From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc


Just curious, is there a wide ranged problem in Linux installers these
days? I mostly just use and maintain Debian on my computers and it just
works. I dabble in Arch and Ubuntu on occasion but not that much.

I thought I might want to try and turn my old laptop nee "Mobile
Workstation" (HP zBook 15 G3, 2016 vintage) into a game system and
hoping for stuff working out of the box with minimal fiddling I decided
to try a couple of game oriented distros.

First was Bazzite. Fedora based so Anaconda installer. The partitioning
stuff is fairly incomprehensible but in automatic mode it deigned to use
the unpartitioned space on the SSD and went ahead. And quit with ostree
blah blah exited with code 1. Installation aborted.

I figured I'll try vanilla Fedora here (Fedora-Kinoite-ostree-x86_64-42-1.1.iso) since it could be converted
into Bazzite easily but same result. Goggle wasn't helpful, found only
some vague references to Fedora maybe not liking existing things in the
EFI partition, blank devices would maybe work... Mine has a bunch of
stuff from Debian, Windows, HP's Bios update stuff. Not wiping a working
Debian installation for this experiment, thank you.

Next then was Drauger, Ubuntu based, Edamame installer. More
understandable partitioning but after answering the few (but too many) questions it asks about where and what to install, it just quits. No
error message, no nothing. Just nada, zip, zilch. I couldn't believe it
but there was no installer running any more in the process list.

So, sticking with Debian and if I need something newer, then Arch. But
really, three trial installation, three failures, doesn't look good. Is
this how it is, in 2025? I guess two of three, Bazzite and Drauger, are
niche but Fedora's failure seems odd. Or is it just "we support dual
boot with Windows, if you have any other Linux installed, fuck off?"

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/10/2025 14:07, Anssi Saari wrote:

Just curious, is there a wide ranged problem in Linux installers these
days? I mostly just use and maintain Debian on my computers and it just works. I dabble in Arch and Ubuntu on occasion but not that much.

I thought I might want to try and turn my old laptop nee "Mobile
Workstation" (HP zBook 15 G3, 2016 vintage) into a game system and
hoping for stuff working out of the box with minimal fiddling I decided
to try a couple of game oriented distros.

First was Bazzite. Fedora based so Anaconda installer. The partitioning
stuff is fairly incomprehensible but in automatic mode it deigned to use
the unpartitioned space on the SSD and went ahead. And quit with ostree
blah blah exited with code 1. Installation aborted.

I figured I'll try vanilla Fedora here (Fedora-Kinoite-ostree-x86_64-42-1.1.iso) since it could be converted
into Bazzite easily but same result. Goggle wasn't helpful, found only
some vague references to Fedora maybe not liking existing things in the
EFI partition, blank devices would maybe work... Mine has a bunch of
stuff from Debian, Windows, HP's Bios update stuff. Not wiping a working Debian installation for this experiment, thank you.

Next then was Drauger, Ubuntu based, Edamame installer. More
understandable partitioning but after answering the few (but too many) questions it asks about where and what to install, it just quits. No
error message, no nothing. Just nada, zip, zilch. I couldn't believe it
but there was no installer running any more in the process list.

So, sticking with Debian and if I need something newer, then Arch. But really, three trial installation, three failures, doesn't look good. Is
this how it is, in 2025? I guess two of three, Bazzite and Drauger, are
niche but Fedora's failure seems odd. Or is it just "we support dual
boot with Windows, if you have any other Linux installed, fuck off?"

Well I install nothing but Mint these days on *86 and provided I just go
the default route it GenerallyJustWorksrao. At one time I had to fuck
around with BIOS settings [legacy/UEFI/Secure boot shit] but there was
only a combination of about 9 of those and I found one that worked on
the 3rd try.

Last time I abandoned an install was the day I tried ubuntu, failed and
first installed Mint. Somewhere around 2008?

There have been issues with video cards and wifi chipsets, but the basic installs have never failed.

Upgrades are a different matter.

It may be worth installing a new disk and trying again.
--
rCLPolitics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.rCY
rCo Groucho Marx

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 07 Oct 2025 16:07:56 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

And quit with ostree blah blah exited with code 1. Installation
aborted.

I would have tried getting more detail on the precise error
message(s). There should be ways to get more verbosity out of the
installation procedure -- check the documentation.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/7/25 09:07, Anssi Saari wrote:

Just curious, is there a wide ranged problem in Linux installers these
days? I mostly just use and maintain Debian on my computers and it just works. I dabble in Arch and Ubuntu on occasion but not that much.

