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On 2025-09-30 04:00, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:49 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have not been able to locate a video of harvesting lettuce near
here. There is a tractor machine, and people sitting on a wide bench,
collecting them and placing them on a bench. On another part of the
machine, other people cut the bad leaves and bag them, ready for sale
at the supermarket. Maybe they are washed, depends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OilUbKhGD8
I don't recognize that type of lettuce.
I eat it canned, or frozen and boiled. Complete as it comes from the
plant is rare here.
Making corn more digestible involves boiling it with a littlewood
or lye. Found that out from a Speculative Fiction story. Discovered thousandsconverts
of years back by the people who bred the the corn we eat today.
The process makes the niacin in the corn more available and
some of the starch to sugar.
Oh. No idea about the ash. Never heard it.
One small correction: you mentioned rCLpeople run cars on limited alcoholrCY rCo I donrCOt recall that exact element from *Fallen Angels*. It might be conflated with something else, or else that detail is present but less central (or I might be misrCEremembering). The core storyline, though, is
a match with what you described.
DDT killing off vultures did not bother people much, but killing off eagles....
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional
value.
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 09:54:17 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
One small correction: you mentioned rCLpeople run cars on limited alcoholrCY >> rCo I donrCOt recall that exact element from *Fallen Angels*. It might be
conflated with something else, or else that detail is present but less
central (or I might be misrCEremembering). The core storyline, though, is
a match with what you described.
That's the book but I didn't say anything about cars and limited alcohol.
I'll have to reread it since all I remember is the theme of global warming saving humanity from freezing to death. Before global warming global
cooling was the big thing in the '70s.
https://harpers.org/archive/1958/09/the-coming-ice-age/
The problem of living too long is you're seen too many reversals of The Science to believe anything that isn't apparent by stepping out on the
porch.
On 30/09/2025 00:14, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-29, Rich Ulrich wrote:What has CO2 got to do with 'pollution'
On Mon, 29 Sep 2025 18:59:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher[...]
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
- today's climate is 'bad' and getting 'worse'
Pragmatically, Humans continue to add CO2. The easy consequence
(warming) was predicted in the late 1800s. So, yes, while levels of
CO2 continue to go up, we get "climate change" which is disruptive,
plus the long range outcome (200 years) of flooding the cities where
most humans live.
Most discussions ignore the oceans: The surfaces are warming and
becoming more acidic. Reefs are dying. I read a book about the
Sixth Extinction that talkied about oceans.
-2The ocean's dying. Plankton's dying. It's people. Soylent Green is made
out of people. They're making our food out of people.-+
Ending the INCREASE in CO2 is the first step toward REDUCING the
fossil fuel contributions toward zero. Or otherwise removing CO2?
Also, overall improvements to reduce pollution tend to improve quality
of life.
But if you want to know where CO2 deserves condemnation for
"tainting" and kill life directly, rather than its indirect effects
after melting Greenland and Antarctica, read about CO2 turning the
surface waters acidic. That is already measurable and is already
having effects on the life in the oceans (the tiniest flora and
fauna are direly effected, IIRC). The longer-term thread from that
pollution is thus the collapse of ocean food chains. The oceans do
provide quite a bit of food for quite a few people.
On 01/10/25 09:50, Rich Ulrich wrote:
But if you want to know where CO2 deserves condemnation for
"tainting" and kill life directly, rather than its indirect effects
after melting Greenland and Antarctica, read about CO2 turning the
surface waters acidic. That is already measurable and is already
having effects on the life in the oceans (the tiniest flora and
fauna are direly effected, IIRC). The longer-term thread from that
pollution is thus the collapse of ocean food chains. The oceans do
provide quite a bit of food for quite a few people.
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to >solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including >large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea >temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in >other oceans, has a huge momentum.
Even if we stopped all burning of
fossil fuels today (which is politically difficult), ocean temperatures >wouldn't go back to normal for about another century.
On 30/09/2025 07:46, Peter Moylan wrote:
But Australia also has a close association with many Pacific Islands,
and for them there is just one important quality-of-life issue, and
that's sea level rise.
The problem is, there is no sea level rise to speak of.
Other that going on for the last 5000 years.
