• The Prolog Community is extremly embarrassing (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom)

    From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Jul 25 21:27:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    That is extremly embarassing. I donrCOt know
    what you are bragging about, when you wrote
    the below. You are wrestling with a ghost!
    Maybe you didnrCOt follow my superbe link:

    seemingly interesting paper. In stead
    particular, his final coa[l]gebra theorem

    The link behind Hopcroft and Karp (1971) I
    gave, which is a Bisimulation and Equirecursive
    Equality hand-out, has a coalgebra example,
    I used to derive pairs.pl from:

    https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6110/2014sp/Lectures/lec35a.pdf

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:

    Inductive logic programming at 30
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.10556

    The paper contains not a single reference to autoencoders!
    Still they show this example:

    Fig. 1 ILP systems struggle with structured examples that
    exhibit observational noise. All three examples clearly
    spell the word "ILP", with some alterations: 3 noisy pixels,
    shifted and elongated letters. If we would be to learn a
    program that simply draws "ILP" in the middle of the picture,
    without noisy pixels and elongated letters, that would
    be a correct program.

    I guess ILP is 30 years behind the AI boom. An early autoencoder
    turned into transformer was already reported here (*):

    SERIAL ORDER, Michael I. Jordan - May 1986 https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~gary/PAPER-SUGGESTIONS/Jordan-TR-8604-OCRed.pdf

    Well ILP might have its merits, maybe we should not ask
    for a marriage of LLM and Prolog, but Autoencoders and ILP.
    But its tricky, I am still trying to decode the da Vinci code of

    things like stacked tensors, are they related to k-literal clauses?
    The paper I referenced is found in this excellent video:

    The Making of ChatGPT (35 Year History) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFS90-FX6pg


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  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Jul 25 21:38:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    My beloved Logic professor introduced Non-Wellfounded
    in the form of library cards, sorry only German:

    Wir denken uns dazu eine Kartothek, auf deren
    Karten wieder Karten derselben Kartothek
    aufgef|+hrt sind. Ein Beispiel einer solchen
    Kartothek w|nre etwa das folgende : wir haben
    drei Karten a, b, c; a f|+hrt a und b auf, b
    die Karten a und c, c die Karte b a = (a, b),
    b = (a, c), c = (b). Entsprechend den sich
    nicht selbst als Element enthaltenden Mengen
    fragen wir nach den Karten, die sich nicht
    selbst auff|+hren. Die Karte a ist die einzige,
    die sich selbst auff|+hrt ; b und c sind somit
    die sich nicht selbst auff|+hrenden Karten.

    He then concludes that Non-Wellfounded has still the
    Russell Paradox, and hence also the productive form of it:

    Es gibt somit in jeder Kartothek eine
    Gesamtheit G von Karten, zu der es keine Karte
    gibt, die genau jene aus G auff|+hrt. (F|+r endliche
    Kartotheken ist dies ziemlich selbstverst|nndlich,
    doch wollen wir auch unendliche Kartotheken in
    Betracht ziehen.) Dieser Satz schliesst aber
    nat|+rlich nicht aus, dass es stets m||glich ist,
    eine genau die Karten aus G auff|+hrende Karte
    herzustellen und diese in die Kartothek zu legen.
    Nur m|+ssen wir mit der M||glich-

    What is your opinion? Excerpt from:

    **DIE ANTINOMIEN DER MENGENLEHRE**
    E. Specker, Dialectica, Vol. 8, No. 3 (15. 9. 1954) https://www.jstor.org/stable/42964119?seq=7

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    That is extremly embarassing. I donrCOt know
    what you are bragging about, when you wrote
    the below. You are wrestling with a ghost!
    Maybe you didnrCOt follow my superbe link:

    seemingly interesting paper. In stead
    particular, his final coa[l]gebra theorem

    The link behind Hopcroft and Karp (1971) I
    gave, which is a Bisimulation and Equirecursive
    Equality hand-out, has a coalgebra example,
    I used to derive pairs.pl from:

    https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6110/2014sp/Lectures/lec35a.pdf

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:

    Inductive logic programming at 30
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.10556

    The paper contains not a single reference to autoencoders!
    Still they show this example:

    Fig. 1 ILP systems struggle with structured examples that
    exhibit observational noise. All three examples clearly
    spell the word "ILP", with some alterations: 3 noisy pixels,
    shifted and elongated letters. If we would be to learn a
    program that simply draws "ILP" in the middle of the picture,
    without noisy pixels and elongated letters, that would
    be a correct program.

