~ # ssh -Y pi@192.168.178.73
pi@192.168.178.73's password:
Linux raspi73 3.6.11+ #371 PREEMPT Thu Feb 7 16:31:35 GMT 2013 armv6l >root@raspi73:~# uptime
18:03:53 up 235 days, 2:05, 11 users, load average: 2.18, 2.08, 2.03
last time rebooted to change some wiring, it has, among other things, an air pressure and compass 'hat'.
This I am using to post this:
raspberrypi: ~ # uname -a
Linux raspberrypi 5.15.32-v7l+ #1538 SMP Thu Mar 31 19:39:41 BST 2022 armv7l GNU/Linux
That keyboard-raspi looks nice, keyboard layout is exactly like the small Chinese keyboard I have.
I bought a new Logitech K540 keyboard and mouse last week, the old one fell apart and keys got stuck,
Grease helped only for a while.
And text was gone from many keys..
This one is so far OK and more quiet.
I build a small interface board so I can program Microchip PICs from the Raspberry I/O pins.
The Pi4 are connected to Sitecom USB bridges, both have a 4 TB Toshiba harddisc connected,
The monitor in front of me can select from 3 Pis on the table via an Eminent HDMI switch with a small remote.
And there are several ethernet switches plus a POE Ethernet interface.
I can use the Pi as spectrum analyzer too, using one of the RTL_SDR sticks, >from about 20 MHz to about 1.5 GHz
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
Ported it to Raspberry, added some stuff.
If you want the xpsa Pi code I can make it available.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/xpsa_fm_spectrum.gif
The 6502 felt very restrictive after using SC/MP because of no on-chip 16-bit registers.
I liked the 6809 because like SC/MP it had two accumulators and on-chip 16-bit registers.
After that I got into 68k.
The only thing I disliked about the 6809 and 68k was that they are big endian.
Intel got it right with little endian
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them,
less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia
too; kids these days type and don't solder.
AI is wiping out the coding jobs, so lots of ee grads are unemployed,
and $100K starting salaries are uncommon lately.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them,
less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia
too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need.
Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
AI is wiping out the coding jobs, so lots of ee grads are unemployed,
and $100K starting salaries are uncommon lately.
Maybe, IMO AI is much of a hype.
Mostly google with some lines of code to make it talk in a human way.
The DANGER already there is that it kills your CHOICE.
Sure, I could make it draw a nice picture of Precedent ByeThen smoking dope.
But I can make things that are not real with just normal picture editing tools:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/space/mars/easthills-bunny.jpg
So an other problem for the AI sellers, now scrutiny from governments or dictators or even normal people
about what AI spouts or draws ..
You STILL need a human brain to see what is real and what not.
With the current IQ and some leaders wanting to manipulate ... give them media and AI
and ANYTHING can happen.
A WW3 is almost pre-programmed
Add some religious fanatic idiots like youws, republicans and genocide is the normal again.
All to SELL weapons, to grab land..
What's new since the Romans and earlier?
Killing native Americans?
Darwin applies.
AI or not
And those who still can understand reality will likely win.
How long will it take before AI is convinced Pi is 4? republican AI that is.. >Precedent tramp is killing universities...
His IQ of 73 prevents him from seeing the value of those, the value of research.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-nyma-iq/
Trump IQ test results discovered in former NYMA employee's closet.
In the sixties US could do a moon landing and return, with little electronics hardware.--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
And now, trillions spent on ?
Capitalist system disaster.
Going nowhere.
All hype only, like human made glowball worming.
That said, here in the Netherlands we just had some real warm days (records), 35 C in the south.
I enjoyed it here in the garden..
More south in Spain it was even hotter.
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia
too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need.
Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a
kilovolt.
This is better:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kloxxvhklnodyny5e8fvf/T820_PS_4.jpg?rlkey=dt5y1rm05fvaachpj28an18r5&dl=0
The LTC chip is inside my control loop and the output can't go above
650 no matter what the user wants. That's important when driving GaN
fets. Some things move around in GaN at high fields.
An all analog design doesn't need code to be written and loaded and >documented. We do all that when it's necessary.
AI is wiping out the coding jobs, so lots of ee grads are unemployed,
and $100K starting salaries are uncommon lately.
Maybe, IMO AI is much of a hype.
Mostly google with some lines of code to make it talk in a human way.
The DANGER already there is that it kills your CHOICE.
Typing thousands of lines of mostly unreadable punctuation is silly. >Something more like LabView is the future of programming.
Sure, I could make it draw a nice picture of Precedent ByeThen smoking dope. >>
But I can make things that are not real with just normal picture editing tools:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/space/mars/easthills-bunny.jpg
So an other problem for the AI sellers, now scrutiny from governments or dictators or even normal people
about what AI spouts or draws ..
You STILL need a human brain to see what is real and what not.
With the current IQ and some leaders wanting to manipulate ... give them media and AI
and ANYTHING can happen.
A WW3 is almost pre-programmed
Add some religious fanatic idiots like youws, republicans and genocide is the normal again.