You are just regurgitating the green myths propagated by the people with
the money who want us all to die of cold after we have handed all our >savings to them for pre processed soya and unreliable renewable energy
----
rCLPeople believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. >Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, onerCOs >agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of >onerCOs suitability to be taken seriously.rCY
Paul Krugman
On 30/09/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
All three like tasty little sheep.
No, no. The words are "All we like sheep".
All of us. Although not necessarily for eating.
I read that "Also ... reduce pollution" comment as going beyond
the CO2 issue, addressing the general problem of achieving
beneficial ends. "Quality of Life" is worth improving - Isn't it?
From your appended note,
" ... onerCOs agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost
a litmus test of onerCOs suitability to be taken seriously.rCY
Paul Krugman
True words. Regardless of how much cynicism to want to apply
to "conventional".
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:36:09 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to
solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including
large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea
temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in
other oceans, has a huge momentum.
I'm trying to open my mind to the metaphor of "momentum"
applying to the rise of temperature of sea water.
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 02:08:30 -0400, Rich Ulrich wrote:
DDT killing off vultures did not bother people much, but killing off
eagles....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/vanishing-vultures-create-burial-crisis-for-bombay-s-parsees-5364937.html
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
What I think I recall is more pessimistic than that -- ocean
temperatures would continue to CLIMB for years. It might be
a century before the air's CO2 drops enough that the waters
BEGIN to go back to normal.
On 01/10/25 12:32, Rich Ulrich wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:36:09 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to
solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including >>> large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea
temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in >>> other oceans, has a huge momentum.
I'm trying to open my mind to the metaphor of "momentum"
applying to the rise of temperature of sea water.
Perhaps "thermal inertia" would have been a better term. The main
relevant factor is that the oceans contain a truly huge amount of water.
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional >>>> value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional >>>>> value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:36:09 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 01/10/25 09:50, Rich Ulrich wrote:
But if you want to know where CO2 deserves condemnation for
"tainting" and kill life directly, rather than its indirect effects
after melting Greenland and Antarctica, read about CO2 turning the
surface waters acidic. That is already measurable and is already
having effects on the life in the oceans (the tiniest flora and
fauna are direly effected, IIRC). The longer-term thread from that
pollution is thus the collapse of ocean food chains. The oceans do
provide quite a bit of food for quite a few people.
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to
solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including
large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea
temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in
other oceans, has a huge momentum.
I'm trying to open my mind to the metaphor of "momentum"
applying to the rise of temperature of sea water.
I've been mulling the Warming for 35 years and there are more
moving pieces to this problem than to most problems.
The present level of atmospheric CO2 is ~428 ppm, more than
50% above the human-history average. If magic stopped all the
"excess" (human-caused) release of CO2, the CO2 level would
drop SLOWLY. Temperatures are not at equilibrium with the solar
input that is captured; oceans will continue to heat up if CO2 stops increasing; oceans will continue to heat up if CO2 starts slowly
dropping.
Even if we stopped all burning of
fossil fuels today (which is politically difficult), ocean temperatures
wouldn't go back to normal for about another century.
What I think I recall is more pessimistic than that -- ocean
temperatures would continue to CLIMB for years. It might be
a century before the air's CO2 drops enough that the waters
BEGIN to go back to normal.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no nutritional >>>>> value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat
the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not >>> know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then do
what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can hope
that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar. Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat
the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-
greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not >>> know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then do
what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can hope
that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar. Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
On 01/10/2025 18:35, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:5 seconds of google reveals that col rizada is spanish for kale.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat
the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-
greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do
not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then
do what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can
hope that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar.
Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar
to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
On 10/1/25 10:35, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat
the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-
greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do
not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then
do what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can
hope that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar.
Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar
to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
-a-a-a-aLook at this one with 25 varieties of Kale.-a Better pictures than the one in
the Wikipedia. <https://americangardener.net/varieties-of-kale/>
-a-a-a-aIt is a varigated plant family and you may see one you recognize.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not
know what is that.
