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You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:23:03 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately mis-
tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of getting
stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but sometimes
white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that it's ever been off
road or hauled a work load. Sort of like the pimped-out Hummer in the closing credits of the movie _Cars_.
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.
I somewhat sympathise
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberatelyAh Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clevel by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report straight to the Soylent plant.
My oh my. A Libral environmentalist!
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 21:53:27 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My oh my. A Libral environmentalist!
No, just someone who has to deal with assholes dumping smoke on me
during the commute because it makes them feel better about their
crippling insecurity.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 21:53:27 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My oh my. A Libral environmentalist!
No, just someone who has to deal with assholes dumping smoke on me
during the commute because it makes them feel better about their
crippling insecurity.
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was
about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine.-a I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
-a-a-a-aThen you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
-a-a-a-aAs for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius.-a He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco.-a He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
-a-a-a-abliss
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to that a
fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was
about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to that a
fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Hydrogen bomb? One of the companies I worked for produced aircraft strobe lights among other products. They were quartz glass which requires a
hydrogen flame for blowing where soda glass only needs oxyacetylene.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The tube composition has improved since the early '70s and the allowable pressure for transport has increased but the actual weight of the hydrogen was a fraction of the weight of the tube trailer. That's the problem for hydrogen,
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection...
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
We have three phase on the power poles on the four lane road
near my residential street. This does NOT mean the utility agrees
to EVER run those three phases, up one of our side streets.
Not going to happen. They can barely keep our power tipped upright
right now as it is. They only have a limited budget for capacity
expansion (they've improved the main feed coming into the city,
but not any local facilities at all).
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW so
no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clevel by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report straight to the Soylent plant.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On 2025-08-27 17:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.
Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker ....
or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
Centre.
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
It is different.
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
On 27/08/2025 19:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:It's been all three AFAICR., Like-a the UK used to be 240V and really
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
mostly still is but to 'harmonise' with the EU it's quoted as 230V -#5% which mainly covers the range...
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine.-a I would prefer to that a >>> fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Hydrogen bomb? One of the companies I worked for produced aircraft strobe
lights among other products. They were quartz glass which requires a
hydrogen flame for blowing where soda glass only needs oxyacetylene.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents
but we
needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
:-}
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The tube composition has improved since the early '70s and the allowable
pressure for transport has increased but the actual weight of the
hydrogen
was a fraction of the weight of the tube trailer. That's the problem for
hydrogen,
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as gasoline.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every little
bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run in front
of it.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as gasoline.
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards, maybe.
We have three phase on the power poles on the four lane road near my residential street. This does NOT mean the utility agrees to EVER run
those three phases, up one of our side streets.
Not going to happen. They can barely keep our power tipped upright right
now as it is. They only have a limited budget for capacity expansion
(they've improved the main feed coming into the city, but not any local facilities at all).
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
Which third-world country is this?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V Not sure where the
grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On 2025-08-27 22:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
I have not investigated.
Gasoline in Europe is heavily taxed. Google says the litre of gasoline
in California is about re41.15/litre, while here it is about re41.50/litre. We still win.
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,You know the environment is where people and everything people
so they charge a lot; the maximum they can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
How about the costs of destroying the environment?
On 8/27/25 13:19, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 22:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
veryThe problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be
thatexpensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California?-a I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest.-a But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations.-a It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
I have not investigated.
Gasoline in Europe is heavily taxed. Google says the litre of gasoline
in California is about re41.15/litre, while here it is about re41.50/litre.
We still win.
-a-a-a-aI really doubt it is a contest.-a The contest is to get rid of pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer.-a Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere.-a Our gas in California
is taxed as well.-a A problem with electrically powered vehicles not using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which are
derived from the Gas taxes.
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,-a-a-a-aYou know the environment is where people and everything people depend upon can live?
so they charge a lot; the maximum they can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
-a-a-a How about the costs of destroying the environment?
-a-a-a-aLike the foolish living creature put into a pot of cold water thinks it
is fine as the pot begins to heat up and then it is too late, people living in a warming climate think it is ok until the heat is too much, first for
the crops they depend upon. then for the animals both the ones they
eat and the animals they love and finally for the people whether or
not they wanted to reduce their particular cost of living.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 20:42:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the >>>> house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
119.4 today :)
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2023/03/standard-voltage-levels-in- us.html
"Good to Know: Beginning in the 1920s, 110V was the standard. This
gradually increased to 115V in the 1930s and then 117V in the 1950s, but
was rapidly replaced by 120V in the 1960s. The National Electrical Code
(NEC) officially declared 120V as the standard voltage in the 1968 and
1984 editions."
The generating plants didn't increase the voltage uniformly and what
people called it changed even slower. I'm old enough that it was called
110. If you really want to know what it is, stick a meter on the socket.
If they fiddle with the voltage too much you have a brownout. Most things
can handle 110 - 125.
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been >>>> more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was >>> about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
You do not transport it to the refueling station but generatehydrogen
at the refueling station using clean electricity to hydrolize water.
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,
so they charge a lot; the maximum the can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid ofpollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
On 27/08/2025 21:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the Midwest.
But the point is that electrical cars produce less pollution not that
they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why gasoline is more
expensive in California because we demand less polluting fuel
formulations. It only helps a little but every little
bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run in front
of it.
bless! A born aqain Green!
And in the San Francisco Bay Area we have some commutes that are
80-100 miles each way. Back in the 1960s we had people who rode the bus
from Sacramento to San Francisco then had a rented room until the end of their work week when they commuted via bus again back to the Sacramento
area. Now a days they are driving or riding commuter trains from other
places in the Central Valley.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards, maybe.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate.-a Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report
straight to the Soylent plant.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been >>>>> more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was >>>> about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
house on fire.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:19:05 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,
so they charge a lot; the maximum the can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
The green industries in the US have been heavily subsidized by the federal and state governments so it's difficult to unravel the true costs although some are being phased out.
https://www.cpr.org/2023/08/04/colorado-electric-vehicle-discounts-guide/
In other words, the state picks Smith's pocket and gives the money to
Jones to promote their vision. No surprise, since that's how government works in all cases.
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
-a the batteries
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
On 28/08/2025 10:19, Nuno Silva wrote:
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right
because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
No, not because its seen as environment friendly, but because it
actually isn't. It's all part of a Great Libral Green Boondoggle where everyone signals their virtue, and fills their boots, everything gets
more expensive and CO2 emissions keep rising, regardless
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
-a-a the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then trying to collect the money.
On 2025-08-28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 10:19, Nuno Silva wrote:
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right
because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
No, not because its seen as environment friendly, but because it
actually isn't. It's all part of a Great Libral Green Boondoggle where
everyone signals their virtue, and fills their boots, everything gets
more expensive and CO2 emissions keep rising, regardless
I could have worded it better because you just proved the point I wanted
to make. I meant things far-right puts under that umbrella, even if they themselves say it's not environmental-friendly. It suffices that they
see it as something they claim *someone else* is pushing because of environmental-friendliness.
It doesn't need to be considered environmental-friendly by any of the
parts.
Sorry for the bad wording.
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
-a-a the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
-a Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
-a better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
-a bench and into real production ? That's been
-a the prob for 20 years now.
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:split??
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.-a Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
-a USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience -
-a the electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot
-a wires and a neutral. Ground is also a wire but does not
-a come in from the utility, gotta drive a rod 20' into the
-a literal ground nearby.