Are youws calling me a religious finatic? That's wrong and obnoxious.
I'm finatic about electronics, women, and skiing.
All to SELL weapons, to grab land..
What's new since the Romans and earlier?
The history of Europe is warfare. Nothing new there.
Killing native Americans?
They were skilled at that before Columbus arrived.
Darwin applies.
AI or not
And those who still can understand reality will likely win.
How long will it take before AI is convinced Pi is 4? republican AI that is.. >>Precedent tramp is killing universities...
His IQ of 73 prevents him from seeing the value of those, the value of research.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-nyma-iq/
Trump IQ test results discovered in former NYMA employee's closet.
Obviously bogus.
"The US military has minimum enlistment standards at about the IQ 85
level."
He's a bilionaire and the President, and you're not.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia >>>>too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need.
Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a
kilovolt.
Bull.
That link, again:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
creates a stabilized -1250 V for a PMT,
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
On 8/16/25 11:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
I didn't see anything about Don at the above URL.
On 8/16/25 14:34, Don Y wrote:
Someplace deeply buried I still have a few i4004 chips...from the daysMy first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM
was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address
and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
For me, the i4004.-a By comparison, a SC/MP was a racecar!-a It took almost >> a millisecond to add 12r16 to 34r16.-a And, 5% of the RAM!
...
I know I kept few *systems*/products from that era.-a But, DO know
I pulled lots of *chips* to retain for hysterical raisins!]
of program entry from switches & paper tape!
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Before:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
I somewhat cleaned up the above schematics using ChatGPT. ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-01.png> ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-02.png> ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-03.png>
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 16:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia >>>>>too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need. >>>>Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a
kilovolt.
Bull.
That link, again:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
creates a stabilized -1250 V for a PMT,
Is there a schematic somewhere?
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
Before:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
I somewhat cleaned up the above schematics using ChatGPT. >><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-01.png> >><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-02.png> >><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-03.png>
Those 'cleaned up' versions are totally useless.
You could have used some contrast enhancement code with infinitely better results
I do appreciate your effort..
But chatgpt? ;-(
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 06:20:45 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:
Before:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
I somewhat cleaned up the above schematics using ChatGPT. >>><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-01.png> >>><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-02.png> >>><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-03.png>
Those 'cleaned up' versions are totally useless.
Not totally useless. They represent what I could do in about 20
minutes with the phone ringing constantly, an email logjam increasing
in size, some interruptions from the neighbors, while defrosting my
two refrigerators. It's now midnight on the US left coast and I
thought I would try again. However, the ChatGPT free version only
gives me 30 queries per day. I soon exceeded this quota. I should
subscribe to the $20/month "plus" plan, but since I don't have any AI >projects in the queue, I can't justify the expense. I'll try again
tomorrow after my quota resets. ChatGPT has OCR (optical character >recognition) which might be able to read your hand scribbling making
it less useless (or more useful).
Incidentally, I really liked the way the AI straightened out the
interconnect wires on the schematics. A simple contrast enhancement
couldn't do that.
You could have used some contrast enhancement code with infinitely better results
I did. I started by using Irfanview (Windoze) to cleanup the image.
That improved readability a little, but because the contrast was not >consistent across the page, the readable parts were obscured by large
black or white blotches.
This was the first time I've tried to clean up hand scribbling using
an AI, so there was a learning curve. If I can get OCR to work, I
should be able to fix the letters and numbers.
I do appreciate your effort..
Thank you. I really like the projects on your web pile. However, my >inability to read the schematics has made understanding how the
circuitry works an ordeal.
But chatgpt? ;-(
I'm very new to AI and have done very little instructional reading. At
this point, I only care about which programs will do the job (and cost
the least). If and when I become more familiar with the various AI
programs and vendors, I might consider politics, ethics, energy
consumption, etc in my choice of vendors.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 16:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>>>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia >>>>>>too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need. >>>>>Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a >>>>kilovolt.
Bull.
That link, again:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
creates a stabilized -1250 V for a PMT,
Is there a schematic somewhere?
scroll down, its big, like you once asked for.
Memory loss?
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 07:44:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Before:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part1_img_1750.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part2_img_1755.jpg
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/pantel2_diagram_part3_img_1752.jpg
I somewhat cleaned up the above schematics using ChatGPT. ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-01.png> ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-02.png> ><https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Pantel/schematic-03.png>
1. Go to: <https://chatgpt.com>
2. Upload your illegible and faded pencil scribbles to ChatGPT. Just
click, hold and drag to the AI.
3. Ask the AI to clean up the mess with something like this:
"Enhance the lines and text. Make it look neat and readable."
4. Download results. It took about 4 minutes per file.
There are some errors where the AI couldn't read your symbology or
scibbling. To be fair, I couldn't read them either. You can probably
fix the text and symbols with a vector graphics editor such as
Inkscape or LibreOffice Draw. I haven't tried these on your
schematics yet.
I hope this helps.
