• Re: Rapture

    From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 30 13:06:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Richard Tobin <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    In article <10bf4ki$3b0qf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
    72 was also the limit for Fortran IV programs. I think it was also the
    line length for a teletypewriter.

    Fortran inherited a convention of reserving the last 8 columns on an 80-column punched card for a sequence number, leaving 72 for the
    statement. The sequence number allowed an automatic card sorter to
    re-sort a deck of cards if it was dropped, though I don't recall ever
    seeing a Fortran program with sequence numbers.

    Common practice in those far off days
    was to puch the sequence number of the cards
    only in final completed versions
    that were put away for archival purposes.
    Too much of a nuisance when developing.
    Work in progress was safeguarded by drawing a diagonal line
    over the pack,


    Jan
    (as I have been told by someone really old)
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From s|b@me@privacy.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 30 16:45:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 28 Sep 2025 11:56:39 -0700, The True Melissa wrote:

    Melissa, still stuck
    with short lines and
    still apologetic

    You can ask help for this setting in either news.software.readers or
    through one of the newsgroups on the GRC newsserver. (Steve Gibson is maintaining MicroPlanet Gravity.)

    <https://www.grctech.com/discussions.htm>

    No need to apologize although for me personally, it's hard to read. I
    have the same problem with poems, even in my native tongue. I've set my
    word wrap to 72 lines; I vaguely remember an RFC advising this length.
    --
    s|b
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 30 17:22:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <ks3qqlxkoh.ln2
    @news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
    @ducksburg.com says...
    Yes, and most of them are considered better than the first one,
    although you need to read that one for the set-up of the universe.


    Do you really think so? Most
    of the ones I recall contain
    the Discworld basics needed
    for that story, as well as at
    least one reference to large
    elephants and a turtle
    holding up the Disc itself.


    Melissa
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Oct 1 11:39:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 01/10/25 10:22, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <ks3qqlxkoh.ln2 @news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
    @ducksburg.com says...

    Yes, and most of them are considered better than the first one,
    although you need to read that one for the set-up of the universe.

    Do you really think so? Most of the ones I recall contain the
    Discworld basics needed for that story, as well as at least one
    reference to large elephants and a turtle holding up the Disc
    itself.

    I've read all of the Discworld novels now, but not in the order they
    were written. Reading them in the "wrong" order doesn't seem to have
    mattered, because they are all self-contained.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Wed Oct 1 12:56:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-01, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 01/10/25 10:22, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <ks3qqlxkoh.ln2 @news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
    @ducksburg.com says...

    Yes, and most of them are considered better than the first one,
    although you need to read that one for the set-up of the universe.

    Do you really think so? Most of the ones I recall contain the
    Discworld basics needed for that story, as well as at least one
    reference to large elephants and a turtle holding up the Disc
    itself.

    Well, when I decided to start reading Pratchett, the first guide I
    came across recommended starting with it. But maybe you're right.


    I've read all of the Discworld novels now, but not in the order they
    were written. Reading them in the "wrong" order doesn't seem to have mattered, because they are all self-contained.

    True, although I think some subsequences of the books make a bit more
    sense in the right order, like the Moist von Lipwig line. But again,
    that may be cognitive bias influenced by reading guides.
    --
    Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water,
    or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol? ---General Ripper
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Wed Oct 1 20:16:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 01/10/2025 12:56, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2025-10-01, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 01/10/25 10:22, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <ks3qqlxkoh.ln2 @news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
    @ducksburg.com says...

    Yes, and most of them are considered better than the first one,
    although you need to read that one for the set-up of the universe.

    Do you really think so? Most of the ones I recall contain the
    Discworld basics needed for that story, as well as at least one
    reference to large elephants and a turtle holding up the Disc
    itself.

    Well, when I decided to start reading Pratchett, the first guide I
    came across recommended starting with it. But maybe you're right.

    When I started to read Pratchett the reading order was not an issue,
    there was only that one book.
    I read the next three or four in the order they were published, but
    after that any sense of order was abandoned (but not the books).>

    I've read all of the Discworld novels now, but not in the order they
    were written. Reading them in the "wrong" order doesn't seem to have
    mattered, because they are all self-contained.

    True, although I think some subsequences of the books make a bit more
    sense in the right order, like the Moist von Lipwig line. But again,
    that may be cognitive bias influenced by reading guides.


    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 08:40:47 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <VDBCQ.36$o3V9.18
    @fx14.ams1>, not@home.com
    says...
    I used Gravity for around a decade, but one day it just failed to open.
    I uninstalled, re-installed, and tried everything I could think of but nothing worked.
    I eventually moved to Thunderbird which is... OK but was always a
    distress purchase (despite not costing any money).