I thought I might want to try and turn my old laptop nee "Mobile
Workstation" (HP zBook 15 G3, 2016 vintage) into a game system and
hoping for stuff working out of the box with minimal fiddling I decided
to try a couple of game oriented distros.

The quality of installers varies a bit. The depth/quality
of hardware detection is the main gotcha so far as I can
tell.

Mostly I stick to MX these days. Ubuntu got too
weird years ago - never again. The MX installer was
the first I found to properly detect a M.2 "hdd"
in laptops. They all do, NOW ...

But, I've had fair luck with Manjaro and Fedora
installers too ... though they sometimes make
it a bit difficult to see how to proceed. Fedora
is almost fanatical when it comes to creating
the default disk layout/format. Frankly I do
not care for BTRFS ....

My newest xHDD ... did that in XFS. It's fast
and reliable (can't shrink the parts though).
Mostly though EXT4 or 3 is best - fully
mature and lots of tools/methods for finding
and fixing errors.

OpenSUSE is still a 'Cadillac' distro (if
rather 'fat'). It is very good at installs
and all possible setups. Maybe the best if
creating servers ... unless you need BSDs
like for outward-facing high-vol servers.
Setting up soft-RAID is super easy, and
comes with USEFUL info during the process.
Love it, except for the 'fatness' (and
that it dropped several very useful legacy
utilities and the smarter version of ffmpeg).

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-08 07:35, c186282 wrote:

On 10/7/25 09:07, Anssi Saari wrote:

Just curious, is there a wide ranged problem in Linux installers these
days? I mostly just use and maintain Debian on my computers and it just
works. I dabble in Arch and Ubuntu on occasion but not that much.

I thought I might want to try and turn my old laptop nee "Mobile
Workstation" (HP zBook 15 G3, 2016 vintage) into a game system and
hoping for stuff working out of the box with minimal fiddling I decided
to try a couple of game oriented distros.

-a The quality of installers varies a bit. The depth/quality
-a of hardware detection is the main gotcha so far as I can
-a tell.

-a Mostly I stick to MX these days. Ubuntu got too
-a weird years ago - never again. The MX installer was
-a the first I found to properly detect a M.2 "hdd"
-a in laptops. They all do, NOW ...

-a But, I've had fair luck with Manjaro and Fedora
-a installers too ... though they sometimes make
-a it a bit difficult to see how to proceed. Fedora
-a is almost fanatical when it comes to creating
-a the default disk layout/format. Frankly I do
-a not care for BTRFS ....

-a My newest xHDD ... did that in XFS. It's fast
-a and reliable (can't shrink the parts though).
-a Mostly though EXT4 or 3 is best - fully
-a mature and lots of tools/methods for finding
-a and fixing errors.

-a OpenSUSE is still a 'Cadillac' distro (if
-a rather 'fat'). It is very good at installs
-a and all possible setups. Maybe the best if
-a creating servers ... unless you need BSDs
-a like for outward-facing high-vol servers.
-a Setting up soft-RAID is super easy, and
-a comes with USEFUL info during the process.
-a Love it, except for the 'fatness' (and
-a that it dropped several very useful legacy
-a utilities and the smarter version of ffmpeg).

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good partitioner section. But Leap 16.0 has ditched YaST and switched to Agama, web
browser based, I understand. Also I understand that is an unfinished
product, so it is getting a fair amount of criticism.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 10:53:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good partitioner section.

Most installers give you some way of switching to a text terminal window
with a standard shell prompt. Because after all the installation volume is running on a full-function Linux kernel, after all. This lets you do
custom pre-setup (like special partitioning) even if the installer itself doesnrCOt have that level of functionality.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/8/25 04:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-10-08 07:35, c186282 wrote:

On 10/7/25 09:07, Anssi Saari wrote:

Just curious, is there a wide ranged problem in Linux installers these
days? I mostly just use and maintain Debian on my computers and it just
works. I dabble in Arch and Ubuntu on occasion but not that much.

I thought I might want to try and turn my old laptop nee "Mobile
Workstation" (HP zBook 15 G3, 2016 vintage) into a game system and
hoping for stuff working out of the box with minimal fiddling I decided
to try a couple of game oriented distros.

-a-a The quality of installers varies a bit. The depth/quality
-a-a of hardware detection is the main gotcha so far as I can
-a-a tell.

-a-a Mostly I stick to MX these days. Ubuntu got too
-a-a weird years ago - never again. The MX installer was
-a-a the first I found to properly detect a M.2 "hdd"
-a-a in laptops. They all do, NOW ...