On 2025-10-01 19:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/10/2025 18:35, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:5 seconds of google reveals that col rizada is spanish for kale.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat >>>>>> the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad- >>>>>> greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of >>>>> most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still
do not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then
do what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can
hope that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar.
Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar
to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
Well, DeepL fails to give any translation. Google translate, which I
tend to ignore, this time gives the proper answer.
How to write a question to ask google directly to give that answer
evades me.
On 9/30/25 21:12, rbowman wrote:
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
It repels me as well but i am a creature of habit in dietary matters.
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in Spanish.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:08:57 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not
know what is that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
You're lucky. It became trendy around 20 years ago as a 'superfood'. Maybe it's one of those genetic things but I find it bitter even more than dandelion greens. It's also tough no matter how long you cook it even if
you cut out the central vein. Some people make smoothies out of it. Maybe
if you grind it to a pulp and add bananas, mangoes, lemons, and any other fruit laying around you might have something you can gag down.
https://www.phillymag.com/be-well-philly/2015/01/08/confession-really- really-really-hate-kale/
"ItrCOs to the point that I suspect yourCOre all punking me. Like, everyone is
secretly in on the joke that kale is disgusting, but you pretend itrCOs amazing and delicious just to make me feel bad."
On 2025-10-01, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 9/30/25 21:12, rbowman wrote:
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
It repels me as well but i am a creature of habit in dietary matters.
https://etherwork.net/blog/kale-and-coconut-oil/protip-kalecoconutoil800x530/
On 01/10/25 12:32, Rich Ulrich wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:36:09 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to
solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including >>> large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea
temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in >>> other oceans, has a huge momentum.
I'm trying to open my mind to the metaphor of "momentum"
applying to the rise of temperature of sea water.
Perhaps "thermal inertia" would have been a better term. The main
relevant factor is that the oceans contain a truly huge amount of water.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:08:57 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not
know what is that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
You're lucky. It became trendy around 20 years ago as a 'superfood'. Maybe it's one of those genetic things but I find it bitter even more than dandelion greens. It's also tough no matter how long you cook it even if
you cut out the central vein. Some people make smoothies out of it. Maybe
if you grind it to a pulp and add bananas, mangoes, lemons, and any other fruit laying around you might have something you can gag down.
https://www.phillymag.com/be-well-philly/2015/01/08/confession-really- really-really-hate-kale/
"ItrCOs to the point that I suspect yourCOre all punking me. Like, everyone is
secretly in on the joke that kale is disgusting, but you pretend itrCOs amazing and delicious just to make me feel bad."
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 15:01:11 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 01/10/25 12:32, Rich Ulrich wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:36:09 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
South Australia currently has a big problem that it doesn't know how to >>>> solve. An algal bloom along the coastline is killing sea life, including >>>> large fish species, and beaches are being covered with dead fish. The
fishing industry is under threat. The problem is caused by rising sea
temperatures. That phenomenon, which has also become very noticeeable in >>>> other oceans, has a huge momentum.
I'm trying to open my mind to the metaphor of "momentum"
applying to the rise of temperature of sea water.
Perhaps "thermal inertia" would have been a better term. The main
relevant factor is that the oceans contain a truly huge amount of water.
There's an enormous amount of water, but most of it is DEEP.
AI Overview
How does the temperature of ocean water vary? - NOAA Ocean ...
Ocean water is generally cold below the sunlit surface layers,
with a rapid temperature drop occurring around a few hundred
meters (less than a thousand meters) within the thermocline, and
remaining cold (around 4-#C or 39-#F) at depths below 1,000 meters.
This deep cold water originates from dense, salty water formed by
freezing in polar regions that sinks and spreads across the ocean
floor.
I expect that the layer that is getting more acidic is thinner than
the layer that is warmer, but I don't know of data about that.
One implication is that "ocean warming" does not affect the great
depths and enormous volume, so it is *relatively* rapid.
What makes me feel that scientists should talk about the future
with a little bit of humility is that the study of underwater currents
is just decades old and does not pretend to be authoritative.
There must be at least a tiny chance that the COLD water of
the deeps might start playing a bigger role, say, after the Gulf
Stream is diverted by the cold fresh waters pouring from Greenland.
What the scientist warn is mostly valid as warnings, but the
science of warming and climate change is not nailed down.
