• Free books

    From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books on Fri Jul 4 11:49:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    In July 2025 I'm offering all my published fiction books FREE in the
    Smashwords Summer/Winter sale.

    The books are:

    1. The Enchanted Grove <https://www.smashwords.com/books/1072405>
    2. Cross Purposes <https://www.smashwords.com/books/1167919>
    3. The Year of the Dragon <https://www.smashwords.com/books/907935>

    The first two are intended primarily for children aged 9-12, but they
    are the kind of children's books some adults also enjoy (eg "The
    Hobbit").

    They are basically adventure stories with some fantasy elements.

    If you've read one of my books and weren't completely repelled by it,
    here's a chance to try one of the others.

    Or, if you're read one or more of them and thought someone you know
    might enjoy reading them, please tell them about this.

    This offer applies only to the ebook editions of my novels published
    by Smashwords/Draft2Digital, and does not apply to the paperback or
    Kindle direct editions (if you have a Kindle, you can get a Smashwords
    version in Kindle format).
    --
    Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
    Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
    Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk or if you use Gmail hayesstw@telkomsa.net
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Thu Jul 31 06:33:54 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 11:49:59 +0200, Steve Hayes
    <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    In July 2025 I'm offering all my published fiction books FREE in the >Smashwords Summer/Winter sale.

    Today is the last day of the Smashwords sale -- tomorrow these and
    other books on the sale revert to being full price.

    The books are:

    1. The Enchanted Grove <https://www.smashwords.com/books/1072405>
    2. Cross Purposes <https://www.smashwords.com/books/1167919>
    3. The Year of the Dragon <https://www.smashwords.com/books/907935>

    The first two are intended primarily for children aged 9-12, but they
    are the kind of children's books some adults also enjoy (eg "The
    Hobbit").

    They are basically adventure stories with some fantasy elements.

    If you've read one of my books and weren't completely repelled by it,
    here's a chance to try one of the others.

    Or, if you're read one or more of them and thought someone you know
    might enjoy reading them, please tell them about this.

    If you did take one and read it, please let me know what you thought
    of it, what you liked or didn't like about it. Better still, post a
    review either on the Smashwords site for the book, or at GoodReads, or
    both. If these books get enough ratings or reviews on GoodReads they
    appear in a list of "People who liked this book also liked..." which
    would suggest that I might like them too.

    This offer applies only to the ebook editions of my novels published
    by Smashwords/Draft2Digital, and does not apply to the paperback or
    Kindle direct editions (if you have a Kindle, you can get a Smashwords >version in Kindle format).
    --
    Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
    Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
    Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk or if you use Gmail hayesstw@telkomsa.net
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Thu Jul 31 12:41:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
    [books]

    Still no joy. by going to the generic site and searching
    I can see the covers, and your author portrait.
    (and realising you must be Stephen)

    Clicking on the book produces the out of range error I mentioned,

    Jan


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Thu Jul 31 17:15:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Le 31/07/2025 |a 11:41, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    Steve Hayes wrote:
    [books]

    Still no joy. by going to the generic site and searching
    I can see the covers, and your author portrait.
    (and realising you must be Stephen)

    Clicking on the book produces the out of range error I mentioned,

    Jan

    Still works fine for me in the UK.

    However, if I try using the Opera browser's built-in VPN, set to
    'Europe' (Google then thinks I'm in the Netherlands), I receive a "403 Forbidden" error.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Fri Aug 1 06:08:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 17:15:28 +0100, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Clicking on the book produces the out of range error I mentioned,

    Jan

    Still works fine for me in the UK.

    However, if I try using the Opera browser's built-in VPN, set to
    'Europe' (Google then thinks I'm in the Netherlands), I receive a "403 >Forbidden" error.

    Strange. I'll see if I can find a way to communicate with their
    webmaster.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sat Aug 2 06:00:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On Fri, 01 Aug 2025 06:08:50 +0200, Steve Hayes
    <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 17:15:28 +0100, Hibou ><vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Clicking on the book produces the out of range error I mentioned,

    Jan

    Still works fine for me in the UK.

    However, if I try using the Opera browser's built-in VPN, set to
    'Europe' (Google then thinks I'm in the Netherlands), I receive a "403 >>Forbidden" error.

