| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 25 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 27:19:40 |
| Calls: | 491 |
| Files: | 1,078 |
| Messages: | 69,961 |
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:So now not only have you done 2, 200 mile rides with an average speed of 20 mph, but you can read ocean charts just as well. That happens to be a shoreline chart and even has a shoal in it all which allow for accurate charting. But like the idiot you are, you comment on something you don't have a CLUE what you're taling about.
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>Yet another reason why I call him Flunky.
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only available where there is some land to use as a reference.
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:You can't even navigate a bicycle. Stop telling us about things you don't understand. Compasses are unreliable and you navigate by stars or the Sun. Knowing your own longitute and latitude you can AIM at a position on a land mass whose longitude and latitude is known using the unreliable compass and correcting course as necessary.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:52:17 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the >earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the >horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
.
I wonder which ocean Junior thinks the Gulf of America is.Dumbshit can't even tell that the chart he showed was near a coastline.
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/howmanyoceans.html
You are getting all carried away.I have to wonder about people who feel the need to talk like experts about things he know not the slightest thing about. Liebermann does this all of the time. He believes that going to college for 6 years to get a 4 year degree makes him even smarter and says the most preposterous things. I rode by a reservoir for YEARS and then in a heavy rain season mud was washed out of the hills and filled in that reservoir. I mention that and Liebermann claimed there was never a reservoir there. He was never there, he didn't even know where it was but he could definitively say I was lying! Now they are trying to dig that reservoir out again so that subsequent rainy season will fill it again because it services the fire hydrants in all of the surrounding communities.
In more detail there are no charts (navel term for map) covering
solely open ocean, which the original poster was trying to get across.
your reference above was to land reference to water.
Your reference to seeing or not seeing simply shows why one uses a
chart. If you can see then why would you need a chart?
John B. <jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That?s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas you?d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficultRoger, charts of coastal regions are very accurate just for that reason,
but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you?ll arrive.
Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 17:33:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
John B. <jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Flunky once saw a sailboat, that makes him an expert. I have a degree in commercial navigation and he says that it is a "sailing school".Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
Roger, have you EVER actually looked at an ocean chart? The top and sides show latitude and logitude. These days most of them show ocean depths but small boats do not carry depth indicators which enough power to show depths of that magnitude. Knowing the depth of the ocean at a particular longitude and latitude doesn't do you much good since you can't measure it and most of them are not very accurate anyway. Details are only accurate along the continental shelves but mostly along the shorelines.No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist
and are sold for folks who do.
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
John B. <jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG >>>>>>>
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist >and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
Who needs to see the sea floor when traveling from GB to New YorkWho has a depth sounder of such power?
City?
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 11:15:50 -0700, John B.Oh fuck, now Liebermann is an expert on navigation as well.
<jbslocomb@fictitious.site> wrote:
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but >water.... and you want a chart?
Not exactly a chart but rather a plotting sheet: <https://www.google.com/search?q=3dnavigation%20plotting%20sheet&udm=3d2>
I used such plotting sheets, along with parallels, compass, dividers, protractor, rule, pencil, nautical clock (or WWV receiver), HO-229
book(s), etc for navigation:
<https://www.westmarine.com/plotting-tools/>
Dead reckoning also works under water, but I've never tried it. Also
useful for Loran-C if the plotting sheet includes lane lines. <https://www.ebay.com/itm/223608066742>
No GPS needed although I typically used a sextant and WWV (time)
receiver.
You are on a voyage out of sight of land (crossingBecause this is nothing more than more lies from Lie bermann.
Atlantic in small sailboat) that will take a number of weeks out of
sight of land and you go through all that?
why not just noon sights and a sextant if you are really fussy.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>Flunky doesn't know anything so like Liebermann, he takes a potshot. In one place or another I showed my degree in commercial navigation from the school of navigation over in Marin. So he waits long enough so that I have filed it so far back in my records to say that I never did so.
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=3d11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Depth chart of the Louisiana offshore oil port? Really? No, that's not
"out in the ocean."
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike RyderJeff, why don't you shut up while you're so far behind that you're out of sight of land? You don't know one thing about what you're talking about and are a laughing stock.
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder >><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're >>part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers": >><https://www.google.com/search?q=3dunderwater%20markers&udm=3d2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=3dgulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=3dgulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps. >><https://www.google.com/search?q=3dfiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water): >><https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map: >><https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum >>navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a >>topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to >>locate marine protected areas: >><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and >where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Liebermann, STOP talking when you're behind. Now you think that you know about transoceanic cables! Tell us all the last time they were giving Tours of shipwrecks. EVEN that Pearl Harbor memorial for the Arizona tour is only 20 minutes and you want us to think that they are running tours of ships clear out on the Continental Shelf! Not to mention deep ocean.Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and >where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>> would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers":
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3dunderwater%20markers&udm=3d2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3dgulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3dgulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3dfiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=3d10&udm=3d2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water):
<https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map:
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>> could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum
navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>> etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a
topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>> safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and
where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keepRoger, those charts are fairly easy to make since beyond the continental shelf, there is no detail. And only until you get close to shore do you know latitude and longitude. So oceanic charts show land masses in their proper spots and shallow water details and the oceans are blue on the charts. And precisely who cares? Transoceanic cables used to be necessary for intercontinental communications but now w have communications satellites and cables are falling into disrepair. Unless there is something to hit oceanic charts have no detail. And the transoceanic charts have land masses only accurate for latitude and longitude which are known from original navigational measurements and now GPS.
updating such charts, I?m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as
folks do cross and doesn?t take much imagination to understand that some people will absolutely find them useful.