    Huh. It's not supported any
    longer, so I guess you're
    just stuck.

    I'm hoping against hope for a
    revival of quality Usenet,
    now that Google Groups is
    gone. If by some miracle it
    happens, maybe we'll see some
    new clients.


    Melissa

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 16:24:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 02.10.2025 kl. 14.40 skrev The True Melissa:

    I'm hoping against hope for a
    revival of quality Usenet,
    now that Google Groups is
    gone. If by some miracle it
    happens, maybe we'll see some
    new clients.

    I doubt it. People have moved to webbased fora, and they do not know
    that Usenet exists. When I first got an internet connection, the
    provider supplied a dvd with a browser (Netscape Navigator 3) and
    explanations about e-mail, newsgroups and the web (crippled as it was
    back then). You couldn't get an internet account without learning about Usenet.

    Today you just get a hole to plug your router into.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 17:43:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 26/09/2025 21:36, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 20:29, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    <snip>

    I think the meridian marker on the pavement is still there in Paris -
    if you know where to look (I wouldn't).

    Try 61 avenue de l'Observatoire (14th arrondissement).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_meridian


    I wonder how gravity is holding up in the Meridian Room of the Paris Observatoire? I'd hate to have to move that line a hundred meters east.





    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 17:14:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 02/10/2025 16:43, occam wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 21:36, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 20:29, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    <snip>

    I think the meridian marker on the pavement is still there in Paris -
    if you know where to look (I wouldn't).

    Try 61 avenue de l'Observatoire (14th arrondissement).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_meridian


    I wonder how gravity is holding up in the Meridian Room of the Paris Observatoire? I'd hate to have to move that line a hundred meters east.

    Actually it's not that hard. The line is etched into steel, and
    there's this little snib thing; if you de-snib it, the whole
    thing retracts into its case just like a Stanley tape, and then
    it's hi-ho and off to La Rue du Fauborg Saint-Jacques to unroll
    it again.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 17:56:06 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <10bm1uu$120j8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    I doubt it. People have moved to webbased fora, and they do not know
    that Usenet exists.

    There are plenty of people who do, but still don't use it.

    Newer social media offer one thing that many people believe to be of
    paramount importance: retroactive moderation. Usenet doesn't (other
    than cancel messages, many of which will be ignored).

    The moderation model of Usenet is that posts to moderated groups are
    subject to editorial selection prior to publication. The moderation
    model of basically all social media invented since is that all posts
    are subject to deletion by the site's owners at any time after
    publication, if someone complains, and they compete amongst each other
    on the basis of which complaints they will actually listen to.

    Before the ISP industry, most Usenet sites were either private
    businesses that used Unix (AT&T, obviously, but also Apollo, Apple,
    DEC, HP, Kodak, Sun, Xerox, various defense contractors), government
    agencies that used Unix workstations rather than IBM mainframes (most
    notably the Center for Seismic Studies), and universities. All of
    these had expectations of how their staff/students would behave in
    public, and it was understood that a complaint to the site's operator
    would get someone who was being disruptive or offensive a stern
    talking-to. Then came the ISP industry, who undertook no such
    responsibility for their paying users' behavior, and unmoderated
    groups became a noisy free-for-all, full of obnoxious people who drove
    away many of the most valued contributors. As a result (the spam
    problem didn't help), Usenet has gone from 10,000 articles an hour at
    its early-2000s peak to well below 10,000 articles a day.

    alt.usage.english is one of the few survivors, and one of the busiest
    groups (excluding binaries, which I don't carry here). The last 90
    days[1] of the text newsgroups is around 456,000 articles, which is
    just over 5,000 articles per day. rec.arts.sf.written *alone* used to
    be around 250-300 articles per day.

    -GAWollman

    [1] That's what my default expiration is set to; I'm just looking at
    my local news spool here.
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Aidan Kehoe@kehoea@parhasard.net to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 19:15:38 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Ar an dara l|i de m|! Deireadh F||mhair, scr|!obh Garrett Wollman:

    In article <10bm1uu$120j8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    I doubt it. People have moved to webbased fora, and they do not know
    that Usenet exists.

    There are plenty of people who do, but still don't use it.

    Newer social media offer one thing that many people believe to be of paramount importance: retroactive moderation. Usenet doesn't (other
    than cancel messages, many of which will be ignored).

    For you, who are the many people in question? The moderators? The owners of the sites? The readers?
    --
    rCyAs I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stoutrCO
    (C. Moore)
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 21:00:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-02 17:56:06 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:


    [ rCa ]


    alt.usage.english is one of the few survivors, and one of the busiest
    groups (excluding binaries, which I don't carry here).

    yes, and with very few crackpots and trolls (unless I have them all killfiled).