-a-a But, I've had fair luck with Manjaro and Fedora
-a-a installers too ... though they sometimes make
-a-a it a bit difficult to see how to proceed. Fedora
-a-a is almost fanatical when it comes to creating
-a-a the default disk layout/format. Frankly I do
-a-a not care for BTRFS ....

-a-a My newest xHDD ... did that in XFS. It's fast
-a-a and reliable (can't shrink the parts though).
-a-a Mostly though EXT4 or 3 is best - fully
-a-a mature and lots of tools/methods for finding
-a-a and fixing errors.

-a-a OpenSUSE is still a 'Cadillac' distro (if
-a-a rather 'fat'). It is very good at installs
-a-a and all possible setups. Maybe the best if
-a-a creating servers ... unless you need BSDs
-a-a like for outward-facing high-vol servers.
-a-a Setting up soft-RAID is super easy, and
-a-a comes with USEFUL info during the process.
-a-a Love it, except for the 'fatness' (and
-a-a that it dropped several very useful legacy
-a-a utilities and the smarter version of ffmpeg).

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good partitioner section. But Leap 16.0 has ditched YaST and switched to Agama, web
browser based, I understand. Also I understand that is an unfinished product, so it is getting a fair amount of criticism.

Oh shit ! VERY bad move !!!

So much for OpenSUSE .....

My guess ... they had ONE guy who did maint
on YAST - and he retired.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 10/8/25 04:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good
partitioner section. But Leap 16.0 has ditched YaST and switched to
Agama, web browser based, I understand. Also I understand that is
an unfinished product, so it is getting a fair amount of criticism.

Oh shit ! VERY bad move !!!

So much for OpenSUSE .....

My guess ... they had ONE guy who did maint on YAST - and he
retired.

And, likely, the new replacement guy is one of the younger crowd who
has only ever known "web programming" and so "rewrite the installer as
a web app" is the outcome.

And example of the saying: "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then
all your problems begin to look like nails".

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-08 23:06, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 8 Oct 2025 10:53:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good partitioner
section.

Most installers give you some way of switching to a text terminal window
with a standard shell prompt. Because after all the installation volume is running on a full-function Linux kernel, after all. This lets you do
custom pre-setup (like special partitioning) even if the installer itself doesnrCOt have that level of functionality.

Yes, YaST can run in text mode. If you call "yast" it is text, if "YAST"
or other combos, graphical.

And when booted the install graphical system, you can start xterm windows.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 9 Oct 2025 21:25:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-10-08 23:06, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

Most installers give you some way of switching to a text terminal
window with a standard shell prompt. Because after all the
installation volume is running on a full-function Linux kernel,
after all. This lets you do custom pre-setup (like special
partitioning) even if the installer itself doesnrCOt have that level
of functionality.

Yes, YaST can run in text mode.

Not usually necessary. The GUI installer would be running in a
standard GUI session off the installation media, but given you are
running a fully-functional regular Linux kernel, the usual CTRL-ALT-Fn keystrokes will work for switching to a text console.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/9/25 14:52, Rich wrote:

c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 10/8/25 04:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The YaST installer is very good, up to Leap 15.6. Very good
partitioner section. But Leap 16.0 has ditched YaST and switched to
Agama, web browser based, I understand. Also I understand that is
an unfinished product, so it is getting a fair amount of criticism.

Oh shit ! VERY bad move !!!

So much for OpenSUSE .....

My guess ... they had ONE guy who did maint on YAST - and he
retired.

And, likely, the new replacement guy is one of the younger crowd who
has only ever known "web programming" and so "rewrite the installer as
a web app" is the outcome.

And example of the saying: "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then
all your problems begin to look like nails".

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

YAST was the deal-maker for OpenSUSE - the ease and
IQ it bought to config/reconfig was what made it
more than just another fat RPM distro.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/9/25 17:45, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 9 Oct 2025 21:25:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-10-08 23:06, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

Most installers give you some way of switching to a text terminal
window with a standard shell prompt. Because after all the
installation volume is running on a full-function Linux kernel,
after all. This lets you do custom pre-setup (like special
partitioning) even if the installer itself doesnrCOt have that level
of functionality.

Yes, YaST can run in text mode.

Not usually necessary. The GUI installer would be running in a
standard GUI session off the installation media, but given you are
running a fully-functional regular Linux kernel, the usual CTRL-ALT-Fn keystrokes will work for switching to a text console.

Not usually "necessary" - but it was good when
you needed it, like for servers with no GUI.
(I can just see the newbies falling back out
of their chairs - "NO GUI ???!!!" :-)

The text version and GUI version were amazingly
alike too.