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
On 3 Jul 2025 21:52:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:So you admit that everything you say is imaginary. Case closed.
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep >updating such charts, I?m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it >would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as >folks do cross and doesn?t take much imagination to understand that some >people will absolutely find them useful.
Apparently, it requires more imagination than is available in the
newsgroup. I guess I also qualify. When I was trying to list the applications that might benefit from under water topography and
monument maps, I couldn't recall very many mostly because I'm still
tired from the last 3 days of firewood stacking.
Also, a major reason for updating published maps is that error are
deemed sufficient justification for yet another lawsuit. Examples: <https://www.google.com/search?q=3dlawsuit%20inaccurate%20maps>
Even Google, which spends considerable time and effort keeping their
maps up to date was sued for what appears to be someone complaining
that Google does too good a job. Some people believe that being
successful considered monopoly building.
Do something badly and I get sues. Do the same thing better than
anyone else, and I still get sued.
"Google Wins Dismissal of Class Action Suit Over Mapping Products in California Federal Court" <https://www.pymnts.com/cpi-posts/google-wins-dismissal-of-class-action-suit-over-mapping-products-in-california-federal-court/>
"...dismissing a proposed class action lawsuit that alleged
restrictive practices in its digital-mapping products".
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
Most maps use government funded data. In the UK, government mapping
is a business. <https://businessleader.co.uk/content/article/602/Ordnance-Survey-CEO:-Ask-three-questions-before-proposing-a-new-business-idea>
"Ordnance Survey was founded in 1791 and specializes in making
detailed maps of Great Britain. It is owned by the government but
operates like a business. It recently reported annual revenues of more
than ?180m."
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they areI know you're trying to get the conversation back on track of something that matters but you'll get nothing but resistance from Flunky and Liebermann unfortyunately.
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 19:58:45 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:Now you're telling us that because you have no money you're buying ordinance maps? I guess you use them to measure your property lines.
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they are
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
I don't know anything about how UK handles it sale of taxpayer funded
data. Like in the US, there are independent data aggregators that
sell subscriptions. For example:
"OS Maps: Subscription" <https://www.togetherprice.com/uk/os-maps/os-maps-subscription/>
"An Ordnance Survey subscription starts at ?4.99 per month. Users can
also choose for an annual subscription which costs ?28.99 per year."
In the US, the current fad is to convert from SRTM (satellite radar topography mission) side looking radar topography to LIDAR (Light
Detection and Ranging) based aerial digital photography with greatly
improved resolution and accuracy. Much of the data was collected
using public money, which usually makes the data available for FOIA
(freedom of information act) data, which is either free or at the cost
of handling.
<https://www.usgs.gov/tools/lidarexplorer> <https://apps.nationalmap.gov/lidar-availability-viewer/> <https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/>
I'm trying to learn how to build and use GNSS (global navigation
satellite system) RTK (real time kinematics) which can produce
repeatability and accuracy down to the mm level. <https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all>
For example, Google (Trusted Partner) Street View 360 degree imaging,
on a bicycle, inside underground tunnels, using RTK. <https://www.ardusimple.com/collecting-imagery-in-pedestrian-tunnels-with-rtkins-simplertk2b-f9r/>
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:52:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is. Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
You seem to be suggesting that when speaking about something from my perspective I should also suggest that there are other perspectives. I
guess I just assume people will know that.
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not >interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but >that's where you're heading.
No, that's not ever where I'm headed.
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions?
Well, actually, I don't have any such expectations.
You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
Yes, indeed. There's many things mentioned here on RBT that I don't
address.
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
No, that's not what started this thread. You mentioned in:
This discussion started with references to using GPS for
transportation.
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3d129434&group=3drec.bicycles.tech#129434>
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be useless.
My main concern is your incorrect claim that "maps out on the ocean
would be useless". They might be useless to you, but as others and I
have demonstrated, there are large numbers of ocean maps which show >features not found on coastline or ocean surface maps. I find these
maps very interesting and sometimes useful. I would be quite happy if
you would simply admit that such maps might be useful to people who do
not limit themselves to using the oceans for highway transportation.
Ok, some people might find mapping the ocean bottom and establishing coordinates on the surface to be useful.
I'll point out that this discussion began with people addressing GPS
use for transportation, so I guess I erred in assuming that was the
issue.
To be on the safe side, I'll also admit that mapping the "stars" can
be useful, too.
Another point which has been repeatedly made to him, which he doesn'tTell us about your sailing trip around the world.
quite seem to understand.
Here's Krygowski, once again, posting about me. I'll bet he dreamsNo doubt wet dreams.
about me. Note that whereas Krygowski's obsession with me centers
and as usual you add nothing to the cnversation.Flunky, there are times that you have made actual contributions to a conversation but they are very rare and this is not one of them.
