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Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list:
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did
kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it >> was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list: >>
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Ar an s|-|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Athel Cornish-Bowden:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so
why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers.
I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" with h,
and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
There are plenty of legitimate seventeenth century hits in Google Books. Also for rCLan hardyrCY (also a French borrowing); but not for rCLan heartfelt.rCY It may be
a pronunciation that fell into disuse before the OED was written.
John WalkerrCOs pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it
was ever used it wasnrCOt common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list:
rCLHeir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.rCY
Melissa Hollingsworth hat am 26.08.2025 um 19:42 geschrieben:
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did
kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it
was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list: >>>
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and
I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Today it's not 1798. That brings me back to what I already wanted to ask
you: in which words with a silent initial h in 1798, according to John Walker, the written initial h is pronounced today?
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
Ar an so. lb is fiche de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh Athel Cornish-Bowden:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so
why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers.
I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
There are plenty of legitimate seventeenth century hits in Google Books.
Also for "an hardy" (also a French borrowing); but not for "an heartfelt."
It may be a pronunciation that fell into disuse before the OED was
written.
John Walker's pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it was ever used it wasn't common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list:
"Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome."
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
Ar an s|-|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic"
> come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so
> why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 >> > years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers.
> I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care >> > what he thought.
>
> The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
> with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
There are plenty of legitimate seventeenth century hits in Google Books.
Also for "an hardy" (also a French borrowing); but not for "an heartfelt." >> It may be a pronunciation that fell into disuse before the OED was
written.
John Walker's pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it >> was ever used it wasn't common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list: >>
"Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome."
Interesting.
How would you (and they) pronounce 'Holland/Hollander'?
As Hollander, like the Dutch and of course the Hollanders themselves,
or as 'Ollander, like the Belgians?
I pronounce the initial 'h' in herb, herbage, hospital humble and
humour.
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone
pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"?
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h
in "historic", so why "an historic"?
On 27/08/25 02:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone
except me
pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"?
I perceive three levels in initial h: silent, fully aspirated, and
marginal. For me "historic" is in the marginal class: slightly
aspirated, but not enough to removed the need for the "an".
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years
ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
On 26/08/2025 23:03, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 27/08/25 02:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:Can you give another example of a marginal h? Would 'histrionic' do?
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone
except me
pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"?
I perceive three levels in initial h: silent, fully aspirated, and
marginal. For me "historic" is in the marginal class: slightly
aspirated, but not enough to removed the need for the "an".
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in >"historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the
2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Melissa Hollingsworth hat am 26.08.2025 um 19:42 geschrieben:
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did
kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it
was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list: >>>
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital, >>> hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and
I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Today it's not 1798. That brings me back to what I already wanted to ask
you: in which words with a silent initial h in 1798, according to John Walker, the written initial h is pronounced today?
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
Does anyone speak of, or write about "an historical novel"?
Does anyone speak of, or write about "an historical novel"?
I pronounce it that way, but I seem to be in a minority here.
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
On 2025-08-26 13:12, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
Ar an so. lb is fiche de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
> historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h
> in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had
> anything to say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything.
> Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether
> Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
>
> The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" >> > with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
There are plenty of legitimate seventeenth century hits in Google Books. >> Also for "an hardy" (also a French borrowing); but not for "an heartfelt." >> It may be a pronunciation that fell into disuse before the OED was
written.
John Walker's pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so
if it was ever used it wasn't common then. He also gives initial /h/
for hardy. His exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a
fairly short list:
"Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital, >> hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome."
I pronounce the initial 'h' in herb, herbage, hospital humble and humour.
Interesting.
How would you (and they) pronounce 'Holland/Hollander'?
As Hollander, like the Dutch and of course the Hollanders themselves,
or as 'Ollander, like the Belgians?
I pronounce with the initial 'H', as does virtually everyone in the US
and Canada that I have heard say it.
And what to make of 'Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaitis' (the
oldest surviving Scottish play)?
On 8/26/2025 12:53 PM, Silvano wrote:
Melissa Hollingsworth hat am 26.08.2025 um 19:42 geschrieben:
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did
kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/
so if it
was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for
hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly
short list:
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage,
hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and >>> I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Today it's not 1798. That brings me back to what I already wanted to ask
you: in which words with a silent initial h in 1798, according to John
Walker, the written initial h is pronounced today?
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and
honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
Your teachers told you that? Honestly?
The dropping of the initial H is very characteristic for Belgian.Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux - but the French have two different
From French, 'Les Hollandais', where the H is mute.
Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux [...]
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and >>> honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
Your teachers told you that? Honestly?
That's how I remember it. I didn't register their voices. Perhaps they
also mentioned words based on those three, like heiress and honourable.
Please notice that I'm Italian and our teachers' main aim was to have us understand that the Italian habit of not pronouncing any initial h is
very bad when speaking English.