-a Both hots to neutral = 120v
-a Between the hots, 240v
-a MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers
-a on most circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves
-a and A/C units run on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder
-a units, that's 240v/50a.
-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a than 240v.
-a 120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
-a I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances,
-a worked on 120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though,
-a really sparky armature contacts. Hey, where do you think
-a AC/DC got its name - a sister of one of the group saw
-a that on an appliance. NOT quite the same meaning it came
-a to have in the USA however-a :-)
-a USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v,
-a 240v or 480v between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to
-a the neutral from any hot wire is half the hot voltage.
-a Wired up a lot of industrial-sized panels with that.
-a (hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I also
-a became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller
-a orgs !). SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and
-a ground, naught but hots, so beware.
-a Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that
-a connection tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a
-a 'safety' feature,-a not meant to channel a lot of amps.
-a SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the
-a best practice IMHO, they really have somewhat different
-a purposes. Both 'neutral' and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE.
-a 'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always
-a guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE to the
-a hot wires.
-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate.-a Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report
straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
-a Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
-a blow to the general left/right side, often with a
-a heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
-a Too many forget Soylent Green ...
-a Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
-a often forgotten.
-a But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
-a of the obsolete billions hmm ?-a :-)
-a "Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
-a Hey, just follow the logic, how it will, MUST, go.--
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
-a The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
-a of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
-a house on fire. Also quasi-wars now over the rare
-a earths needed for the motors - why do you think
-a Trump wants Greenland ? Why China is willing to
-a smash the world tech economy over those minerals ?
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply
and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we
also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as >>> gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging
station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
On 28/08/2025 11:15, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
-a-a the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
-a-a Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
-a-a better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
-a-a bench and into real production ? That's been
-a-a the prob for 20 years now.
All heavier than lithium...
..do your inorganic chemistry homework...if they were so fucking great
we would all be using them already
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle, you
can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets
provide over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for
lighting. Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v
Mains. Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the
Cooker .... or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run
Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience - the
electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot wires and a
neutral.
Ground is also a wire but does not come in from the utility,
gotta drive a rod 20' into the literal ground nearby.
Both hots to neutral = 120v
Between the hots, 240v
MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers on most
circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves and A/C units run
on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder units, that's 240v/50a.
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but beware
cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga to save a few bucks.
On the plus, 120v is less dangerous than 240v.
120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances, worked on
120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though, really sparky
armature contacts. Hey, where do you think AC/DC got its name
- a sister of one of the group saw that on an appliance. NOT quite
the same meaning it came to have in the USA however :-)
USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v, 240v or 480v
between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to the neutral from any hot
wire is half the hot voltage. Wired up a lot of industrial-sized
panels with that. (hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I
also became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller orgs !).
SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and ground, naught but hots, so
beware.
Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that connection
tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a 'safety' feature, not
meant to channel a lot of amps.
SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the best practice
IMHO, they really have somewhat different purposes. Both 'neutral'
and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE. 'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE
to the hot wires.
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you only connect the
ground on ONE end because over some hundreds or thousands of feet the
value of 'ground' is DIFFERENT.
Large, albeit low voltage, currents can be obtained from separated--
grounds. Always thought that might be exploited somehow.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:46:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards,
maybe.
Generic blow to whichever part of the head is convenient.
"Yo doan shut yo mouf Ima gonna hit you upside the haid'
On 2025-08-28 07:16, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate.-a Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of >>>>>> getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around >>>> you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report >>>> straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
-a-a Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
-a-a blow to the general left/right side, often with a
-a-a heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
-a-a Too many forget Soylent Green ...
I don't. Although for many years I did not know how to write it.
-a-a Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
-a-a often forgotten.
-a-a But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
-a-a of the obsolete billions hmm ?-a :-)
-a-a "Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
Uuuck.
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all.-a Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.
Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker ....
or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
-a-a USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience -
-a-a the electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot
-a-a wires and a neutral. Ground is also a wire but does not
-a-a come in from the utility, gotta drive a rod 20' into the
-a-a literal ground nearby.
-a-a Both hots to neutral = 120v
-a-a Between the hots, 240v
-a-a MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers
-a-a on most circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves
-a-a and A/C units run on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder
-a-a units, that's 240v/50a.
-a-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a-a than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
-a-a 120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
-a-a I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances,
-a-a worked on 120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though,
-a-a really sparky armature contacts. Hey, where do you think
-a-a AC/DC got its name - a sister of one of the group saw
-a-a that on an appliance. NOT quite the same meaning it came
-a-a to have in the USA however-a :-)
-a-a USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v,
-a-a 240v or 480v between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to
-a-a the neutral from any hot wire is half the hot voltage.
-a-a Wired up a lot of industrial-sized panels with that.
-a-a (hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I also
-a-a became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller
-a-a orgs !). SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and
-a-a ground, naught but hots, so beware.
-a-a Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that
-a-a connection tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a
-a-a 'safety' feature,-a not meant to channel a lot of amps.
-a-a SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the
-a-a best practice IMHO, they really have somewhat different
-a-a purposes. Both 'neutral' and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE.
-a-a 'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always
-a-a guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE to the
-a-a hot wires.
-a-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure enough,
the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the voltage at
the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A subproduct of the
PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
-a-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply
and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we
also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
On 2025-08-28 04:22, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
...
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
-a-a The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
-a-a of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
-a-a house on fire. Also quasi-wars now over the rare
-a-a earths needed for the motors - why do you think
-a-a Trump wants Greenland ? Why China is willing to
-a-a smash the world tech economy over those minerals ?
Depends on your distances.
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
There are truckers in the EU with battery powered trucks, and they make
do just fine.
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!! >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
On 28/08/2025 9:35 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street
giving 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial
supply and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral.
Then we also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
SSSSSHHH!! Nobodies supposed to know that, are they??
(Usually the main Power Fuse board, I think)
On 2025-08-28 13:16, Daniel70 wrote:
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as
expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging >>> station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways.
e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government
Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural
Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
With a GPS.
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
On 28/08/2025 9:38 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 07:16, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate.-a Not a single sign that >>>>>>>> it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately >>>>>>> mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of >>>>>>> getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around >>>>> you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and
report
straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
-a-a Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
-a-a blow to the general left/right side, often with a
-a-a heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
-a-a Too many forget Soylent Green ...
I don't. Although for many years I did not know how to write it.
-a-a Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
-a-a often forgotten.
-a-a But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
-a-a of the obsolete billions hmm ?-a :-)
-a-a "Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
Uuuck.
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
On 28/08/2025 9:35 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street
giving 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial
supply and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral.
Then we also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
SSSSSHHH!! Nobodies supposed to know that, are they??
(Usually the main Power Fuse board, I think)
On 8/28/25 7:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 11:15, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
-a-a the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits,
and its the best metal there is
-a-a Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
-a-a better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
-a-a bench and into real production ? That's been
-a-a the prob for 20 years now.
All heavier than lithium...
..do your inorganic chemistry homework...if they were so fucking great
we would all be using them already
-a Don't think the weight is the big factor here, if
-a "better" you could have FEWER - same or less weight.
-a The problems mostly seem to revolve around the chemistry--
-a and electrode erosion. SOME recent reports say that may
-a have been fixed. However, as said, "lab bench" results
-a do NOT necessarily equate to "production line". THAT
-a has been a repeating story for 20+ years.
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water
and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and surrounding Ground.