    The last 90
    days[1] of the text newsgroups is around 456,000 articles, which is
    just over 5,000 articles per day. rec.arts.sf.written *alone* used to
    be around 250-300 articles per day.
    --
    Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly
    in England until 1987.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 19:02:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <87cy756ugl.fsf@parhasard.net>,
    Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:

    Ar an dara l|i de m|! Deireadh F||mhair, scr|!obh Garrett Wollman:

    Newer social media offer one thing that many people believe to be of paramount importance: retroactive moderation. Usenet doesn't (other
    than cancel messages, many of which will be ignored).

    For you, who are the many people in question? The moderators? The owners of the
    sites? The readers?

    Basically anyone who Has Opinions about how to make social media safe
    and usable in the 21st century and has written about it where I can
    read it, including a number of people I know personally who have PhDs
    in human-computer interaction. You can either have small communities,
    or you can have retroactive moderation; you can't simultaneously be
    big and have no technical means to enforce community standards.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 2 23:00:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 2025-10-02 17:56:06 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:


    [ rCa ]


    alt.usage.english is one of the few survivors, and one of the busiest groups (excluding binaries, which I don't carry here).

    yes, and with very few crackpots and trolls (unless I have them all killfiled).

    I have no killfile, and also see few trolls/cackpots.
    The few there are, like the newly appeared 'Natural Philosopher',
    mostly come in through misplaced crossposting,

    Jan



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Fri Oct 3 08:03:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 02/10/2025 18:14, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 02/10/2025 16:43, occam wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 21:36, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 20:29, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    <snip>

    I think the meridian marker on the pavement is still there in Paris -
    if you know where to look (I wouldn't).

    Try 61 avenue de l'Observatoire (14th arrondissement).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_meridian


    I wonder how gravity is holding up in the Meridian Room of the Paris
    Observatoire? I'd hate to have to move that line a hundred meters east.

    Actually it's not that hard. The line is etched into steel, and there's
    this little snib thing; if you de-snib it, the whole thing retracts into
    its case just like a Stanley tape, and then it's hi-ho and off to La Rue
    du Fauborg Saint-Jacques to unroll it again.


    Have you seen the photo and the length of the French Meridian? I don't
    think your method is as easy as you suggest. It would have to go through
    the Boulangerie Fauborg, through the living room of Mme LeFevre at 42
    Rue Fauborg, past the outside toilet at no. 44a into the Cafe
    Saint-Jacques. Not as easy as you think.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Fri Oct 3 07:40:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 03/10/2025 07:03, occam wrote:
    On 02/10/2025 18:14, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 02/10/2025 16:43, occam wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 21:36, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 26/09/2025 20:29, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    <snip>

    I think the meridian marker on the pavement is still there in Paris - >>>>> if you know where to look (I wouldn't).

    Try 61 avenue de l'Observatoire (14th arrondissement).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_meridian


    I wonder how gravity is holding up in the Meridian Room of the Paris
    Observatoire? I'd hate to have to move that line a hundred meters east.

    Actually it's not that hard. The line is etched into steel, and there's
    this little snib thing; if you de-snib it, the whole thing retracts into
    its case just like a Stanley tape, and then it's hi-ho and off to La Rue
    du Fauborg Saint-Jacques to unroll it again.


    Have you seen the photo and the length of the French Meridian? I don't
    think your method is as easy as you suggest. It would have to go through
    the Boulangerie Fauborg, through the living room of Mme LeFevre at 42
    Rue Fauborg, past the outside toilet at no. 44a into the Cafe
    Saint-Jacques. Not as easy as you think.

    All fair points. Alternatively, we can go a bit further east ---
    250 miles, say --- and use it to reinforce the border with
    Germany to help guard against the next invasion. Admittedly it
    would be the only meridian in the world at 45 degrees to the
    Equator, and the sharp right turn between Berg and Au am Rhein
    would be another first for spherical geometry, but Mme LeFevre
    will be able to complete her 'Nous serons tous assassin|-s dans
    nos lits' sampler in relative peace and quiet.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 4 15:02:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <10bf2eg$31ik$1
    @usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
    wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.ed
    u says...
    He was a womanizer, known for making unwanted advances on pretty much
    every younger woman at any event when his wife wasn't around. Every
    woman in SF was advised not to be alone in an elevator with him. The metaphor of the "missing stair" (or as I've heard it, "broken stair")
    was coined long after he died, but lots of people agreed that it
    describes well how the science-fiction community dealt with him.


    That's disappointing, but I
    take it as a reminder that
    we're all only human. People
    have faults, often terrible
    faults, and also have good
    qualities. Everyone's a whole
    package.

