| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 26 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 56:14:16 |
| Calls: | 632 |
| Files: | 1,187 |
| D/L today: |
27 files (19,977K bytes) |
| Messages: | 179,568 |
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it.-a There are too many goodies >>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else.-a The fanboy in me has
reemerged.-a I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best >>> for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a "third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
On 10/15/2025 2:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it.-a There are too many goodies >>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else.-a The fanboy in me has
reemerged.-a I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers
can't
keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution
is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and
Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a
"third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
-a-a-a M4 Mac Mini-a $799
-a-a-a 10-Core CPU
-a-a-a 10-Core GPU
-a-a-a 16GB Unified Memory
-a-a-a 256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Look at "GMKtec Mini PC Intel N97 (Turbo 3.60GHz) Micro Desktop Computer 12GB DDR5 256GB SSD for Business, School, Office, Pocket Mini Computers Nucbox G5" on the Amazon web site. I bought one for under $140 US - the prices bounce around daily. It is a 4 core computer that has two HDMI outputs that will work with two 4K monitors. It runs at up to 3.6GHZ,
has 12GB memory and a 256GB SSD plus a few USB 3 ports and 1Gb/s
ethernet. It is fit into an approximate 2.5x2.5x1" package and comes preloaded with Win 11 PRO and no extra ads. I use mine with an external
SSD in caddy as a backup server for my LAN computers. No need to spend
$800. I've had it for a month or two and set it up to not sleep. I have
had zero problems with it to date.
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>wrote:
On 10/15/2025 5:12 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and >>>>>> foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it.-a There are too many goodies >>>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else.-a The fanboy in me has >>>>>> reemerged.-a I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers >>>>>> can't
keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution >>>>> is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and
Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a
"third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
-a-a-a M4 Mac Mini-a $799
-a-a-a 10-Core CPU
-a-a-a 10-Core GPU
-a-a-a 16GB Unified Memory
-a-a-a 256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Look at "GMKtec Mini PC Intel N97 (Turbo 3.60GHz) Micro Desktop Computer
12GB DDR5 256GB SSD for Business, School, Office, Pocket Mini Computers
Nucbox G5" on the Amazon web site. I bought one for under $140 US - the
prices bounce around daily. It is a 4 core computer that has two HDMI
outputs that will work with two 4K monitors. It runs at up to 3.6GHZ,
has 12GB memory and a 256GB SSD plus a few USB 3 ports and 1Gb/s
ethernet. It is fit into an approximate 2.5x2.5x1" package and comes
preloaded with Win 11 PRO and no extra ads. I use mine with an external
SSD in caddy as a backup server for my LAN computers. No need to spend
$800. I've had it for a month or two and set it up to not sleep. I have
had zero problems with it to date.
I'm loving my mini PC, it does everything I need and it's so simple, the
big box is obsolete. No more screwing in parts, painstaking assembly,
this is the new way to compute for sure, and you get Win11 Pro cheap to >boot.
On 10/15/2025 5:12 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and >>>>>> foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has >>>>>> reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers
can't
keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution
is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and
Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a
"third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Look at "GMKtec Mini PC Intel N97 (Turbo 3.60GHz) Micro Desktop Computer
12GB DDR5 256GB SSD for Business, School, Office, Pocket Mini Computers
Nucbox G5" on the Amazon web site. I bought one for under $140 US - the
prices bounce around daily. It is a 4 core computer that has two HDMI
outputs that will work with two 4K monitors. It runs at up to 3.6GHZ,
has 12GB memory and a 256GB SSD plus a few USB 3 ports and 1Gb/s
ethernet. It is fit into an approximate 2.5x2.5x1" package and comes
preloaded with Win 11 PRO and no extra ads. I use mine with an external
SSD in caddy as a backup server for my LAN computers. No need to spend
$800. I've had it for a month or two and set it up to not sleep. I have
had zero problems with it to date.
I'm loving my mini PC, it does everything I need and it's so simple, the
big box is obsolete. No more screwing in parts, painstaking assembly,
this is the new way to compute for sure, and you get Win11 Pro cheap to
boot.