An arcade 'game' named Bio-Rhythm III by Compunetic Devices, from the late 70s,
used the I4004, along with 4201 (Clock), 4001 (ROM), and 4002 (RAM).
Odd machine, and folks here may recall the Bio-Rhythm craze of the 60s and 70s.
About 2/3 of the way down this page:
https://flippers.com/gam4sale.html (remember when .htm(l) pages could have only
8 characters for the name? I never change page names if I can possibly help it...)
On a side note, I have something like 16 of these machines still packed in their factory boxes in my warehouse. Trying to figure out what to DO with them!
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:107s4s2$269dv$1@dont-email.me...
On 16/08/2025 19:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Unusually the UK version of this - Clive Sinclair's MK14 was a year earlier actually cheaper +U40 and had integral display and
keyboard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14
It was sold as a kit. Putting it together wasn't entirely trivial.
Mine worked almost first time after assembly.
It's hard to remember all the details now but the keyboard was useless so I built my own.
And when I added the VDU I had to change the crystal from 4.43 to 4 MHz.
There was one little issue with the processor's SA and SB inputs being open circuit on the edge connector.
For some reason this caused programs to fail to execute when pressing Go.
It taught me a valuable lesson about checking for unused inputs and using pull up or pull down as needed.
The 6502 felt very restrictive after using SC/MP because of no on-chip 16-bit registers.
I liked the 6809 because like SC/MP it had two accumulators and on-chip 16-bit registers.
After that I got into 68k.
The only thing I disliked about the 6809 and 68k was that they are big endian.
Intel got it right with little endian.
After the MK14 I never bought another Sinclair machine, so no ZX81, Spectrum, or QL.
The QL looked tempting but my experience with the MK14 said wait and see.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 06:23:24 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 16:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>>>>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia >>>>>>>too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need. >>>>>>Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a >>>>>kilovolt.
Bull.
That link, again:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
creates a stabilized -1250 V for a PMT,
Is there a schematic somewhere?
scroll down, its big, like you once asked for.
Memory loss?
The thing that looks like a used doormat? I'd fire anyone who did
anything like that.
On 17/08/2025 17:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
The ZX80 was a starting point fo me in starting my own business... I
used to go to Woolworths and buy the kit for -u30? put them together and >sell them in my computer shop for -u50.. Then on to all sorts with Vic20? >Commodore 64, amstrad machines and all sorts of periferal add ons that I >designed and built. Google Ram Electronics Music Mchine/Ram Turbo etc.
Happy days, Made enough money to buy 2 factories outright, especiall
after Sinclair went bust and we did a massive Xmas deal with Boots and >Dixons to supply a joystick+ interface for all the old sell off stock.. :)
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 06:23:24 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 16:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:47:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
SED is increasingly about connecting computing boxes and coding them, >>>>>>>>less and less about designing circuits. That's the trend in academia >>>>>>>>too; kids these days type and don't solder.
I see you 'designed' a HV power supply >using a PWM chip<
I do the same with a Microchip PIC that I PROGRAM to do what I need. >>>>>>>Bit more flexible.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
I didn't "design" it, I designed it. No PIC is going to make a >>>>>>kilovolt.
Bull.
That link, again:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
creates a stabilized -1250 V for a PMT,
Is there a schematic somewhere?
scroll down, its big, like you once asked for.
Memory loss?
The thing that looks like a used doormat? I'd fire anyone who did
anything like that.
So, without a job, are you begging now?
Chips, who needs chips?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/PMT_regulated_power_supply_diagram_img_3182.jpg https://panteltje.nl/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg https://panteltje.nl/pub/PMT_HV_generator_solder_side_img_3172.jpg
And PCB's? How many of those weird pulse things do you sell?
For a one-off just wire it and have the product the same day working and ready to ship.
:-)
On 17/08/2025 17:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:107s4s2$269dv$1@dont-email.me...
On 16/08/2025 19:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Unusually the UK version of this - Clive Sinclair's MK14 was a year earlier actually cheaper L40 and had integral display and
keyboard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14
It was sold as a kit. Putting it together wasn't entirely trivial.
Mine worked almost first time after assembly.
It's hard to remember all the details now but the keyboard was useless so I built my own.
And when I added the VDU I had to change the crystal from 4.43 to 4 MHz.
There was one little issue with the processor's SA and SB inputs being open circuit on the edge connector.
For some reason this caused programs to fail to execute when pressing Go.
It taught me a valuable lesson about checking for unused inputs and using pull up or pull down as needed.
The 6502 felt very restrictive after using SC/MP because of no on-chip 16-bit registers.
I liked the 6809 because like SC/MP it had two accumulators and on-chip 16-bit registers.
After that I got into 68k.
The only thing I disliked about the 6809 and 68k was that they are big endian.
Intel got it right with little endian.
After the MK14 I never bought another Sinclair machine, so no ZX81, Spectrum, or QL.
The QL looked tempting but my experience with the MK14 said wait and see.
The ZX80 was a starting point fo me in starting my own business...