On 28/08/2025 6:57 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:46:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Is that Rocky talking now?? ;-P
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
upwards,
maybe.
Generic blow to whichever part of the head is convenient.
"Yo doan shut yo mouf Ima gonna hit you upside the haid'
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
On 8/28/25 8:25 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 13:16, Daniel70 wrote:
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as
expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public
charging
station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the >>>> cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the >>>> best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-
vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The
Government Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was
last service and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based
on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural
Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
With a GPS.
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
-a How Orwellian !
-a Buy an antique car or build yourself a custom !
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
-a-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a-a than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
-a Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
-a If building a brand new house now I'd insist
-a on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
-a Very worth the slight extra expense.
-a A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
-a on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
-a do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
-a don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
-a envelopes full of cash too.
-a My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
-a the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
-a and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
-a conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
-a old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
-a corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
-a and did live there for a few years.
-a-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected
a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure
enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the
voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A
subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
-a Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
-a communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
-a-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
-a Got a copy of "Ugly's" ?-a :-)
-a There are a few other good field guides, but--
-a DO love the name "Ugly's".
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, >> airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 >> year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it. >>
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as
Spain but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there
are a little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a
feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
That is a good long drive and with the meal break, a safer one.On
motorcycle BMW 1972 R75 I used to drive with a stop for gas
on the same route in about the same time, a day's trip. Had to give up
that from my fatigue syndrome as pain in my right arm from throttle
twisting was too much.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least >>>> warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using cash
as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of circulation if
they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but I usually have a few $100
bills. Most places take them as a matter of course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still illegal
on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:33:15 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km. >>>> That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as
Spain but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there
are a little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a
feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
There is a problem in the US that might also occur in Australia and
Canada. Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live
in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts. They refer
to the 2500 miles or so in between as 'flyover country'. If they see it at all it's because they flew in to visit Yellowstone and pet a buffalo.
Okay, a bison, but the idiots do try to pet them. This ain't Disney Land.
The phenomenon applies to a lot more than EVs.
Some cannabis dispensaries in California take plastic. I don'tknow the
exact details since as you do I use cash for the cannabis I consume.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better >have a map and plan accordingly.
There is a problem in the US that might also occur in Australia and
Canada. Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live >in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts.
The Plan had better include the TOWING FEES for when
you don't QUITE make it to the next charging station.
Oh, as slow as many EVs charge ... figure in extra
hotel stays.
Too many forget Soylent Green ...
Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
often forgotten.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of
pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160 million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the population doubled.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water
and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
In other words, the state picks Smith's pocket and gives the money to
Jones to promote their vision. No surprise, since that's how government works in all cases.
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
-a-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a-a than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
-a-a Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
-a-a If building a brand new house now I'd insist
-a-a on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
-a-a Very worth the slight extra expense.
-a-a A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
-a-a on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
-a-a do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
-a-a don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
-a-a envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after some years.
-a-a My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
-a-a the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
-a-a and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
-a-a conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
-a-a old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
-a-a corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
-a-a and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
...
-a-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected
a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure
enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the
voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A
subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
-a-a Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
-a-a communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
-a-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
-a-a Got a copy of "Ugly's" ?-a :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
-a-a There are a few other good field guides, but
-a-a DO love the name "Ugly's".
On 8/28/25 12:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204).-a The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for
the
density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better
have a map and plan accordingly.
-a-a-a-aI have a very well off friend who owns a home in San Francisco and who
drives a Tesla to visit his sister in Los Angeles and he make it there
with a meal
break while the car is brought up to a higher rate of charge. He takes
along
friends and relatives of them both.-a He bought the Tesla before Elmo's insanity was manifested in the 2023 campaign for Trump.
-a-a-a-aThat is a good long drive and with the meal break, a safer one.
-a-a-a-aOn a motorcycle BMW 1972 R75 I used to drive with a stop for gas
on the same route in about the same time, a day's trip. Had to give up
that from my fatigue syndrome as pain in my right arm from throttle
twisting was too much.
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water >>> and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
I heard a story (possibly an urban legend) about a dog that would
bark before the telephone rang. It turns out its leash was attached
to a ground wire, and when it was dry the 90-volt pulses on the phone
line would give him a shock that made him both bark and pee. The
urine enabled the phone circuit to complete and the call went through.
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we >> needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still >> have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
"Let them eat cake."
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
The Plan had better include the TOWING FEES for when
you don't QUITE make it to the next charging station.
Oh, as slow as many EVs charge ... figure in extra
hotel stays.
In Germany, you would be the prototype of what we call
"Diesel-Dieter". Judging by the amount of insane drivel you write when on-topic, I am not surprised.
They keepCheck?
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live
in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts. They refer
to the 2500 miles or so in between as 'flyover country'.
-a Acetylene is NEVER quite 'stable'.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the
ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the
charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the
maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal
Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent. The
only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up costing me
money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that was the last
year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of looking at it and
were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork by deer on the trade
in.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water
and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keepCheck?
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
What's a check?
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a-a-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204).-a The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for
the
density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better
have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
On 29/08/2025 8:14 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:WHAT?? Another "Rural Australian"!! Or do you also go by the Nym
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a-a-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house >>>>> for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets >>>> split??
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
car in rural Australia.
"Computer Nerd Kev"??
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of
pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California >>> is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160 million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth. (See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least >>>> warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using cash
as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of circulation if
they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but I usually have a few $100
bills. Most places take them as a matter of course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still illegal
on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a
possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low melting point
alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
For large industrial transformers or motors I used crimped ring tongue terminals. Those were fastened together with a screw and nut, wrapped with rubber tape, and then with vinyl electrical tape for abrasion resistance. Overkill but you really didn't want sparks from a 460 VAC junction box.--
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
-a-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a-a than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
-a-a Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
-a-a If building a brand new house now I'd insist
-a-a on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
-a-a Very worth the slight extra expense.
-a-a A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
-a-a on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
-a-a do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
-a-a don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
-a-a envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
-a There are two enemies of electrical connections ... oxidation
-a and the tendency of copper to keep compressing under load.
-a Either can lead to overheating/fire eventually.
-a Had an odd problem in an out-building. The lights would
-a come on BUT if you flipped on the little welder unit
-a everything would go black. An electrician finally found
-a that the 40 year old connection to the out-building in
-a the main panel had 'compressed' and was nearly just LOOSE.
-a A quick re-tighten fixed all ... but that sort of thing
-a CAN sneak up on you.
-a Worst problem ever, USA, was when aluminum electrical
-a wire was first introduced. Especially in coastal areas
-a the stuff would corrode - every plug socket. Five or
-a ten years and the flames would start.
-a Soldered connections, they just don't DO that anymore.
-a It's twist (maybe) and one of those screw-over caps.
-a NOT really good. Short-term cheap, longer-term DOOM.
-a-a My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
-a-a the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
-a-a and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
-a-a conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
-a-a old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
-a-a corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
-a-a and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
-a Then you're in luck !
-a Really DO want those soldered connections esp for stuff
-a in the ceiling and walls where you can't see or get to it.
-a Otherwise ... do you REALLY want connections in the attic
-a getting red hot ? Breakers/fuses won't SEE that.
-a But, they don't DO that anymore.
-a The guy who built his/my house had access to true 50s
-a 'industrial' Romex. Insulated wires, HEAVY outer cover
-a plus HEAVY fiberglas-reinforced 2nd jacket. Should be
-a used everywhere IMHO, but, of course, they won't.