Le 27/08/2025 a 08:47, J. J. Lodder a ocrit :ion-de-certaines-lettres/la-prononciation-du-h-aspire>
The dropping of the initial H is very characteristic for Belgian.Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux - but the French have two different
From French, 'Les Hollandais', where the H is mute.
types of silent h, the h muet et the h aspiro...
<https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/22203/la-prononciation/prononciat
So it's /le hibou/ et /l'hirondelle/.
(This sort of thing is typical of our Gallic cousins.)
Melissa Hollingsworth hat am 26.08.2025 um 19:42 geschrieben:
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/ so if it
was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly short list:
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage, hospital, >> hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Today it's not 1798. That brings me back to what I already wanted to ask
you: in which words with a silent initial h in 1798, according to John Walker, the written initial h is pronounced today?
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
Le 27/08/2025 |a 08:47, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux - but the French have two different
The dropping of the initial H is very characteristic for Belgian.
From French, 'Les Hollandais', where the H is mute.
types of silent h, the h muet et the h aspir|-...
<https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/22203/la-prononciation/prononciation-de-certaines-lettres/la-prononciation-du-h-aspire>
So it's /le hibou/ et /l'hirondelle/.
(This sort of thing is typical of our Gallic cousins.)
[...] [1] In some cases [Flemings] even recycle vicious pre-WWII anti-semitic material with 'Ollander substituting for Jew.
Ar an seacht. lb is fiche de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh J. J. Lodder:
[...] [1] In some cases [Flemings] even recycle vicious pre-WWII anti-semitic material with 'Ollander substituting for Jew.
I imagine Jewish settlement of Dutch-speaking countries was dispoportionately north of Flanders?
On 27/08/25 18:03, Hibou wrote:
Le 27/08/2025 |a 08:47, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux - but the French have two different
The dropping of the initial H is very characteristic for Belgian.
From French, 'Les Hollandais', where the H is mute.
types of silent h, the h muet et the h aspir|-...
<https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/22203/la-prononciation/prononciation-de-certaines-lettres/la-prononciation-du-h-aspire>
So it's /le hibou/ et /l'hirondelle/.
(This sort of thing is typical of our Gallic cousins.)
It does let you see a small part of the history of the language. As I understand it, there used to be a time when the h aspir|- was genuinely aspir|-.
Looking back, I think I found it easy to know which words had the
liaison and which didn't. That's probably because in French one tends to learn nouns with their accompanying article
(A habit I should probably pick up in my learning Irish. In that--
language the definite article is the same for both genders, but the
article modifies the initial consonant of the following noun ... but
only for feminine nouns. It's probably the only good way of figuring out which nouns are feminine.)
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Remember when Athel Cornish-Bowden bragged outrageously? That was
Tuesday:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" >> come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so >> why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years
ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I
haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what >> he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" with h,
and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
uh historic sounds awkward to me, and ay historic sounds emphatic, so I
can see the appeal of the an/en historic route.
On 26/08/2025 at 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in "historic", so
why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to say about it 99 years
ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care what
he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" with h,
and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
But: how do you (not you personally) pronounce 'h'? With or without the sometimes initial 'h'. Aitch or haitch?
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen ><rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is >>gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
Jeff Barnett hat am 27.08.2025 um 04:51 geschrieben:
On 8/26/2025 12:53 PM, Silvano wrote:
Melissa Hollingsworth hat am 26.08.2025 um 19:42 geschrieben:
Verily, in article <87a53mgglv.fsf@parhasard.net>, did
kehoea@parhasard.net deliver unto us this message:
John Walker?s pronouncing dictionary of 1798 just gives initial /h/
so if it
was ever used it wasn?t common then. He also gives initial /h/ for
hardy. His
exceptions for pronunciation of written initial <h> is a fairly
short list:
?Heir, heiress, honestly, honour, honourable, herb, herbage,
hospital,
hostler, hour, humble, humour, humorous, humoursome.?
Interesting. I've seen both "hostler" and "ostler" in older writing, and >>>> I've been pronouncing the H when it's present.
Today it's not 1798. That brings me back to what I already wanted to ask >>> you: in which words with a silent initial h in 1798, according to John
Walker, the written initial h is pronounced today?
I had learnt that the written initial h is silent only in heir, hour and >>> honour. Were my teachers right? Have you noticed any changes since I
studied English at school, about 50 years ago?
Your teachers told you that? Honestly?
That's how I remember it. I didn't register their voices. Perhaps they
also mentioned words based on those three, like heiress and honourable.
Please notice that I'm Italian and our teachers' main aim was to have us understand that the Italian habit of not pronouncing any initial h is
very bad when speaking English.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
Le 26/08/2025 |a 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden a |-crit :
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in
"historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the
2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
I think the
rule is straightforward - 'an' if the 'h' is silent, 'a' if it's
pronounced - but some people seem to have difficulty with it.
And what to make of 'Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaitis' (the oldest
surviving Scottish play)?