    Strange. I'll see if I can find a way to communicate with their
    webmaster.

    And the reply was:

    1) Readers having problems accessing the website should contact us
    directly, as we can better assist them. 403 errors are typically
    temporary, but can also indicate IP address-related issues or similar.

    If anyone who had difficulty in accessing the pages feels like taking
    it up, the address is:

    Matt T. <dev-talk@smashwords.com>
    --
    Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
    Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
    Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk or if you use Gmail hayesstw@telkomsa.net
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sat Aug 2 13:03:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 01 Aug 2025 06:08:50 +0200, Steve Hayes
    <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 17:15:28 +0100, Hibou ><vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Clicking on the book produces the out of range error I mentioned,

    Jan

    Still works fine for me in the UK.

    However, if I try using the Opera browser's built-in VPN, set to >>'Europe' (Google then thinks I'm in the Netherlands), I receive a "403 >>Forbidden" error.

    Strange. I'll see if I can find a way to communicate with their
    webmaster.

    And the reply was:

    1) Readers having problems accessing the website should contact us
    directly, as we can better assist them. 403 errors are typically
    temporary, but can also indicate IP address-related issues or similar.

    If anyone who had difficulty in accessing the pages feels like taking
    it up, the address is:

    Matt T. <dev-talk@smashwords.com>

    They have fixed their site in the meantime.
    (probably as a result of your querry)
    The refs. from your original posting of a month ago
    are now clickable, [1]

    Jan

    [1] The site says I can download the first 20% for trial,
    but since they demand the creation of an account with them for that
    I'm not going to try if it works.
    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sat Aug 2 17:57:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:03:05 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    If anyone who had difficulty in accessing the pages feels like taking
    it up, the address is:

    Matt T. <dev-talk@smashwords.com>

    They have fixed their site in the meantime.
    (probably as a result of your querry)
    The refs. from your original posting of a month ago
    are now clickable, [1]

    Thanks for letting me know -- I've passed it on to them.


    Jan

    [1] The site says I can download the first 20% for trial,
    but since they demand the creation of an account with them for that
    I'm not going to try if it works.
    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    That's about right.

    People who don't specify such things somtimes are subjected to
    criticism from American readers who complain about books being full of
    spelling errors, and sometimes punctuation errors as well.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sat Aug 2 22:09:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 02/08/2025 16:57, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:03:05 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    If anyone who had difficulty in accessing the pages feels like taking
    it up, the address is:

    Matt T. <dev-talk@smashwords.com>

    They have fixed their site in the meantime.
    (probably as a result of your querry)
    The refs. from your original posting of a month ago
    are now clickable, [1]

    Thanks for letting me know -- I've passed it on to them.


    Jan

    [1] The site says I can download the first 20% for trial,
    but since they demand the creation of an account with them for that
    I'm not going to try if it works.
    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    That's about right.

    People who don't specify such things somtimes are subjected to
    criticism from American readers who complain about books being full of spelling errors, and sometimes punctuation errors as well.

    I'm told that even if you do make that clear, you will still still be castigated - since there is 'obviously' only one correct spelling of
    "colour" etc.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 11:29:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 03/08/25 01:57, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:03:05 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    That's about right.

    People who don't specify such things somtimes are subjected to
    criticism from American readers who complain about books being full
    of spelling errors, and sometimes punctuation errors as well.

    I've been surprised by the number of people who don't know that there
    are different dialects of English. I'm exposed regularly to different
    dialects on the TV news, so surely it should be hard to miss.

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sat Aug 2 23:13:29 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 8/2/2025 7:29 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 03/08/25 01:57, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:03:05 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    That's about right.

    People who don't specify such things somtimes are subjected to
    criticism from American readers who complain about books being full
    of spelling errors, and sometimes punctuation errors as well.

    I've been surprised by the number of people who don't know that there
    are different dialects of English. I'm exposed regularly to different dialects on the TV news, so surely it should be hard to miss.

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.
    I think it was GBS who said "England, the US, two great nations
    separated by a common language."* As you show above, this quote never
    gets old; the world just keeps finding new pairs to comment on.