Broccoli I like.
On 2025-10-01 19:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
5 seconds of google reveals that col rizada is spanish for kale.
Well, DeepL fails to give any translation. Google translate, which I
tend to ignore, this time gives the proper answer.
How to write a question to ask google directly to give that answer
evades me.
On 10/1/25 11:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
How to write a question to ask google directly to give that answerIt is hard to figure out sometimes even with my vast English
evades me.
language vocabulary how exactly to ask a question of DuckDuckGo but I
keep at it until i find some measure of satisfaction. Very
persistent hair-splitter.
bliss
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in
Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not. There is an Irish dish which is mostly
mashed potatoes and cabbage. I've seen recipes that use kale but I have a feeling it's a translation problem with 'col'.
https://www.thespanishchef.com/recipes/red-cabbage
There is a very similar German recipe, Rotkohl. Warning: I think the
vinegar acts as sort of a mordant and you tend to wind up with purple
teeth. Also, in contact with iron utensils it sometimes develops an
alarming shade of green but it's only the anthocyanin reacting to the pH.
What the scientist warn is mostly valid as warnings,
but the science of warming and climate change is not nailed down.
"ItrCOs to the point that I suspect yourCOre all punking me. Like,
everyone is
secretly in on the joke that kale is disgusting, but you pretend itrCOs
amazing and delicious just to make me feel bad."
Ok, I am not tempted to try it Efye
Broccoli I like.
No but there is heat exhange between the surface and the depths and
not all the deep water is that cold. Think about the volcanic vents
at depth providing enough chemical energy to sustain life. Look up
Haline circulation and realize the the ecology of the Southern waters
around Anartica is being disrupted. The sea ice that ringed that
continent over the sea waters is or has already melted. The negative
effects on the krill have already been noted in scientific
oceangraphic publications.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 22:05:15 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Broccoli I like.
Broccoli is definitely edible in many forms. My brother detested it and
saw a upside of being on rat poison (warfarin) that he could pass it up without his wife nagging. He said the only thing he agreed with Bush I on
was broccoli sucked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush_broccoli_comments
On 2025-10-02 06:29, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 22:05:15 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Broccoli I like.
Broccoli is definitely edible in many forms. My brother detested it and
saw a upside of being on rat poison (warfarin) that he could pass it up
without his wife nagging. He said the only thing he agreed with Bush I on
was broccoli sucked.
I have a friend that hates the smell of boiling cauliflower, so probably broccoli as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush_broccoli_comments
LOL. The president saying he hates broccoli, and disgusting the farmers, then sales increasing in supermarkets.
I guess the current tenant is way worse, can't stay silent.
On 01/10/2025 19:19, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 10/1/25 11:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
How to write a question to ask google directly to give that answerIt is hard to figure out sometimes even with my vast English language
-aevades me.
vocabulary how exactly to ask a question of DuckDuckGo but I
keep at it until i find some measure of satisfaction.-a Very
persistent hair-splitter.
bliss
I guess typing in 'what is the Spanish for kale' was beyond you too?
On 2025-10-02 12:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/10/2025 19:19, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 10/1/25 11:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
How to write a question to ask google directly to give that answerIt is hard to figure out sometimes even with my vast English language
-aevades me.
vocabulary how exactly to ask a question of DuckDuckGo but I
keep at it until i find some measure of satisfaction.-a Very
persistent hair-splitter.
bliss
I guess typing in 'what is the Spanish for kale' was beyond you too?
Couldn't you phrase it politely instead?
No, it just did not occur to me.
On 10/1/25 10:35, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat
the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad-
greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of
most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do not >>>> know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then do
what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can hope
that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar. Catal|i >> probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
Look at this one with 25 varieties of Kale. Better pictures than the one in
the Wikipedia. <https://americangardener.net/varieties-of-kale/>
It is a varigated plant family and you may see one you recognize.
bliss
On 2025-10-01 19:52, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 10/1/25 10:35, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-01 14:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-01 06:12, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:44:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>
On 30/09/2025 21:32, rbowman wrote:
Iceberg or crisphead is the most popular and has almost no
nutritional
value.