I used to go to Woolworths and buy the kit for u30? put them together and sell them in my computer shop for u50.. Then on to all
sorts with Vic20? Commodore 64, amstrad machines and all sorts of periferal add ons that I designed and built. Google Ram
Electronics Music Mchine/Ram Turbo etc. Happy days, Made enough money to buy 2 factories outright, especiall after Sinclair went
bust and we did a massive Xmas deal with Boots and Dixons to supply a joystick+ interface for all the old sell off stock.. :)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
After disassembling and figuring out how the BASIC worked I was impressed with the efficiency of the coding. At the time I also didn't know that this was
because Gates & co refined it for small memory footprint and not necessarily for efficient performance.
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North
America these days, what could you use?
"TTman" <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote in message news:10824e8$3q2kf$2@dont-email.me...
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North
America these days, what could you use?
I do expect any document, including a sketch or a whiteboard photo, to
be clear and legible and have a visible title, author, and date, and
to be reasonably named and archived.
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is
a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did whenIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just mindless doodles.
he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I
would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hours
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show
them to us at all.
On 8/20/2025 1:00 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking
process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is
a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified.
A document has to exist in a context. A document that only YOU can understand >has little value to anyone besides yourself. It's just a mnemonic aide.
The problem with such documents is that the material needed to "refresh"
your memory changes, over time. What *may* suffice to remind you of >"important" details a week from now can be totally useless a MONTH from now.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did whenIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just >mindless doodles.
he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I
would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hours
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show
them to us at all.
>On 8/20/2025 1:00 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking
process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is >>> a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified.
A document has to exist in a context. A document that only YOU can understand
has little value to anyone besides yourself. It's just a mnemonic aide.
The problem with such documents is that the material needed to "refresh"
your memory changes, over time. What *may* suffice to remind you of
"important" details a week from now can be totally useless a MONTH from now. >>
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did whenIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just
he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I
would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hours
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show
them to us at all.
mindless doodles.
Only to the clue-less.
Rosetta stone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
Some of those drawings I made are now 57 years or more old
all at home research..
At work we had our own drawing department and my own secretary at times.
She would point out some of my Englitch typing errors...
I used what I discovered at work though :-)
Miracle I still have some of those old pieces of paper.
Some of that old stuff I build at home still works.
For some designs done at work I was under disclosure rules.
Bit of electronics.. Learn from it or shut up.
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
On 8/20/2025 3:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
Notice a difference in the QUALITY of my "notes"?
<https://mega.nz/file/UrIFiaYS#wzhZQCyLUZ_HmKGylvPCoQLn3WyyfBeN2MhvnEm7XPs> ><https://mega.nz/file/o6RDXLJb#JnwL___m1c_jEONbBPDXjbMS9A5zg787-OQcgEcxenE> ><https://mega.nz/file/Qy4EUI5L#ttqhbDMOzYu36JNNgwkocmUu5yZ573bBD380uRgzEx4>
Cuz I want others to understand what I've done as well as remind
myself of *why* each action/optimization was necessary!
<https://mega.nz/file/Y2IhDZCT#VxtcVB2upQpa2YFUFdAMTwEA5yoaA7JCy8qQNsLq2M4> ><https://mega.nz/file/kuIhBaAb#NXEl1YsD1mBUhSvey9lIhgwimqHP-yoD2z8tQcT4tYA> ><https://mega.nz/file/1zgVhBaL#ONb1ntToQy1EccI89DijO201I5WK5DL0IUiissMdCcQ> ><https://mega.nz/file/d3RU2IQb#g--B6NA46NzyqVZY6erQ7zSaMwqsp-9t0SKIMXtoOvg> ><https://mega.nz/file/0zJklZoL#H4NVm9J66hReVcWbHkp2q8zwRxFV0gTRnqcxCdIywQg>
And, from days when I had to resort to a typewriter:
<https://mega.nz/file/AqIDDaJL#kSCPyAb5-GW8hwWGoTun7sxm2Hjgl58xMETrLga7tJI>
But, if all you can afford is scraps of napkins and no time to INVEST
in documenting your work, then, perhaps, its not WORTH much?
On 8/20/2025 3:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>On 8/20/2025 1:00 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking >>>> process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is >>>> a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified.
A document has to exist in a context. A document that only YOU can understand
has little value to anyone besides yourself. It's just a mnemonic aide. >>>
The problem with such documents is that the material needed to "refresh" >>> your memory changes, over time. What *may* suffice to remind you of
"important" details a week from now can be totally useless a MONTH from now.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did when >>>> he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I >>>> would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hoursIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just >>> mindless doodles.
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show
them to us at all.
Only to the clue-less.
Rosetta stone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
Some of those drawings I made are now 57 years or more old
all at home research..
At work we had our own drawing department and my own secretary at times.
So, those drawings were likely made to a standard of
workmmanship, not just doodles.
She would point out some of my Englitch typing errors...
I used what I discovered at work though :-)
Miracle I still have some of those old pieces of paper.
Some of that old stuff I build at home still works.
For some designs done at work I was under disclosure rules.