    * Oscar Wilde espoused the similar "We have really everything in common
    with America nowadays, except, of course, language".
    --
    Jeff Barnett
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 06:40:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Le 03/08/2025 |a 06:13, Jeff Barnett a |-crit :
    On 8/2/2025 7:29 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 03/08/25 01:57, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:03:05 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
    Lodder) wrote:

    BTW, they say you write English (South African dialect)

    That's about right.

    People who don't specify such things somtimes are subjected to
    criticism from American readers who complain about books being full
    of spelling errors, and sometimes punctuation errors as well.

    I've been surprised by the number of people who don't know that there
    are different dialects of English. I'm exposed regularly to different
    dialects on the TV news, so surely it should be hard to miss.

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    I think it was GBS who said "England, the US, two great nations
    separated by a common language."* As you show above, this quote never
    gets old; the world just keeps finding new pairs to comment on.

    * Oscar Wilde espoused the similar "We have really everything in common
    with America nowadays, except, of course, language".

    It seems to me that AmE and BrE can converge in formal writing, to the
    point where, if no different spellings crop up, one can be unsure which
    side of the Pond a passage comes from. In everyday speech, on the other
    hand, there's hardly anything that we express the same way.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 07:01:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.
    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and that's
    also my preference, because of their extra weight on the page), whereas
    single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and
    Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !) In
    BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is not
    the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. - and to
    avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    That's all that comes to mind for the moment.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 08:34:46 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Den 03.08.2025 kl. 07.13 skrev Jeff Barnett:

    I think it was GBS who said "England, the US, two great nations
    separated by a common language."* As you show above, this quote never
    gets old; the world just keeps finding new pairs to comment on.

    * Oscar Wilde espoused the similar "We have really everything in common
    with America nowadays, except, of course, language".

    That was also John Cleese's first point when asked about the difference between the UK and USA.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 07:42:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences
    between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference
    in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    Likewise.

    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and
    that's also my preference, because of their extra weight on the
    page), whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    ``It's usual for me to use double inverted commas, because when I
    quote speech `I don't trust single quotes to be strong enough to
    hold the doubles in place', but the doubles have got the singles
    nailed.''

    That's an example of where the comma belongs outside the qutation
    marks because it's not part of the quotation. The full stop,
    however, /is/ part of the quoted sentence and is therefore
    brought into the fold.


    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as
    Dr. and Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique
    avant tout !) In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of
    the abbreviation is not the last letter of the word - etc., Feb.,
    Rev., but Mr not Mr. - and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of
    the infamous coy. commander.

    I was taught 40 years ago not to punctuate abbreviations, at
    least not in business correspondence. It seemed like weird advice
    at the time, but it has stood up to 40 years' hard use and has
    worn well.

    Maybe what is usual in BrE isn't quite as usual as you thought.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Aidan Kehoe@kehoea@parhasard.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 08:08:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens


    Ar an tri|| l|i de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Richard Heathfield:

    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    [...] The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !) In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is not the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. - and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    I was taught 40 years ago not to punctuate abbreviations, at least not in business correspondence. It seemed like weird advice at the time, but it has stood up to 40 years' hard use and has worn well.

    Maybe what is usual in BrE isn't quite as usual as you thought.

    My observation or working understanding is that punctuated abbreviations (particulary things like N.A.T.O.) are slowly dying on both sides of the Atlantic.
    --
    rCyAs I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stoutrCO
    (C. Moore)
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 08:19:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Le 03/08/2025 |a 07:42, Richard Heathfield a |-crit :
    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:

    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and
    Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !)
    In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is
    not the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. -
    and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    I was taught 40 years ago not to punctuate abbreviations, at least not
    in business correspondence. It seemed like weird advice at the time, but
    it has stood up to 40 years' hard use and has worn well.

    Maybe what is usual in BrE isn't quite as usual as you thought.

    That's possible, and certainly full stops can seem fussy (and I would
    not use them) in such abbreviations as GEC (the company, not Conan
    Doyle's hero), BMW, IBM, and AT&T - or indeed, AI (aircraft
    interception), RF, QED, AC, ADSL, AM, EPROM, etc..

    The advice I quoted comes from Carey's 'Mind the Stop' (Penguin, 1971).
    The main concern is to remove ambiguity, and after that to be consistent.

    That's all that comes to mind for the moment.