We all eat far too much 'nutritional value' as it is.
Lettuce has water and fibre and some useful minerals.
So does the assorted grass and weeds out in the lawn. The deer eat >>>>>> the grass;I eat the deer. Or, to be specific, tonight I'm eating
part of a cow.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/best-salad- >>>>>> greens-for-your-health.aspx
I draw the line at kale. I've never found a way to make it edible.
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names of >>>>> most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I still do >>>>> not
know what is that.
The article doesn't even have photos!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
Sure, I did that. I did not recognize the plant on the photo. I then
do what I always do, click on the "languages" drop list, to open the
Spanish wikipedia article, which would have the Spanish name of the
plant. But... there are 47 translations and none in Spanish! I can
hope that the Portuguese, Catal|i, French, Italian article is similar.
Catal|i probably is. "Col verda" So probably "Col verde". Not familiar
to me.
But there are several other plants in the given link, I would have to
repeat the investigation for each one.
-a-a-a-aLook at this one with 25 varieties of Kale.-a Better pictures than >> the one in
the Wikipedia. <https://americangardener.net/varieties-of-kale/>
-a-a-a-aIt is a varigated plant family and you may see one you recognize.
I'm not sure.
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in Spanish.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in
Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not.
On 01/10/2025 19:32, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in
Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not. There is an Irish dish which is mostly
mashed potatoes and cabbage. I've seen recipes that use kale but I have a
feeling it's a translation problem with 'col'.
https://www.thespanishchef.com/recipes/red-cabbage
There is a very similar German recipe, Rotkohl. Warning: I think the
vinegar acts as sort of a mordant and you tend to wind up with purple
teeth. Also, in contact with iron utensils it sometimes develops an
alarming shade of green but it's only the anthocyanin reacting to the pH.
Red cabbage with apple in sweet and sour vinegar with cinnamon and
cloves is brilliant with venison, duck or goose.
I make a batch every autumn and freeze it.
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:08:57 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names
of most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I
still do not know what is that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
You're lucky. It became trendy around 20 years ago as a 'superfood'.
Maybe it's one of those genetic things but I find it bitter even more
than dandelion greens. It's also tough no matter how long you cook
it even if you cut out the central vein. Some people make smoothies
out of it. Maybe if you grind it to a pulp and add bananas, mangoes, lemons, and any other fruit laying around you might have something
you can gag down.
https://www.phillymag.com/be-well-philly/2015/01/08/confession-really- really-really-hate-kale/
"ItrCOs to the point that I suspect yourCOre all punking me. Like,
everyone is secretly in on the joke that kale is disgusting, but you
pretend itrCOs amazing and delicious just to make me feel bad."
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in
Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not.
Well, Kale is edible (in that humans /can/ eat it, at least the
varieties sold in the grocery stores). But compared to cabbage it is
not at all palatable (almost to the point where one would choose not to
eat it for reasons of taste).
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:08:57 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have trouble understanding that article. I don't know the names
of most plants in Spanish. Kale is probably "col verde", but I
still do not know what is that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale
You're lucky. It became trendy around 20 years ago as a 'superfood'.
Maybe it's one of those genetic things but I find it bitter even more
than dandelion greens. It's also tough no matter how long you cook
it even if you cut out the central vein. Some people make smoothies
out of it. Maybe if you grind it to a pulp and add bananas, mangoes,
lemons, and any other fruit laying around you might have something
you can gag down.
https://www.phillymag.com/be-well-philly/2015/01/08/confession-really-
really-really-hate-kale/
"ItrCOs to the point that I suspect yourCOre all punking me. Like,
everyone is secretly in on the joke that kale is disgusting, but you
pretend itrCOs amazing and delicious just to make me feel bad."
Boiled, and with some vinegar (which likely offsets the bitterness) it becomes "just barely palatable".
I had to choke down enough of it 40+ some years ago when my parents
would plant it in their garden over the summer.