For MOST of my career, I've been under NDAs. So what?
Bit of electronics.. Learn from it or shut up.
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
You should look more. I've got a 30+ year history in this group.
Any code or circuits from *you*?
On 8/20/2025 3:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
Notice a difference in the QUALITY of my "notes"?
<https://mega.nz/file/UrIFiaYS#wzhZQCyLUZ_HmKGylvPCoQLn3WyyfBeN2MhvnEm7XPs> >> <https://mega.nz/file/o6RDXLJb#JnwL___m1c_jEONbBPDXjbMS9A5zg787-OQcgEcxenE> >> <https://mega.nz/file/Qy4EUI5L#ttqhbDMOzYu36JNNgwkocmUu5yZ573bBD380uRgzEx4> >>
Cuz I want others to understand what I've done as well as remind
myself of *why* each action/optimization was necessary!
<https://mega.nz/file/Y2IhDZCT#VxtcVB2upQpa2YFUFdAMTwEA5yoaA7JCy8qQNsLq2M4> >> <https://mega.nz/file/kuIhBaAb#NXEl1YsD1mBUhSvey9lIhgwimqHP-yoD2z8tQcT4tYA> >> <https://mega.nz/file/1zgVhBaL#ONb1ntToQy1EccI89DijO201I5WK5DL0IUiissMdCcQ> >> <https://mega.nz/file/d3RU2IQb#g--B6NA46NzyqVZY6erQ7zSaMwqsp-9t0SKIMXtoOvg> >> <https://mega.nz/file/0zJklZoL#H4NVm9J66hReVcWbHkp2q8zwRxFV0gTRnqcxCdIywQg> >>
And, from days when I had to resort to a typewriter:
<https://mega.nz/file/AqIDDaJL#kSCPyAb5-GW8hwWGoTun7sxm2Hjgl58xMETrLga7tJI>
Yea all much like you postings, babble.
\Only code I dit see was while ..
But, if all you can afford is scraps of napkins and no time to INVEST
in documenting your work, then, perhaps, its not WORTH much?
On 8/20/2025 3:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>On 8/20/2025 1:00 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If anyA document has to exist in a context. A document that only YOU can understand
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking >>>>> process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is >>>>> a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified. >>>>
has little value to anyone besides yourself. It's just a mnemonic aide. >>>>
The problem with such documents is that the material needed to "refresh" >>>> your memory changes, over time. What *may* suffice to remind you of
"important" details a week from now can be totally useless a MONTH from now.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did when >>>>> he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I >>>>> would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hoursIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just >>>> mindless doodles.
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show >>>>> them to us at all.
Only to the clue-less.
Rosetta stone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
Some of those drawings I made are now 57 years or more old
all at home research..
At work we had our own drawing department and my own secretary at times.
So, those drawings were likely made to a standard of
workmmanship, not just doodles.
She would point out some of my Englitch typing errors...
I used what I discovered at work though :-)
Miracle I still have some of those old pieces of paper.
Some of that old stuff I build at home still works.
For some designs done at work I was under disclosure rules.
For MOST of my career, I've been under NDAs. So what?
Bit of electronics.. Learn from it or shut up.
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
You should look more. I've got a 30+ year history in this group.
I started Usenet before 1998.
Windows 3.1 with Trumpet winsock and Free Agent
I do not remember seeing you in this group 25 years ago even.
When Linux became available in 1998 (SLS Linux)
there was no Free Agent for it, so I wrote NewsFleX.
Still using that, now on a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, to reply to you.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
Any code or circuits from *you*?
My website
panteltje.online
has plenty of code, projects.
Go to downloads.
All opensource.
Yours?
Do you have a website?
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
I do expect any document, including a sketch or a whiteboard photo, to
be clear and legible and have a visible title, author, and date, and
to be reasonably named and archived.
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any
detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking >process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is
a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper
drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did when
he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I
would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hours
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show
them to us at all.
On 8/20/2025 6:11 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On 8/20/2025 3:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>On 8/20/2025 1:00 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:So, those drawings were likely made to a standard of
The document should be subservient to the ideas behind it. If any >>>>>> detail which is irelevant at that stage gets in the way of the thinking >>>>>> process, it is not serving its purpose. A back-of-an-envelope sketch is >>>>>> a perfectly valid way of putting an idea down on paper, the proper >>>>>> drawing with all the extra details can come later if it is justified. >>>>>A document has to exist in a context. A document that only YOU can understand
has little value to anyone besides yourself. It's just a mnemonic aide. >>>>>
The problem with such documents is that the material needed to "refresh" >>>>> your memory changes, over time. What *may* suffice to remind you of >>>>> "important" details a week from now can be totally useless a MONTH from now.
Jan's drawings appear to be reminders to himself about what he did when >>>>>> he made a particular piece of equipment; as such, they are adequate. I >>>>>> would rather he showed them to us in that format than waste hoursIf they don't convey enough information to "show us", then they are just >>>>> mindless doodles.
re-drawing them or simply decide it is too much trouble and not show >>>>>> them to us at all.