<https://canongate.co.uk/books/156-ane-satyre-of-the-thrie-estaitis/>
<https://asls.org.uk/sixteenth-century-agit-prop/>
"Ah, well, the Scots..." you may say, and you'd have a point.
On 26/08/2025 at 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in
"historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the
2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
But: how do you (not you personally) pronounce 'h'? With or without the sometimes initial 'h'. Aitch or haitch?
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]
-a-a-a-a-a The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
Your teachers told you that? Honestly?
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and British >English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and British >English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]
The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:--
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]
The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is
gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]--
The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
On 27/08/2025 18:36, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:Steve was thinking of the difference between
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is >>>> gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]
-a-a-a-a-a The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
He was in hospital (UK)
and
He was in the hospital (US)
Interesting.
How would you (and they) pronounce 'Holland/Hollander'?
As Hollander, like the Dutch and of course the Hollanders themselves,
or as 'Ollander, like the Belgians?
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and British
English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
Thee difference is between "John is in hospital" (BrE) and "John is in
the hospital" (AmE).
Compare the ngrams "in hospital","in the hospital" for British and
American English.
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 26/08/2025 a 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden a ocrit :
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in
"historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to
say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the
2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'?
firstaclass and genuine.
On 27/08/25 12:10, Steve Hayes wrote:
Does anyone speak of, or write about "an historical novel"?
I pronounce it that way, but I seem to be in a minority here.
On 2025-08-27 17:36:27 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is >>>> gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
Maybe, but that's not the point, which is that in the UK we say "he's in hospital", where as in the USA they say "he's in the hospital."
If I heard someone say "a historic", I might well hear that as a synonym
of anachronistic - but I might be atypical.
On 2025-08-27 10:38:28 +0000, Peter Moylan said:iation-de-certaines-lettres/la-prononciation-du-h-aspire>
On 27/08/25 18:03, Hibou wrote:
Le 27/08/2025 a 08:47, J. J. Lodder a ocrit :
Ah yes, not to mention les Hiboux - but the French have two different
The dropping of the initial H is very characteristic for Belgian.
From French, 'Les Hollandais', where the H is mute.
types of silent h, the h muet et the h aspiro...
<https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/22203/la-prononciation/prononc
So it's /le hibou/ et /l'hirondelle/.
(This sort of thing is typical of our Gallic cousins.)
It does let you see a small part of the history of the language. As I understand it, there used to be a time when the h aspiro was genuinely aspiro.
Looking back, I think I found it easy to know which words had the
liaison and which didn't. That's probably because in French one tends to learn nouns with their accompanying article
That's what one is recommended to do, yes, but I'm not sure how many
people actually do it.
I still find myself guessing the gender a lot of the time. If there is
an obvious Spanish cognate I take that as a guide, because for many
examples the genders are easier to guess in Spanish. That occasionally
gives the wrong answer, for example with la banque/el banco, but
usually it works.
On 27/08/2025 18:36, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:Steve was thinking of the difference between
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital "An" is dominating until 1860 after
which it gradually decreases and is gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the
hospital".
[constructed]
The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
He was in hospital (UK) and He was in the hospital (US)
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first class and genuine.
Ar an seacht|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Chris Elvidge:
But: how do you (not you personally) pronounce 'h'? With or
without the sometimes initial 'h'. Aitch or haitch?
The name of the letter is a (Norman) French borrowing and its
pronunciation by most English speakers is /+c+-t-a/, your first option.
Those populations with strong Irish Catholic influence often
pronounce it /h+c+-t-a/, your second option. Neither is relevant to
AthelrCOs question.
In article <mh8v2jFcbdrU1@mid.individual.net>,
occam@nowhere.nix says...
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 26/08/2025 |a 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden a |-crit :
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in >>>> "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to >>>> say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the
2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic"
with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'?
Yes, perfect.
Pukka for me is absolutely
first-aclass and genuine.
You and Jamie Oliver.
To older Brits, it carries the whiff of Colonial
rectitude.
On 28/08/25 03:54, occam wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first class and genuine.
It is, but I wouldn't say it myself. I would use "dinkum".
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely first-aclass and genuine.
Le 27/08/2025 |a 18:54, occam a |-crit :
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first-aclass and genuine.
Yes. OED, sense 3.a (1776 on): "... proper or correct in behaviour,
socially acceptable". Your sense, 3.b, "Excellent, superb; 'cool'",
marked "British slang", is a jamie-come-lately (1991 on).
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
I still find myself guessing the gender a lot of the time. If there is
an obvious Spanish cognate I take that as a guide, because for many
examples the genders are easier to guess in Spanish. That occasionally
gives the wrong answer, for example with la banque/el banco, but
usually it works.
What stuck in my mind from long ago, so no source:
"Les gendres en Francais sont aleatoires, et nous en sommes fiers !"
So it is hopeless, the only way is reading lots of French,
hoping some will stick, and still you will miss a lot,
On 28/08/2025 06:43, Hibou wrote:
Le 27/08/2025 |a 18:54, occam a |-crit :
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to >>>> me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first-aclass and genuine.
