• Flawed heros

    From Joy Beeson@jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid to rec.arts.sf.composition on Fri Aug 8 22:11:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition


    I'm catching up on Partricia's blog, and have gotten to

    https://pcwrede.com/pcw-wp/heroes-protagonists-and-viewpoint-characters-but-mostly-heroes/

    The "make your character complex by sprinkling flaws on like
    parsley" school of thought was mentioned, but barely thought
    worthy of discussion.

    A complex character will have flaws, but adding flaws won't
    make him complex.

    It's rather like those silly signs in restrooms telling
    children to sing "happy birthday" while washing their hands.
    Getting your hangs clean takes time, but taking time while
    holding your hands under the water won't get them clean.


    A parsley flaw can be comedic, but the only example I can
    think of is Indiana Jones and his snakes.
    --
    Joy Beeson
    joy beeson at centurylink dot net
    http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/




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  • From Mickmane@ATH@kruemel.org to rec.arts.sf.composition on Sat Aug 9 23:04:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition

    On 09.08.25, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

    Oh, activity here!

    I've been wondering about asking whether anyone's still here, because I
    would like to talk about one of my stories again. Been rereading and
    adding stuff - except I now have most read aloud by Microsoft Edge "Eric Online Natural", so much nicer than having to read it myself. While
    writing of course I still reread my own words. :)

    I'm catching up on Partricia's blog, and have gotten to

    https://pcwrede.com/pcw-wp/heroes-protagonists-and-viewpoint-characters-but-mostly-heroes/

    Reading that, too, some thoughts...

    Seems I don't have protagonists at all, just viewpoint characters (tight third), some main characters, others not so main. (Certainly no heroes!)

    I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
    code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just hardware,
    and upbringing adds the software.

    But some non-human species (thinking of one I made up here, of course)
    can all be born with the same basic rules of what's right, and what
    things no one would ever think of doing.

    The "make your character complex by sprinkling flaws on like
    parsley" school of thought was mentioned, but barely thought
    worthy of discussion.

    A complex character will have flaws, but adding flaws won't
    make him complex.

    It's rather like those silly signs in restrooms telling
    children to sing "happy birthday" while washing their hands.
    Getting your hangs clean takes time, but taking time while
    holding your hands under the water won't get them clean.

    Seems we agree completely!

    It's just that my characters come as they are written, and I don't like
    the word 'flaw'. Would you call someone who's good at playing the
    guitar, but terrible at hammering a nail into the wall "flawed"?
    Characters are good at some things, and not so good at others, and the
    decent characters know what they're not good at, and try their best
    anyway. They _think_.

    Only trauma is an excuse for temporarily not thinking straight, and not
    even trying to. (In my never humble opinion.)

    I don't think most of the traits listed as possible flaws are flaws at
    all, they are character traits. All part of what gives a character,
    well, _character_ (as opposed to being cardboard).

    (I could ramble on about insecurity, versus just finding themselves in a strange situation and trying to figure out how to act now. The latter
    isn't insecurity.)

    I think the only character I have who's lazy is one of my evil
    overlords. :)

    A parsley flaw can be comedic, but the only example I can
    think of is Indiana Jones and his snakes.

    Hm, maybe it's not even parsley! :)
    --

    Mickmane - not new here, but using my online nickname now, rather than
    one you might remember.

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  • From djheydt@djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) to rec.arts.sf.composition on Sat Aug 9 22:10:29 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition

    In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:
    On 09.08.25, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
    I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
    code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just hardware, >and upbringing adds the software.

    [Hal Heydt]
    I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
    aare also born with some firmware. One could argue about the
    degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
    overridden--by accumulations of software. (One also needs to be
    careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)
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  • From Mickmane@ATH@kruemel.org to rec.arts.sf.composition on Sun Aug 10 09:38:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition

    On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
    In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:

    I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
    code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just
    hardware, and upbringing adds the software.

    [Hal Heydt]

    Would be better if that were seen in the address/name.

    I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
    aare also born with some firmware. One could argue about the
    degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
    overridden--by accumulations of software. (One also needs to be
    careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)

    That's what I call hardware.

    Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU, 4MB
    to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had a 286
    board with 386 CPU. :) )

    As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

    Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks
    where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).
    --

    Mickmane

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  • From djheydt@djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) to rec.arts.sf.composition on Sun Aug 10 19:06:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition

    In article <H6c3l6vqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:
    On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
    In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:

    I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
    code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just
    hardware, and upbringing adds the software.

    [Hal Heydt]

    Would be better if that were seen in the address/name.

    I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
    aare also born with some firmware. One could argue about the
    degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
    overridden--by accumulations of software. (One also needs to be
    careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)

    That's what I call hardware.

    Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU, 4MB
    to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had a 286
    board with 386 CPU. :) )

    As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

    [Hal Heydt]
    A BIOS is firmware, but there are other forms of firmware. You've
    limited your list to one particular line of processor chips.
    There are, and have been many others. One that is sold at a rate
    many times the x86 chips these days are ARM processors.

    Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks
    where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).

    What you've listed are operating systems, and your list if far
    from complete. OSes are, indeed software, but so are
    applications programs.

    However, not all hardware requires an OS to operate. There is,
    for instance, a microcontroller (aka MCU) doesn't noramally run
    with an OS at all. You probably have a considerable number of
    MCUs in your house. Start with your washing machine and go on
    from there. Pretty much anything you have that has a control
    interface is likely to contain an MCU. They're sold by the
    billions every year. (PC sales are on the order of 100 million
    per year. "Smart" phone and tablet--most using ARM chips--sales
    are on the order of 1 billion per year. MCUs...much more than
    that.)
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  • From Mickmane@ATH@kruemel.org to rec.arts.sf.composition on Sun Aug 10 22:35:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.composition

    On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
    In article <H6c3l6vqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:

    [Humans born as blank slate with just hardware, upbringing adds
    software]

    Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU,
    4MB to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had
    a 286 board with 386 CPU. :) )

    As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

    [Hal Heydt]

    Put that into the address somewhere.

    A BIOS is firmware, but there are other forms of firmware. You've
    limited your list to one particular line of processor chips.
    There are, and have been many others. One that is sold at a rate
    many times the x86 chips these days are ARM processors.

    I didn't limit anything. It's examples.

    Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks
    where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).

    What you've listed are operating systems, and your list if far
    from complete. OSes are, indeed software, but so are
    applications programs.

    And I forgot OS/2, too.

    Doesn't matter. It's examples, not a complete list. Do you just want to argue?

    So you don't like my analogy. For me it works.
    --

    Mickmane

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