Only to the clue-less.
Rosetta stone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
Some of those drawings I made are now 57 years or more old
all at home research..
At work we had our own drawing department and my own secretary at times. >>>
workmmanship, not just doodles.
She would point out some of my Englitch typing errors...
I used what I discovered at work though :-)
Miracle I still have some of those old pieces of paper.
Some of that old stuff I build at home still works.
For some designs done at work I was under disclosure rules.
For MOST of my career, I've been under NDAs. So what?
Bit of electronics.. Learn from it or shut up.
You bable a lot but I never see circuits or code from you.
You should look more. I've got a 30+ year history in this group.
I started Usenet before 1998.
Windows 3.1 with Trumpet winsock and Free Agent
I do not remember seeing you in this group 25 years ago even.
Here's a post from 1995:
<https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/cGNEidnBr78/m/w03WX2tyWsAJ>
I guess you just must not be that observant (or know how to use
a search engine in 2025)
I have no idea what email addresses and monikers I used before that.
When Linux became available in 1998 (SLS Linux)
I built my first NetBSD machine in May of 1993 (0.8R) And, ran
OpusV (Sys V r3.2) on a "Personal Mainframe" since 1985 (hosted
on a 13M 386) using rn (and later trn and gnus).
there was no Free Agent for it, so I wrote NewsFleX.
Still using that, now on a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, to reply to you.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
Any code or circuits from *you*?
My website
panteltje.online
has plenty of code, projects.
Go to downloads.
All opensource.
Yours?
Do you have a website?
Of course not! Why would I want to waste time maintaining a PUBLIC site
when I only care to share my work with clients and fellow colleagues?
I've always had plenty of clients so "advertising" was never a requirement!
My out-facing server is only accessible with knowledge of a particular
"knock sequence" -- so it is invisible to probes. You can also fetch >information from it via an unattended email agent -- but, you'd have to
know the email address to which to direct your queries! :>
You'll find patches submitted by me to various FOSS projects -- but
rarely directly attributable as such (cuz I never want to dick with
having commit privileges on foreign repositories)
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >>> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:08:50 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:107qk1h$1seso$1@dont-email.me...
A bunch of stuff about our late regular, Don Lancaster too
https://hackaday.com/2025/08/16/the-nibbler-was-quite-a-scamp/
My first computer used SC/MP
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinclair+MK14&udm=2
It taught me everything I needed to know about what RAM was, what ROM was, what firmware (known as "the monitor") was, how a
microprocessor was interfaced to external devices, what an address and data bus was, how to code in machine code, what pointer
registers and accumulators did, etc.
Programs were stored on my reel to reel tape recorder.
I still have it in a box here somewhere, along with an MK14 VDU.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / >>> Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >>
My first computer was a DEC PDP-11, with a teletype and 4K words of
12-bit core memory. I used it to simulate 32,000 HP steamship
propulsion control systems. It cost $12K, the price of a modest house
in New Orleans.
I was a freshman EE student at Tulane.
Intel offered an 8052 with built-in BASIC interpreter. It tokenized your
input (to economize on memory as well as provide JIT level performance
as tokens could just be dispatched via a table to "machine code").
So, if you input:
10 LeT X = 000005
and then LISTed your program, you would get:
10 LET X = 5
Gates BASIC also used tokenized keywords as a jump address table index.
It skipped spaces completely so it may have produced 10LETX=5 or it may
have kept the spaces in the program but ignored them, I forget which.
Because it ignored spaces I never used any. 10X=5 would also be fine.
I think later versions of Gates BASIC did require some spaces,
possibly when a variable name came immediately before a reserved word,
so IFA=BTHEN... had to be IFA=B THEN...
That reminds me of learning about the issues which can arise when comparing floating point numbers. A and B might have each printed as 1, but subtract 1 to see why they compared as not equal.
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North
America these days, what could you use?
How many *displayed* lines?
Not sure. When I last used it I'd think nothing of taking the back off the
TV and adjusting the height.
Do you have a website?
Of course not! Why would I want to waste time maintaining a PUBLIC site
when I only care to share my work with clients and fellow colleagues?
I've always had plenty of clients so "advertising" was never a requirement!
Then why post here???
My out-facing server is only accessible with knowledge of a particular
"knock sequence" -- so it is invisible to probes. You can also fetch
information from it via an unattended email agent -- but, you'd have to
know the email address to which to direct your queries! :>
Once I was runing the server at home, easy, had a fixed IP address.
Now I am 100% 4G portable, and the server is hosted and maintained by some company.
Saves me checking the logs each day for attacks.
You'll find patches submitted by me to various FOSS projects -- but
rarely directly attributable as such (cuz I never want to dick with
having commit privileges on foreign repositories)
Contributing code to open-source is what made - and makes Linux great.
And better than Billy the Gates for money only work.
And a lot of stuff I could not have done or even have known about without open source code
and even things from people in this and other groups.