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has
reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and Linux are >>> superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a "third party" as it
were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
I'm loving my mini PC, it does everything I need and it's so simple, the
big box is obsolete. No more screwing in parts, painstaking assembly,
this is the new way to compute for sure, and you get Win11 Pro cheap to
boot.
Only "new" to you. Mac minis have been available for 20 years. Mini PCs came along after companies saw how well Mac minis were selling.
On Oct 15, 2025 at 4:54:00rC>AM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump"" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and Linux are >>>> superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a "third party" as it
were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
To you. Prices are relative. To me, that is cheap for such a high level of performance.
On Oct 15, 2025 at 4:54:00rC>AM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump""
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again,
and foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too
many goodies in Win11 to think about using anything else. The
fanboy in me has reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for
people whose computers can't keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one
solution is best for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and
Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's
a "third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that
is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
To you. Prices are relative. To me, that is cheap for such a high
level of performance.
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has
reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and Linux are >>> superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's a "third party" as it
were (for people who can afford it, that is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
At Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:31:32 +0000, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 4:54:00rC>AM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump""
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 10/15/2025 2:09 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again,
and foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too
many goodies in Win11 to think about using anything else. The
fanboy in me has reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for
people whose computers can't keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one
solution is best for everyone. Best luck with it.
Macs are alright for some people, sure, I do believe Windows and
Linux are superior platforms overall, but it's good that there's
a "third party" as it were (for people who can afford it, that
is).
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
To you. Prices are relative. To me, that is cheap for such a high
level of performance.
It helps to not think of it as a "mid-range desktop", but a
"cut-rate Unix workstation".
We went up a level for our Apple needs, buying a Mac Studio instead
of a Mac Mini. The Mac Mini's we'd bought in the past were anemic,
with 5400RPM spinners and 4GB of RAM -- which wasn't enough for
MacOS.
I added more SODIMMs to bring them up to 16GB, which helped...
but unless things have changed, I wouldn't recommend a Mac Mini based
on past experience. It's notebook hardware at egregious prices.
The Mac Studio is a mid-range Unix workstation, and much more pleasant--
to work with...
Linux workstations blow the doors off all that, of course...I have
a System76 Thelio Mega v1.1, which sports a RTX 3090Ti:
Device 0: "NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Ti"
CUDA Driver Version / Runtime Version 13.0 / 12.5
CUDA Capability Major/Minor version number: 8.6
Total amount of global memory: 24109 MBytes (25280380928 bytes)
(84) Multiprocessors, (128) CUDA Cores/MP: 10752 CUDA Cores
What does the Mac Mini have, again?
On Oct 15, 2025 at 1:54:00rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <JiJHQ.500368$7Ika.278929@fx17.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
Not that AI is perfect (FAR! from it), but I ran it through ChatGPT out of curiosity:
https://chatgpt.com/share/68efbfad-6b70-800c-8554-efdecb711fec
I would say that is a relatively fair assessment. The summary:
-----
Bottom line
* The Mac/M4 combo is very compelling for what it gives in a compact package, especially in the Apple ecosystem.
* But $799 in the PC world can often stretch further in terms of raw hardware (GPU, upgradeability) if yourCOre okay with more complexity.
* If you tell me which tasks you care about (e.g. video editing, 3D, gaming, software dev), I can suggest a PC that outperforms that Mac spec at ~$799 rCo so
you can see exactly how good a name-brand PC comparison would be. Want me to do that?
On 10/15/2025 11:40 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 1:54:00rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<JiJHQ.500368$7Ika.278929@fx17.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
-a-a-a-a M4 Mac Mini-a $799
-a-a-a-a 10-Core CPU
-a-a-a-a 10-Core GPU
-a-a-a-a 16GB Unified Memory
-a-a-a-a 256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
Not that AI is perfect (FAR! from it), but I ran it through ChatGPT
out of
curiosity:
https://chatgpt.com/share/68efbfad-6b70-800c-8554-efdecb711fec
I would say that is a relatively fair assessment. The summary:
-----
Bottom line
* The Mac/M4 combo is very compelling for what it gives in a compact
package,
especially in the Apple ecosystem.