    I guess ILP is 30 years behind the AI boom. An early autoencoder
    turned into transformer was already reported here (*):

    SERIAL ORDER, Michael I. Jordan - May 1986
    https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~gary/PAPER-SUGGESTIONS/Jordan-TR-8604-OCRed.pdf

    Well ILP might have its merits, maybe we should not ask
    for a marriage of LLM and Prolog, but Autoencoders and ILP.
    But its tricky, I am still trying to decode the da Vinci code of

    things like stacked tensors, are they related to k-literal clauses?
    The paper I referenced is found in this excellent video:

    The Making of ChatGPT (35 Year History)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFS90-FX6pg



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  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Jul 25 23:03:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Take this exercise. Exercise 4.1 Draw the tree
    represented by the term n1(n2(n4),n3(n5,n6)). https://book.simply-logical.space/src/text/2_part_ii/4.1.html

    Maybe there was a plan that SWISH can draw trees,
    and it could be that something was implemented as well.

    But I don't see anything dynamic working on the
    above web site link. Next challenge for Simply Logical,

    in another life. Draw a rational tree.
    The Prolog system has them:

    /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.26 */
    ?- X = a(Y,_), Y = b(X,_).
    X = a(b(X, _A), _),
    Y = b(X, _A).

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    My beloved Logic professor introduced Non-Wellfounded
    in the form of library cards, sorry only German:

    Wir denken uns dazu eine Kartothek, auf deren
    Karten wieder Karten derselben Kartothek
    aufgef|+hrt sind. Ein Beispiel einer solchen
    Kartothek w|nre etwa das folgende : wir haben
    drei Karten a, b, c; a f|+hrt a und b auf, b
    die Karten a und c, c die Karte b a = (a, b),
    b = (a, c), c = (b). Entsprechend den sich
    nicht selbst als Element enthaltenden Mengen
    fragen wir nach den Karten, die sich nicht
    selbst auff|+hren. Die Karte a ist die einzige,
    die sich selbst auff|+hrt ; b und c sind somit
    die sich nicht selbst auff|+hrenden Karten.

    He then concludes that Non-Wellfounded has still the
    Russell Paradox, and hence also the productive form of it:

    Es gibt somit in jeder Kartothek eine
    Gesamtheit G von Karten, zu der es keine Karte
    gibt, die genau jene aus G auff|+hrt. (F|+r endliche
    Kartotheken ist dies ziemlich selbstverst|nndlich,
    doch wollen wir auch unendliche Kartotheken in
    Betracht ziehen.) Dieser Satz schliesst aber
    nat|+rlich nicht aus, dass es stets m||glich ist,
    eine genau die Karten aus G auff|+hrende Karte
    herzustellen und diese in die Kartothek zu legen.
    Nur m|+ssen wir mit der M||glich-

    What is your opinion? Excerpt from:

    **DIE ANTINOMIEN DER MENGENLEHRE**
    E. Specker, Dialectica, Vol. 8, No. 3 (15. 9. 1954) https://www.jstor.org/stable/42964119?seq=7

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    That is extremly embarassing. I donrCOt know
    what you are bragging about, when you wrote
    the below. You are wrestling with a ghost!
    Maybe you didnrCOt follow my superbe link:

    seemingly interesting paper. In stead
    particular, his final coa[l]gebra theorem

    The link behind Hopcroft and Karp (1971) I
    gave, which is a Bisimulation and Equirecursive
    Equality hand-out, has a coalgebra example,
    I used to derive pairs.pl from:

    https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6110/2014sp/Lectures/lec35a.pdf

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:

    Inductive logic programming at 30
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.10556

    The paper contains not a single reference to autoencoders!
    Still they show this example:

    Fig. 1 ILP systems struggle with structured examples that
    exhibit observational noise. All three examples clearly
    spell the word "ILP", with some alterations: 3 noisy pixels,
    shifted and elongated letters. If we would be to learn a
    program that simply draws "ILP" in the middle of the picture,
    without noisy pixels and elongated letters, that would
    be a correct program.