Anyway, YAST was the deal-maker for OpenSUSE. Now
I'll have no reason to install a fat RPM distro
at all anywhere.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-10 03:41, c186282 wrote:

On 10/9/25 17:45, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 9 Oct 2025 21:25:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-10-08 23:06, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

Most installers give you some way of switching to a text terminal
window with a standard shell prompt. Because after all the
installation volume is running on a full-function Linux kernel,
after all. This lets you do custom pre-setup (like special
partitioning) even if the installer itself doesnrCOt have that level
of functionality.

Yes, YaST can run in text mode.

Not usually necessary. The GUI installer would be running in a
standard GUI session off the installation media, but given you are
running a fully-functional regular Linux kernel, the usual CTRL-ALT-Fn
keystrokes will work for switching to a text console.

-a Not usually "necessary" - but it was good when
-a you needed it, like for servers with no GUI.
-a (I can just see the newbies falling back out
-a of their chairs - "NO GUI ???!!!" :-)

When using ssh to another system it is useful to run yast inside as
text. You can also run it graphically by using "ssh -X
root@system.whatever". At least in a lan it runs fine, dunno over internet.

-a The text version and GUI version were amazingly
-a alike too.

-a Anyway, YAST was the deal-maker for OpenSUSE. Now
-a I'll have no reason to install a fat RPM distro
-a at all anywhere.

That's what I told them, and I got almost insulted.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 09:21:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

When using ssh to another system it is useful to run yast inside as
text.

Yeah, but that assumes you already have the system installed and it has an
SSH server running.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-10 15:21, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 09:21:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

When using ssh to another system it is useful to run yast inside as
text.

Yeah, but that assumes you already have the system installed and it has an SSH server running.

Ok, fair enough.

I haven't done remote installations, but there are people doing them,
and they say that one of the things they use is installation over ssh. I
can not explain how.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 21:15:11 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I haven't done remote installations, but there are people doing them,
and they say that one of the things they use is installation over ssh. I
can not explain how.

I canrCOt think how, either. Various VM-hosting facilities do offer ways for you to get to the console remotely, typically via a Web interface, and you
can do installs and other low-level operations that way. Tends to be
pretty clunky, but at least itrCOs available as a last resort.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/10/25 09:21, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 09:21:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

When using ssh to another system it is useful to run yast inside as
text.

Yeah, but that assumes you already have the system installed and it has an SSH server running.

Well, it SOON will .....

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/10/25 17:53, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 21:15:11 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I haven't done remote installations, but there are people doing them,
and they say that one of the things they use is installation over ssh. I
can not explain how.

I canrCOt think how, either. Various VM-hosting facilities do offer ways for you to get to the console remotely, typically via a Web interface, and you can do installs and other low-level operations that way. Tends to be
pretty clunky, but at least itrCOs available as a last resort.

SOME may want/need to do this, but I never have and
likely few even here ever have.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca means
shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can understand
it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could be
translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.
--
Si vous avez du temps |a perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-11, St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can understand
it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could be
translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too. It's usually
in the context of babies, toilet training, etc. - but it makes a
nice enough fit that I just might start saying "cacascript" myself.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:48:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-11, St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too. It's usually in
the context of babies, toilet training, etc. - but it makes a nice
enough fit that I just might start saying "cacascript" myself.

It does retail the original syllabic pattern better than merdescript. That word does work rather well for Lake Merde though, to match lake Foul.

The question is if anyone in the real world calls it ECMAScript?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-11, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:48:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-11, St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too. It's usually in
the context of babies, toilet training, etc. - but it makes a nice
enough fit that I just might start saying "cacascript" myself.

It does retail the original syllabic pattern better than merdescript. That word does work rather well for Lake Merde though, to match lake Foul.

The question is if anyone in the real world calls it ECMAScript?

That sounds like a painful skin disease.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 11 Oct 2025 15:10:28 GMT, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

In French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French
caca means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript
can understand it's shit designing javascript.

JavaScript actually has some good parts. It also now has rCLstrict moderCY, so you can protect yourself from some of the stupider parts.

Of course, I mainly use it in web pages. I have no experience writing code
for NodeJS, for example, so someone who had to might have a different
opinion ...
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 19:08:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

The question is if anyone in the real world calls it ECMAScript?

That sounds like a painful skin disease.

I wonder if the Noxzema cosmetics company uses it ...
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-11 17:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca means shit.

Hehe, same meaning in Spanish :-D

So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can understand
it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could be
translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:52:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Because in French caca means shit.

Hehe, same meaning in Spanish :-D

I often wondered about rCLLake TiticacarCY ...
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-12 00:48, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:52:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Because in French caca means shit.