Yes. OED, sense 3.a (1776 on): "... proper or correct in behaviour,
socially acceptable". Your sense, 3.b, "Excellent, superb; 'cool'",
marked "British slang", is a jamie-come-lately (1991 on).
I like 'jamie-come-lately' (the expression, not the chef).
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 06.14 skrev Peter Moylan:
Does anyone speak of, or write about "an historical novel"?
I pronounce it that way, but I seem to be in a minority here.
I decided to try an Ngram and then decided to ngram all the words. Then
I took screenshots so I could make a webpage with them all - but the
curves are gone in a screenshot! So you'll have to make do with my descriptions:
On 28/08/2025 01:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 28/08/25 03:54, occam wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to >>>> me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first class and genuine.
It is, but I wouldn't say it myself. I would use "dinkum".
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
What if my country has a history of being occupied by GB?
"dinkum" has a distinctly Australian ring to it.
On 27/08/2025 18:36, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:Steve was thinking of the difference between
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is >>>> gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and British
English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
[constructed]
-a-a-a-a-a The state is building a hospital near Dallas.
He was in hospital (UK)
and
He was in the hospital (US)
On 28/08/2025 6:24 a.m., Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
On 2025-08-27 17:36:27 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 12.23 skrev Steve Hayes:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:36:03 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
an hospital,a hospital
"An" is dominating until 1860 after which it gradually decreases and is >>>>> gone in 1920.
In AmE isn't it always "the hospital"?
According to an Ngram there's no difference between American and
British English. "A hospital" scores roughly a fifth of "the hospital".
Maybe, but that's not the point, which is that in the UK we say "he's in
hospital", where as in the USA they say "he's in the hospital."
...specifically for the situation of being a patient. I believe BrE
would still be able to use "...in the hospital" to describe the location
of, for example, the King visiting victims of something, or somebody who
was there to fix the air conditioning, or even an ordinary visitor who
was not a patient.
On 27/08/2025 21:58, Janet wrote:
In article <mh8v2jFcbdrU1@mid.individual.net>,
occam@nowhere.nix says...
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 26/08/2025 |a 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden a |-crit :
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces the h in >>>> "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler had anything to >>>> say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find anything. Likewise in the >>>> 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't checked whether Burchfield said
anything, because I don't care what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of "historic" >>>> with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at all.
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to >>> me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'?
Yes, perfect.
Pukka for me is absolutely
first-aclass and genuine.
You and Jamie Oliver.
...and who else, I wonder.
According to Merriam Webster:
"The word is borrowed from Hindi and Urdu "pakk-U," which means "solid."
The English speakers who borrowed it applied the "sound and reliable"
sense of "solid" and thus the word came to mean "genuine."
It goes on:
" These days, "pukka" is also used as a British slang word meaning "excellent" or "cool."
P.S: Perhaps I have fallen foul of the double negative in Hibou's sentence.
To older Brits, it carries the whiff of Colonial
rectitude.
Then I took screenshots so I could make a webpage with them all - but
the curves are gone in a screenshot! So you'll have to make do with my
descriptions:
Your screenshooter seems to be defective.
What OS are you running?
They showed up on my screenshots.
[...] In Australia, in my childhood, it was a strong indicator of religion. The "haitch" version now seems to have died out here, though. Perhaps at the same rate as nuns are dying out.
On 2025-08-27 21:56, occam wrote:
On 28/08/2025 01:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 28/08/25 03:54, occam wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound
unnatural to me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like
'an 'otel'.
ObAUE: Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is
absolutely first class and genuine.
It is, but I wouldn't say it myself. I would use "dinkum".
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying
India.
What if my country has a history of being occupied by GB?
"dinkum" has a distinctly Australian ring to it.
That's fair enough.
Ar an t-ocht|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Peter Moylan:
[...] In Australia, in my childhood, it was a strong indicator of
religion. The "haitch" version now seems to have died out here,
though. Perhaps at the same rate as nuns are dying out.
Wow. And itrCOs going from strength to strength in England.
On 28/08/25 01:37, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an seacht|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Chris Elvidge:
But: how do you (not you personally) pronounce 'h'? With or
without the sometimes initial 'h'. Aitch or haitch?
The name of the letter is a (Norman) French borrowing and its
pronunciation by most English speakers is /+c+-t-a/, your first option.
Those populations with strong Irish Catholic influence often
pronounce it /h+c+-t-a/, your second option. Neither is relevant to
AthelrCOs question.
In Australia, in my childhood, it was a strong indicator of religion.
The "haitch" version now seems to have died out here, though.
Perhaps at the same rate as nuns are dying out.
Jesus Haitch Christ?
Den 27.08.2025 kl. 22.27 skrev Sam Plusnet:
If I heard someone say "a historic", I might well hear that as a synonym
of anachronistic - but I might be atypical.