    I guess ILP is 30 years behind the AI boom. An early autoencoder
    turned into transformer was already reported here (*):

    SERIAL ORDER, Michael I. Jordan - May 1986
    https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~gary/PAPER-SUGGESTIONS/Jordan-TR-8604-OCRed.pdf >>>
    Well ILP might have its merits, maybe we should not ask
    for a marriage of LLM and Prolog, but Autoencoders and ILP.
    But its tricky, I am still trying to decode the da Vinci code of

    things like stacked tensors, are they related to k-literal clauses?
    The paper I referenced is found in this excellent video:

    The Making of ChatGPT (35 Year History)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFS90-FX6pg




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  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Sat Jul 26 16:10:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog


    I guess there is a bug in preparing flat terms vector

    I give you a gold medal EfNc, if you can prove a
    compare_index/3 correct that uses this rule. It
    was already shown impossible by Matt Carlson.

    There are alternative approaches that can reach
    transitivity, but do not use the below step
    inside some compare_index/3.

    compare_term_args(I, C, X, Y, A, H):-
    arg(I, X, K),
    arg(I, Y, L),
    !,
    compare_index(D, K, L, A, H),
    ( D = (=) ->
    I0 is I + 1,
    compare_term_args(I0, C, X, Y, A, H)
    ; C = D
    ).
    compare_term_args(_ ,= , _, _, _, _).

    Maybe there is a grain of salt of invoking the
    Axiom of Choice (AC) in some previous posts.
    Although the Axiom of Choice is not needed for

    finite sets, they have anyway some choice.

    BTW: When Peter Aczel writes ZFC-, he then
    means ZFC without AC, right? But he doesnrCOt
    show some compare/3 .

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Take this exercise. Exercise 4.1 Draw the tree
    represented by the term n1(n2(n4),n3(n5,n6)). https://book.simply-logical.space/src/text/2_part_ii/4.1.html

    Maybe there was a plan that SWISH can draw trees,
    and it could be that something was implemented as well.

    But I don't see anything dynamic working on the
    above web site link. Next challenge for Simply Logical,

    in another life. Draw a rational tree.
    The Prolog system has them:

    /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.26 */
    ?- X = a(Y,_), Y = b(X,_).
    X = a(b(X, _A), _),
    Y = b(X, _A).

    Bye



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  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Sat Jul 26 16:17:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Did the old School Logicians waste time
    with compare/3 ? I guess no:

    Ernst Specker, my beloved Professor, and
    Dana Scott made only a partial order. A
    partial order might have transitivity

    of (<') lacking:

    "Scott's model construction is in fact
    closely related to Specker's but there
    is a subtle difference in the notion of
    tree that they use. In fact neither of
    them formulate their notion of tree in
    terms of graphs but rather in terms of
    what it will be convenient here to
    call tree-partial-orderings."

    See here:

    NON-WELL-FOUNDED SETS
    Peter Aczel - 1988 https://les-mathematiques.net/vanilla/uploads/editor/fh/v4pi6qyxfbel.pdf

    There is also the notion of co-well-
    foundedness, something like Noetherian but
    up side down, i.e. certain ascending
    chains stabilizing.

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:

    I guess there is a bug in preparing flat terms vector

    I give you a gold medal EfNc, if you can prove a
    compare_index/3 correct that uses this rule. It
    was already shown impossible by Matt Carlson.