    IIRC, Theodore Sturgeon wrote
    often on the topic of love,
    and his more fervent fans
    sometimes said that Sturgeon
    taught them how to love.
    Sturgeon's real love life was
    an unstable mess of hopping
    from woman to woman, but his
    ideas still helped people.


    Melissa

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 4 21:40:17 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 04.10.2025 kl. 21.02 skrev The True Melissa:

    IIRC, Theodore Sturgeon wrote
    often on the topic of love,
    and his more fervent fans
    sometimes said that Sturgeon
    taught them how to love.
    Sturgeon's real love life was
    an unstable mess of hopping
    from woman to woman, but his
    ideas still helped people.

    Hopping from person to person doesn't necessarily involve dishonest
    behaviour or abuse.

    But I know nothing about Theodore Sturgeon.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From ram@ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 4 19:42:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
    sometimes said that Sturgeon
    taught them how to love.
    Sturgeon's real love life was
    an unstable mess of hopping
    from woman to woman, but his
    ideas still helped people.

    On of R. D. Laing's son's commented:

    |It was ironic that my father became
    |well-known as a family psychiatrist,
    |when, in the meantime, he had nothing
    |to do with his own family. ( . . . )
    |he confused liberalism with neglect

    , and he recounts one of Laing's rare
    visits to their new home in Glasgow
    when, having argued with his mother,
    he took out his anger by beating his
    daughter, Karen.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 4 16:04:13 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <characters-
    20250930015623@ram.dialup.fu-
    berlin.de>, ram@zedat.fu-
    berlin.de says...
    A typewriter manual from around 1890 suggests to me that
    a line back then was about 55 characters, judging from the
    examples they show in it.


    Every typewriter I ever used,
    starting around 1976, had
    movable stops for the line
    beginning and line end. Some
    had another movable stop to
    mark a tab, which others
    expected you to do tabs by
    hand with spaces. I recall
    having them at about 60
    characters per line.

    I don't know about the ones
    older than that, though.


    Melissa

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 5 16:15:58 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 04.10.2025 kl. 21.02 skrev The True Melissa:

    IIRC, Theodore Sturgeon wrote
    often on the topic of love,
    and his more fervent fans
    sometimes said that Sturgeon
    taught them how to love.
    Sturgeon's real love life was
    an unstable mess of hopping
    from woman to woman, but his
    ideas still helped people.

    Hopping from person to person doesn't necessarily involve dishonest behaviour or abuse.

    But I know nothing about Theodore Sturgeon.

    He is the author of 'Sturgeon's Law',
    which says that 90% of everything is crap.
    (or a more forceful term)

    Perhaps he also applied his law to women,
    and never met the tenth,

    Jan

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 5 14:20:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <1rjqd4a.1sfupjj1xj1za8N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
    J. J. Lodder <jjlxa32@xs4all.nl> wrote:

    But I know nothing about Theodore Sturgeon.

    He is the author of 'Sturgeon's Law',
    which says that 90% of everything is crap.
    (or a more forceful term)

    Or less forceful - he himself quoted it as "90% of everything is crud".

    -- Richard
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 5 21:45:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Richard Tobin <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    In article <1rjqd4a.1sfupjj1xj1za8N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
    J. J. Lodder <jjlxa32@xs4all.nl> wrote:

    But I know nothing about Theodore Sturgeon.

    He is the author of 'Sturgeon's Law',
    which says that 90% of everything is crap.
    (or a more forceful term)

    Or less forceful - he himself quoted it as "90% of everything is crud".

    By Wikipedia that is indeed the first published version,
    but wikip also says that this has generally been replaced
    by the 'crap' version, even in the OED. (which I cannot verify)

    Perhaps his editor was to blame for the 'crud' version,

    Jan



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 7 11:01:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 24/09/2025 14:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 24/09/25 21:32, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2025-09-24, occam wrote:

    I am currently reading Robert Heinlein's book Job, where The
    Rapture is a significant theme running throughout his book.

    I tried to read that a while back, found it dull, & didn't get very
    far through it. What do you think of it?

    I can't speak for occam, but I'll throw in my opinion. One of Heinlein's
    best books.

    I just noticed - on the back cover - that Arthur C. Clarke agrees with
    you. "...Job is the best thing he's written for ages."



    Now that you mention it, it's a bit repetitive in the early
    parts, but it gets better towards the end.

    Best of all, it doesn't mention Lazarus Long.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 7 19:44:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 07/10/2025 10:01, occam wrote:
    On 24/09/2025 14:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 24/09/25 21:32, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2025-09-24, occam wrote:

    I am currently reading Robert Heinlein's book Job, where The
    Rapture is a significant theme running throughout his book.