* But $799 in the PC world can often stretch further in terms of raw
hardware
(GPU, upgradeability) if yourCOre okay with more complexity.
* If you tell me which tasks you care about (e.g. video editing, 3D,
gaming,
software dev), I can suggest a PC that outperforms that Mac spec at
~$799 rCo so
you can see exactly how good a name-brand PC comparison would be. Want
me to
do that?
I already know.-a PC hardware is less costly, even the Western brands,No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
even M$'s own stuff.-a Apple is a cult.
On 10/15/2025 11:40 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 1:54:00rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<JiJHQ.500368$7Ika.278929@fx17.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
Not that AI is perfect (FAR! from it), but I ran it through ChatGPT out of >> curiosity:
https://chatgpt.com/share/68efbfad-6b70-800c-8554-efdecb711fec
I would say that is a relatively fair assessment. The summary:
-----
Bottom line
* The Mac/M4 combo is very compelling for what it gives in a compact package,
especially in the Apple ecosystem.
* But $799 in the PC world can often stretch further in terms of raw hardware
(GPU, upgradeability) if yourCOre okay with more complexity.
* If you tell me which tasks you care about (e.g. video editing, 3D, gaming, >> software dev), I can suggest a PC that outperforms that Mac spec at ~$799 rCo so
you can see exactly how good a name-brand PC comparison would be. Want me to >> do that?
I already know. PC hardware is less costly, even the Western brands,
even M$'s own stuff. Apple is a cult.
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Apple is a cult.
I would say Linux users *CAN* be more "cultish" -- focused on the philosophy and making it a life style and all but worshipping Stallman. Apple has no such
"activism". Does not mean there are not die hard Apple users who think their way is the only way or whatever, and the whole blue vs. green bubble silliness
shows how some can get a little loony, but nothing like the whole-life philosophy of SOME Linux users.
SOME.
Key word. I was a Linux user (and am backing to tinkering). I ran computer Linux computer labs at multiple schools -- the fact I could run it on pretty much any working donated hardware and then hand out OS media for the cost of the media was amazing. I also had Windows and macOS for students to work with.
They could use what they wanted and pick what worked best for them (and their teachers). To me that made sense: let them be exposed to multiple systems and learn at least the basics of each.
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
On 10/15/2025 1:25 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Apple is a cult.
I would say Linux users *CAN* be more "cultish" -- focused on the philosophy >> and making it a life style and all but worshipping Stallman. Apple has no such
"activism". Does not mean there are not die hard Apple users who think their >> way is the only way or whatever, and the whole blue vs. green bubble silliness
shows how some can get a little loony, but nothing like the whole-life
philosophy of SOME Linux users.
SOME.
Key word. I was a Linux user (and am backing to tinkering). I ran computer >> Linux computer labs at multiple schools -- the fact I could run it on pretty >> much any working donated hardware and then hand out OS media for the cost of >> the media was amazing. I also had Windows and macOS for students to work with.
They could use what they wanted and pick what worked best for them (and their
teachers). To me that made sense: let them be exposed to multiple systems and
learn at least the basics of each.
There is cult within Linux. But Apple actually is in its entirety a
cult. It doesn't mean you are part of the cult, though, Brock - you can
be the one who just melds with their software. But the way people
defend Apple's prices, I mean, it's unbelievable. No budget-conscious
person could pay what they demand, for any of their products. It's
literally like flushing money down the toilet.
Linux workstations blow the doors off all that, of course...I have
a System76 Thelio Mega v1.1, which sports a RTX 3090Ti:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 10:36:09rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <dYQHQ.178250$ol44.59483@fx33.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
They are.
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars, but I like the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
I have a higher end blender and even things like measuring cups that I could find cheaper alternatives because I do a fair amount of cooking and the higher
end tools serve me better and often last longer.
I do not watch much TV so I have a lower end TV.
