On 9/30/2025 11:22 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
In article <10beh6n$35nur$1@dont-email.me>, petertrei@gmail.com
(Cryptoengineer) wrote:
My college (King's College London) did have a ceremony, but it was
held the next fall, when I was already in the States.
Incidentally, my degree ceremony was held just after the end of term. I
can't remember when I had my final exam, but the ceremony was 20th July,
1973, two days before my 20th birthday. That was very young for getting
a degree.
Cool! I finished at Kings about a week after my 21st birthday.
In the US, that's still sounds impressive, but in Britain at the
time, you got your undergraduate degree in three years. You put
your major down on your application form, and studied little else.
None of this 'spend a year or two finding your joy' stuff you get
in the US, with its four year degrees.
Frankly, I'd have preferred the four year system.
In article <10bjijg$ekqc$2@dont-email.me>,
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/30/2025 11:22 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
In article <10beh6n$35nur$1@dont-email.me>, petertrei@gmail.com
(Cryptoengineer) wrote:
My college (King's College London) did have a ceremony, but it was
held the next fall, when I was already in the States.
Incidentally, my degree ceremony was held just after the end of term. I >>> can't remember when I had my final exam, but the ceremony was 20th July, >>> 1973, two days before my 20th birthday. That was very young for getting >>> a degree.
Cool! I finished at Kings about a week after my 21st birthday.
In the US, that's still sounds impressive, but in Britain at the
time, you got your undergraduate degree in three years. You put
your major down on your application form, and studied little else.
None of this 'spend a year or two finding your joy' stuff you get
in the US, with its four year degrees.
Frankly, I'd have preferred the four year system.
[Hal Heydt]
In the College of Engineering at UC Berkeley, your first two
years are all manner of different engineering courses (plus math,
physics and chemistry). It's after that that you specialize in
particular branch, EE, ME, IE, etc.
In article <10bee70$1vm$1@reader2.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. >Lynch) wrote:
My understanding is that colleges repeatedly beg their alumni for
donations. High schools don't.
Probably the same in the UK. Never heard anything from my secondary
school, but plenty from Leeds University.
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the >Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went to
a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the
Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went to
a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
MIT used to do a somewhat abbreviated version of the Great Books program,
but that kind of ended with WWII, I think.
In four years you can't really teach someone to be a good engineer, you
can only teach them the things they need to know in order to learn to be
a good engineer. There's not much time to teach them the things they need
to know to be a good person.
The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth
century into the last day.
On 10/1/25 2:58 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the
Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went to >>> a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
MIT used to do a somewhat abbreviated version of the Great Books program,
but that kind of ended with WWII, I think.
In four years you can't really teach someone to be a good engineer, you
can only teach them the things they need to know in order to learn to be
a good engineer. There's not much time to teach them the things they need >> to know to be a good person.
When I went to MIT, there was a humanities requirement, but it was
rather minimal. The freshman year there was something called "Conflict
and Community in America," which consisted of rather unfocused
discussions of recent books. After that I took mostly music courses when
I could. The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth >century into the last day.
On 10/1/25 2:58 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the
Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went to >> a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
MIT used to do a somewhat abbreviated version of the Great Books program, but that kind of ended with WWII, I think.
In four years you can't really teach someone to be a good engineer, you
can only teach them the things they need to know in order to learn to be
a good engineer. There's not much time to teach them the things they need to know to be a good person.
When I went to MIT, there was a humanities requirement, but it was
rather minimal. The freshman year there was something called "Conflict
and Community in America," which consisted of rather unfocused
discussions of recent books. After that I took mostly music courses when
I could. The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth century into the last day.
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went
to a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
[Hal Heydt]
In the College of Engineering at UC Berkeley, your first two
years are all manner of different engineering courses (plus math,
physics and chemistry). It's after that that you specialize in
particular branch, EE, ME, IE, etc.
