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In WWI both the Flemish and the Irish (that is, some of them)
sought German support agaist their oppressors, French resp. English.
Not that they loved those imperial Germans that much,
but they were not in a situation in which they could choose
their friends.
The French and the English regarded this of course
as high treason and back-stabbing.
As you know, the results were different,
the Flemish got more repression out of it,
the Irish got independence, but at a terrible cost,
On Thu, 21 Aug 2025 15:22:16 +0200, occam wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American
TV series shown in Britain.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
If there's any truth to it.
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American
TV series shown in Britain.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American
TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1]
Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
The Dutch just didn't reccon with Belgian sensitivities,
supposing they even knew about them.
All this has its deep roots in the 'language wars'.
'Les Francophones' used to taunt the Flemish with:
'We speak a great world language, 'le Francais'.
You speak nothing but 'des patois',
just a great many hard to understand dialects.
(being blissfully unawre that they were mocked to in Paris
for their sometimes peculiar Walloonish French) [2]
NO, the Flemish replied, we speak a great language to,
namely Dutch, which is by far 'the biggest of the small',
(in the EU) at ~25 million speakers.
So they considered even an implication that Belgian Dutch
might not be quite up to northern Dutch standards as a form of treason,
as refusal to support them, as a failure to back them up
in their great language war.
So: We speak and write Dutch, and whatever we say and write IS Dutch,
by definition and by our laws, and don't you dare say otherwise.
(but remember this was 50+ years ago)
Jan
[1] A standard example is 'een schoon kleedje'.
In Belgium this would usually be understood as
a good looking dress. (preferably on a beautiful woman)
In the Netherlands it would be understood as a (small) carpet or rug
on the floor that has recently been cleaned.
There are longish lists, quite like those lists
of British/American misunderstandings.
[2] I once shocked a Frenchman by using 'Belgicisme'
for a maladroit usage in Belgian Dutch.
Mais, mais, c'est impossible !
Un 'Belgicisme' c'est un usage maladroit en Fancais Belgique !
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement
over standard French.
On 22/08/2025 10:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for "quatre
vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over standard
French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
The only Belgicisme that I'm conscious of is Hercule Poirot.--
On 22/08/2025 10:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
The only Belgicisme that I'm conscious of is Hercule Poirot.
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Touch|-. Many posts on Quora start with something like "we're all
conscious that Donald Trump is the greatest president in the history of
the world." On reading them, one realizes that "all" dooesn't mean
"all", it means "people like me." In my case, my "all" meant people who
live in a francophone environment, and you were right to call me out on it.
On 22/08/25 19:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 22/08/2025 10:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Belgian French also has "septante", but not "octante". From vague
memory, I think Swiss French has all three.
On 22/08/2025 13:50, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 22/08/25 19:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 22/08/2025 10:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Belgian French also has "septante", but not "octante". From vague
memory, I think Swiss French has all three.
That's my understanding also. The Swiss, efficient as ever, have taken
the French counting system to its logical extreme.
It's not that the French convention is illogical. It is however - to an outsider - a pain. I first fell foul of it when I was given a number -
over the phone - to pass on to a colleague. I made a dog's dinner of
it. I asked the caller to tell me the number slo..owly
"Quatre vingt dix-neuf" I wrote down as "4-20-19", "Soixante dix-sept"
as 60-17, and so on. I knew something was wrong when the number I had
written down had far too may digits.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American
TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1]
Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
On 2025-08-22 13:36:13 +0000, occam said:
On 22/08/2025 13:50, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 22/08/25 19:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 22/08/2025 10:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Belgian French also has "septante", but not "octante". From vague
memory, I think Swiss French has all three.
That's my understanding also. The Swiss, efficient as ever, have taken
the French counting system to its logical extreme.
It's not that the French convention is illogical. It is however - to an
outsider - a pain. I first fell foul of it when I was given a number -
over the phone - to pass on to a colleague.-a I made a dog's dinner of
it. I asked the caller to tell me the number slo..owly
"Quatre vingt dix-neuf" I wrote down as "4-20-19", "Soixante dix-sept"
as 60-17, and so on. I knew something was wrong when the number I had
written down had far too may digits.
Our fixed-phone number was designed as an exercise for practising French counting: z|-ro quatre, quatre vingt onze, soixante dix neuf, z|-ro huit, quatre vingt dix sept. That's not it, as I don't want any bots that are tracking this new group to bombard us with unwanted calls; we get plenty
of those anyway. However, it illustrates the idea.
On 22/08/2025 10:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American >>> TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1]
Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
Intended or not, it is an insult. Imagine every time you say something ,
I repeat it in my own voice, for the benefit of a third person.
The only parallel I can draw is, in some old musicals, you had the words
of the song included as subtitles. There was (sometimes) also a dot,
jumping from word to word, keeping up with the melody.
It gave the impression that the intended audience was either too dumb to
keep up with the words, or they needed help with reading while singing. >Either way, it came across as an insult - whether intended or not.
On 22/08/2025 10:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American >>> TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1]
Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
Intended or not, it is an insult. Imagine every time you say something ,
I repeat it in my own voice, for the benefit of a third person.