I don't think I've had any in the last 40 years, and I'm not interested
in picking any up at the grocery for myself either.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/10/2025 19:32, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Red cabbage with apple in sweet and sour vinegar with cinnamon and
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name in
Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not. There is an Irish dish which is mostly
mashed potatoes and cabbage. I've seen recipes that use kale but I have a >>> feeling it's a translation problem with 'col'.
https://www.thespanishchef.com/recipes/red-cabbage
There is a very similar German recipe, Rotkohl. Warning: I think the
vinegar acts as sort of a mordant and you tend to wind up with purple
teeth. Also, in contact with iron utensils it sometimes develops an
alarming shade of green but it's only the anthocyanin reacting to the pH. >>
cloves is brilliant with venison, duck or goose.
I make a batch every autumn and freeze it.
That sounds interesting. Care to share the recipie for the mixture?
On 27 Sep 2025 13:22:33 GMT
St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
sometimes coincidence
or shared linguistic heritage hands you an easy one,
Of course, French, Italian and Spanish are closely related to each
other. English is related even if less closely. But Japanese and
Chinese aren't. So sometimes, a translation from French to Spanish
would be easy. From french to English would be more difficult and
from French to Japanese or Chinese would be impossible.
Even in very different languages, translators can get lucky.
There's an
early storyline in Ranma 1/2 where the female lead's hair gets sheared
off during a fight between two of the other characters, and the author
got in a shameless pun on "kega wa nakute" (she wasn't injured) and "ke
ga nakunatta" (she lost her hair.) The staff for the English release, happily, were able to preserve it:
"At least she wasn't injured."
"Yeah, but she sure got a bad cut!"
Le 29-09-2025, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> a |-crit-a:
On 27 Sep 2025 13:22:33 GMT
St|-phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
sometimes coincidence
or shared linguistic heritage hands you an easy one,
Of course, French, Italian and Spanish are closely related to each
other. English is related even if less closely. But Japanese and
Chinese aren't. So sometimes, a translation from French to Spanish
would be easy. From french to English would be more difficult and
from French to Japanese or Chinese would be impossible.
Even in very different languages, translators can get lucky.
Of course. I'm not saying that never happens, I'm saying that the
further apart the languages are, the most difficult the translation
becomes. But if there is a lucky possibility, the translator can enjoy
using it.
But it's not enough to be lucky, it needs to be able to spot it too.
That's why I said that the translation of the joke from Pulp Fiction was brilliant. The translator had to find the right joke. The translator was lucky joke exist but was brilliant to find it.
There's an
early storyline in Ranma 1/2 where the female lead's hair gets sheared
off during a fight between two of the other characters, and the author
got in a shameless pun on "kega wa nakute" (she wasn't injured) and "ke
ga nakunatta" (she lost her hair.) The staff for the English release,
happily, were able to preserve it:
"At least she wasn't injured."
"Yeah, but she sure got a bad cut!"
Yes. As I said, it needs luck to have the possibility and it needs to be
good to be able to find it.
On 03/10/2025 18:03, Rich wrote:recipes-to-freeze/traditional-braised-red-cabbage-with-apples
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:You pretty much have it.
On 01/10/2025 19:32, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of the name
in Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not. There is an Irish dish which is
mostly mashed potatoes and cabbage. I've seen recipes that use kale
but I have a feeling it's a translation problem with 'col'.
https://www.thespanishchef.com/recipes/red-cabbage
There is a very similar German recipe, Rotkohl. Warning: I think the
vinegar acts as sort of a mordant and you tend to wind up with purple
teeth. Also, in contact with iron utensils it sometimes develops an
alarming shade of green but it's only the anthocyanin reacting to the
pH.
Red cabbage with apple in sweet and sour vinegar with cinnamon and
cloves is brilliant with venison, duck or goose.
I make a batch every autumn and freeze it.
That sounds interesting. Care to share the recipie for the mixture?
If you like am authorized version this one looks pretty good. I don't
often put garlic or nutmeg in mine
https://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/occasions/christmas/christmas-100-
On Sat, 4 Oct 2025 07:58:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:recipes-to-freeze/traditional-braised-red-cabbage-with-apples
On 03/10/2025 18:03, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:You pretty much have it.
On 01/10/2025 19:32, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2025 20:12:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Very probably I have eaten "cabbage" which shares part of
the name in Spanish.