...
-a-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss
connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny
spark. Sure enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I
measured the voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains
voltage. A subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
-a-a Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
-a-a communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
-a-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
-a-a Got a copy of "Ugly's" ?-a :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
-a The 45 years ??? Hey, they DID pay me for this stuff.
-a Dad was a master electrician, industrial/mil. Sometimes
-a I paid attention.
-a My fave was 50-100hp pump control panels. You could
-a wait three months, pay $9000, OR build them yourself
-a from parts on Grainger/McMasters. 3-phase main breaker
-a feeds phase/voltage monitor which feeds restart delay
-a timer which feeds the actual motor-starter. Fuses in
-a between each stage. Not too difficult. In case of
-a a power blink you do NOT want a large pump immediately
-a restarting because there'll be a back-surge - and you
-a will either shear off your impeller or overload the
-a motor or both. A simple 60sec delay timer fixes that.
-a Reversible pumps double the complexity, but not the
-a logic. Never had complaints from any 'real' electricians
-a who came along after.
-a Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
-a less than $9000.
-a Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
-a MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
-a except right at start-up to get it going in the right
-a direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
-a to run larger motors.
-a "Rotary" converters work well - BUT if in like a
-a sea-side environment they'll CORRODE. "Static" is
-a best there. Strongly rec "RONK" static converters.
-a You DO have to "tune them in" - adjust transformer
-a and cap-bank jumpers - but if you do it right you
-a can get almost perfect power on all 3 phases.
-a DO remember the 'yellow wire' ... important-a :-)
-a-a There are a few other good field guides, but
-a-a DO love the name "Ugly's".
Just chanced on an article here that is related. I mentioned somewhere
that public electric chargers are charging (in the bill) way too much.
<https://www.hibridosyelectricos.com/camiones/pesan-mas-40-toneladas-pero-ceo-man-tiene-claro-camion-electrico-se-amortiza-en-dos-anos-medio_81949_102.html>
They weigh more than 40 tonnes, but MAN's CEO is clear: rCyAn electric
lorry pays for itself in two and a half years.rCO
The executive is calling for political action to sustain
electromobility. The aim is to set an industrial price for electricity
for transport that places the kWh between re40.20 and re40.30 (compared to the usual re40.45rCo0.50 at public charging points). With this
combination, he argues that electric trucks rCypay for themselves in--
2.5rCo3 yearsrCO compared to equivalent diesel trucks. In buses, MAN is already in a different league: more than 2,500 electric city buses are
in operation in Europe, covering more than 100 million kilometres.
On 29/08/2025 8:14 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:WHAT?? Another "Rural Australian"!! Or do you also go by the Nym
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
-a-a-a 115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets >>>> split??
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
"Computer Nerd Kev"??
--
Daniel70
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a
possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low melting point
alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
For large industrial transformers or motors I used crimped ring tongue terminals. Those were fastened together with a screw and nut, wrapped with rubber tape, and then with vinyl electrical tape for abrasion resistance. Overkill but you really didn't want sparks from a 460 VAC junction box.
On 2025-08-29 08:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aI really doubt it is a contest.-a The contest is to get rid of >>>> pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer.-a Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere.-a Our gas in
California
is taxed as well.-a A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160
million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.-a (See my .sig.)-a That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
On 2025-08-29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Just chanced on an article here that is related. I mentioned somewhere
that public electric chargers are charging (in the bill) way too much.
<https://www.hibridosyelectricos.com/camiones/pesan-mas-40-toneladas-pero-ceo-man-tiene-claro-camion-electrico-se-amortiza-en-dos-anos-medio_81949_102.html>
They weigh more than 40 tonnes, but MAN's CEO is clear: rCyAn electric
lorry pays for itself in two and a half years.rCO
The executive is calling for political action to sustain
electromobility. The aim is to set an industrial price for electricity
for transport that places the kWh between re40.20 and re40.30 (compared to >> the usual re40.45rCo0.50 at public charging points). With this
Are these prices the exact ones that are effectively paid or have these
been adapted to be comparable? Or is this fully VAT-exempt for everyone?
On 2025-08-29 09:13, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
-a-a 120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
-a-a beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
-a-a to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
-a-a than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
-a-a Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
-a-a If building a brand new house now I'd insist
-a-a on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
-a-a Very worth the slight extra expense.
-a-a A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
-a-a on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
-a-a do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
-a-a don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
-a-a envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
-a-a There are two enemies of electrical connections ... oxidation
-a-a and the tendency of copper to keep compressing under load.
-a-a Either can lead to overheating/fire eventually.
-a-a Had an odd problem in an out-building. The lights would
-a-a come on BUT if you flipped on the little welder unit
-a-a everything would go black. An electrician finally found
-a-a that the 40 year old connection to the out-building in
-a-a the main panel had 'compressed' and was nearly just LOOSE.
-a-a A quick re-tighten fixed all ... but that sort of thing
-a-a CAN sneak up on you.
-a-a Worst problem ever, USA, was when aluminum electrical
-a-a wire was first introduced. Especially in coastal areas
-a-a the stuff would corrode - every plug socket. Five or
-a-a ten years and the flames would start.
-a-a Soldered connections, they just don't DO that anymore.
-a-a It's twist (maybe) and one of those screw-over caps.
-a-a NOT really good. Short-term cheap, longer-term DOOM.
-a-a My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
-a-a the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
-a-a and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
-a-a conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
-a-a old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
-a-a corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
-a-a and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some
points when they go into some device.
-a-a Then you're in luck !
-a-a Really DO want those soldered connections esp for stuff
-a-a in the ceiling and walls where you can't see or get to it.
-a-a Otherwise ... do you REALLY want connections in the attic
-a-a getting red hot ? Breakers/fuses won't SEE that.
-a-a But, they don't DO that anymore.
-a-a The guy who built his/my house had access to true 50s
-a-a 'industrial' Romex. Insulated wires, HEAVY outer cover
-a-a plus HEAVY fiberglas-reinforced 2nd jacket. Should be
-a-a used everywhere IMHO, but, of course, they won't.
...
-a-a Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
-a-a only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
-a-a hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
-a-a is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
-a-a can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
-a-a thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables >>>>> without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss
connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny
spark. Sure enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I
measured the voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains
voltage. A subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
-a-a Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
-a-a communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
-a-a Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
-a-a Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
-a-a Got a copy of "Ugly's" ?-a :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
-a-a The 45 years ??? Hey, they DID pay me for this stuff.
-a-a Dad was a master electrician, industrial/mil. Sometimes
-a-a I paid attention.
-a-a My fave was 50-100hp pump control panels. You could
-a-a wait three months, pay $9000, OR build them yourself
-a-a from parts on Grainger/McMasters. 3-phase main breaker
-a-a feeds phase/voltage monitor which feeds restart delay
-a-a timer which feeds the actual motor-starter. Fuses in
-a-a between each stage. Not too difficult. In case of
-a-a a power blink you do NOT want a large pump immediately
-a-a restarting because there'll be a back-surge - and you
-a-a will either shear off your impeller or overload the
-a-a motor or both. A simple 60sec delay timer fixes that.
-a-a Reversible pumps double the complexity, but not the
-a-a logic. Never had complaints from any 'real' electricians
-a-a who came along after.
-a-a Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
-a-a less than $9000.
-a-a Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
-a-a MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
-a-a except right at start-up to get it going in the right
-a-a direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
-a-a to run larger motors.