Hehe, same meaning in Spanish :-D

I often wondered about rCLLake TiticacarCY ...

:-)

Must derive from a local language, I guess.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 19:31:50 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On 11 Oct 2025 15:10:28 GMT, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

In French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript.

JavaScript actually has some good parts. It also now has rCLstrict moderCY, so you can protect yourself from some of the stupider parts.

Of course, I mainly use it in web pages. I have no experience writing
code for NodeJS, for example, so someone who had to might have a
different opinion ...

TypeScript helps a little but it isn't foolproof. One of our spelling challenged programmers inadvertently added a field to the equivalent of a C struct. Setting baar = true doesn't help much when another section of code checks for the value of bar.

I wonder if Eich ever wakes up at 3 AM wondering about what he unleashed on the world?

https://thenewstack.io/brendan-eich-on-creating-javascript-in-10-days-and-what-hed-do-differently-today/



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On 10/11/25 11:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can understand
it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could be
translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

Well, even without perfect translation, we all GET IT :-)

PHP is bliss by comparison.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/11/25 15:08, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-11, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:48:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-11, St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could >>>> be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any >>>> scripting language.

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too. It's usually in
the context of babies, toilet training, etc. - but it makes a nice
enough fit that I just might start saying "cacascript" myself.

It does retail the original syllabic pattern better than merdescript. That >> word does work rather well for Lake Merde though, to match lake Foul.

The question is if anyone in the real world calls it ECMAScript?

That sounds like a painful skin disease.

ICKmasScript would be more appropriate :-)

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:02:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 10/11/25 11:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

Well, even without perfect translation, we all GET IT :-)

PHP is bliss by comparison.

It was a sad day when Personal Home Page survived the era when Mon and Pop clobbered together a HTML 2.0 website.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/12/25 02:39, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:02:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 10/11/25 11:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

Well, even without perfect translation, we all GET IT :-)

PHP is bliss by comparison.

It was a sad day when Personal Home Page survived the era when Mon and Pop clobbered together a HTML 2.0 website.

Well ... PHP does still have it's place - and I've coded
a lot of it.

It's two main virtues ... it has 'C'-like syntax/reasoning
and it runs on the server instead of burdening your PC.

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who
didn't have the password I wrote a short JS script with
a massive floating-point/trig equation that repeated as
fast as possible. Get it wrong and your PC fan would
cut in full immediately and a bunch of warnings would
appear in the browser :-)

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Le 11-10-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a |-crit-a:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:48:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-11, St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too.

I didn't knew that.

It's usually in the context of babies, toilet training, etc.

It looks like it's something similar in French. The exact translation of
shit in French is merde. Which is at the same time the designation of
shit and everything that's related to it even if very loosely. Like a
shitty situation, would be "une situation merdique" in French. But, it
would have the same issue for designing javascript.

- but it makes a nice
enough fit that I just might start saying "cacascript" myself.

It does retail the original syllabic pattern better than merdescript.

Exactly. The use of merdescript like shitscript would loose the relation implying it speaks explicitly about javascript and not about any
scripting language. The use of cacascript dosen't sound like a childish
way to avoid the use of a slang term. It's obvious it's mandatory to
keep the relation.
--
Si vous avez du temps |a perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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On 11/10/2025 16:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and
fuckin' JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can understand
it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could be
translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

JavaShitrao, St|-phane, is what I call it.
--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 12/10/2025 01:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-10-12 00:48, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:52:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Because in French caca means shit.

Hehe, same meaning in Spanish :-D

I often wondered about rCLLake TiticacarCY ...

:-)

Must derive from a local language, I guess.

"The name "Titicaca" is widely believed to be a Spanish corruption of
the Aymara phrase titi qala or titi q'aq'a, meaning "stone puma" or
"gray puma". This name likely refers to the lake's shape, which
resembles a puma, or to a sacred carved rock on Isla del Sol that has
the shape of a puma"
--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

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On 12/10/2025 07:39, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:02:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 10/11/25 11:10, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:

Le 10-10-2025, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> a |-crit-a:

Yea, great, half a zillion lines of HTML, PHP and fuckin'
JAVASCRIPT ........

You remind me of a good example of a difficult thing to translate. In
French, I'm calling javascript: cacascript. Because in French caca
means shit. So any French speaker reading/hearing cacascript can
understand it's shit designing javascript. I have no idea how it could
be translated in English because shitscript could be understood as any
scripting language.

Well, even without perfect translation, we all GET IT :-)

PHP is bliss by comparison.

It was a sad day when Personal Home Page survived the era when Mon and Pop clobbered together a HTML 2.0 website.

