| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 26 |
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| Calls: | 490 |
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| Files: | 1,077 |
| Messages: | 68,088 |
| Posted today: | 2 |
On 06 Jun 2025 19:37:52 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
And I'd say that Gonme is the Window Manager which looks the most like a
smartphone. The younger users having be raised with smartphone before
having used computer, maybe they are more comfortable with Gnome for
that reason.
Ironic, isn’t it?
Since Microsoft explicitly tried to come up with a
common UI across desktop and mobile devices with Windows 8, only to suffer massive pushback from annoyed users. So it seems GNOME has succeeded where Microsoft has failed?
The installation of Linux today is quite different to when I first
installed it.
Many things are easier, but one thing I found was that the option to
install different software was less obvious. My first Linux
installation gave me a choice to install GNOME and KDE and other Window Managers. The choice was there upfront. I chose GNOME as it was
selected, and KDE wasn't and I didn't see the point in installing a
second, initially.
It isn't much easier today.
Now some distros have spins, so it appears that if you want a
different DE, then you need to download an entirely different
installation image.
The choice has just been moved from within the installer to one that
is made before installation,
The "spins" came with Ubuntu, and even on a normal Ubuntu I'd expect
KDE Plasma to show up in the login menu after an "apt install
kde-standard".
As long with the ones that let CompSci™ near operating systems...
Software engineering is not an exercise in 'self expression'.
It's not Science, its not Art, its DISCIPLINE.
Boring test and test again unto there ARE NO BUGS.
(... unless/until it involves a grammatical symbol in Freedesktop
stuff?)
Do you realize how close this can be to Microsoft claiming they don't
have a monopoly because there are other systems? In practice, that
there's that choice in some corner doesn't change in any way the forces
of peer-pressure and vendor-locking arising from Microsoft and friends, especially if in practice you're still forced to do things their way.
That's what it sounds like when you try to dismiss criticism of forcing something in FLOSS software with "but there's choice".
I don't know when you installed it for the first time, so I can't speak
about it. But When I installed it for the first time in 1995, there was
only slackware available for me and it was way more difficult than
today.
Even a distro like archlinux, which is claim to be difficult to install,
is very easy compared with the issues I had at the time. I had no
Internet help, only lot of HOWTO and README files.
On 2025-07-04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
But it can always be turned off. On *nix systems, the GUI is a
separate, modular, replaceable layer, not inextricably bound into the
OS kernel.
In practice, what people tend to want when they complain about that is
the ability to turn it off without having to abandon what they're using.
In theory, I could boot this computer straight into some implementation
of Pong. Does that mean I can't complain about some issue I might find
e.g. in Linux or in the bootloader?
Le 12-06-2025, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
As long with the ones that let CompSci™ near operating systems...
Yes, you put AI and it does the job better by itself.
Software engineering is not an exercise in 'self expression'.
It's beautiful. It's plain wrong, but you could compete with CtrlAltDel
with poetry.
It's not Science, its not Art, its DISCIPLINE.
Bis: nonsense but beautiful.
Boring test and test again unto there ARE NO BUGS.
Yes, so you never use anything because their remains always some bug and
you wait till there's no more need than bug to release it. Good idea.
And so the warNot in the name of freedom, in the name of it being a huge amount of
against systemd started in the name of freedom.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 08:21:01 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-07-04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
But it can always be turned off. On *nix systems, the GUI is a
separate, modular, replaceable layer, not inextricably bound into the
OS kernel.
In practice, what people tend to want when they complain about that is
the ability to turn it off without having to abandon what they're using.
You mean, run the same apps under a different GUI? That works on Linux
just fine.
In theory, I could boot this computer straight into some implementation
of Pong. Does that mean I can't complain about some issue I might find
e.g. in Linux or in the bootloader?
If you are happier with Pong, by all means stick with that. Leave Linux
(and its bootloaders) to those who are able to get more use out of it.
Raymond and Parens were both involved in the founding of OSI. There are similarities to the FSF, without Stallman's limitations on free.
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 09:25:57 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Thankfully, Free Software/Open Source is all about choice.
Do you realize how close this can be to Microsoft claiming they don't
have a monopoly because there are other systems?
Really?? Have you really sunk down to the point where you are accusing
Open Source of having some kind of monopoly on computing? Do you even
listen to yourself saying that? Big Bad Open Source is now forcing you to
do things you don’t want to do?
Why not run back to Mama Microsoft and she will kiss it and make it all better for you. You seem to be happier there, with someone to tell you
what to do.
I'm not accusing FLOSS of some monopoly, I'm accusing *you* of
describing as "choice" something which isn't really choice in practice,
or that doesn't really address the issue.
Let me explain it again:
- Somebody complains because FLOSS DE or GUI toolkit xyz does not allow
turning off feature abc.
- You say that there is choice because that person can use another
DE, another GUI toolkit or nothing at all.
- The person still cannot choose to do what they want in that DE or GUI
toolkit.
And compare it to:
- Microsoft is accused in court of having a monopoly, and of taking
advantage of it to push other products of theirs.
- Microsoft claims they do not have a monopoly because Linux-based
systems exist.
- Users are still faced with a forced "choice" of Microsoft because of
mandated file formats, because of procedures in public services,
because of lack of website compatibility, because of shady OEM deals,
etc, etc.
Those situations are quite similar and that is what I'm alluding to.
Le 05-07-2025, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
I'm not accusing FLOSS of some monopoly, I'm accusing *you* of
describing as "choice" something which isn't really choice in practice,
or that doesn't really address the issue.
Let me explain it again:
- Somebody complains because FLOSS DE or GUI toolkit xyz does not allow
turning off feature abc.
- You say that there is choice because that person can use another
DE, another GUI toolkit or nothing at all.
- The person still cannot choose to do what they want in that DE or GUI
toolkit.
And compare it to:
- Microsoft is accused in court of having a monopoly, and of taking
advantage of it to push other products of theirs.
- Microsoft claims they do not have a monopoly because Linux-based
systems exist.
- Users are still faced with a forced "choice" of Microsoft because of
mandated file formats, because of procedures in public services,
because of lack of website compatibility, because of shady OEM deals,
etc, etc.
Those situations are quite similar and that is what I'm alluding to.
No, the situation is absolutely not similar. The WM/DE provided by
default by a distro is only a default. It's very easy to switch from
DE/WM to another DE/WM and back to the first one.
For Windows, it's not just a default. On a modern computer, it can be
almost impossible to remove Windows and put Linux on it. It's locked by Microsoft, so on one owns computer claiming that Linux exist as an alternative is just a lie.
Le 05-07-2025, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> a écrit :[...]
I'm not accusing FLOSS of some monopoly, I'm accusing *you* of
describing as "choice" something which isn't really choice in practice,
or that doesn't really address the issue.
Let me explain it again:
- Somebody complains because FLOSS DE or GUI toolkit xyz does not allow
turning off feature abc.
- You say that there is choice because that person can use another
DE, another GUI toolkit or nothing at all.
- The person still cannot choose to do what they want in that DE or GUI
toolkit.
No, the situation is absolutely not similar. The WM/DE provided by
default by a distro is only a default. It's very easy to switch from
DE/WM to another DE/WM and back to the first one.