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And some were "four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and feed
electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2-a-a "Rotary" converters work well - BUT if in like a
-a-a sea-side environment they'll CORRODE. "Static" is
-a-a best there. Strongly rec "RONK" static converters.
-a-a You DO have to "tune them in" - adjust transformer
-a-a and cap-bank jumpers - but if you do it right you
-a-a can get almost perfect power on all 3 phases.
-a-a DO remember the 'yellow wire' ... important-a :-)
-a-a There are a few other good field guides, but
-a-a DO love the name "Ugly's".
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
In other words, the state picks Smith's pocket and gives the money to
Jones to promote their vision. No surprise, since that's how government
works in all cases.
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul.
-- George Bernard Shaw
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And some were "four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and feed
electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. EfOU
-a Not SURE you can make an economy with "stable", much
-a less "shrinking". Doesn't matter which -ism you're
-a into.
On 2025-08-29 01:13, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt
connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low
melting point alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
Depends on what you mean by "inverter". There are now
-a all-electronic units that will make 3ph out of single.
-a A bit pricey but relatively small and reliable. Most
-a want the input voltage to be twice the output voltage.
-a Most will do 'soft starts' also - which can be good
-a if you need to get a big mass moving rather than
-a just 'snap' start everything. The 'snap' can sometimes
-a include drive belts or even shafts-a EfOe
Why do Poor Peters vote for Rich Idiot Donald?Because he is more amusing than Rich Biden/Hillary ...
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but
we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit with 60
amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
By contrast, oxygen in cylinders for welding applications is stored at a
very high pressure, typically 2000 psi. It is this storage pressure
which makes it dangerous: if the container is damaged it can explode violently. A cylinder falling over can strike the control valve on an obstruction which breaks it off; the cylinder itself is then fired off
like a rocket! I heard of one incidence comparing the damage to the
storage facility as comparable with that caused by a 16-inch shell.
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On Duty"!!
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government
Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
Yep - DOES confuse them. I think the dealers get a kick-back from the
finance entity as well.
If at ALL possible, NEVER finance a vehicle. You'll spend two, three,
maybe four times as much for it over time. A Corolla isn't worth
$150,000.
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
I heard a story (possibly an urban legend) about a dog that would bark
before the telephone rang. It turns out its leash was attached to a
ground wire, and when it was dry the 90-volt pulses on the phone line
would give him a shock that made him both bark and pee. The urine
enabled the phone circuit to complete and the call went through.
However standard crimp connectors, wire nuts, and the push in connections used with solid wire use no solder at all.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
Now extra-dry soil, not sure HOW you get a proper ground.
There's an area near my town that's essentially a sand dune - gotta
put a water well down nearly 100' to get anything. It'd also be so
with a ground rod.
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at
least warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future
feature is that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll
be writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using
cash as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so
even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a
heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking
Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were
still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of
circulation if they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them
back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to
day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but
I usually have a few $100 bills. Most places take them as a matter of
course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but
we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the dangers
of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
(See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited--
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but >>>> we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes...-a The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the dangers >> of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
-a-a-a-aIf you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the Hindenbery that
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause of
the horrific disaster.
-a-a-a-abliss--
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
On 8/29/25 8:55 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 08:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aI really doubt it is a contest.-a The contest is to get rid of >>>>> pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the >>>>> future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer.-a Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the >>>>> amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere.-a Our gas in
California
is taxed as well.-a A problem with electrically powered vehicles not >>>>> using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which >>>>> are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160
million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of >>>> old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.-a (See my .sig.)-a That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
-a Not SURE you can make an economy with "stable", much
-a less "shrinking". Doesn't matter which -ism you're
-a into.
-a Western civ and friends, we're into 'shrinking' now ---
-a like half the replacement rate or even worse in Japan
-a and S.Korea.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at
least warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future
feature is that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've >>>>> paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They >>>>> keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll
be writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000re4 in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using
cash as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so
even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a
heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking
Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were
still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of
circulation if they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them
back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to
day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but
I usually have a few $100 bills. Most places take them as a matter of
course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of cash in hand.
It's a very strange situation that the Feds have been trying to ignore.
Too many states have legalized marijuana, either medical or recreational, that a crack down might start a states rights war.
Then there is the tax. In this state recreational is 22% tax. If the
person has a medical card the tax is much less but it is revenue.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 15:06:42 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 01:13, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt
connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low
melting point alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxEdyW8RP8
The shrinking is part of the design. He uses a heat gun but in the field without electricity a butane micro torch works well. You just need a deft touch. A BIC lighter works too in a pinch but the metal part gets pretty
hot.
Whether flooding the join with solder is better is a good question.
However standard crimp connectors, wire nuts, and the push in connections used with solid wire use no solder at all.
On 8/29/25 9:16 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 09:13, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
-a-a Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
-a-a less than $9000.
-a-a Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
-a-a MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
-a-a except right at start-up to get it going in the right
-a-a direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
-a-a to run larger motors.
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three
phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And
some were "four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and
feed electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and
inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
-a Depends on what you mean by "inverter". There are now
-a all-electronic units that will make 3ph out of single.
-a A bit pricey but relatively small and reliable. Most
-a want the input voltage to be twice the output voltage.
-a Most will do 'soft starts' also - which can be good
-a if you need to get a big mass moving rather than
-a just 'snap' start everything. The 'snap' can sometimes
-a include drive belts or even shafts-a :-)
-a A proper "static inverter" has a big transformer and a
-a bank of caps. Between those you can create a fairly well
-a timed 3rd phase.
-a DID price out DC motors once ... for 20hp or more
-a they were more expensive and you also had to buy
-a an AC->DC rectifier unit. Easier to fine-control
-a There's also a funky new kind of motor called
-a "written pole". Didn't look into them too much,
-a the price was like double and 20hp was the largest
-a size I saw.
-a SOUNDS like your fridge actually uses a DC motor,
-a so the "inverter" is a rectifier unit, possibly
-a capable of PWM.
-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
-a decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On Duty"!!
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary arrangements
and the ground rods.
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found out about the Rule of 78s.
c186282 wrote:
[snip]
-a Acetylene is NEVER quite 'stable'.
For transport, acetylene is normally dissolved in a solvent, either
acetone or N,N-dimethylformamide (DMF). It's only held at a moderate pressure, probably no more than 275 psi. (A car tyre might be 30 to 50 psi.)
By contrast, oxygen in cylinders for welding applications is stored at a very high pressure, typically 2000 psi. It is this storage pressure
which makes it dangerous: if the container is damaged it can explode violently. A cylinder falling over can strike the control valve on an obstruction which breaks it off; the cylinder itself is then fired off
like a rocket! I heard of one incidence comparing the damage to the
storage facility as comparable with that caused by a 16-inch shell.
On 29/08/2025 12:06 am, Tim Slattery wrote:
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
Ofcourse it does!! Why the hell did I suggest "Red Dwarf" but then
mention "Restaurant at the end of the Universe".
Book Three of the Six Book Trilogy, I think.
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water >>> and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On Duty"!!
On 29/08/2025 00:56, rbowman wrote:
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the
ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the
charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I
shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
Not sure if they use that ground for the low voltage circuit though
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole andProbably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly we
were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found out
about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan.
Looking back on it we realized we had been screwed.
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a sphere for?