    There are alternative approaches that can reach
    transitivity, but do not use the below step
    inside some compare_index/3.

    compare_term_args(I, C, X, Y, A, H):-
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a arg(I, X, K),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a arg(I, Y, L),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a !,
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a compare_index(D, K, L, A, H),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a (-a-a-a D = (=) ->
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a I0 is I + 1,
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a compare_term_args(I0, C, X, Y, A, H)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ;-a-a-a C = D
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ).
    compare_term_args(_ ,= , _, _, _, _).

    Maybe there is a grain of salt of invoking the
    Axiom of Choice (AC) in some previous posts.
    Although the Axiom of Choice is not needed for

    finite sets, they have anyway some choice.

    BTW: When Peter Aczel writes ZFC-, he then
    means ZFC without AC, right? But he doesnrCOt
    show some compare/3 .

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Take this exercise. Exercise 4.1 Draw the tree
    represented by the term n1(n2(n4),n3(n5,n6)).
    https://book.simply-logical.space/src/text/2_part_ii/4.1.html

    Maybe there was a plan that SWISH can draw trees,
    and it could be that something was implemented as well.

    But I don't see anything dynamic working on the
    above web site link. Next challenge for Simply Logical,

    in another life. Draw a rational tree.
    The Prolog system has them:

    /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.26 */
    ?- X = a(Y,_), Y = b(X,_).
    X = a(b(X, _A), _),
    Y = b(X, _A).

    Bye




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  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Sat Jul 26 16:36:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Is compare/3 for rational trees a sunflower
    study subject? With one publication from
    the University of Tanzania? Who knows?

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Did the old School Logicians waste time
    with compare/3 ? I guess no:

    Ernst Specker, my beloved Professor, and
    Dana Scott made only a partial order. A
    partial order might have transitivity

    of (<') lacking:

    "Scott's model construction is in fact
    closely related to Specker's but there
    is a subtle difference in the notion of
    tree that they use. In fact neither of
    them formulate their notion of tree in
    terms of graphs but rather in terms of
    what it will be convenient here to
    call tree-partial-orderings."

    See here:

    NON-WELL-FOUNDED SETS
    Peter Aczel - 1988 https://les-mathematiques.net/vanilla/uploads/editor/fh/v4pi6qyxfbel.pdf

    There is also the notion of co-well-
    foundedness, something like Noetherian but
    up side down, i.e. certain ascending
    chains stabilizing.

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:

    I guess there is a bug in preparing flat terms vector

    I give you a gold medal EfNc, if you can prove a
    compare_index/3 correct that uses this rule. It
    was already shown impossible by Matt Carlson.

    There are alternative approaches that can reach
    transitivity, but do not use the below step
    inside some compare_index/3.

    compare_term_args(I, C, X, Y, A, H):-
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a arg(I, X, K),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a arg(I, Y, L),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a !,
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a compare_index(D, K, L, A, H),
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a (-a-a-a D = (=) ->
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a I0 is I + 1,
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a compare_term_args(I0, C, X, Y, A, H)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a ;-a-a-a C = D
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a ).
    compare_term_args(_ ,= , _, _, _, _).

    Maybe there is a grain of salt of invoking the
    Axiom of Choice (AC) in some previous posts.
    Although the Axiom of Choice is not needed for

    finite sets, they have anyway some choice.

    BTW: When Peter Aczel writes ZFC-, he then
    means ZFC without AC, right? But he doesnrCOt
    show some compare/3 .

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Take this exercise. Exercise 4.1 Draw the tree
    represented by the term n1(n2(n4),n3(n5,n6)).
    https://book.simply-logical.space/src/text/2_part_ii/4.1.html

    Maybe there was a plan that SWISH can draw trees,
    and it could be that something was implemented as well.

    But I don't see anything dynamic working on the
    above web site link. Next challenge for Simply Logical,

    in another life. Draw a rational tree.
    The Prolog system has them:

    /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.26 */
    ?- X = a(Y,_), Y = b(X,_).
    X = a(b(X, _A), _),
    Y = b(X, _A).

    Bye





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