My first computer was a Leading Edge 386SX with 1 meg of RAM, later upgraded to
2, clocked at 16 MHz.
It cost $1000 in circa 1990 dollars including a VGA monitor, what a deal!
It served well into the early 2000s as an email/AOL machine for my late father
after I'd moved on to more modern desktops
Intel offered an 8052 with built-in BASIC interpreter. It tokenized your >>> input (to economize on memory as well as provide JIT level performance
as tokens could just be dispatched via a table to "machine code").
So, if you input:
10 LeT X = 000005
and then LISTed your program, you would get:
10 LET X = 5
Gates BASIC also used tokenized keywords as a jump address table index.
It skipped spaces completely so it may have produced 10LETX=5 or it may
have kept the spaces in the program but ignored them, I forget which.
Because it ignored spaces I never used any. 10X=5 would also be fine.
Inserting a space on output costs nothing (in the code):
print(TOKEN)
print(' ')
etc.
I think later versions of Gates BASIC did require some spaces,
possibly when a variable name came immediately before a reserved word,
so IFA=BTHEN... had to be IFA=B THEN...
If variable names are just single characters, you *might* be able to
get away with that (I'd have to think of all of the syntax possibilities
to see if there are any conflicts in the grammar that whitespace would resolve).
That reminds me of learning about the issues which can arise when comparing >> floating point numbers. A and B might have each printed as 1, but subtract 1 >> to see why they compared as not equal.
Yes, a common newbie flaw. As is cancellation. (amusing to see people thinking that "numbers are numbers"!)
I've found subtle bugs like:
LD HL,(256*HIGHBYTE)+LOWBYTE
*not* being interpreted as:
LD HL,<16bit-immediate-data>
but, rather:
LD HL,(<16bit-address>)
because the grammar for the parser was incorrectly designed and implemented "ad hoc". Either implement it correctly *or* throw an error on my above use!
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North
America these days, what could you use?
How many *displayed* lines?
Not sure. When I last used it I'd think nothing of taking the back off the >> TV and adjusting the height.
I guess it depends, then, on how much you intend to *use* that.
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:10854v5$g5ql$1@dont-email.me...
I think later versions of Gates BASIC did require some spaces,
possibly when a variable name came immediately before a reserved word,
so IFA=BTHEN... had to be IFA=B THEN...
If variable names are just single characters, you *might* be able to
get away with that (I'd have to think of all of the syntax possibilities
to see if there are any conflicts in the grammar that whitespace would resolve).
Variable names could have more than two characters but only the first two characters were used.
I found out that numeric variables occupied 6 bytes. Two for the name and 4 for the "packed" value.
so IFAB=BCTHEN... would use BC as the variable name and successfully tokenize THEN.
IFAB=BCDTHEN... would ignore D but D would still be stored and listed.
IF AB=BCDEFTHEN would cause a syntax error because DEF is a reserved word. IFAB=TOTHEN would also generate syntax error because TO is reserved.
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North >>>>> America these days, what could you use?
How many *displayed* lines?
Not sure. When I last used it I'd think nothing of taking the back off the >>> TV and adjusting the height.
I guess it depends, then, on how much you intend to *use* that.
Might be better to just offer it for sale to anyone who might want it.
On 8/20/2025 12:18 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:10854v5$g5ql$1@dont-email.me...
I think later versions of Gates BASIC did require some spaces,
possibly when a variable name came immediately before a reserved word, >>>> so IFA=BTHEN... had to be IFA=B THEN...
If variable names are just single characters, you *might* be able to
get away with that (I'd have to think of all of the syntax possibilities >>> to see if there are any conflicts in the grammar that whitespace would resolve).
Variable names could have more than two characters but only the first two characters were used.
I stored (and checked) variable names of arbitrary length (the name was stored in the string space and a token assigned to it). Lazy coders
would obviously opt for short names to reduce the cost of typographical errors (cuz there was no "screen oriented editor", typos meant retyping!)
<https://mega.nz/file/42BgzTqT#Q7yM9Tg75IYZ-M65rlOXuaiV1oGym9i79ByJU172AWE>
I found out that numeric variables occupied 6 bytes. Two for the name and 4 for the "packed" value.
I supported integer and floating point variables -- because one relies on integers a lot in most algorithms; "counting" with a float is just a silly waste of resources!!
so IFAB=BCTHEN... would use BC as the variable name and successfully tokenize THEN.
IFAB=BCDTHEN... would ignore D but D would still be stored and listed.
IF AB=BCDEFTHEN would cause a syntax error because DEF is a reserved word. >> IFAB=TOTHEN would also generate syntax error because TO is reserved.
Thus, you see why whitespace has value? :>
*If you wanted to display 625 line video (no colour needed) in North >>>>>> America these days, what could you use?
How many *displayed* lines?
Not sure. When I last used it I'd think nothing of taking the back off the >>>> TV and adjusting the height.
I guess it depends, then, on how much you intend to *use* that.
Might be better to just offer it for sale to anyone who might want it.