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:Hindenbery
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:If you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents
but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted
on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the
dangers of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause
of the horrific disaster.
bliss
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found
out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we realized we had been screwed.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a
sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one on
the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe design.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/violinsoldier/191846328
They must have thought the PVC was too small a diameter for accuracy and
had something that could be used as a funnel. As one of the comments say 'don't eat the yellow snow'. I worked with a guy who had 4 years in the service, the Navy iirc. We were driving from Minneapolis to the job site
in the hinterlands, and there was a billboard with that slogan. Jimmy
asked what it meant. Nice guy but I don't know how he could be so
clueless. He wasn't dumb by any means just incredibly naive.
Fate had more in store for him. He'd planned for some recreation in his
spare time since we went out for two weeks at a time and brought his
bowling ball. The rest of his luggage wound up in Timbuktu or some other undisclosed location, but the bowling ball, shoes, and so forth arrived safely on the luggage carousel at MinneapolisrCoSaint Paul International.
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end of the
line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid adding one more
pole in the middle of the last span that if you look at it from some
angles the pole actually looks bent back like a spring.
Buying cars - or even telephones - with dealer financing is almost
always a bad deal. You are commingling negotiations on two transactions:
a purchase and a loan. If you have a trade-in it's even worse: Then
there are three transactions mixed together.
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end
of the line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid
adding one more pole in the middle of the last span that if you
look at it from some angles the pole actually looks bent back like
a spring.
On 29/08/2025 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Why do Poor Peters vote for Rich Idiot Donald?Because he is more amusing than Rich Biden/Hillary ...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 12:15:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:Hindenbery
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:If you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solventsEither that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted >>>>> on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'. >>>>
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the
dangers of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
that
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause
of the horrific disaster.
https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 23:51:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found
out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we
realized we had been screwed.
After the Audi I only bought one car on time, a 1980 Camaro. I was riding
by the dealership on my bicycle and saw a sign '$99 Down 0% Financing' through GMAC. I approached it like petting a rattlesnake but concluded it would work for me. The important word above is '1980'. The wheels were starting to come off the wagon and both the dealer and GM had an interest
in disappearing 1980 vehicles before the 1981 model year.
Good car but when the 3rd gen Firebird came out with a hatchback in '82 I
was sold.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 21:47:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
They are a source of local amusement and amazement.
https://www.cannabisindustrydata.com/how-many-cannabis-dispensaries-are- located-in-missoula-montana/
The refer to themselves as dispensaries, going back to the time when you needed a medical card. Some still are medical only but most also sell recreational. Same weed, different taxing.
There is a law about how close together they can be or there would
probably be more. The population of the city and surrounding areas is
about 125,000 if you count the mules. Even the most zoned out stoner does
the math, scratches his head, and says 'How are they all making a
living?'. It's not like people are driving in from adjoining states to
stock up. It's illegal in Idaho, but Spokane Washington where it is legal
is a lot closer. Still, every time a business leaves because they can't afford the rent a dispensary pops up.
The state is making money and 28% of the haul goes to FWP (Fish, Wildlife
& Parks), the state parks, and trails so I'm not complaining.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 21:47:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
They are a source of local amusement and amazement.
https://www.cannabisindustrydata.com/how-many-cannabis-dispensaries-are- located-in-missoula-montana/
The refer to themselves as dispensaries, going back to the time when you needed a medical card. Some still are medical only but most also sell recreational. Same weed, different taxing.
There is a law about how close together they can be or there would
probably be more. The population of the city and surrounding areas is
about 125,000 if you count the mules. Even the most zoned out stoner does
the math, scratches his head, and says 'How are they all making a
living?'. It's not like people are driving in from adjoining states to
stock up. It's illegal in Idaho, but Spokane Washington where it is legal
is a lot closer. Still, every time a business leaves because they can't afford the rent a dispensary pops up.
The state is making money and 28% of the haul goes to FWP (Fish, Wildlife
& Parks), the state parks, and trails so I'm not complaining.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
-a-a decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I have AC.
The ground does get very dry and cracked around here, but no
issues with the power. Actually I find it surprising that SWER
hasn't been more widely adopted overseas.
Not sure if they use that ground for the low voltage circuit thoughThere's a ground stake at the house and I believe under the pole
they burried wires parallel to the surface in different directions,
but I'm not entirely sure about that, it just gives me something to
think about when digging a hole. But I'm sure both sides of the
transformer connect to Earth.
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
-a-a decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of cash in hand.
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of
cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
Where there's a will, there's a way!! ;-P
-a Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller
-a Ferraris ... delivery after body work.
-a Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural
-a roads and barely even noticed.
-a That's MPH, not KPH.
-a The Italians do GOOD WORK.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
On 30/08/2025 4:29 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
-a-a Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller
-a-a Ferraris ... delivery after body work.
-a-a Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural
-a-a roads and barely even noticed.
-a-a That's MPH, not KPH.
-a-a The Italians do GOOD WORK.
1977, Mazda Capella Rotary RX2 (Wankel 12A Rotary Engine (1146cc)),
couple of miles straight Country road, floored it.
135MPH/215KPH ... before I lifted my foot!!
Japanese do GOOD WORK, too!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Capella
Unfortunately, I wrote it off at 'normal' road speeds about six months later.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:17:29 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:--
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government >>>> Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
A bit. The hood still closed although it was a bit more sculpted. In one
of those moments where time slows down I noted the deer was riding on the hood for a bit. I stopped and he left the scene of the accident.
In this state if you kill the deer you can take it with you -- the whole deer. No butchering it by the side of the road and leaving a gut pile to attract bears, coyotes, and so forth. One should make sure the deer is
really dead and not just stunned before loading it into the hatchback.
"into the hatchback" ... Yuck!! Better with a Ute! (A Pick-up for our OS cousins!)
In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole andProbably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
Some (not many) have them, although as a second (etc.) vehicle with
something petrol-powered. If the range gets you to the nearest town
and back, then it'll cover most of many rural Australian's driving
(I wonder of many think about the range reduction after the
batteries start wearing out though). The petrol station on a highway
through one of the nearest towns has a charging station. But that's
a bit crazy, it's well away from any other stores or sights, so
you'd spend much of an hour walking into town and back, although I
guess at least that's something to do. Anyway unsurprisingly I've
never seen an electric car there.
The fact that the two petrol stations in that town have been built
in just the last few years suggests that some people sure aren't
expecting electric cars to take over out here.
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
On 30/08/2025 4:32 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:17:29 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:cousins!)
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the >>>>> State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government >>>>> Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance >>>>> traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
A bit. The hood still closed although it was a bit more sculpted. In one
of those moments where time slows down I noted the deer was riding on the
hood for a bit. I stopped and he left the scene of the accident.
In this state if you kill the deer you can take it with you -- the whole
deer. No butchering it by the side of the road and leaving a gut pile to
attract bears, coyotes, and so forth. One should make sure the deer is
really dead and not just stunned before loading it into the hatchback.
"into the hatchback" ... Yuck!! Better with a Ute! (A Pick-up for our OS
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end
of the line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid
adding one more pole in the middle of the last span that if you
look at it from some angles the pole actually looks bent back like
a spring.
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that.-a More stuck in the middle of the Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 2025-08-29, Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 12:06 am, Tim Slattery wrote:
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells >>>> the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!! >>>> Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
Ofcourse it does!! Why the hell did I suggest "Red Dwarf" but then
mention "Restaurant at the end of the Universe".
Book Three of the Six Book Trilogy, I think.