I use PHP, but I never make it do a lot.
Like MySQL it isn't very good in quantity.

If there is anything complex, they both call code written in C.

My personal custom sites are generally control panels for specialised
hardware and use JavaScript + AJAX in the browser to call php and C to
'do what websites were never intended for' . Real[ish] time control .
--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

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On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 02:59:09 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who didn't have
the password I wrote a short JS script with a massive
floating-point/trig equation that repeated as fast as possible. Get
it wrong and your PC fan would cut in full immediately and a bunch of
warnings would appear in the browser

You would be a ball of laughs with a rubber ducky.

https://github.com/hak5/usbrubberducky-payloads

If you have a Pico the Adafruit CircuitPython bundle has a handy
adafruit_pid lib.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 12:17:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I use PHP, but I never make it do a lot.
Like MySQL it isn't very good in quantity.

MySQL/MariaDB is an industrial-strength DBMS. PHP, on the other hand ...

If there is anything complex, they both call code written in C.

Unless that code is CPU-intensive, you are just making extra work for yourself.

My personal custom sites are generally control panels for specialised hardware and use JavaScript + AJAX in the browser to call php and C to
'do what websites were never intended for' . Real[ish] time control .

WebSockets can enhance that kind of thing quite a bit. But itrCOs not something PHP copes well with. Try Python, with a suitable ASGI framework.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/12/25 23:28, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 12:17:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I use PHP, but I never make it do a lot.
Like MySQL it isn't very good in quantity.

MySQL/MariaDB is an industrial-strength DBMS. PHP, on the other hand ...

If there is anything complex, they both call code written in C.

Unless that code is CPU-intensive, you are just making extra work for yourself.

My personal custom sites are generally control panels for specialised
hardware and use JavaScript + AJAX in the browser to call php and C to
'do what websites were never intended for' . Real[ish] time control .

WebSockets can enhance that kind of thing quite a bit. But itrCOs not something PHP copes well with. Try Python, with a suitable ASGI framework.

The big DBs are hyper-complex. There are many
methods/langs to get data from them

But what's "best" ... that's always a subjective
call.

No, not gonna trash Python ... it's one of my
favorite go-to langs.

The 'C' cult ... they'll disagree :-)


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On 13/10/2025 08:41, c186282 wrote:

On 10/12/25 23:28, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 12:17:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I use PHP, but I never make it do a lot.
Like MySQL it isn't very good in quantity.

MySQL/MariaDB is an industrial-strength DBMS. PHP, on the other hand ...

If there is anything complex, they both-a call code written in C.

Unless that code is CPU-intensive, you are just making extra work for
yourself.

My personal custom sites are generally control panels for specialised
hardware and use JavaScript + AJAX in the browser to call-a php and C to >>> 'do what websites were never intended for' . Real[ish] time control .

WebSockets can enhance that kind of thing quite a bit. But itrCOs not
something PHP copes well with. Try Python, with a suitable ASGI
framework.

-a The big DBs are hyper-complex. There are many
-a methods/langs to get data from them

-a But what's "best" ... that's always a subjective
-a call.

-a No, not gonna trash Python ... it's one of my
-a favorite go-to langs.

-a The 'C' cult ... they'll disagree :-)

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.
--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)


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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-13 11:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 13/10/2025 08:41, c186282 wrote:

On 10/12/25 23:28, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 12:17:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I use PHP, but I never make it do a lot.
Like MySQL it isn't very good in quantity.

MySQL/MariaDB is an industrial-strength DBMS. PHP, on the other hand ... >>>

If there is anything complex, they both-a call code written in C.

Unless that code is CPU-intensive, you are just making extra work for
yourself.

My personal custom sites are generally control panels for specialised
hardware and use JavaScript + AJAX in the browser to call-a php and C to >>>> 'do what websites were never intended for' . Real[ish] time control .

WebSockets can enhance that kind of thing quite a bit. But itrCOs not
something PHP copes well with. Try Python, with a suitable ASGI
framework.

-a-a The big DBs are hyper-complex. There are many
-a-a methods/langs to get data from them

-a-a But what's "best" ... that's always a subjective
-a-a call.

-a-a No, not gonna trash Python ... it's one of my
-a-a favorite go-to langs.

-a-a The 'C' cult ... they'll disagree :-)

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.

Lots of engineering software in Basic.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 12 Oct 2025 11:07:46 GMT
Stophane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

We sometimes use "caca" to mean "shit" in English too.

I didn't knew that.