Finding homes for things YOU thought were valuable/of interest is a distressing
exercise! Esp when you look at the cost (to yourself in time/effort/materials)
to "pass things along".
Local magnet schools, etc. are a win as they will often be able to make
use of donations and, even if you don't take a write-off for it, you
can be rid of it in a day (a short drive to drop it off).
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:10859sl$heg6$1@dont-email.me...
On 8/20/2025 12:18 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:10854v5$g5ql$1@dont-email.me...
I think later versions of Gates BASIC did require some spaces,
possibly when a variable name came immediately before a reserved word, >>>>> so IFA=BTHEN... had to be IFA=B THEN...
If variable names are just single characters, you *might* be able to
get away with that (I'd have to think of all of the syntax possibilities >>>> to see if there are any conflicts in the grammar that whitespace would resolve).
Variable names could have more than two characters but only the first two characters were used.
I stored (and checked) variable names of arbitrary length (the name was
stored in the string space and a token assigned to it). Lazy coders
would obviously opt for short names to reduce the cost of typographical
errors (cuz there was no "screen oriented editor", typos meant retyping!)
<https://mega.nz/file/42BgzTqT#Q7yM9Tg75IYZ-M65rlOXuaiV1oGym9i79ByJU172AWE>
No PEEK or POKE? Not sure I could cope with that :)
I wrote an extension for a Gates BASIC so the program could modify itself. This would allow program lines to be inserted and deleted while executing from other lines.
Very dangerous I know but one reason I did this was because the BASICs didn't have a
means to evaluate and arbitrary expression in a string. So I did that by making it able to add/change
a line in the program as something like 100 X=<expression>
I found out that numeric variables occupied 6 bytes. Two for the name and 4 for the "packed" value.
I supported integer and floating point variables -- because one relies on
integers a lot in most algorithms; "counting" with a float is just a silly >> waste of resources!!
The Gates BASICs I used had only one numeric type. I think it was safe to assume integer if you
kept to integers below a specific number (possibly +/- 8388608) but I can't remember any other details.
so IFAB=BCTHEN... would use BC as the variable name and successfully tokenize THEN.
IFAB=BCDTHEN... would ignore D but D would still be stored and listed.
IF AB=BCDEFTHEN would cause a syntax error because DEF is a reserved word. >>> IFAB=TOTHEN would also generate syntax error because TO is reserved.
Thus, you see why whitespace has value? :>
One reason for avoiding spaces at the time was that although I don't recall writing a program
which wouldn't fit in 8K I do remember running out of data space.
I subsequently learned to use spaces, particularly when advanced concepts such as lower
case were also allowed :)
On 8/20/2025 10:05 AM, bitrex wrote:
My first computer was a Leading Edge 386SX with 1 meg of RAM, later
upgraded to 2, clocked at 16 MHz.
It cost $1000 in circa 1990 dollars including a VGA monitor, what a deal!
It served well into the early 2000s as an email/AOL machine for my
late father after I'd moved on to more modern desktops
My first *PC* was a 386/25 with 1M ram, expanded to 13M.
For $8000 (incl 14" color monitor).
I bought two as I always buy two (backup) of everything.
Each paid for themselves 50-100 times over with billable time!
On 20/08/2025 20:10, Don Y wrote:
My first *PC* was a 386/25 with 1M ram, expanded to 13M.
For $8000 (incl 14" color monitor).
The first IBM PC I encountered was in 1981 with twin floppys and 16kb ram (quickly upgraded to 64kb). My supervisor got one of the first available in the
UK (Fortran compiler & Flight simulator to go with it). It was *very* different
from the IBM mainframe experience. The first thing I wrote for it was a terminal emulator to access our source code.
My first home *PC* was an Epson NEC V30 CPU with monochrome Hercules graphics
640x480, 512MB ram and a whopping 10MB hard disk -u1k in 1985.
I soon had to add a extra 20MB HD in one of the ISA slots.
Our works PCs were 1024x1024 NEC 7220 graphics, IEEE488, IBM XT or AT at about
the same time costing about -u2k5 each (half that on the graphics card and colour display). It did 16 colours at that resolution.
There was an optional upgrade available to 256 colours for $$$$ - I can't recall any customer taking that option after seeing the price.
Prior to that Olivetti M20's using the ill fated Captain Zilog Z8000 and a weird dialect of their own Basic.
I bought two as I always buy two (backup) of everything.
Each paid for themselves 50-100 times over with billable time!
I prefer to stagger my purchases alternating between desktop replacement and portable laptop (although I abuse my laptops so much that they often end up not
having much battery life for working on the move). Thankfully most long distance transportation these days provides power.
My upgrade heuristic was to replace each time a new machine would be 3x faster
than its predecessor at the sort of CPU intensive tasks I do.
I haven't spent money on hardware in more than a decade.-a There are just SO many surplus machines available for $0 that it is foolish to spend money unless you need bleeding edge performance.-a (I opt for larger machines
that have limited resale value due to their size, weight, etc.-a This means they are destined for the tip so can easily be coaxed into the back of my car!)