    I tried to read that a while back, found it dull, & didn't get very
    far through it. What do you think of it?

    I can't speak for occam, but I'll throw in my opinion. One of Heinlein's
    best books.

    I just noticed - on the back cover - that Arthur C. Clarke agrees with
    you. "...Job is the best thing he's written for ages."


    Is a back-handed compliment?

    "It's not very good, but it's better than the crap he has been churning
    out for the last decade."
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From lar3ryca@larry@invalid.ca to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 7 15:40:20 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-07 12:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 07/10/2025 10:01, occam wrote:
    On 24/09/2025 14:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 24/09/25 21:32, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2025-09-24, occam wrote:

    I am currently reading Robert Heinlein's book Job, where The
    Rapture is a significant theme running throughout his book.

    I tried to read that a while back, found it dull, & didn't get very
    far through it. What do you think of it?

    I can't speak for occam, but I'll throw in my opinion. One of Heinlein's >>> best books.

    I just noticed - on the back cover - that Arthur C. Clarke agrees with
    you.-a "...Job is the best thing he's written for ages."


    Is a back-handed compliment?

    "It's not very good, but it's better than the crap he has been churning
    out for the last decade."

    If I had said it, my intent would coincide with your guess.
    --
    The worst time to have a heart attack is during a game of charades.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 11 14:37:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 30/09/25 08:49, Garrett Wollman wrote:
    In article <10bf0bq$39hsa$7@dont-email.me>, lar3ryca
    <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
    On 2025-09-29 10:20, Garrett Wollman wrote:

    -GAWollman (who was a big Asimov nut as a middle-schooler and
    didn't understand what a creep he was until much later)

    I haven't heard that about him. In what way was he a creep?

    He was a womanizer, known for making unwanted advances on pretty
    much every younger woman at any event when his wife wasn't around.
    Every woman in SF was advised not to be alone in an elevator with
    him. The metaphor of the "missing stair" (or as I've heard it,
    "broken stair") was coined long after he died, but lots of people
    agreed that it describes well how the science-fiction community dealt
    with him.

    In many ways it's at odds with how he presented himself in writing,
    as if to suggest that he knew how he should behave, but would not do
    so unless Janet was there to "Oh, Isaac!" him on any sign of
    indiscretion.

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder" Asimov includes himself as a
    character. The depiction there suggests that he was well aware of his
    character flaws.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sat Oct 11 12:37:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 30/09/25 08:49, Garrett Wollman wrote:
    In article <10bf0bq$39hsa$7@dont-email.me>, lar3ryca
    <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
    On 2025-09-29 10:20, Garrett Wollman wrote:

    -GAWollman (who was a big Asimov nut as a middle-schooler and
    didn't understand what a creep he was until much later)

    I haven't heard that about him. In what way was he a creep?

    He was a womanizer, known for making unwanted advances on pretty
    much every younger woman at any event when his wife wasn't around.
    Every woman in SF was advised not to be alone in an elevator with
    him. The metaphor of the "missing stair" (or as I've heard it,
    "broken stair") was coined long after he died, but lots of people
    agreed that it describes well how the science-fiction community dealt
    with him.

    In many ways it's at odds with how he presented himself in writing,
    as if to suggest that he knew how he should behave, but would not do
    so unless Janet was there to "Oh, Isaac!" him on any sign of
    indiscretion.

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder" Asimov includes himself as a character. The depiction there suggests that he was well aware of his character flaws.

    That is the UK title.
    It is better known under its original title:
    'Murder at the ABA'
    There is a large wikiparticle on it <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_at_the_ABA>

    Jan
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 09:40:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 11/10/25 21:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder" Asimov includes himself as a
    character. The depiction there suggests that he was well aware of his
    character flaws.

    That is the UK title.
    It is better known under its original title:
    'Murder at the ABA'
    There is a large wikiparticle on it <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_at_the_ABA>

    Thanks. I had forgotten about the title change, which is why I
    incorrectly used an American spelling for the UK title.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 12:41:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <10cemd5$13p6e$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder"


    Thanks. I had forgotten about the title change, which is why I
    incorrectly used an American spelling for the UK title.

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    -- Richard
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 15:02:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

    In article <10cemd5$13p6e$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder"


    Thanks. I had forgotten about the title change, which is why I
    incorrectly used an American spelling for the UK title.

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).
    --
    Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly
    in England until 1987.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 15:50:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/10/2025 13:41, Richard Tobin wrote:
    there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed

    We followed it into a dark alley and kidnapped it. It's ours now,
    by right of eminent domain.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 18:53:31 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 15:02:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
    <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:
    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I did the same in my personal writing until MS Word forced me to
    change.