I do not care about the quality of my couch as much so it is a lower end one (decent, but got it used).
I care about my sleep quality so I have a more expensive bed.
Same philosophy with my computing. I use Apple because their tools serve me better. I have talked about ScreenFlow -- still use it but do less with it than I used to -- but it still is second to none. Usability in terms of consistency between apps is second to none (though with bugs -- can Apple PLEASE fix the weird tabbing / toolbar idiocy that has been bugging me for YEARS?). They have a system which allows me to add "Services" to apps across the system. They have integration between my desktop, laptop, and phone that is (as far as I know) still the envy of the industry. I use them less, but still value the color selection tools and the like on the Mac. Just some benefits:
- Proxy icons
- A Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from within programs
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and
pasting from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into
their history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs
- Consistent common dialog names and placements and hot keys
- Drag and Drop installation
Maybe Windows has caught up here? I doubt it. I know Linux has not (not on the
distros I have looked at anyway).
With that said, I openly admit I am behind on Linux and Windows (and Android for that matter). I do not know all of their modern benefits... I do know Windows and Android have better AI out of the box. Apple is woefully behind there, but I can use third parties on Apple OSs.
And others have different priorities. Some want more customization than can be
done on macOS. Linux! Some want the open source philosophy. Linux! Some want lower costs. Linux!
DonrCOt like GNOME? Try KDE, Xfce, Cinnamon, or many other options. The flexibility is unmatched.
Linux is also fast and resource-efficient. A modern Linux system can make old hardware feel new again. Linux also wins big for development, security, and privacy. It's pretty much the native environment for programming, web servers,
and cloud infrastructure. You get full control over permissions, firewalls, and updates.
Sure, you give up some polish and convenience, but you gain transparency, control, and efficiency.
So yeah rCo- it's all about priorities. For me, Apple's usability and design consistency are worth the trade-offs. But for others, Linux gives freedom, performance, and openness that Apple or Microsoft just can't touch.
In the end, the "best" system is the one that fits your needs and desires, not
your neighbor's.
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
On Oct 15, 2025 at 3:46:32rC>PM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump"" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
Not at all. People CHOOSE to buy them. People in a cult are typically forced to do certain things AND forced to remain in the cult. Leaving peacefully is generally not an option. People also CHOOSE to buy Samsung phones, Toyota cars
and Wendy's burgers. And buy them again and again.
Why do the Apple haters always claim Apple is a "cult"? Is Samsung a "cult"?
Toyota? Wendy's? Why not? They are all extremely popular.
They are all just companies that sell products. Feel free to buy/not buy, whatever you want. But you have to allow me to do the same. Ridiculing people for the products they use only shows YOUR insecurities.
On 10/15/2025 1:25 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Apple is a cult.
I would say Linux users *CAN* be more "cultish" -- focused on the philosophy >> and making it a life style and all but worshipping Stallman. Apple has no such
"activism". Does not mean there are not die hard Apple users who think their >> way is the only way or whatever, and the whole blue vs. green bubble silliness
shows how some can get a little loony, but nothing like the whole-life
philosophy of SOME Linux users.
SOME.
Key word. I was a Linux user (and am backing to tinkering). I ran computer >> Linux computer labs at multiple schools -- the fact I could run it on pretty >> much any working donated hardware and then hand out OS media for the cost of >> the media was amazing. I also had Windows and macOS for students to work with.
They could use what they wanted and pick what worked best for them (and their
teachers). To me that made sense: let them be exposed to multiple systems and
learn at least the basics of each.
There is cult within Linux. But Apple actually is in its entirety a
cult. It doesn't mean you are part of the cult, though, Brock - you can
be the one who just melds with their software. But the way people
defend Apple's prices, I mean, it's unbelievable. No budget-conscious
person could pay what they demand, for any of their products. It's
literally like flushing money down the toilet.
