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El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:53:48 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
I can't think of any words that end with glottal stop in my English.
I am still awaiting words that end with a 'yes' vowel.
OK. Maybe I should have said "silent consonant".
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
On 29/09/2025 11:48 a.m., The True Melissa wrote:
In article <10bahrk$25rbt$1
@dont-email.me>,
larry@invalid.ca says...
"Yeah" actually does have a meaning. It means "yes".
It's pronounced with the same vowel as "hat".
I don't pronounce them with
the same vowel sound. I give
it the same e-sound as in
"Ben" or "met."
Everyone: How did people
pronounce "yea," back in
Shakespeare's day? People
today tend to read it out
like "yay," but is that
right?
Melissa
My sources are unanimous that "yay" is the only present day
pronunciation. The history of its pronunciation, however, is far from simple. I won't even attempt to summarize OED's lengthy discussion.
But one thing they mention is that in Shakespeare's day "yea" was a
rhyme for the name of the letter "E". That would have been something
like "ay" (phonetically [e]). Today they do not rhyme. It is the "E" development (to something like "ee" [i]) that is regular. The fact that "yea" has not followed this path is the puzzle. Dialects may have had something to do with it.
El Tue, 30 Sep 2025 07:54:15 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribi||:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:53:48 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
I can't think of any words that end with glottal stop in my English.
I am still awaiting words that end with a 'yes' vowel.
OK. Maybe I should have said "silent consonant".
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
Actually, isn't "ballet" an English word now?
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:59:41 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
So you actually hear the yes vowel in the Beatles' song?
I don't. I hear the 'hat' vowel.
I can't even imagine that. Maybe in SA.
On 2025-09-30 05:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Tue, 30 Sep 2025 07:54:15 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribi||:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:53:48 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
I can't think of any words that end with glottal stop in my English.
I am still awaiting words that end with a 'yes' vowel.
OK. Maybe I should have said "silent consonant".
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
Actually, isn't "ballet" an English word now?
It is, as are bidet and gourmet, but neither of those have the 'yes'
vowel in my English.
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:53:48 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
I can't think of any words that end with glottal stop in my English.
I am still awaiting words that end with a 'yes' vowel.
OK. Maybe I should have said "silent consonant".
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
Mind, in my case, the dialect is a mixture of Midlands (Brummy if you
like), which is a pretty "lazy" dialect and the SE with it's heavily
glottal stopped tendencies, "'Allo Joh(n), goh a noo moh ah?".
I can't think of any words that end with-a glottal stop in my
English.
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
WE don't do that, the foreigners do. The French threw away those final consonants centuries ago. With typical English perversity, we correctly replicate the sound (those words end in vowels in both languages), but
keep the archaic spelling.
Thread swerve: I vaguely remember having a frustrating conference call
with some Americans after they bought our company (Dr Solomon's). I was in >the process of McAfee-ising our product and I mentioned the command line >option "pause". Not one of them had a clue what I was talking about.
And of course they insisted on pronouncing my name as "Paal".
In article <pan$b2672$1a1c8595$98b0a614$9c245f5a@gmail.com>,
Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
Thread swerve: I vaguely remember having a frustrating conference call
with some Americans after they bought our company (Dr Solomon's). I was
in the process of McAfee-ising our product and I mentioned the command
line option "pause". Not one of them had a clue what I was talking
about.
And of course they insisted on pronouncing my name as "Paal".
Were they from California?
El Tue, 30 Sep 2025 23:14:09 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
On 2025-09-30 05:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Tue, 30 Sep 2025 07:54:15 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribi||:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:53:48 -0600, lar3ryca escribi||:
I can't think of any words that end with glottal stop in my English. >>>>> I am still awaiting words that end with a 'yes' vowel.
OK. Maybe I should have said "silent consonant".
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
Actually, isn't "ballet" an English word now?
It is, as are bidet and gourmet, but neither of those have the 'yes'
vowel in my English.
Am I right in saying that this is purely a rhotic issue? Care, bear, hair, despair etc. in AmE would have an audible r at the end?
Thread swerve: I vaguely remember having a frustrating conference call
with some Americans after they bought our company (Dr Solomon's). I was in the process of McAfee-ising our product and I mentioned the command line option "pause". Not one of them had a clue what I was talking about.
And of course they insisted on pronouncing my name as "Paal".
Den 01.10.2025 kl. 10.58 skrev Ross Clark:
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
WE don't do that, the foreigners do. The French threw away those final
consonants centuries ago. With typical English perversity, we
correctly replicate the sound (those words end in vowels in both
languages), but keep the archaic spelling.
I doubt that "bide" and "gourme" would inspire the correct pronunciation.
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi<:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that youI don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was
pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?
unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e sound. Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
On 2/10/2025 4:40 a.m., Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 01.10.2025 kl. 10.58 skrev Ross Clark:
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
WE don't do that, the foreigners do. The French threw away those final
consonants centuries ago. With typical English perversity, we
correctly replicate the sound (those words end in vowels in both
languages), but keep the archaic spelling.