English *loves* to appropriate swear words from other languages. We
have so many to choose from as a result that they've acquired a kind of informal scale-of-rudeness; even a comically innocent thing like
"poppycock" is derived from the Dutch for "soft dung."
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 19:20 this Sunday (GMT):

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 02:59:09 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who didn't have
the password I wrote a short JS script with a massive
floating-point/trig equation that repeated as fast as possible. Get
it wrong and your PC fan would cut in full immediately and a bunch of
warnings would appear in the browser

I think most browsers sandbox their tabs better. so it wouldn't be too
much of an issue for the end user. I'd still find it incredibly
annoying, though.

You would be a ball of laughs with a rubber ducky.

https://github.com/hak5/usbrubberducky-payloads

If you have a Pico the Adafruit CircuitPython bundle has a handy adafruit_pid lib.

That looks really cool, I'll check it out :D
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 02:59:09 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who didn't have
the password I wrote a short JS script with a massive
floating-point/trig equation that repeated as fast as possible. Get
it wrong and your PC fan would cut in full immediately and a bunch of >>> warnings would appear in the browser

My first thought, given this involves floating point, is:

Is this somehow exploitable by using an Intel Pentium?
--
Nuno Silva
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 10:20:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.

PHP is like the new BASIC -- people use it because they donrCOt know any better.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 21:56:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 10:20:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.

PHP is like the new BASIC -- people use it because they donrCOt know any better.

The acronyms themselves tell the story. 'Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code' and 'Personal Home Page'.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/13/25 20:35, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 21:56:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 10:20:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.

PHP is like the new BASIC -- people use it because they donrCOt know any
better.

The acronyms themselves tell the story. 'Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code' and 'Personal Home Page'.

Ummm ... I'm not going to trash BASIC or PHP.
They're comprehensible and serve their purpose
without being pretentious or ivory-tower. Good
stuff is good stuff.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/13/25 13:38, Nuno Silva wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 02:59:09 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who didn't have >>>> the password I wrote a short JS script with a massive
floating-point/trig equation that repeated as fast as possible. Get >>>> it wrong and your PC fan would cut in full immediately and a bunch of >>>> warnings would appear in the browser

My first thought, given this involves floating point, is:

Is this somehow exploitable by using an Intel Pentium?

That old old bug ???

Dunno.

99.99999% wouldn't know how anyway - just
get browser-freezing overheating.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/13/25 12:50, candycanearter07 wrote:

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 19:20 this Sunday (GMT):

On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 02:59:09 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Had a web page with a sign-in ... to "punish" those who didn't have
the password I wrote a short JS script with a massive
floating-point/trig equation that repeated as fast as possible. Get
it wrong and your PC fan would cut in full immediately and a bunch of >>> warnings would appear in the browser

I think most browsers sandbox their tabs better. so it wouldn't be too
much of an issue for the end user. I'd still find it incredibly
annoying, though.

That was the plan.

The 'burn' was accompanied by a pic of The Devil :-)


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 01:21:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Ummm ... I'm not going to trash BASIC or PHP. They're comprehensible
and serve their purpose without being pretentious or ivory-tower.
Good stuff is good stuff.

I've never done much with BASIC and my PHP experience comes from trying to
fix a PHP app developed by another programmer. My real bone to pick with
BASIC is its influence on COM. It gets real old wading through BSTRs, and Variants introduced because typing in VB sucked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variant_type_(COM)

The path from DDE to OLE to COM is another one of those evolutions that
could have used some natural selection.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 01:21:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Ummm ... I'm not going to trash BASIC or PHP. They're comprehensible
and serve their purpose without being pretentious or ivory-tower.
Good stuff is good stuff.

Stuff that works, stuff that holds up
The kind of stuff you don't hang on the wall
Stuff that's real, stuff you feel
The kind of stuff you reach for when you fall
-- Guy Clark

I've never done much with BASIC and my PHP experience comes from trying to fix a PHP app developed by another programmer. My real bone to pick with BASIC is its influence on COM. It gets real old wading through BSTRs, and Variants introduced because typing in VB sucked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variant_type_(COM)

The path from DDE to OLE to COM is another one of those evolutions that could have used some natural selection.

One of my various attempts at inter-program communication was DDE.
I managed to come up with a program that would kill the "unkillable"
Windows NT.

I finally switched to sockets. More robust, more straightforward,
portable to Linux, and since my messages were lines of ASCII text,
I could use telnet for debugging, as well as diagnosing customer sites.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 00:35 this Tuesday (GMT):

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 21:56:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 10:20:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen accounting programs written in BASIC too.

PHP is like the new BASIC -- people use it because they donrCOt know any
better.

The acronyms themselves tell the story. 'Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code' and 'Personal Home Page'.