Six? I must be forgetting one. I did love the way the fifth was
described as "the fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhiker's Trilogy".
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of
cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
Where there's a will, there's a way!! ;-P
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 30/08/2025 5:10 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!!Western Victoria.
Where in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that.-a More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
"Western Victoria" is just about 'Down Town" compared to lots of
Australia.
On 8/30/25 05:33, Daniel70 wrote:
"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
I mean who should know The English Language better than the
English?? ;-P
Anyone speaking the English lanuage who paid attention in
history classes. William the Bastard, aka the Conqueror of England in
1066 AD whcih led eventualy to the United Kingdom. Allegedly the son
of a butcher but ambitious and capable. His daddy could carve up a
carcass and William carved up England into estates for his
followers. He was responsible for the creation of the Domesday Book
which was information on which to base taxes.
Before the Conquest England was divided into smaller states
which were too fiercely independent to mount a unified response to the
latest continental invasion.
For several hundred years the languages in use were for aristocrats, Norman French. For the clergy Latin and for the peasants depending on
what they had spoken before the Conquest, various tongues but were
gradually forced to learn enough Norman French to avoid frequent beatings
by their Overlords or the Overlords minions.
Now English emerged from this stew and was not planned by anyone
which is why it has so many deviations from what would appear to be
logical usage and spelling.
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English??
;-P
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot
of cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
-a-a with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 8/30/25 1:02 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 23:51:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we
found out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we
realized we had been screwed.
After the Audi I only bought one car on time, a 1980 Camaro. I was
riding by the dealership on my bicycle and saw a sign '$99 Down 0%
Financing' through GMAC. I approached it like petting a rattlesnake but
concluded it would work for me. The important word above is '1980'.
The wheels were starting to come off the wagon and both the dealer and
GM had an interest in disappearing 1980 vehicles before the 1981 model
year.
Good car but when the 3rd gen Firebird came out with a hatchback in '82
I was sold.
Hey, "cool looking" just CALLS
DROVE a hopped-up Corvette a few times ... impressive ... but I
wouldn't BUY one.
On 30/08/2025 4:29 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
-a Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller Ferraris ... delivery
-a after body work. Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural roads
-a and barely even noticed.
-a That's MPH, not KPH.
-a The Italians do GOOD WORK.
1977, Mazda Capella Rotary RX2 (Wankel 12A Rotary Engine (1146cc)),
couple of miles straight Country road, floored it.
135MPH/215KPH ... before I lifted my foot!!
SOME creosote wood poles still ARE good however.
Mine is over 60 years and still solid.
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
Anyway, eastern USA especially, deer have become a PEST SPECIES and
public-safety threat. 'Conservation'
and "Bambi lovers" were responsible. LARGE numbers of impacts now.
Alas the product is 10-100 times stronger than the old 60s/70s weed.
Now you get Thor's Hammer.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:59:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Alas the product is 10-100 times stronger than the old 60s/70s weed.
Now you get Thor's Hammer.
If I went that route I'd get some of the 'edibles' and cut them into
little pieces rather than jumping right in. 'dabs' all that stuff is Greek
to me. All I ever knew was a baggie of ditchweed and a pack of 'zags.
i did score some hash a couple of times. That was good stuff but I think
it still was near beer in comparison to the modern stuff.
Anyway, I've found I prefer reality without chemical assistance. Well,
there is my caffeine consumption...
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
-a-a with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
I remember when the Wankels started showing up at SCCA races. They would
go down the straight very rapidly making a polite little humming noise.
On 8/30/25 8:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
-a Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more
-a about English history than actual Brits these days :-)
-a Anyway, 'check' or 'cheque' ... convenient paper instrument
-a for transferring funds. Best for larger transfers.
-a Sorry, anyone with SENSE doesn't have a $95,000 limit--
-a on their credit cards and does NOT do wire/routing
-a transfers because Vlad's boyz will be ON that within
-a five minutes.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about how
one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing immigration. How
did that work out?
On 8/30/25 05:33, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
-a-a-a-aAnyone speaking the English lanuage who paid attention in history classes.
William the Bastard, aka the Conqueror of England in 1066 AD whcih led eventualy
to the United Kingdom.-a Allegedly the son of a butcher but ambitious and capable.
His daddy could carve up a carcass and William carved up England into estates
for his followers. He was responsible for the creation of the Domesday Book which was information on which to base taxes.
-a-a-a-aBefore the Conquest England was divided into smaller states which were
too fiercely independent to mount a unified response to the latest continental
invasion.
-a-a-a-aFor several hundred years the languages in use were for aristocrats, Norman French. For the clergy Latin and for the peasants depending on
what they had spoken before the Conquest, various tongues but were
gradually forced to learn enough Norman French to avoid frequent beatings
by their Overlords or the Overlords minions.
-a-a-a-aNow English emerged from this stew and was not planned by anyone which is why it has so many deviations from what would appear to be
logical usage and spelling.
-a-a-a-abliss
Today it's the Department of Ecological Equity' or some such. Good bet
Hochul doesn't want rednecks shooting Bambi.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
That too is not a new phenomena.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
-a-a with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:03:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 5:10 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!!Western Victoria.
Where in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
"Western Victoria" is just about 'Down Town" compared to lots of
Australia.
Considering Montana is 60,000 square miles larger than Victoria and has 4 million fewer people than Melbourne alone, I'm having little problem with 'rural' too.
I realize that the population density isn't uniform, but...
Even Bendigo is a big city compared to where I live.
And sugar which produces the same reaction in the CNS as many
narcotics.
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
Yes I smirk when big (to me) cities like Bendigo and Geelong are labeled "regional Victoria" in the media. Anyway where I live there are more
roos per square Km than humans, so that's a metric.
On 30/08/2025 21:29, rbowman wrote:
Today it's the Department of Ecological Equity' or some such. Good bet
Hochul doesn't want rednecks shooting Bambi.
I just heard that a friend of a friend is going to - or has - potted a fallow deer, and half is coming my way. Yum!.
I think that's christmas sorted
On 30/08/2025 13:47, c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 8:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:Golly. I remember those. Haven't used one in years
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really
say chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to
rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language
up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English??
;-P
-a Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
-a history than actual Brits these days
-a Anyway, 'check' or 'cheque' ... convenient paper instrument for
-a transferring funds. Best for larger transfers.
It get's worse, because at the time when printing started to become
normal, the printers would decide how to spell words and sometimes they
made a godawful mess.
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
--That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
That too is not a new phenomena.
On 30/08/2025 18:37, pyotr filipivich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11-a the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11-a the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
-a-a-a-aPretty much that has been the model for millennium.-a The Romans >>>> had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
-a-a-a-aUnless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where >>>> are the next generation going to live?-a Work?
-a-a-a-aHmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy?-a Speaking of which hows
that working out?
Well. thereby hangs a tale.
Official CCP story. The populations has stabilised at 1.4billion.
Unofficial careful estimates made using proxies., China fell to less
than a billion - 900million and then covid came along and *half the
people died* and China is now only 450 million or thereabouts
And the economy is in collapse
Feel free to do your own research.--
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
-a-a-a-aThat too is not a new phenomena.
Well is sorta is.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 22:33:04 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've toldCheck? What's a check?
them you'll be writing a check.
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you
really say chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say
whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did
screw the language up.