When I went to MIT, there was a humanities requirement, but it was
rather minimal. The freshman year there was something called "Conflict
and Community in America," which consisted of rather unfocused
discussions of recent books. After that I took mostly music courses when
I could. The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth >century into the last day.
In article <10bjsai$h48j$1@dont-email.me>, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) wrote:
I am reminded of a friend who was explaining why he didn't know
something one would learn in a world history course (maybe about the
Protestant Reformation or something), and said it was because he went
to a trade school. When asked what school it was, he said, "MIT."
Now, that's the sort of thing you'd learn in secondary school in the UK. Ancient Egypt, Greece, Roman empire etc. Then a gap for the Dark Ages
and history really started with the Norman conquest. I don't remember
much of what was taught about the War of the Roses and the Civil Wars.
Then glories of the British Empire, the minor kerfuffle involving the American colonies. But because of my accelerated stream, we then jumped
to European history, 1870-1939.
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
When I went to MIT, there was a humanities requirement, but it was
rather minimal. The freshman year there was something called "Conflict
and Community in America," which consisted of rather unfocused
discussions of recent books. After that I took mostly music courses when
I could. The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth >>century into the last day.
Well, I like Purcell and Monteverdi myself but it didn't get crazy and
silly for quite some time after that. And what I like about opera is
mostly the craziness and silliness.
I don't remember much of what was taught about the War of the Roses
and the Civil Wars.
It's also odd that British people are honorored, not by naming thingsBaltimore, Melbourne and Wellington. Plus New York NY.
for them but for naming things for their *titles*. ObFandom: I've
been to Worldcons in cities named for Cecil Calvert, William Lamb,
and (virtual only) Arthur Wellesley. I've never been to any of the
Worldcons in the city named for King James II. Good luck trying to
figure out what cities I'm referring to.
On 10/2/2025 9:38 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
It's also odd that British people are honorored, not by naming thingsBaltimore, Melbourne and Wellington. Plus New York NY.
for them but for naming things for their *titles*.-a ObFandom:-a I've
been to Worldcons in cities named for Cecil Calvert, William Lamb,
and (virtual only) Arthur Wellesley.-a I've never been to any of the
Worldcons in the city named for King James II.-a Good luck trying to
figure out what cities I'm referring to.
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
And as I observed on another list just recently, when I was in
secondary school, girls took home economics their sophomore year, and
boys took shop.
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
I don't remember much of what was taught about the War of the Roses
and the Civil Wars.
I've long thought it odd that in a UK context, "Civil Wars" refers
only to the wars between the Cavaliers and the Rounheads, although
England has had many others, including the aforementioned War of the
Roses. And the so-called Anarchy (Stephen vs. Matilda). And the
time a bastard successfully invaded. And the Peasants' Revolt. And Peterloo. And Boudica vs. the Romans, though strictly speaking there
was no England then.
I also think it's odd that "Edwardian" refers only to the reign of
Edward VII, so called because his name was Albert and there had been
nine (!) previous kings named Edward. (The first three Edwards
weren't given numbers, but were called the Elder, the Martyr, and
the Confessor.)
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
When I went to MIT, there was a humanities requirement, but it was
rather minimal. The freshman year there was something called "Conflict
and Community in America," which consisted of rather unfocused
discussions of recent books. After that I took mostly music courses when
I could. The one-semester course on opera crammed the entire nineteenth
century into the last day.
Well, I like Purcell and Monteverdi myself but it didn't get crazy and
silly for quite some time after that. And what I like about opera is
mostly the craziness and silliness.
begin fnord
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
[De Bellico Rosis]
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
Doesn't help at all that everyone involved is named either Margaret,
Edward, Anne, Henry, Elizabeth, or Richard.
On 10/3/25 11:00 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
begin fnord
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
[De Bellico Rosis]
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
Doesn't help at all that everyone involved is named either Margaret,
Edward, Anne, Henry, Elizabeth, or Richard.
Excellent point! Now we know where the Pythons got the idea for the
Bruces sketch.