I doubt that "bide" and "gourme" would inspire the correct pronunciation.
But the French spellings are equally useless for that. They are there to remind us that we are sophisticated people who know a lot of French
words. Spelling "biday" and "gourmay" would defeat that purpose.
In article <pan$b2672$1a1c8595$98b0a614$9c245f5a@gmail.com>, Paul
Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
Thread swerve: I vaguely remember having a frustrating conference
call with some Americans after they bought our company (Dr
Solomon's). I was in the process of McAfee-ising our product and I
mentioned the command line option "pause". Not one of them had a
clue what I was talking about.
And of course they insisted on pronouncing my name as "Paal".
Were they from California? That's one of the places the COT-CAUGHT
merger has progressed the most.[1]
-GAWollman
[1] Keeping in mind that most AmE speakers have the FATHER-BOTHER
merger, which is the same vowel as COT.
Off the top of my head, the unrhymable words I can think of are
"orange," "triumphant," and "yeah." I like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the name of a psychedelic band.
In article <10bepbe$3897k$1
@dont-email.me>,
benlizro@ihug.co.nz says...
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi||:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that youI don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was
pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?
unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e sound. >>> Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
I asked myself what rhymed
with "yeah," and the first
thing I thought of was
"bleah." That's more of a
disgusted noise than a word,
though.
Off the top of my head, the
unrhymable words I can think
of are "orange,"
"triumphant," and "yeah."
I--
like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the
name of a psychedelic band.
Melissa
? I thought it was because English doesn't have any
other word for bidet.
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
In article <10bepbe$3897k$1
@dont-email.me>,
benlizro@ihug.co.nz says...
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi<:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that youI don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was
pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?
unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e sound.
Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
I asked myself what rhymed
with "yeah," and the first
thing I thought of was
"bleah." That's more of a
disgusted noise than a word,
though.
Off the top of my head, the
unrhymable words I can think
of are "orange,"
"triumphant," and "yeah." I
like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the
name of a psychedelic band.
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
In article <10bepbe$3897k$1
@dont-email.me>,
benlizro@ihug.co.nz says...
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi||:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that youI don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was
pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?
unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e sound. >>>> Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
I asked myself what rhymed
with "yeah," and the first
thing I thought of was
"bleah." That's more of a
disgusted noise than a word,
though.
Off the top of my head, the
unrhymable words I can think
of are "orange,"
"triumphant," and "yeah." I
like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the
name of a psychedelic band.
One Triumphant Orange isn't enough for you?
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi||:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of
FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
On 02/10/25 17:57, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi||:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of
FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
In this place it's usually called the CAUGHT vowel.
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 20:20:19 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi||:
On 02/10/25 17:57, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi||:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of
FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
In this place it's usually called the CAUGHT vowel.
I'm surprised. I can hear in my head an American saying "I card a fish today".
On 02/10/25 05:12, The True Melissa wrote:
Off the top of my head, the unrhymable words I can think of are
"orange," "triumphant," and "yeah." I like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the name of a psychedelic band.
Oranges, oranges,
There ain't no rhyme for oranges
So stick that in your porringers
And hang it on your door hinges
There ain't no rhyme for oranges.
El Wed, 01 Oct 2025 23:26:52 +0100, Janet escribi||:
? I thought it was because English doesn't have any
other word for bidet.
Yeah, bumwasher just doesn't sound right.
Peter Moylan:
On 02/10/25 05:12, The True Melissa wrote:
Off the top of my head, the unrhymable words I can think of are
"orange," "triumphant," and "yeah." I like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the name of a psychedelic band.
Meh.
These are the only two words found in a CUBE search for word-final /E/:
<http://seas3.elte.hu/cube/index.pl?&origenc=on&t=E%23>
Oranges, oranges,
There ain't no rhyme for oranges
So stick that in your porringers
And hang it on your door hinges
There ain't no rhyme for oranges.
Donald, the Duck of Orange,
Was equipped with a miserable four-inch,
But technique in a keyhole
Developed his P-hole
'Til at last it got caught in the door-hinge.
Peter Moylan:
On 02/10/25 05:12, The True Melissa wrote:
Off the top of my head, the unrhymable words I can think of are
"orange," "triumphant," and "yeah." I like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the name of a psychedelic band.
Meh.
These are the only two words found in a CUBE search for word-final /E/:
<http://seas3.elte.hu/cube/index.pl?&origenc=on&t=E%23>
Oranges, oranges,
There ain't no rhyme for oranges
So stick that in your porringers
And hang it on your door hinges
There ain't no rhyme for oranges.
Donald, the Duck of Orange,
Was equipped with a miserable four-inch,
-a-a But technique in a keyhole
-a-a Developed his P-hole
'Til at last it got caught in the door-hinge.
On 02/10/25 17:57, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi||:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of
FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
In this place it's usually called the CAUGHT vowel.
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 20:20:19 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi<:
On 02/10/25 17:57, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi<:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none of
FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
In this place it's usually called the CAUGHT vowel.