I think there was some discussion about Clinton's parentage
but I had in mind the Frenchy who brought some Romanized mishmash to
the island to blend in with the existing mishmash.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the
English?? ;-P
Now if they could learn to speak it. I've enjoyed several Australian
shows like 'Mystery Road'. I don't have a problem understanding the
dialogue which is more than I can say for some British police
procedurals.
I will admit I thought the kid's name was Molly before I say it
spelled Marley on a poster. Otherwise WA looked very familiar
although I've never been there.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:45:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
Funny how you never quite get what you voted for, isn't it? You get what
the people who own the pols want. I've been rereading Spengler's
'Prussianism and Socialism' from 1919 where he mentions the same problem
with the Tories and Whigs of his day.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
After WWI the US copied a captured Zepplin. Unfortunately it was a height climber, designed for one thing only -- getting higher than the ceiling of the Brit aeroplanes, not durability.
https://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html
'Hell's Angels' is well worth watching if you've never seen it.
But such honest trade seems to be rare in that line of business.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a
sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one on
the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe design.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/violinsoldier/191846328
They must have thought the PVC was too small a diameter for accuracy and
had something that could be used as a funnel. As one of the comments say 'don't eat the yellow snow'. I worked with a guy who had 4 years in the service, the Navy iirc. We were driving from Minneapolis to the job site
in the hinterlands, and there was a billboard with that slogan. Jimmy
asked what it meant. Nice guy but I don't know how he could be so
clueless. He wasn't dumb by any means just incredibly naive.
Fate had more in store for him. He'd planned for some recreation in his
spare time since we went out for two weeks at a time and brought his
bowling ball. The rest of his luggage wound up in Timbuktu or some other undisclosed location, but the bowling ball, shoes, and so forth arrived safely on the luggage carousel at MinneapolisrCoSaint Paul International.
In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 00:56, rbowman wrote:
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the >>>> ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the >>>> charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I >>> shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
Indeed, I don't even get hot feet while using a welder. :)
The ground does get very dry and cracked around here, but no
issues with the power. Actually I find it surprising that SWER
hasn't been more widely adopted overseas.
On 8/30/25 12:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
-a Big 6-beer piss ... better go 3/4" minimum on the funnel :-)
-a Anyway, if you WANT the side of your house to smell like
-a a Parisian alleyway .........
-a Where I live the water table is typically only two or
-a three feet down. "Grounding" is fairly easy. Not the
-a same everywhere though ... worst case you may need to
-a go down 20-30 feet - and even then don't expect to
-a continually channel lots of amps down there.
-a Actual 'ground' is best coupled with Ground-Fault
-a breakers. "Ground" is your last-ditch SAFETY, not
-a a common functional wiring item.
-a USA, most 'ground rods' you buy these days are just
-a copper-plated steel. They WILL rot after a time
-a from electrolytic action. 1940s/50s some 60s ...
-a the rods were kinda pure hammer-hardened copper.
-a Unaffordable now.
On 2025-08-30 10:52, c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
-a-a decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
-a-a You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit
-a-a on 10 amps.
I do. :-P
It is rated at 1200Wats, I think. Inverter, at night runs as low as 180watts. I measured it.
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
-a-a decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
-a You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit
-a on 10 amps.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
Hmm! I was going to post that PRC had cancelled that some time ago but checking .... https://duckduckgo.com/?kl=us-en&q=%22PRC%27s+One+Child+Policy%22&t=seamonkey&ia=web
... seems not.
Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >>upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of >>rewiring.
That sounds like they don't want you to have solar power. Or are we
talking about a single phase at 100 ?
I think we use bronze. No, Google says copper-plated steel too.
Maybe in the past.
'Mystery Road' is a nice little Aussie Crime Drama .... set in the
absolutely gorgeous Outback.
Sort of "Doctor Who"'ish .... The first series featured a 40'ish Main character, later series featured a 20s Main character .... which is
about to reappear on Aussie T.V. in a couple of weeks.
On 31/08/2025 6:20 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:'Hell's Angels'?? Is that spelled correctly?? ;-P
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too
LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
After WWI the US copied a captured Zepplin. Unfortunately it was a
height climber, designed for one thing only -- getting higher than the
ceiling of the Brit aeroplanes, not durability.
https://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html
'Hell's Angels' is well worth watching if you've never seen it.
On 2025-08-30 06:10, rbowman wrote:piss-
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function >>>>>>> sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the >>>>>>> spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with
a sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away
so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one
on the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe
design.
I see :-D
And ladies?
On 2025-08-31, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >>>upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of >>>rewiring.
That sounds like they don't want you to have solar power. Or are we
talking about a single phase at 100 ?
Not sure how they specify it. The fact that the other company had no
qualms about putting a 14kW generator into the same system probably
means he was BSing me; on the other hand, he was a SOLAR installer. But
I wanted to add batteries at the same time, and that may have spooked
him. On the other hand, the generator is only running when the house is >disconnected from the grid.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 14:24:56 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-30 06:10, rbowman wrote:piss-
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function >>>>>>>> sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the >>>>>>>> spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with
a sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away
so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one
on the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe
design.
I see :-D
And ladies?
https://dmna.ny.gov/foodservice/docs/ Field_Sanitation_Team_Certification_Course/Instructor_Manual/ L006LP_Waste_Disposal_LP.pdf
Presumably they use the latrine although I'm sure some will try to use the tubes to prove they are equal.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 14:29:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I think we use bronze. No, Google says copper-plated steel too.
Maybe in the past.
https://www.platt.com/p/0890755/nvent-erico/earth-rod-solid-copper-19-1mm- x-3m/782856431510/cadlpc711
EARTH ROD, SOLID COPPER, 19,1MM X 3M $ 979.43
https://www.homedepot.com/p/ERICO-1-2-in-x-8-ft-Copper-Ground- Rod-611380UPC/202195737
1/2 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod $18.46
The fine print on the HomeDepot says 'Copper bonded to resist corrosion'.
In the US the copper 'bond' has to be 0.010 inches.
On 2025-08-30 04:31, Lars Poulsen wrote:
But such honest trade seems to be rare in that line of business.
When I bought my cars, I think I always got a straight figure. There was
a list of extras I wanted, got a quote instantly. I don't remember if
the leaflet hand a list of extras and prices. Probably, but not in the
full colour leaflet, but another paper.
Wow. Yes, you need an officer dedicated to all this stuff. One doesn't
think of it.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:45:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
Funny how you never quite get what you voted for, isn't it? You get what
the people who own the pols want. I've been rereading Spengler's
'Prussianism and Socialism' from 1919 where he mentions the same problem
with the Tories and Whigs of his day.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
-a-a *60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>> -a-a with 60 amps.
-a-a The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost prohibitive.
So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use when wildfires
take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes,
I have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have
to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot
of rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost
prohibitive. So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use
when wildfires take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the
power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to
a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
Look up a schematic for common home breaker boxes - "Square-D"
is typical for the USA. There are various vertical 'rails' the
breakers plug into. The 120v breakers plug into the left or
right side 'hots' and then to the neutral. 240v stuff, stoves,
A/C units, are always 'double-size' breakers and plug into
rails that reach across the 240 rails. Your electrician is
SUPPOSED to kind of balance the predicted loads so you
don't have too many breakers of a given kind on one rail
and 'side'. If the A/C is on the right, put the stove
on the left.
Now what I've never heard a good reason for are the HUGE
ugly appliance plugs used in the UK. Somehow I don't see
a table lamp using 100 amps at 240v nor have I seen any
24,000w light bulbs at the hardware store :-)