On Oct 15, 2025 at 9:11:49rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <9JPHQ.64754$pQe6.40533@fx40.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 11:40 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 1:54:00rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<JiJHQ.500368$7Ika.278929@fx17.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 4:21 AM, Paul wrote:
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
M4 Mac Mini $799
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
256GB SSD Storage
And you'll notice on that page, that spending more on
one, buys you next-to-nothing in terms of extra capability.
Right, those prices are ridiculously high.
Not that AI is perfect (FAR! from it), but I ran it through ChatGPT
out of curiosity:
https://chatgpt.com/share/68efbfad-6b70-800c-8554-efdecb711fec
I would say that is a relatively fair assessment. The summary:
-----
Bottom line
* The Mac/M4 combo is very compelling for what it gives in a compact
package, especially in the Apple ecosystem.
* But $799 in the PC world can often stretch further in terms of raw
hardware (GPU, upgradeability) if yourCOre okay with more
complexity.
* If you tell me which tasks you care about (e.g. video editing, 3D,
gaming, software dev), I can suggest a PC that outperforms that Mac
spec at ~$799 rCo so you can see exactly how good a name-brand PC
comparison would be. Want me to do that?
I already know. PC hardware is less costly, even the Western brands,
even M$'s own stuff. Apple is a cult.
I would say Linux users *CAN* be more "cultish" -- focused on the
philosophy and making it a life style and all but worshipping
Stallman. Apple has no such "activism". Does not mean there are not
die hard Apple users who think their way is the only way or whatever,
and the whole blue vs. green bubble silliness shows how some can get a
little loony, but nothing like the whole-life philosophy of SOME Linux
users.
SOME.
Key word. I was a Linux user (and am backing to tinkering). I ran
computer Linux computer labs at multiple schools -- the fact I could
run it on pretty much any working donated hardware and then hand out
OS media for the cost of the media was amazing. I also had Windows and
macOS for students to work with. They could use what they wanted and
pick what worked best for them (and their teachers). To me that made
sense: let them be exposed to multiple systems and learn at least the
basics of each.
On Oct 15, 2025 at 10:36:09rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <dYQHQ.178250$ol44.59483@fx33.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
They are.
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars, but
I like the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
I have a higher end blender and even things like measuring cups that I
could find cheaper alternatives because I do a fair amount of cooking
and the higher end tools serve me better and often last longer.
I do not watch much TV so I have a lower end TV.
I do not care about the quality of my couch as much so it is a lower
end one (decent, but got it used).
I care about my sleep quality so I have a more expensive bed.
Same philosophy with my computing. I use Apple because their toolsYour crappy videos and screencasts are well known snit.
serve me better. I have talked about ScreenFlow -- still use it but do
less with it than I used to -- but it still is second to none.
Usability in terms of consistency between apps is second to none
(though with bugs -- can Apple PLEASE fix the weird tabbing / toolbar
idiocy that has been bugging me for YEARS?). They have a system which
allows me to add "Services" to apps across the system. They have
integration between my desktop, laptop, and phone that is (as far as I
know) still the envy of the industry. I use them less, but still value
the color selection tools and the like on the Mac. Just some benefits:
- Proxy icons
- A Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from within programs
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and
pasting from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into
their history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs
- Consistent common dialog names and placements and hot keys
- Drag and Drop installation
Maybe Windows has caught up here? I doubt it. I know Linux has not
(not on the distros I have looked at anyway).
With that said, I openly admit I am behind on Linux and Windows (and
Android for that matter). I do not know all of their modern
benefits... I do know Windows and Android have better AI out of the
box. Apple is woefully behind there, but I can use third parties on
Apple OSs.
And others have different priorities. Some want more customization
than can be done on macOS. Linux! Some want the open source
philosophy. Linux! Some want lower costs. Linux!
DonrCOt like GNOME? Try KDE, Xfce, Cinnamon, or many other options.
The flexibility is unmatched.
Linux is also fast and resource-efficient. A modern Linux system can
make old hardware feel new again. Linux also wins big for development, security, and privacy. It's pretty much the native environment for programming, web servers, and cloud infrastructure. You get full
control over permissions, firewalls, and updates.
Sure, you give up some polish and convenience, but you gain
transparency, control, and efficiency.