Cabbage is edible, kale is not. There is an Irish dish which
is mostly mashed potatoes and cabbage. I've seen recipes that
use kale but I have a feeling it's a translation problem with
'col'.
https://www.thespanishchef.com/recipes/red-cabbage
There is a very similar German recipe, Rotkohl. Warning: I
think the vinegar acts as sort of a mordant and you tend to
wind up with purple teeth. Also, in contact with iron
utensils it sometimes develops an alarming shade of green but
it's only the anthocyanin reacting to the pH.
Red cabbage with apple in sweet and sour vinegar with cinnamon
and cloves is brilliant with venison, duck or goose.
I make a batch every autumn and freeze it.
That sounds interesting. Care to share the recipie for the
mixture?
If you like am authorized version this one looks pretty good. I
don't often put garlic or nutmeg in mine
https://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/occasions/christmas/christmas-100-
https://platedcravings.com/german-red-cabbage/
The German version is similar. Rather than butter I use bacon
because anything goes better with bacon.
One difference is the juniper berries. They show up in many German
recipes including sauerkraut and sauerbraten. A couple of local
markets have them in the bulk spices section or you can go find a
juniper.
Getting hungry. I see a potful in the near future.
You are just regurgitating the green myths propagated by the people with
the money who want us all to die of cold after we have handed all our savings to them for pre processed soya and unreliable renewable energy
On 2025-09-27 17:03, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 22-09-2025, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a |-crit-a:
On 2025-09-21 19:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/09/2025 18:28, rbowman wrote:
I'm not fond of kings but an enlightened ruler might not be worse than a >>>>> bunch of self-serving politicians doing the will of the highest bidder. >>>>TBH there is very little difference.
The only thing about kings is that you can't vote them out, They need to >>>> be murdered.
Yes, they can be voted out.
King Alfonso XIII of Spain was voted out, the republicans won the vote.
A bit controversial this point, though, but the fact is that he
consequently fled the country voluntarily. There were no hordes trying
to kill him or whatever, he left more or less silently.
The murdering came when the military and the right wing made war to
remove the II Republic and put a dictatorship.
I think there was another instance previously of an ousted king or
queen, but I don't recall the details. No murdering, either.
And in a country close to yours, a revolution was done in a very good
way. Of course, I'm not speaking about France in which I'm happy to live
without a king but I can't say that the way the revolution was done was
good. I'm speaking about your other neighbour which should inspire more
people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution :-)
What I mean is: even if most revolutions are spreading blood, it's not a
requirement.
I don't know if The Spanish Transition is a revolution or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. Arguably the transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no bullets. We
had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all directly related
to The Transition.
In article <10bg79b$3ielt$4
@dont-email.me>,
tnp@invalid.invalid says...
You are just regurgitating the green myths propagated by the people with
the money who want us all to die of cold after we have handed all our
savings to them for pre processed soya and unreliable renewable energy
I'm pretty sure they don't
want us to die. Who would
serve them? Rulers need
someone to rule.
Melissa
I don't know if The Spanish Transition is a revolution or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. Arguably
the transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no
bullets. We had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all
directly related to The Transition.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
I don't know if The Spanish Transition is a revolution or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. Arguably
the transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no
bullets. We had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all
directly related to The Transition.
Not quite without bullets I think? Tejero fired off a few rounds...
You could argue that the coup attempts were separate events from the transition, but I donrCOt think thatrCOs really sustainable; I think they were some of those rCydefectsrCO and that their failure was what made it clear that democracy was here to stay in Spain.
Le 28-09-2025, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a |-crit-a:
On 2025-09-27 17:03, St|-phane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 22-09-2025, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a |-crit-a:
On 2025-09-21 19:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/09/2025 18:28, rbowman wrote:
I'm not fond of kings but an enlightened ruler might not be worse than a >>>>>> bunch of self-serving politicians doing the will of the highest bidder. >>>>>TBH there is very little difference.
The only thing about kings is that you can't vote them out, They need to >>>>> be murdered.
Yes, they can be voted out.
King Alfonso XIII of Spain was voted out, the republicans won the vote. >>>> A bit controversial this point, though, but the fact is that he
consequently fled the country voluntarily. There were no hordes trying >>>> to kill him or whatever, he left more or less silently.