    After writing that, I went through to breakfast, to be faced by an American-style time display on the DAB radio: "07:05". "07.05" in BrE,
    though so pervasive is American influence that many Britons know it not.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 10:23:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    Den 03.08.2025 kl. 09.19 skrev Hibou:

    After writing that, I went through to breakfast, to be faced by an American-style time display on the DAB radio: "07:05". "07.05" in BrE, though so pervasive is American influence that many Britons know it not.

    I don't know if there is a Danish style, but I find that the colon is a
    better separator and doesn't look like a decimal point, so I prefer and
    use the American style.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From charles@charles@candehope.me.uk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 09:00:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    In article <mf8c95Fhb1mU2@mid.individual.net>,
    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 a 02:29, Peter Moylan a ocrit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.
    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and that's
    also my preference, because of their extra weight on the page), whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and
    Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !) In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is not
    the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. - and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    Th UK used to use a full stop after abbreviations; that's what I learned at school (1950). We've become more casual
    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4to#
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 17:39:23 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On Sun, 3 Aug 2025 07:01:09 +0100, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.
    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and that's
    also my preference, because of their extra weight on the page), whereas >single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    That is my preference too, and it was also they way I was taught to
    write at school (in South Africa). I never noticed, until it was
    pointed out, when I was in my 40s, that most UK publishers used single
    inverted commas.

    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and
    Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !) In >BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is not
    the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. - and to >avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    Again, that is my usage and preference.

    Also, initialisms in upper case (BBC), and acronyms in mixed case
    (Nato).


    That's all that comes to mind for the moment.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From lar3ryca@larry@invalid.ca to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Sun Aug 3 22:23:58 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 2025-08-03 00:42, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    Likewise.

    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and that's
    also my preference, because of their extra weight on the page),
    whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    ``It's usual for me to use double inverted commas, because when I quote speech `I don't trust single quotes to be strong enough to hold the
    doubles in place', but the doubles have got the singles nailed.''

    I'm intrigued by your 'double inverted commas' for two reasons.

    1. In the example above, you have two characters at the beginning of the sentence and two at the end, in mirror image. Are those what you call
    'double inverted commas', and is that the normal usage in published literature?

    1. In Canada, a quotation mark is not called inverted commas, and in
    fact, the are more like a single character with commas not inverted but
    just raised to the top of the character space, and in published works,
    one of that character is mirrored horizontally.

    That's an example of where the comma belongs outside the qutation marks because it's not part of the quotation. The full stop, however, /is/
    part of the quoted sentence and is therefore brought into the fold.


    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr. and
    Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant tout !)
    In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the abbreviation is
    not the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev., but Mr not Mr. -
    and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the infamous coy. commander.

    I was taught 40 years ago not to punctuate abbreviations, at least not
    in business correspondence. It seemed like weird advice at the time, but
    it has stood up to 40 years' hard use and has worn well.

    Maybe what is usual in BrE isn't quite as usual as you thought.

    --
    Sent from something that isn't from Apple.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Chris Elvidge@chris@internal.net to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Mon Aug 4 07:13:44 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 04/08/2025 at 05:23, lar3ryca wrote:
    On 2025-08-03 00:42, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in rules >>>> is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    Likewise.

    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and
    that's also my preference, because of their extra weight on the
    page), whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    ``It's usual for me to use double inverted commas, because when I
    quote speech `I don't trust single quotes to be strong enough to hold
    the doubles in place', but the doubles have got the singles nailed.''

    I'm intrigued by your 'double inverted commas' for two reasons.

    IMHO the two characters at the beginning of the above paragraph are
    backquotes and the two at the end are single quotes.

    WIWAL in primary school (4-11) and being taught to write English, what
    are now called double-quotes were called speech-marks (or 66/99 (after
    their look when written - see U201C/U201D) and/or inverted commas).
    Single quotes were apostrophes, or used to quote a passage inside double quotes.

    I will continue to use double quotes for speech and direct quotations
    whatever the modern system is.


    1. In the example above, you have two characters at the beginning of the sentence and two at the end, in mirror image. Are those what you call 'double inverted commas', and is that the normal usage in published literature?

    1. In Canada, a quotation mark is not called inverted commas, and in
    fact, the are more like a single character with commas not inverted but
    just raised to the top of the character space, and in published works,
    one of that character is mirrored horizontally.