Wouldn't the stress or lack thereof reveal waht is meant? I stress the a
in "ahistoric" but it's weak in "a historic".
It's H for Harold of course, after his father.
Actual usage of "a/an", as opposed to preferred usage, is more complex
than what a teacher is likely to cover. The linguist Geoff Lindsey has a video on the subject, including a story of how glottalization turned an order for "a English muffin" into an order for eight:
<https://youtu.be/nCe7Fj8-ZnQ?t=863>
It's H for Harold of course, after his father.
I heard that it stood for "Haploid," on the grounds that God provided no >DNA.
On 27/08/2025 15:47, Chris Elvidge wrote:
On 26/08/2025 at 17:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
Where did the silly idea of writing "an historic" rather than "a
historic" come from? Why do people do it? Everyone pronounces
the h in "historic", so why "an historic"? I wondered if Fowler
had anything to say about it 99 years ago,but I can't find
anything. Likewise in the 2nd edition by Gowers. I haven't
checked whether Burchfield said anything, because I don't care
what he thought.
The Shorter OED unambiguously starts the pronunciation of
"historic" with h, and doesn't mention the h-less version at
all.
But: how do you (not you personally) pronounce 'h'? With or
without the sometimes initial 'h'. Aitch or haitch?
Good question. In other words is it an 'h', or a 'h'? (The former
for me.)
In article <MPG.431a01432dbd9d86989898@news.eternal-september.org>,
Melissa Hollingsworth <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
It's H for Harold of course, after his father.
I heard that it stood for "Haploid," on the grounds that God provided no >DNA.
Our father, which art in heaven
Harold be thy name
On 28/08/2025 01:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 28/08/25 03:54, occam wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to >>>> me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first class and genuine.
It is, but I wouldn't say it myself. I would use "dinkum".
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
What if my country has a history of being occupied by GB?
"dinkum" has a distinctly Australian ring to it.
On 28/08/25 03:54, occam wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:39, Hibou wrote:
Nor does the full OED, though 'an 'istoric' doesn't sound unnatural to
me - quite a pukka pronunciation, in fact, like 'an 'otel'.
ObAUE:-a Is that a correct use of 'pukka'? Pukka for me is absolutely
first class and genuine.
It is, but I wouldn't say it myself. I would use "dinkum".
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
crude parody of Australian speech - usually whilst wearing a hat strewn
with corks.
On 28/08/2025 00:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
Typical! You accidentally occupy a quarter of the planet's land mass,
and people get snippy about it for some reason.
Den 28.08.2025 kl. 08.30 skrev lar3ryca:
Then I took screenshots so I could make a webpage with them all - but
the curves are gone in a screenshot! So you'll have to make do with
my descriptions:
Your screenshooter seems to be defective.
What OS are you running?
Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.1
They showed up on my screenshots.
I just tried again. I usually use Alt-PrintScrn to focus only on the specific window, and then the curves are gone, but if I take the whole screen with only PrintScrn, then they are there. Strange.
It's the Alt that disturbs the scren. If I press it, the screen flickers
and the curves disappear momentarily.
Sam Plusnet hat am 28.08.2025 um 20:45 geschrieben:
On 28/08/2025 00:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
Typical! You accidentally occupy a quarter of the planet's land mass,
and people get snippy about it for some reason.
Accidentally? ROTFLMAO.
On 28/08/2025 20:55, Silvano wrote:
Sam Plusnet hat am 28.08.2025 um 20:45 geschrieben:
On 28/08/2025 00:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying
India.
Typical!-a You accidentally occupy a quarter of the planet's
land mass,
and people get snippy about it for some reason.
Accidentally? ROTFLMAO.
Not too much planning was involved.
I just tried again. I usually use Alt-PrintScrn to focus only on theI see. Bummer.
specific window, and then the curves are gone, but if I take the whole
screen with only PrintScrn, then they are there. Strange.
It's the Alt that disturbs the scren. If I press it, the screen
flickers and the curves disappear momentarily.
Melissa Hollingsworth wrote:
[...]
It's H for Harold of course, after his father.
I heard that it stood for "Haploid," on the grounds that God provided no
DNA.
Our father, which art in heaven
Harold be thy name
The three initials of my given names are W, H, and H, which with the
two initals of my surname are in my web domain and email address.
Giving the address over the phone -- "double-you aitch aitch vee ess
dot co dot uk" -- seems to flummox people, while spelling it out as >"double-you haitch haitch" seems to work more often than not.
In article <XnsB349AEB22C9E1whhvans@157.180.91.226>,
HVS <office@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
The three initials of my given names are W, H, and H, which with the
two initals of my surname are in my web domain and email address.
Giving the address over the phone -- "double-you aitch aitch vee ess
dot co dot uk" -- seems to flummox people, while spelling it out as >"double-you haitch haitch" seems to work more often than not.
I suppose reading out out "whiskey hotel hotel victor sierra" would
faze most interlocutors in the same way it does when I try "whiskey
oscar lima lima ...". (Except in the airline industry, of course.