I'm surprised. I can hear in my head an American saying "I card a fish today".
Paul Carmichael suggested that ...
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 20:20:19 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi<:
On 02/10/25 17:57, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:58:40 +1000, Peter Moylan escribi<:
The same vowel as COT in AmE, yes. But for many of us none
of FATHER-BOTHER-COT covers the vowel in "Paul".
What do we call it? "Non-rhotic OR"?
In this place it's usually called the CAUGHT vowel.
I'm surprised. I can hear in my head an American saying "I card a
fish today".
An American is unlikely to end "caught" with a D sound. And you must
have no R at all left in card if cot sounds like card to you.
On 2025-10-02 01:56, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Wed, 01 Oct 2025 23:26:52 +0100, Janet escribi||:
? I thought it was because English doesn't have any
other word for bidet.
Yeah, bumwasher just doesn't sound right.
How about ass-splasher, or for the non-rhotic, arse-warsher?
There are two essential differences between the D and T sounds: the
voicing, and the aspiration. In practice we tend to notice only one of
those aspects, and ignore the other. That can lead to cross-dialect >mishearing, where a T is heard as a D, or the opposite.
On 02/10/2025 at 21:36, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-10-02 01:56, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Wed, 01 Oct 2025 23:26:52 +0100, Janet escribi||:
-a-a-a ? I thought it was because English doesn't have any
other word for bidet.
Yeah, bumwasher just doesn't sound right.
How about ass-splasher, or for the non-rhotic, arse-warsher?
bum spa?
Or, up here in the north, foot spa?
On 2025-10-02 08:50:56 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
In article <10bepbe$3897k$1
@dont-email.me>,
benlizro@ihug.co.nz says...
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi<:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that you >>>>>>> pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?I don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was >>>>>> unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e >>>>> sound.
Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
I asked myself what rhymed
with "yeah," and the first
thing I thought of was
"bleah." That's more of a
disgusted noise than a word,
though.
Off the top of my head, the
unrhymable words I can think
of are "orange,"
"triumphant," and "yeah." I
like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the
name of a psychedelic band.
One Triumphant Orange isn't enough for you?
One too many
On 03/10/2025 14:52, Chris Elvidge wrote:
On 02/10/2025 at 21:36, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-10-02 01:56, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Wed, 01 Oct 2025 23:26:52 +0100, Janet escribi<:
aaa ? I thought it was because English doesn't have any
other word for bidet.
Yeah, bumwasher just doesn't sound right.
How about ass-splasher, or for the non-rhotic, arse-warsher?
bum spa?
Or, up here in the north, foot spa?
Sock spa?
I've been to Bath Spa. You've now put me off the place.
In article <10bnr5h$1gldr$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
There are two essential differences between the D and T sounds: the
voicing, and the aspiration. In practice we tend to notice only one of
those aspects, and ignore the other. That can lead to cross-dialect
mishearing, where a T is heard as a D, or the opposite.
Also, AmE (maybe other Englishes too) doesn't actually distinguish
them in word-final positions: both /d/ and /t/ are normally unvoiced,
and the actual phonetic distinction is made on the length of the
preceding vowel. No way to demonstrate this without getting deep into spectrograms, though.
on 10/2/2025, Athel Cornish-Bowden supposed :
On 2025-10-02 08:50:56 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
In article <10bepbe$3897k$1
@dont-email.me>,
benlizro@ihug.co.nz says...
On 29/09/2025 11:07 p.m., Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:12:29 +1300, Ross Clark escribi<:
On 29/09/2025 3:36 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
<attributions might be wrong>
I can't think of any, offhand. Care to supply more words that you >>>>>>> pronounce with a terminal 'yes' vowel?I don't have any in MyEng; that's what I meant by saying "yeah" was >>>>>> unique.
I don't understand this. There are tons of words that end with an e >>>>> sound.
Well, single syllable words, anyway.
Pet, vet, met, net etc.
Those words end with /t/.
I asked myself what rhymed
with "yeah," and the first
thing I thought of was
"bleah." That's more of a
disgusted noise than a word,
though.
Off the top of my head, the
unrhymable words I can think
of are "orange,"
"triumphant," and "yeah." I
like the sound of Orange,
Triumphant, and Yeah as the
name of a psychedelic band.
One Triumphant Orange isn't enough for you?
One too many
Maybe just one too many not from the Low Countries.
On 2/10/2025 4:40 a.m., Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 01.10.2025 kl. 10.58 skrev Ross Clark:
You know, like we do with foreign words like bidet, gourmet etc.
WE don't do that, the foreigners do. The French threw away those final
consonants centuries ago. With typical English perversity, we
correctly replicate the sound (those words end in vowels in both
languages), but keep the archaic spelling.
I doubt that "bide" and "gourme" would inspire the correct pronunciation.
But the French spellings are equally useless for that. They are there to remind us that we are sophisticated people who know a lot of French
words. Spelling "biday" and "gourmay" would defeat that purpose.