The murdering came when the military and the right wing made war to
remove the II Republic and put a dictatorship.
I think there was another instance previously of an ousted king or
queen, but I don't recall the details. No murdering, either.
And in a country close to yours, a revolution was done in a very good
way. Of course, I'm not speaking about France in which I'm happy to live >>> without a king but I can't say that the way the revolution was done was
good. I'm speaking about your other neighbour which should inspire more
people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution :-)
Yep. It's really impressive.
What I mean is: even if most revolutions are spreading blood, it's not a >>> requirement.
I don't know if The Spanish Transition is a revolution or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. Arguably the
transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no bullets. We
had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all directly related
to The Transition.
OK, so before answering that, I have to say two thing to avoid any misunderstanding.
First, I'm neither an historian nor a specialist. So when I say that I
never heard about something it just means that: it can have happened
without my knowledge. I'm interested in history, and I can see were all
of the far right who pretend history are wrong because they know only a
part of the history. So I have some knowledge and, of course, I knew
what happened in Spain, but I'm not an historian. There are not hidden
words pretending that anyone claiming that if someone pretend that
something I never heard of happened is a liar. And I'm only speaking
about my visions: historians can see things differently.
Second, when I say that something is different, there is no value
judgment here. I don't mean one is better than the other, I'm only
saying that there are different things.
Keep that in mind because to start with, I consider that what happened
in Spain is very different of what happened in Portugal. In Portugal,
there was a dictator and people throw him away without (almost) no
violence. In Spain, when the dictator died, the void was filled with a
better way to manage things, so, for me, it's not the same thing.
It was great too, because there is nothing obvious with that. For
example, when Stalin died, he was replaced by Khrouchtchev, so the
dictature continued. And, to my knowledge, the replacement from one
dictator to another one is fairly well spread when I never heard about another example of a democracy put in place after the death of a
dictator. I'm not speaking of the death of Hitler because the USA and
USSR took control of Germany, so that's why what happened in Spain is
unique.
And that has been done in a very good and inspiring way. But still, I
have difficulties to consider it a revolution. What happened in Spain
and in Portugal were, to my knowledge and to my vision of things, unique
in their own ways. In Portugal, it was a evolution because they decided
to change things at the time were they considered it must happen. In
Spain, they took advantage of the events to change things and, for me,
it's something different.
And on that part, I wasn't alive when the French revolution took place
but from what I know about it, it was ugly and it lasted for decades. So
if I consider it to be a good thing I don't consider it to have been
done in a good way. I'm not saying I would have done better, I wasn't
born so it's easy to look at it with a critical eye today, so I'm not
too harsh for that reason, but I can't be happy about everything that happened for obvious reasons neither.
On 2025-10-05 11:34, Richard Kettlewell wrote:[...]
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. ArguablyNot quite without bullets I think? Tejero fired off a few rounds...
the transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no
bullets. We had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all
directly related to The Transition.
Yes. AFAIR did not hit anyone.
You could argue that the coup attempts were separate events from the
transition, but I donrCOt think thatrCOs really sustainable; I think they
were some of those rCydefectsrCO and that their failure was what made it
clear that democracy was here to stay in Spain.
It is a part of the process.
GRAPO is included in the European Union's list of terrorist
organisations.[5]
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
On 2025-10-05 11:34, Richard Kettlewell wrote:[...]
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. ArguablyNot quite without bullets I think? Tejero fired off a few rounds...
the transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no
bullets. We had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all
directly related to The Transition.
Yes. AFAIR did not hit anyone.
You could argue that the coup attempts were separate events from the
transition, but I donrCOt think thatrCOs really sustainable; I think they >>> were some of those rCydefectsrCO and that their failure was what made it >>> clear that democracy was here to stay in Spain.
It is a part of the process.
GRAPO is included in the European Union's list of terrorist
organisations.[5]
Thankyou, interesting details.
ETA was widely reported in the UK, but I donrCOt think IrCOd ever heard of GRAPO before. Possibly their activities had died down by the time I
started paying attention to the news (some time in the 1980s).
An ETA member turned out to be living locally a few years ago, and was arrested by the UK police.