He adds evidence of his continuing obsession with me!So you;re talking about Catrike and you say he obsessed with you? Very smooth move.
Am 29.06.2025 um 14:45 schrieb Wolfgang Strobl:Of course that is the best means but on long trips I found that on a short 200 mile trip it required 5 maps to get enough detail to do the ride on a bicycle. On a 500 mile trip we looked at a statewide map and discovered we only needed a map of Los Angelos to get through that area and otherwise rode the entire distance on Highway 1. I don't think you can do that anymore.
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes, which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory, combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
I sometimes fail in the car when the road I want to turn into
unexpectedly turns out to be a small farm lane (on the bicycle, aligning expectations with reality usually is fast enough to not miss a turn).
Am 30.06.2025 um 17:16 schrieb Frank Krygowski:As it turned out, the traffic was such a pain on our 500 mile club ride to San Diego that I enjoyed the ride back by train a great deal more.
On 6/30/2025 9:41 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory,
combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route
turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
One of the benefits of riding with a bike club is that volunteer ride leaders take pains to show off nice roads, roads with beautiful views or items of interest. For me, the downside is having to use the car to get
to a distant starting point, plus seldom knowing exactly where I am
during the ride. Yes, I guess I could use gizmos to record those routes, but I just don't bother.
For me, one of the major advantages of these "gizmos" is that hiking
once a month with my (ex-)colleages since 2020, I have seen more
spectacluar scenery than in the 20 years before (having moved to
Heidelberg in 2001). <https://www.komoot.com/de-de/collection/2880228/-kollegenwanderungen>
In the first year, one retired "hiking guide of 20 years" showed us a
lot, but after that we've been sucessful in finding new amazing
destinations each month thanks to Komoot. I am now able to plan and
organize nice hikes in places I've never been to before.
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that latitude and longitude aren'tBelieve me, I'm trying very hard to be kind to Liebermann but he makes it impossible. Why is he talking nonsense about navigation and completely ignoring things that are important to his health and well being?
sigificant anywhere on the globe.
You didn't claim that. Nor did anyone else. I re-read the last fewJeff, you don't know anything about navigation and now what are you doing? You are saying that no one said what you claimed they said and then mke the reverse claim that it is important to people.
messages and can't find any mention by anyone that lat-long was insignificant. If it's important to you, please cut-n-paste the
relevent section where you read that lat-long is not significant and
I'll try to determine what happened.
On Fri, 4 Jul 2025 13:59:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:I noticed that you're so smart that you don't know you only need to measure one end.
On 7/4/2025 1:21 PM, cyclintom wrote:
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is.
It's called a TDR (time domain reflectometer). For long undersea
cables without repeaters, they run two TDR tests, one from each end of
the cable. The location of the break is calculated from the ratio of
the two measured time delays and the known end to end length. For
example, if the end to end length from New York to Scotland is 5,300
km, and the ratio of the two reflected signals was 2:7, the break is
at:
2 / 7 * 5,300 meters =3d 1,514 meters from the "2" end.
The reason it's done like this is because it removes all the errors
caused by changes in the cable velocity factor by changes in the speed
of propagation along the cable.
Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
Nope. If they pull on the cable near the shore, it will rip the cable
out of the "cable house" where the cable terminates. There has to be
some drag by the cable on the ocean bottom to prevent such destructive disassembly.
Transoceanic communications is radio links between satellites to the surface now and so cables are more or less unnecessary. As usual Liebermann know nothing about what he is talking about and is our Genius in charge of stupidity.
Tom. I'm not a genius, but I do know more than you do.
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Yep.
On 7/4/2025 6:42 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 7/3/2025 8:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested.
Proof of yet more imaginary tales from the dumbass. If he was everPerhaps you can tell us when you were ever a winner? Your responses always show why your boss doesn't give a flying fuck what you do. You're only there to sign off the paperwork.
really out sailing in the Caribbean (or sailing anywhere) he'd know
that nautical maps are practically a requirement.
gawd what a fucking loser....
On 7/1/2025 1:26 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:"Others"? Are you suggesting that Flunky is an authoritatve source? It must be pretty pitiful to have the only person that doesn't see you for what you are to be a low IQ idiot.
On 7/1/2025 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
floriduh dumbass wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years >>>> ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to
turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to >>>> the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned >>>> to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
It's called conversation, dumbass. If you don't want to participate,He can't stop. Maybe a some intense therapy could help? I don't know.
shut the fuck up. You're only re-enforcing your image of a pathetic
loser with an obsession for Frank.
That's not my field.
But as others have said, his obsession with me doesn't make him look good.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:49:00 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:59:42 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
John, you can use a sexton to measure the angles between two points and then simply calculate where those two lines cross. Or you can use a sexton to take a noon sight giving you a latitude and a sunrise to give you a longituderuse my sexton to measure distance off shore. That was nesessary for
I agree though the early GPS's could be off a mile of two and I would
large racing yachts that I was a navigator on.
as a 'sextant" measures angles it is kind of interesting how you used
it to measure distance