Even the telephone customer service reps are trained in the "phonetic alphabet".)
Ar an nao|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Garrett Wollman:
In article <XnsB349AEB22C9E1whhvans@157.180.91.226>,
HVS <office@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
The three initials of my given names are W, H, and H, which with the >two initals of my surname are in my web domain and email address. >Giving the address over the phone -- "double-you aitch aitch vee ess >dot co dot uk" -- seems to flummox people, while spelling it out as >"double-you haitch haitch" seems to work more often than not.
I suppose reading out out "whiskey hotel hotel victor sierra" would
faze most interlocutors in the same way it does when I try "whiskey
oscar lima lima ...". (Except in the airline industry, of course.
Even the telephone customer service reps are trained in the "phonetic alphabet".)
WerCOre not in NATO in this country and so the NATO phonetic alphabet does not
have wide currency.
On 29/08/2025 00:45, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 28/08/2025 20:55, Silvano wrote:
Sam Plusnet hat am 28.08.2025 um 20:45 geschrieben:
On 28/08/2025 00:28, Peter Moylan wrote:
It depends on whether your country has a history of occupying India.
Typical!-a You accidentally occupy a quarter of the planet's land mass, >>>> and people get snippy about it for some reason.
Accidentally? ROTFLMAO.
Not too much planning was involved.
Peccavi. Bugger.
On 29/08/2025 19:01, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Garrett Wollman:
> In article <XnsB349AEB22C9E1whhvans@157.180.91.226>,
> HVS <office@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The three initials of my given names are W, H, and H, which with the
> >two initals of my surname are in my web domain and email address.
> >Giving the address over the phone -- "double-you aitch aitch vee ess
> >dot co dot uk" -- seems to flummox people, while spelling it out as
> >"double-you haitch haitch" seems to work more often than not.
>
> I suppose reading out out "whiskey hotel hotel victor sierra" would
> faze most interlocutors in the same way it does when I try "whiskey
> oscar lima lima ...". (Except in the airline industry, of course.
> Even the telephone customer service reps are trained in the "phonetic
> alphabet".)
WerCOre not in NATO in this country and so the NATO phonetic alphabet does not
have wide currency.
That's silly. What you call 'NATO alphabet' existed well before NATO
adopted and modified it for its own use.
Originally known as International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)
spelling alphabet, it was used by a number of international bodies,
until NATO came and tweaked it a little.
Note the spelling of 'W'. It's the Irish spelling.
I think 'Yankee' should be changed to 'Yahoo'. We do not want the
unnecessary mention of Yanks. Let's hope Trumpty Dumpty does not require
that 'Alfa' be changed to 'merican . Finally I think 'Mike' (one
syllable) should be changed to a 2-syllable word like 'Miriam' or 'Milos'.
Because I can't quite remember the 'official' spelling alphabet
these days, I have developed the habit of using the first word
that comes to mind.
days, I have developed the habit of using the first word that comes to
mind.
[...] Here in Boston, Logan International Airport used to have five terminals, A, B, C, D, and E. About twenty-five years ago, terminal C was remodeled, subsuming terminal D in the process, and they initially said that, after an interval, they were going to change terminal E to be terminal D so the lettering would be contiguous. Someone must have had second thoughts about that, because it never happened. My theory is that it was because Delta Air Lines had just leased the under-construction terminal A, and it was confusing enough having "Delta" (the telephony designator) planes going to terminal "alfa" without there also being a terminal "delta" -- especially since terminal "echo" was and still is the international[1] terminal, so if the renaming had happened, Delta's international arrivals, along with everyone else's, would disembark at terminal "delta", but depart from terminal "alfa". Ordinary passengers would not likely be confused but there would be too much scope for confusion on the part of the pilots and control tower.
In article <CXmsQ.1132$5kj1.753@fx16.ams1>, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
Because I can't quite remember the 'official' spelling alphabet these
days, I have developed the habit of using the first word that comes to
mind.
Obviously, in aviation that's not an option, but of course if you
worked in aviation you'd be using it every day and would have no
difficulty remember it. (I tend to blank on some of the
less-frequently-used ones... upthread it took me about five seconds to remember "victor" for V and that's one that ought to have been
obvious.)
Here in Boston, Logan International Airport used to have five
terminals, A, B, C, D, and E. About twenty-five years ago, terminal C
was remodeled, subsuming terminal D in the process, and they initially
said that, after an interval, they were going to change terminal E to
be terminal D so the lettering would be contiguous. Someone must have
had second thoughts about that, because it never happened. My theory
is that it was because Delta Air Lines had just leased the
under-construction terminal A, and it was confusing enough having
"Delta" (the telephony designator) planes going to terminal "alfa"
without there also being a terminal "delta" -- especially since
terminal "echo" was and still is the international[1] terminal, so
if the renaming had happened, Delta's international arrivals, along
with everyone else's, would disembark at terminal "delta", but depart
from terminal "alfa". Ordinary passengers would not likely be
confused but there would be too much scope for confusion on the part
of the pilots and control tower.