    Fifty years ago there was a TV series by Kenneth Clark called
    "Civilisation" and it looked wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 19:35:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-12 16:53:31 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 15:02:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
    <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:
    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I did the same in my personal writing until MS Word forced me to
    change.

    My LaTeX program (TeXShop) puts a dotted red line under every instance
    of "organized" (etc.) but I ignore it and it doesn't try to "correct"
    it when it generates a PDF file.

    Fifty years ago there was a TV series by Kenneth Clark called
    "Civilisation" and it looked wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong.

    +1
    --
    Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly
    in England until 1987.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 19:14:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-12, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    On 12/10/2025 13:41, Richard Tobin wrote:
    there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed

    We followed it into a dark alley and kidnapped it. It's ours now,
    by right of eminent domain.

    Are you alluding to the quote from James D Nicoll?

    "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
    English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
    words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
    to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
    --
    There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
    your wife. ---Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 19:15:38 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-12, Richard Tobin wrote:

    In article <10cemd5$13p6e$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    In the crime novel "Authorized Murder"


    Thanks. I had forgotten about the title change, which is why I
    incorrectly used an American spelling for the UK title.

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".


    Ha! Nice touch.
    --
    Bob Dylan knows
    And I bet Alan Freed did
    There are things in night
    That it's better not to behold
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 20:31:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 12/10/2025 19:14, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2025-10-12, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    On 12/10/2025 13:41, Richard Tobin wrote:
    there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed

    We followed it into a dark alley and kidnapped it. It's ours now,
    by right of eminent domain.

    Are you alluding to the quote from James D Nicoll?

    Yes, absolutely, although I had no idea of the source. If
    pressed, I'd have guessed at Pratchett.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 22:57:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

    On 12/10/2025 13:41, Richard Tobin wrote:
    there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed

    We followed it into a dark alley and kidnapped it. It's ours now,
    by right of eminent domain.

    And apart from that, it look so much better,

    Jan

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Oct 12 23:02:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

    On 12/10/2025 13:41, Richard Tobin wrote:
    there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed

    We followed it into a dark alley and kidnapped it. It's ours now,
    by right of eminent domain.

    And apart from that, it looks so much better,

    Jan
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 04:13:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 19:35:34 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
    <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 2025-10-12 16:53:31 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 15:02:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
    <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:
    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I did the same in my personal writing until MS Word forced me to
    change.

    My LaTeX program (TeXShop) puts a dotted red line under every instance
    of "organized" (etc.) but I ignore it and it doesn't try to "correct"
    it when it generates a PDF file.

    Fifty years ago there was a TV series by Kenneth Clark called
    "Civilisation" and it looked wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong.

    +1

    Forty years ago, when I went to work as an editor at the University of
    South Africa, I was told that their house style was -ise. Several
    South African newspapers (and British ones, like The Times) had
    changed to the -ise style in the previous decade.

    We used XyWrite III+ back then (which I still use sometimes) and it
    had a "British English" spelling dfictionary which had the -ise
    version.

    But XyWrite offered a choice of spelling dictionaries which were easy
    to load for each document. It had BrE and AmE dictionaries, and I
    modified the BrE one for my personal dictionary to have the -ize
    spellings. In MS-Word it was a much more clumsy process, and
    eventually I just went with the flow and adopted the -ise version.

    So Microsoft eventually forces people to do things *their* way.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 03:18:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 03:13, Steve Hayes wrote:

    <snip>

    So Microsoft eventually forces people to do things *their* way.

    "You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting," as
    Obi-Wan rightly said.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John Dunlop@dunlop.john@ymail.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 09:21:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Athel Cornish-Bowden:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of
    prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't give
    it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I use "-ize" endings, too, but write "analyse" rather than "analyze".
    The OED hedges its bets with a double headword, "analyse" first.
    --
    John
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Clark@benlizro@ihug.co.nz to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 21:46:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 9:21 p.m., John Dunlop wrote:
    Athel Cornish-Bowden:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of
    prescriptiveness says:

    -a-a But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is >>> -a-a in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    -a-a pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the >>> -a-a special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    -a-a opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    -a-a this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't give
    it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    On the contrary: The letter Z is considerably under-used in spelling, considering its frequency in speech. Many common words like is, was,
    phrase, nose, music, visor, reason, pleasant, miserable, etc. have /z/
    in them, but it's spelled with an <s>. Why?
    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a letter.
    Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?