Technically, the acronym for PHP now stands for "PHP hates programmers".
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 21:30:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

Technically, the acronym for PHP now stands for "PHP hates programmers".

I can relate to that. ;)
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 10/14/25 02:56, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 01:21:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Ummm ... I'm not going to trash BASIC or PHP. They're comprehensible
and serve their purpose without being pretentious or ivory-tower.
Good stuff is good stuff.

I've never done much with BASIC and my PHP experience comes from trying to fix a PHP app developed by another programmer. My real bone to pick with BASIC is its influence on COM. It gets real old wading through BSTRs, and Variants introduced because typing in VB sucked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variant_type_(COM)

The path from DDE to OLE to COM is another one of those evolutions that
could have used some natural selection.

COMs are a bit weird for my tastes. Lots
of languages have their own takes on them
however.

Hmm ... how to best code something like
that in K&R 'C' ?

Did lots of BASIC programs, but was kind of
out of that before it ever became "visual".
Turbo Pascal ... and BASIC went into the
bottom drawer.

However IF you keep it strict and straight you
can do very complex stuff with BASIC and it
works as well as lots of other languages.
Pref the 'look & feel' of Python a lot
more however, so I doubt I'll ever do
another BASIC program.

PHP ... I've done a fair bit with that - adding
a lot of badly needed IQ to stupid web pages.
Pages wind up like one-third HTML and the rest
being PHP. Beats JS !

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-10-15, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 10/14/25 02:56, rbowman wrote:

The path from DDE to OLE to COM is another one of those evolutions that
could have used some natural selection.

COMs are a bit weird for my tastes. Lots
of languages have their own takes on them
however.

Hmm ... how to best code something like
that in K&R 'C' ?

I looked into it briefly. It became eye-glazingly complex
very quickly. I punted and re-designed everything using
sockets. Much simpler - and more portable.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 20:01:12 -0400, c186282 wrote:

COMs are a bit weird for my tastes. Lots of languages have their own
takes on them however.

Hmm ... how to best code something like that in K&R 'C' ?

COM is sort of Microsoft's take on Sun's ONC RPC, which uses XDR for serialization. That's all C. You start with a .x definition file which
defines the data to be passed with C structs. rpcgen used that to create a header and .c file to link into the program.

It's all C data types. Since COM grew from BASIC you wind up with tagged variants and other good stuff.

XDR has its drawbacks too. For one it uses network byte order. That gets a little intense with a LAN with only little-endian machines since you have
a lot of htonl() and ntohl() calles. Secondly it's a C struct. There may
only be data in one field but the entire struct is sent, say 324 bytes of empty space and 9 bytes of data.

There have been attempts to improve RPC with XML-RPC, JSON-RPC, and gRPC.
With JSON and XML you don't have to send empty fields but you have the overhead of the tags.

gRPC is Google's invention. It uses protocol buffers and a interface descriptor language in a .proto file and a tool to create actual code. It smells like XDR to me except you can designate fields as optional.


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On 10/15/25 01:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2025-10-15, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 10/14/25 02:56, rbowman wrote:

The path from DDE to OLE to COM is another one of those evolutions that
could have used some natural selection.

COMs are a bit weird for my tastes. Lots
of languages have their own takes on them
however.

Hmm ... how to best code something like
that in K&R 'C' ?

I looked into it briefly. It became eye-glazingly complex
very quickly. I punted and re-designed everything using
sockets. Much simpler - and more portable.

Much agreed. COMs were kind of a "first try", but
better approaches soon arrived.

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On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 20:01:12 -0400
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Did lots of BASIC programs, but was kind of out of that before it
ever became "visual". Turbo Pascal ... and BASIC went into the bottom
drawer.

However IF you keep it strict and straight you can do very complex
stuff with BASIC and it works as well as lots of other languages.

VB's biggest strength was that it combined a well-known, accessible
language with an extremely straightforward UI builder, and did it some-
thing close to "the right way round," presenting methods as browseable
and editable components of the UI objects they applied to rather than
making you dig through an object definition in a source file in search
of the appropriate callback function.* Especially back in the Bad Old
Days of Win16 programming, it was far and away the simplest way to go
from zero to functioning GUI application...

* (Of course it was defined the usual way in the raw source text, but
the IDE handled things so that you didn't need to bother thinking
about it...mostly.)

...but, unfortunately, the language spec was a little bit of a mess
from the get-go, and only got worse the more stuff they bolted onto it,
plus the runtime was more than a bit buggy :/ Shame, as I still haven't
seen anything in the modern day that offers a comparably simple way to
build GUI programs.

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