England/UK is also where one "Bertie" became King Edward VII, and
another King George VI, and David became King Edward III.
OTOH, French kings seemed to all be either Louis (eighteen or nineteen, >depending how you count them, plus one or two Louis Philippes) or
Charles (ten of them).
[Hal Heydt]
And there have been two reigning
queens, both named Margethe.
Another oddity is that the Regency, when George III was stripped of
his royal powers in favor of the later George IV, lasted only from
1811 to 1820, but the "regency period" is generally considered to
have lasted considerably longer on both sides.
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
Doesn't help at all that everyone involved is named either Margaret,
Edward, Anne, Henry, Elizabeth, or Richard.
In kollidge, my second semester of physics had a month of what was essentially shop.
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
It's difficult enough that I've never been tempted to also try to
memorize GRRM's fictional version of it. But I did enjoy his
_Tuf Voyaging_. That was actual science fiction, not fantasy.
Doesn't help at all that everyone involved is named either Margaret,
Edward, Anne, Henry, Elizabeth, or Richard.
It's worse than that. For nearly 400 years, from John's death in
1216 to James's accession in 1603, every English king, 16 in total,
was named Edward, Henry, or Richard.
On 10/3/25 3:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
But let's not get started on English (British) pronunciation, e.g. "St. John" is "sin-jin", and "Worchestershire" is "wus-ta-sheer".
Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
On 10/3/25 3:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
But let's not get started on English (British) pronunciation, e.g. "St. >John" is "sin-jin", and "Worchestershire" is "wus-ta-sheer".
Now it's Charles and now we're through.
begin fnord
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
Now it's Charles and now we're through.
A prediction?
In article <10bpchi$2364v$1@dont-email.me>,
Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/3/25 3:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
But let's not get started on English (British) pronunciation, e.g. "St.
John" is "sin-jin", and "Worchestershire" is "wus-ta-sheer".
[Hal Heydt]
Or the street address in "The Sorceror", as rendered by W. S.
Gilbert... 70 Simmery Ax.
when I was in secondary
school, girls took home economics their sophomore year, and boys took
shop
the sixth for,
On 10/3/25 11:00 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
begin-a fnord
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:
[De Bellico Rosis]
As I wrote in my review of Dan Jones's THE PLANTAGENETS:
"And there are so many defections and deceptions that keeping track
of who is on which side almost requires a scorecard..."
Doesn't help at all that everyone involved is named either Margaret,
Edward, Anne, Henry, Elizabeth, or Richard.
Excellent point! Now we know where the Pythons got the idea for the
Bruces sketch.
England/UK is also where one "Bertie" became King Edward VII, and
another King George VI, and David became King Edward III.
OTOH, French kings seemed to all be either Louis (eighteen or nineteen, depending how you count them, plus one or two Louis Philippes) or
Charles (ten of them).
In article <10bmoip$1868a$1@dont-email.me>,
evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) wrote:
when I was in secondary
school, girls took home economics their sophomore year, and boys took
shop
At my school in the sixties, it was domestic science for girls, woodwork
and metal work for boys, but in the sixth for, cookery and metal work was >taught to both.
On 10/3/25 3:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
On 10/3/25 4:43 PM, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
On 10/3/25 3:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "Georgian" probably isn't the right term anyway, or at least
we're not pronouncing it right, given that the first two Georges
were German, hence would have pronounced their names as "Gay-org."
But the English people probably all pronounced it the way we do.
The German name is spelled "Georg." His birth name was most likely
Georg, but if you spell it as in English, it should be pronounced as in >English.
If I saw "George" as a German name, I'd have to pronounce it "Gay-org-uh."
I think shop and home ec classes should both be required for everyone because they are skills that people just plain need in the modern
world.
My third high school had an auto shop class, and when I asked about
it I was told that college track students weren't allowed to take
that,
and that it was just for the most stupid kids. Now, a few decades
later,
my mechanic has retired and couldn't find anyone smart and skilled
willing
to take over his business.