-GAWollman
[1] Except flights arriving from USCIS preclearance airports in Canada
and Ireland. Porter, which mainly serves Toronto Billy Bishop and not
Toronto Pearson, arrives at terminal E, but Air Canada and Westjet use--
the terminals leased by their US-based alliance partners. Aer Lingus
arrives at terminal C where their codeshare partner JetNlue is,
because Dublin has preclearance, but since JetBlue now operates
narrowbody TATL service to LHR, they now have a presence in terminal E
too. Other than Porter's, all of terminal E's gates are shared rather
than leased exclusively to one airline.
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training
base at St. Jean, Quebec.
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training
base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me -u300, whereas he would
fly for the princely sum of -u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
On 2025-08-30 09:38:44 +0000, occam said:
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training
base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me -u300, whereas he would
fly for the princely sum of -u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his
freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
When my brother-in-law was stationed in Berlin in 1979, I could fly
there by British Airways for -u45 return -- not -u5, but affordable.
On 29/08/2025 20:11, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Because I can't quite remember the 'official' spelling alphabet
these days, I have developed the habit of using the first word
that comes to mind.
Fair enough, and I'm sure lots of people do likewise, but do bear
in mind that the words have been chosen not to sound like each
other, whereas randomly selected words are generally not so chosen.
Your strategy therefore introduces at least the possibility of
ambiguity, although I won't go so far as to say 'probability'.
A cyclist friend can never remember Bravo, so he habitually uses
Bike. I can't help wondering how often it's been interpreted over
a bad line as 'Mike'.
In South Africa "Bravo" has become, in some circles (such as Whatsapp Neighbourhood Watch Groups), a synonym for "black people", with
faintly racist overtones.
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me u300, whereas he would
fly for the princely sum of u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training
base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me u300, whereas he would
fly for the princely sum of u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his
freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
Not unreasonable.
You pay for your part of the whole cost of the flight.
He pays for the marginal cost of transporting him there
when the plane is flying anyway, (andthe flight paid for)
So he pays only the extra fuel needed to take him on,
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training
base at St. Jean, Quebec.
[1] Slang term for hitching a ride on an RCAF plane that happens to be
going somewhere on business unrelated to your wish to get there too. [...]
On 29/08/2025 19:05, occam wrote:
On 29/08/2025 19:01, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an nao|| l|i is fiche de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Garrett
Wollman:
In article <XnsB349AEB22C9E1whhvans@157.180.91.226>,
HVS <office@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
The three initials of my given names are W, H, and H, which
with the two initals of my surname are in my web domain and
email address. Giving the address over the phone --
"double-you aitch aitch vee ess dot co dot uk" -- seems to
flummox people, while spelling it out as "double-you haitch
haitch" seems to work more often than not.
I suppose reading out out "whiskey hotel hotel victor sierra"
would faze most interlocutors in the same way it does when I
try "whiskey oscar lima lima ...". (Except in the airline
industry, of course. Even the telephone customer service reps
are trained in the "phonetic alphabet".)
WerCOre not in NATO in this country and so the NATO phonetic
alphabet does not have wide currency.
That's silly. What you call 'NATO alphabet' existed well before
NATO adopted and modified it for its own use.
Originally known as International Civil Aviation Organization
(ICAO) spelling alphabet, it was used by a number of
international bodies, until NATO came and tweaked it a little.
Note the spelling of 'W'. It's the Irish spelling.
I think 'Yankee' should be changed to 'Yahoo'. We do not want the
unnecessary mention of Yanks. Let's hope Trumpty Dumpty does not
require that 'Alfa' be changed to 'merican . Finally I think
'Mike' (one syllable) should be changed to a 2-syllable word like
'Miriam' or 'Milos'.
Because I can't quite remember the 'official' spelling alphabet
these days, I have developed the habit of using the first word
that comes to mind.
So I might use "N for Nigel" or "N for Nuremberg"
B for Buffalo or Bison or Basin etc. etc.
On 31/08/2025 05:42, Steve Hayes wrote:
In South Africa "Bravo" has become, in some circles (such as Whatsapp
Neighbourhood Watch Groups), a synonym for "black people", with
faintly racist overtones.
That should make no difference to anyone. Allowing bigotry to
dictate our language choices is to grant it a power to which it
has no right.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 06:42:04 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
On 31/08/2025 05:42, Steve Hayes wrote:
In South Africa "Bravo" has become, in some circles (such as Whatsapp
Neighbourhood Watch Groups), a synonym for "black people", with
faintly racist overtones.
That should make no difference to anyone. Allowing bigotry to
dictate our language choices is to grant it a power to which it
has no right.
It seems to have done so, to a much greater extent, in the case of
"woke".
And then there is the notorious DEI, which was politically correct
under Biden, but decidedly politically INcorrect under Trump.