    That's an example of where the comma belongs outside the qutation
    marks because it's not part of the quotation. The full stop, however,
    /is/ part of the quoted sentence and is therefore brought into the fold.


    The Americans also use a full stop after abbreviations such as Dr.
    and Mr.. (That double full stop is a Hibouisme - la logique avant
    tout !) In BrE, a full stop is used if the last letter of the
    abbreviation is not the last letter of the word - etc., Feb., Rev.,
    but Mr not Mr. - and to avoid ambiguity - to the relief of the
    infamous coy. commander.

    I was taught 40 years ago not to punctuate abbreviations, at least not
    in business correspondence. It seemed like weird advice at the time,
    but it has stood up to 40 years' hard use and has worn well.

    Maybe what is usual in BrE isn't quite as usual as you thought.


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT DO THE DIRTY BIRD
    Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode AABF08

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Mon Aug 4 15:21:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 04/08/2025 05:23, lar3ryca wrote:
    On 2025-08-03 00:42, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences
    between
    AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the
    difference in rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    Likewise.

    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech
    (and that's also my preference, because of their extra weight
    on the page), whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    ``It's usual for me to use double inverted commas, because when
    I quote speech `I don't trust single quotes to be strong enough
    to hold the doubles in place', but the doubles have got the
    singles nailed.''

    I'm intrigued by your 'double inverted commas' for two reasons.

    1. In the example above, you have two characters at the beginning
    of the sentence and two at the end, in mirror image. Are those
    what you call 'double inverted commas', and is that the normal
    usage in published literature?

    LaTeX turns `` into 66 quotes and '' into 99 quotes.

    In the books I read as a child, 66 and 99 were the norm, with 6
    and 9 being pressed into service for nesting where required..

    At some point, the world seems to have switched to 6 and 9 on the
    outside and 66 and 99 on the inside, but I never got the memo.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Tue Aug 5 08:11:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 05/08/25 00:21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 04/08/2025 05:23, lar3ryca wrote:
    On 2025-08-03 00:42, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 03/08/2025 07:01, Hibou wrote:
    Le 03/08/2025 |a 02:29, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    I have vaguely noticed that there are punctuation differences between >>>>> AusE and AmE, but have never seen a place where the difference in
    rules
    is explained. The only one that really sticks out for me is the
    illogical placement of commas and periods on the wrong side of a
    quotation mark.

    Likewise.

    It's usual in AmE to use double inverted commas for speech (and
    that's also my preference, because of their extra weight on the
    page), whereas single inverted commas are usual in BrE.

    ``It's usual for me to use double inverted commas, because when I
    quote speech `I don't trust single quotes to be strong enough to hold
    the doubles in place', but the doubles have got the singles nailed.''

    I'm intrigued by your 'double inverted commas' for two reasons.

    1. In the example above, you have two characters at the beginning of
    the sentence and two at the end, in mirror image. Are those what you
    call 'double inverted commas', and is that the normal usage in
    published literature?

    LaTeX turns `` into 66 quotes and '' into 99 quotes.

    In the books I read as a child, 66 and 99 were the norm, with 6 and 9
    being pressed into service for nesting where required..

    At some point, the world seems to have switched to 6 and 9 on the
    outside and 66 and 99 on the inside, but I never got the memo.

    Not the whole world. That switch seems to have happened only in books published in the UK.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to rec.arts.books.childrens,rec.arts.books,alt.books,alt.usage.english on Tue Aug 5 01:07:54 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.childrens

    On 04/08/2025 23:11, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 05/08/25 00:21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    <snip>
    In the books I read as a child, 66 and 99 were the norm,
    with 6 and 9 being pressed into service for nesting where
    required..

    At some point, the world seems to have switched to 6 and 9
    on the outside and 66 and 99 on the inside, but I never got
    the memo.

    Not the whole world. That switch seems to have happened only in
    books published in the UK.

    Then I am saddened by the UK's uncharacteristic dumping of
    tradition but delighted by the preservation of the proper use of
    66 and 99 quotes elsewhere in the world, although presumably in
    New South Wales you use rCf99 +Eup 66 dno-c|YsrCY?
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2