[Hal Heydt]
Or, if you are taking German, there is that English playwrite... Shock-ess-pay-are-a.
I am reminded of the story told by Peter Maxwell Davies on being told
when he asked to do music at school, the headmaster said that it was not
a girls' school. (He went on to be the master of the Queen's music.)
In article <10brt6s$2m3um$1@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
The German name is spelled "Georg." His birth name was most likely
Georg, but if you spell it as in English, it should be pronounced as in
English.
If I saw "George" as a German name, I'd have to pronounce it "Gay-org-uh."
[Hal Heydt]
Or, if you are taking German, there is that English playwrite... Shock-ess-pay-are-a.
I've never heard of UK schools doing anything like auto shop. Nor the
idea of sport-orientated courses. I don't think driver ed is a thing
either. If you were still at school when old enough to drive, you'd be >studying for your A-levels.
On 10/4/25 11:06 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
In article <10brt6s$2m3um$1@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
The German name is spelled "Georg." His birth name was most likely[Hal Heydt]
Georg, but if you spell it as in English, it should be pronounced as in
English.
If I saw "George" as a German name, I'd have to pronounce it "Gay-org-uh." >>
Or, if you are taking German, there is that English playwrite...
Shock-ess-pay-are-a.
Shakespeare is popular in Germany, and they have good translations of
his work. "Sein oder nichtsein, das ist hier die Frage." They follow the >rule of pronouncing the name in the language in which it's written, or
at least giving it their best effort.
And, of course, Felix Mendelsohn was quite taken with Shakespeare,
writing an overture for "Midsummer Nights Dream" when he was 17.
[Hal Heydt]
Contrast California... For many years California required all
high school students to take Driver Ed. What triggered that
requirement was a EdD dissertation on comparative accident rates
between trained and untrained drivers. The author of the
disseration was Wallace A. Jones... Dorothy's father.
In article <t3oBCG.1JAA@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
[Hal Heydt]
Contrast California... For many years California required all
high school students to take Driver Ed. What triggered that
requirement was a EdD dissertation on comparative accident rates
between trained and untrained drivers. The author of the
disseration was Wallace A. Jones... Dorothy's father.
I read a news report a few years back that people were putting off
learning to drive until their mid-twenties. (The minimum age for having
a licence is, I believe, 17. I think I knew only one person at
university who owned a car (and it was an old banger). My father, who
never went to university, was in his thirties before learning, and that
was probably because we moved to the north-east where there was less
public transport available. My mother never learned. I certainly never needed a car living in London (and before my recent accident, walking
around Guildford was not a problem).
Conversely, of course, the minimum drinking age is lower here.
If fully autonomous cars are available, I can see *many* people
forgoing learning to drive by hand, just as few Americans
learn to use a manual transmission.
On 10/7/2025 9:26 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
If fully autonomous cars are available, I can see *many* people
forgoing learning to drive by hand, just as few Americans
learn to use a manual transmission.
One of my few objections to electric cars (as I understand, the motors
in EVs drive the wheels directly, with no need for a drive train or >transmission). I learned to drive, at both my and my father's
insistence, with a manual transmission, and have been driving one for
most* of my life since.
On 10/7/2025 9:26 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
If fully autonomous cars are available, I can see *many* people
forgoing learning to drive by hand, just as few Americans
learn to use a manual transmission.
One of my few objections to electric cars (as I understand, the motors
in EVs drive the wheels directly, with no need for a drive train or transmission).-a I learned to drive, at both my and my father's
insistence, with a manual transmission, and have been driving one for
most* of my life since.
* I've owned one automatic, and all IC rentals are automatic.
One of my few objections to electric cars (as I understand, the
motors in EVs drive the wheels directly, with no need for a drive
train or transmission). I learned to drive, at both my and my
father's insistence, with a manual transmission, and have been
driving one for most* of my life since.
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