So yeah rCo- it's all about priorities. For me, Apple's usability and
design consistency are worth the trade-offs. But for others, Linux
gives freedom, performance, and openness that Apple or Microsoft just
can't touch.
In the end, the "best" system is the one that fits your needs and
desires, not your neighbor's.
On 10/15/2025 1:55 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars,
but I like the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
Corollas (or Elantras) are great and worth it.
I respect the way you use Apple products.
On Oct 15, 2025 at 3:46:32rC>PM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump"" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
Not at all. People CHOOSE to buy them. People in a cult are typically forced to do certain things AND forced to remain in the cult. Leaving peacefully is generally not an option. People also CHOOSE to buy Samsung phones, Toyota cars
and Wendy's burgers. And buy them again and again.
Why do the Apple haters always claim Apple is a "cult"? Is Samsung a "cult"?
Toyota? Wendy's? Why not? They are all extremely popular.
They are all just companies that sell products. Feel free to buy/not buy, whatever you want. But you have to allow me to do the same. Ridiculing people for the products they use only shows YOUR insecurities.
There is cult within Linux. But Apple actually is in its entirety a
cult. It doesn't mean you are part of the cult, though, Brock - you can
be the one who just melds with their software. But the way people
defend Apple's prices, I mean, it's unbelievable. No budget-conscious
person could pay what they demand, for any of their products. It's
literally like flushing money down the toilet.
The point is, everyone has a different budget. Not everyone is poor. Not everyone is wealthy. Apple's prices do not concern me, because I can afford many of them. I don't have a top-of-the-line, $15,000 Mac Studio. I would never spend that much for a computer. I don't NEED that much computer.
But there ARE people who would buy such a system. For whatever reasons. Its not for me to question or ridicule someone who needs/wants that much computer.
That you think they are too expensive is no reason to ridicule people who have a different belief/budget.
Clearly, many people can afford Apple's products. In case you have not noticed, Apple is doing VERY well.
Hyundai and Kia make the worst engines on the planet.[...]
They literally explode no matter how well you take care of them.
nobody <nobody2u@hotmail.org> wrote:
[...]
Hyundai and Kia make the worst engines on the planet.[...]
They literally explode no matter how well you take care of them.
Whoah, _literally?_
What is their TNT weight equivalent; are we talking kilotons?
I think you mean _figuratively,_ Mr nobody.
Get it right or no one will take you seriously.
Tsk, the youth of today. Whatever happened to literacy?
[...]I think you mean _figuratively,_ Mr nobody.
Get it right or no one will take you seriously.
Tsk, the youth of today. Whatever happened to literacy?
On 10/15/2025 1:55 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 10:36:09rC>AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dYQHQ.178250$ol44.59483@fx33.iad>:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
They are.
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars, but I like
the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
I have a higher end blender and even things like measuring cups that I could >> find cheaper alternatives because I do a fair amount of cooking and the higher
end tools serve me better and often last longer.
I do not watch much TV so I have a lower end TV.
I do not care about the quality of my couch as much so it is a lower end one >> (decent, but got it used).
I care about my sleep quality so I have a more expensive bed.
Corollas (or Elantras) are great and worth it.
And the way *you*
purchase Mac hardware does make economic sense. It's just that some
people are too quick to pay anything demanded.
I have seen you invest
in tech, use it for a long time, and I recognize that in Alan too,
people who actually understand what they're buying. It doesn't change
the fact that Apple is extorting people with big bucks, though, they
totally are, they know the customers don't like Windows, and will pay
through the nose to get a really leet Mac. And that's capitalism, at
the end of the day. But I could never buy an Apple device again.