On 31/08/25 17:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training >>> base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me u300, whereas he would >> fly for the princely sum of u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his
freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
Not unreasonable.
You pay for your part of the whole cost of the flight.
He pays for the marginal cost of transporting him there
when the plane is flying anyway, (andthe flight paid for)
So he pays only the extra fuel needed to take him on,
Are you suggesting that BA would have cancelled the flight if occam had
not boarded it?
A more important factor is that the RAF does not pay dividends to shareholders.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
On 31/08/25 17:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 30/08/2025 07:12, lar3ryca wrote:
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF >>>>> plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the training >>>>> base at St. Jean, Quebec.
While at at university I met the son of an RAF officer who would
regularly 'flip' to Akrotiri (Cyprus) on the basis that he was 'RAF
family'. My British Airways tickets would cost me -u300, whereas he would >>>> fly for the princely sum of -u5. (I'm not quite sure what he called his >>>> freebie flights, but it was not a 'flip'.)
Not unreasonable.
You pay for your part of the whole cost of the flight.
He pays for the marginal cost of transporting him there
when the plane is flying anyway, (andthe flight paid for)
So he pays only the extra fuel needed to take him on,
Are you suggesting that BA would have cancelled the flight if occam had
not boarded it?
Where do you see that?
A more important factor is that the RAF does not pay dividends to
shareholders.
But they do ask some money.
An estimate comes to about the marginal cost to them:
The extra passenfger is made to pay for the extra fuel
that is consumed by carrying him along,
[1] Except flights arriving from USCIS preclearance airports in Canada
and Ireland. Porter, which mainly serves Toronto Billy Bishop and not
Where in the Toronto area is 'Toronto Billy Bishop'?
On 31/08/2025 17:51, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 06:42:04 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
On 31/08/2025 05:42, Steve Hayes wrote:
In South Africa "Bravo" has become, in some circles (such as Whatsapp
Neighbourhood Watch Groups), a synonym for "black people", with
faintly racist overtones.
That should make no difference to anyone. Allowing bigotry to
dictate our language choices is to grant it a power to which it
has no right.
It seems to have done so, to a much greater extent, in the case of
"woke".
Indeed. I make a point of paying the 'woke' bigots no mind
whatsoever.
--And then there is the notorious DEI, which was politically correct
under Biden, but decidedly politically INcorrect under Trump.
*Whoosh*
Had to wiki it.
No problem with any of those in government circles. Mandating
them in non-governmental organisation is a bad idea because
freedom. Trying to force people to think the way you think is
always evil.
Le 30/08/2025 |a 06:12, lar3ryca a |-crit :
During my RCAF Basic Training, I caught a 'flip' [1] in a small RCAF
plane (A Beechcraft Expeditor) out of Downsview, flying to the
training base at St. Jean, Quebec.
[1] Slang term for hitching a ride on an RCAF plane that happens to be
going somewhere on business unrelated to your wish to get there too.
[...]
'Flip' in the sense of a short flight rings a bell (a circuit for half a crown in the 20s, that sort of thing), and is in the OED:
"I.7. Originally British Military slang. Not in North American use.
"I.7.a. A short period of flying around in an aircraft [...] 1914-"
"I'd knocked around with him in Phoenix and, on the strength of that,
asked for a flip in his Anson" - Muirhead 1944.
RCAF? In use in the better parts of North America, it seems.
In article <108u17o$2dq9d$1@dont-email.me>, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-08-29 13:52, Garrett Wollman wrote:
[1] Except flights arriving from USCIS preclearance airports in Canada
and Ireland. Porter, which mainly serves Toronto Billy Bishop and not
Where in the Toronto area is 'Toronto Billy Bishop'?
On an island in Lake Ontario. CYTZ by the ICAO code (the IATA code is
plain YTZ as usual).
Basically the best place to arrive in Toronto if your destination is
downtown because it's literally a 100m walk from the terminal. But
due to noise issues it's limited to small planes, mainly Q400s and
similar turboprops.
I also had occasion to fly on transport aircraft to test radar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Freighter>
equipment. The most fun was the Bristol Freighter, as after my
testing, I talked the flight master into allowing me to lie down
and watch the landing through the forward ports that let me look
straight down.
You can see the ports at
<https://en.wikipedia.org</wiki/Bristol_Freighter>
if you scroll--
down to the third image.
You can see the ports at
<https://en.wikipedia.org</wiki/Bristol_Freighter> if you scroll down to
the third image.
On 31/08/2025 05:42, Steve Hayes wrote:
In South Africa "Bravo" has become, in some circles (such as Whatsapp
Neighbourhood Watch Groups), a synonym for "black people", with
faintly racist overtones.
That should make no difference to anyone. Allowing bigotry to dictate
our language choices is to grant it a power to which it has no right.
I think 'Yankee' should be changed to 'Yahoo'. We do not want the
unnecessary mention of Yanks. [...]