    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK.-a I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I use "-ize" endings, too, but write "analyse" rather than "analyze".
    The OED hedges its bets with a double headword, "analyse" first.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John Dunlop@dunlop.john@ymail.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 10:07:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Ross Clark:

    On 13/10/2025 9:21 p.m., John Dunlop wrote:

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't give
    it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    On the contrary: The letter Z is considerably under-used in spelling, considering its frequency in speech. Many common words like is, was,
    phrase, nose, music, visor, reason, pleasant, miserable, etc. have /z/
    in them, but it's spelled with an <s>. Why?
    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a letter.
    Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    We seem to be agreeing. Z is under-used. If it weren't used in the
    suffix, it would be even more under-used.
    --
    John
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 11:12:53 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-13 08:21:02 +0000, John Dunlop said:

    Athel Cornish-Bowden:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of
    prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't
    give it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    I use "-ize" endings, too, but write "analyse" rather than "analyze".

    So do I; "catalyse" too, which comes up much more often in my writing.


    The OED hedges its bets with a double headword, "analyse" first.
    --
    Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 38 years; mainly
    in England until 1987.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 11:05:33 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a
    letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 20:01:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 11:05, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a
    letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".

    Nowadays there is more zeal for the zed.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kerr-Mudd, John@admin@127.0.0.1 to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 20:43:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 20:01:50 +0100
    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 13/10/2025 11:05, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a
    letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".

    Nowadays there is more zeal for the zed.

    Yet xenophobic starts with a 'z' [z]






    [z] unless maybe you don't like Princess Warriors
    --
    Bah, and indeed Humbug.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Clark@benlizro@ihug.co.nz to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 09:18:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 10:07 p.m., John Dunlop wrote:
    Ross Clark:

    On 13/10/2025 9:21 p.m., John Dunlop wrote:

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't give >>> it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    On the contrary: The letter Z is considerably under-used in spelling,
    considering its frequency in speech. Many common words like is, was,
    phrase, nose, music, visor, reason, pleasant, miserable, etc. have /z/
    in them, but it's spelled with an <s>. Why?
    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a letter.
    Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    We seem to be agreeing. Z is under-used. If it weren't used in the
    suffix, it would be even more under-used.

    Ah. I misread you as suggesting that -ize was its only legitimate use.

    This issue first intruded on my consciousness years ago when I served a
    term as Review Editor of a journal and learned that -ise was the house
    rule. In this we followed the New Zealand Government Style Book. I no
    longer have my original copy of the Style Book, with its dozens of
    penciled annotations about spellings which weren't covered by it, or
    where we didn't follow it. But a later edition which I do have (1995)
    proudly proclaims -ise as "a particularly distinctive area of New
    Zealand usage". I don't know why; I was happy to dismiss the problem
    from my consciousness when the job was over.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Clark@benlizro@ihug.co.nz to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 09:23:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 11:05 p.m., Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a
    letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".


    Thanks. I can't remember much about "Lear". What brought on this
    outburst? Was Kent mad too?
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 21:26:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 20:01, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 11:05, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as
    a letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".

    Nowadays there is more zeal for the zed.


    Shakespeare actually used a lot of zeds, but it's last by quite a
    long way:

    e 435948 ( 11.79%)
    t 323779 ( 8.76%)
    o 306078 ( 8.28%)
    a 284037 ( 7.68%)
    i 245080 ( 6.63%)
    s 242876 ( 6.57%)
    n 238192 ( 6.44%)
    h 233981 ( 6.33%)
    r 229872 ( 6.22%)
    l 165319 ( 4.47%)
    d 145222 ( 3.93%)
    u 126744 ( 3.43%)
    m 108618 ( 2.94%)
    y 92003 ( 2.49%)
    w 88201 ( 2.39%)
    c 83282 ( 2.25%)
    f 79031 ( 2.14%)
    g 66752 ( 1.81%)
    b 58965 ( 1.60%)
    p 55862 ( 1.51%)
    v 36845 ( 1.00%)
    k 34928 ( 0.94%)
    x 5000 ( 0.14%)
    j 4535 ( 0.12%)
    q 3577 ( 0.10%)
    z 1626 ( 0.04%)

    (The above table is case-blind - zeds and Zeds are all accounted
    for.)
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Heathfield@rjh@cpax.org.uk to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 22:21:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/2025 21:23, Ross Clark wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 11:05 p.m., Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as
    a letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".


    Thanks. I can't remember much about "Lear". What brought on this
    outburst? Was Kent mad too?

    Is loyalty to a madman madness?
    If so, then aye, Kent were mad.
    But if thou seekst honour,
    Courage, strength, and love,
    Look no further than this stalwart earl,
    Who follows his king beyond reason.

    `I have a journey, sir, shortly to go.
    My master calls me; I must not say no.'

    Mad he may have been, but if Kent were mad, 'twere a madness to
    admire.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 09:19:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 13/10/25 20:07, John Dunlop wrote:

    Z is under-used.