Same philosophy with my computing. I use Apple because their tools serve me >> better. I have talked about ScreenFlow -- still use it but do less with it >> than I used to -- but it still is second to none. Usability in terms of
consistency between apps is second to none (though with bugs -- can Apple
PLEASE fix the weird tabbing / toolbar idiocy that has been bugging me for >> YEARS?). They have a system which allows me to add "Services" to apps across >> the system. They have integration between my desktop, laptop, and phone that >> is (as far as I know) still the envy of the industry. I use them less, but >> still value the color selection tools and the like on the Mac. Just some
benefits:
- Proxy icons
- A Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from within programs
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and
pasting from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into
their history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs
- Consistent common dialog names and placements and hot keys
- Drag and Drop installation
Maybe Windows has caught up here? I doubt it. I know Linux has not (not on the
distros I have looked at anyway).
With that said, I openly admit I am behind on Linux and Windows (and Android >> for that matter). I do not know all of their modern benefits... I do know
Windows and Android have better AI out of the box. Apple is woefully behind >> there, but I can use third parties on Apple OSs.
And others have different priorities. Some want more customization than can be
done on macOS. Linux! Some want the open source philosophy. Linux! Some want >> lower costs. Linux!
DonrCOt like GNOME? Try KDE, Xfce, Cinnamon, or many other options. The
flexibility is unmatched.
Linux is also fast and resource-efficient. A modern Linux system can make old
hardware feel new again. Linux also wins big for development, security, and >> privacy. It's pretty much the native environment for programming, web servers,
and cloud infrastructure. You get full control over permissions, firewalls, >> and updates.
Sure, you give up some polish and convenience, but you gain transparency,
control, and efficiency.
So yeah rCo- it's all about priorities. For me, Apple's usability and design >> consistency are worth the trade-offs. But for others, Linux gives freedom, >> performance, and openness that Apple or Microsoft just can't touch.
In the end, the "best" system is the one that fits your needs and desires, not
your neighbor's.
I respect the way you use Apple products.
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
On 10/15/2025 5:06 PM, Tyrone wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 3:46:32rC>PM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump""
<joelcrump@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
Not at all. People CHOOSE to buy them.-a People in a cult are typically
forced
to do certain things AND forced to remain in the cult. Leaving
peacefully is
generally not an option. People also CHOOSE to buy Samsung phones,
Toyota cars
and Wendy's burgers. And buy them again and again.
Why do the Apple haters always claim Apple is a "cult"?-a Is Samsung a
"cult"?
-a-a Toyota?-a Wendy's?-a Why not? They are all extremely popular.
They are all just companies that sell products.-a Feel free to buy/not
buy,
whatever you want.-a But you have to allow me to do the same.-a Ridiculing >> people for the products they use only shows YOUR insecurities.
Samsung doesn't impose the kind of mind-warping crap that Apple does,
with regard to the Galaxy S vs. iPhone.-a Apple in terms of the MacDefine what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they really
don't like Windows and/or Linux.-a It's quirkware.-a It's for people with brains that are not up to speed.-a And that's why it costs so much,
you're getting speshul treatment.
So, altogether when you need a lot of stuff connected, lots of USBthis_watches_over_my_other_workspot_IMG_6195.JPG
ports, extra stuff will always be needed,
SDcard reader USB module too on the table.
Some aspberry HATs I designed and wrote are in use (magnetic compass)
and an IR camera module interfae HAT laying ready for use.
And of course you need soem security with all tha texpansive stuff;
https://panteltje.nl/pub/
that stuff on the right is a Geiger counter and a gamma spectrometer I designed and build.
The PC runs Slackware.
CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid>wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:20:22 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
So, altogether when you need a lot of stuff connected, lots of USBthis_watches_over_my_other_workspot_IMG_6195.JPG
ports, extra stuff will always be needed,
SDcard reader USB module too on the table.
Some aspberry HATs I designed and wrote are in use (magnetic compass)
and an IR camera module interfae HAT laying ready for use.
And of course you need soem security with all tha texpansive stuff;
https://panteltje.nl/pub/
that stuff on the right is a Geiger counter and a gamma spectrometer I
designed and build.
The PC runs Slackware.
That's an amazing setup, Jan, *impressive*.
One thing I would do differently is to add more cables and wires and
cords; you don't have enough.
You can always run them along the ceiling and then down to the peripherals >if you run out of space on the floor. EfyCN+A