    I think you mean under-uzed.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From lar3ryca@larry@invalid.ca to alt.usage.english on Mon Oct 13 21:38:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-13 13:01, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 11:05, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as a
    letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".

    Nowadays there is more zeal for the zed.

    That sealz said zed problem.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message, however, a
    significant number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kerr-Mudd, John@admin@127.0.0.1 to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 11:56:31 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 09:19:30 +1100
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 13/10/25 20:07, John Dunlop wrote:

    Z is under-used.

    I think you mean under-uzed.

    Cue the "simplification of English" tale that deteriorates into incompreh^wgibberish by the end.

    (sample)

    https://www.ojohaven.com/fun/spelling.html
    --
    Bah, and indeed Humbug.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 13:27:23 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2025-10-13, John Dunlop wrote:

    Athel Cornish-Bowden:

    On 2025-10-12 12:41:07 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

    Assuming you are referring to "-ize", the OED in a rare episode of
    prescriptiveness says:

    But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is
    in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the
    pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the
    special French spelling [i.e. -ise] should be followed, in
    opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In
    this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize.

    I'm amused that they capitalize "Dictionary".

    To add to the etymological and phonetic grounds, the letter Z would
    seldom make an appearance if it weren't for the suffix. If we don't give
    it something to do, it'll spend all day zzzzz-ing.

    Yes, I blame M$ Word for popularizing the falsehood that -ize endings
    are not used in the UK. I always write -ize in all words where it's
    not obviously wrong (like advertise and surprise).

    To be fair, though, most people in the UK write "organise" and
    sometimes think I'm mixing AmE spellings in when I write
    "organize". It would help if common spellcheckers had (in addition to
    the usual en_GB, en_US, etc.) an "OUP English" option.


    I use "-ize" endings, too, but write "analyse" rather than "analyze".
    The OED hedges its bets with a double headword, "analyse" first.

    Well, there's no good reason for "analyze" (etc.); the suffix, meaning
    roughly "loosen" or "release", is "-lyser" in French, "-lysare" in
    Latin, and (IIRC) "-lysein" in classical Greek.
    --
    she's as beautiful as a foot,
    she heard someone say, the other day
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Tue Oct 14 15:19:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    u61;7600;1cOn 2025-10-13, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    On 13/10/2025 20:01, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 11:05, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 13/10/2025 09:46, Ross Clark wrote:

    Some English speakers, I think, are a bit phobic about <z> as
    a letter. Isn't there a Shakespeare quote about it somewhere?

    "Thou whoreson zed! thou unnecessary letter!"

    Kent, in "King Lear".

    Nowadays there is more zeal for the zed.


    Shakespeare actually used a lot of zeds, but it's last by quite a
    long way:

    e 435948 ( 11.79%)
    t 323779 ( 8.76%)
    o 306078 ( 8.28%)
    a 284037 ( 7.68%)
    i 245080 ( 6.63%)
    s 242876 ( 6.57%)
    n 238192 ( 6.44%)
    h 233981 ( 6.33%)
    r 229872 ( 6.22%)
    l 165319 ( 4.47%)
    d 145222 ( 3.93%)
    u 126744 ( 3.43%)
    m 108618 ( 2.94%)
    y 92003 ( 2.49%)
    w 88201 ( 2.39%)
    c 83282 ( 2.25%)
    f 79031 ( 2.14%)
    g 66752 ( 1.81%)
    b 58965 ( 1.60%)
    p 55862 ( 1.51%)
    v 36845 ( 1.00%)
    k 34928 ( 0.94%)
    x 5000 ( 0.14%)
    j 4535 ( 0.12%)
    q 3577 ( 0.10%)
    z 1626 ( 0.04%)

    (The above table is case-blind - zeds and Zeds are all accounted
    for.)

    Laurence Sterne's distribution (A Political Romance, A Sentimental
    Journey, and Tristram Shandy added together) is broadly similar:

    e 115017 11.46%
    t 97098 9.67%
    o 79760 7.95%
    a 78756 7.85%
    i 73917 7.36%
    n 69524 6.93%
    h 65386 6.51%
    s 64071 6.38%
    r 57682 5.75%
    d 40434 4.03%
    l 38319 3.82%
    u 30839 3.07%
    m 26914 2.68%
    c 25857 2.58%
    f 23765 2.37%
    w 22093 2.20%
    y 20391 2.03%
    g 18378 1.83%
    p 18341 1.83%
    b 15948 1.59%
    v 9395 0.94%
    k 7046 0.70%
    x 1982 0.20%
    q 1338 0.13%
    j 1192 0.12%
    z 400 0.04%
    --
    I am at the moment writing a lengthy indictment against our
    century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make
    an occasional cheese dip. ---Ignatius J Reilly
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2