The only parallel I can draw is, in some old musicals, you had the words
of the song included as subtitles. There was (sometimes) also a dot,
jumping from word to word, keeping up with the melody.
It gave the impression that the intended audience was either too dumb to
keep up with the words, or they needed help with reading while singing. Either way, it came across as an insult - whether intended or not.
The Dutch just didn't reccon with Belgian sensitivities,
supposing they even knew about them.
All this has its deep roots in the 'language wars'.
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 11.55 skrev Athel Cornish-Bowden:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for
"quatre vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over
standard French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm
not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Touch|-. Many posts on Quora start with something like "we're all
conscious that Donald Trump is the greatest president in the history
of the world." On reading them, one realizes that "all" dooesn't mean
"all", it means "people like me." In my case, my "all" meant people
who live in a francophone environment, and you were right to call me
out on it.
I knew about the Belgian style - even before I met it in the Asterix
albums. At one time I thought that it was a general improvement of
French, just to learn later that only the Belgians have seen the light.
On 2025-08-22 06:46, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 11.55 skrev Athel Cornish-Bowden:
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for "quatre >>>>> vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over standard >>>>> French.
Not me.
Oh! I don't doubt you that it's an improvement. I only meant that I'm >>>> not (or at least wasn't) conscious of "nonante".
Touch|-. Many posts on Quora start with something like "we're all
conscious that Donald Trump is the greatest president in the history of >>> the world." On reading them, one realizes that "all" dooesn't mean
"all", it means "people like me." In my case, my "all" meant people who >>> live in a francophone environment, and you were right to call me out on >>> it.
I knew about the Belgian style - even before I met it in the Asterix
albums. At one time I thought that it was a general improvement of
French, just to learn later that only the Belgians have seen the light.
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
I knew about the Belgian style - even before I met it in the Asterix
albums. At one time I thought that it was a general improvement of
French, just to learn later that only the Belgians have seen the light.
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
Ah, right. I'd forgotten that Danish counting is as crazy as French.
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
On 2025-08-22 08:13:26 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American >> TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1] Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
The Dutch just didn't reccon with Belgian sensitivities,
supposing they even knew about them.
All this has its deep roots in the 'language wars'.
'Les Francophones' used to taunt the Flemish with:
'We speak a great world language, 'le Francais'.
You speak nothing but 'des patois',
just a great many hard to understand dialects.
(being blissfully unawre that they were mocked to in Paris
for their sometimes peculiar Walloonish French) [2]
NO, the Flemish replied, we speak a great language to,
namely Dutch, which is by far 'the biggest of the small',
(in the EU) at ~25 million speakers.
So they considered even an implication that Belgian Dutch
might not be quite up to northern Dutch standards as a form of treason,
as refusal to support them, as a failure to back them up
in their great language war.
So: We speak and write Dutch, and whatever we say and write IS Dutch,
by definition and by our laws, and don't you dare say otherwise.
(but remember this was 50+ years ago)
Jan
[1] A standard example is 'een schoon kleedje'.
In Belgium this would usually be understood as
a good looking dress. (preferably on a beautiful woman)
In the Netherlands it would be understood as a (small) carpet or rug
on the floor that has recently been cleaned.
There are longish lists, quite like those lists
of British/American misunderstandings.
[2] I once shocked a Frenchman by using 'Belgicisme'
for a maladroit usage in Belgian Dutch.
Mais, mais, c'est impossible !
Un 'Belgicisme' c'est un usage maladroit en Fancais Belgique !
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for "quatre
vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over standard
French.
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 19.46 skrev Athel Cornish-Bowden:
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
Ah, right. I'd forgotten that Danish counting is as crazy as French.
No it's not. It's as simple as the English system - except that we
reverse the digits like the Germans do.
occam wrote on 8/22/2025 :
On 22/08/2025 10:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to
American
TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor. >>>No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1]
Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
Intended or not, it is an insult. Imagine every time you say something ,
I repeat it in my own voice, for the benefit of a third person.
The only parallel I can draw is, in some old musicals, you had the words
of the song included as subtitles. There was (sometimes) also a dot,
jumping from word to word, keeping up with the melody.
It gave the impression that the intended audience was either too dumb to
keep up with the words, or they needed help with reading while singing.
Either way, it came across as an insult - whether intended or not.
Some people's threshold for being insulted is lower than that of other people.
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 19.46 skrev Athel Cornish-Bowden:
Ah, right. I'd forgotten that Danish counting is as crazy as French.
No it's not. It's as simple as the English system - except that we
reverse the digits like the Germans do.
No it's not. It's as simple as the English system - except that we
reverse the digits like the Germans do.
treoghalvfems
Halvtreds, tres, halvfjerds, firs, halvferns.
Literal translation for English speakers: half of the third 20, threeIt's correct, but I'd like to make it clearer how the present names have evolved. But since it'll be much about Danish and little about English,
times twenty, half of the fourth 20, four times 20, half of the fifth 20.
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 19.59 skrev Bertel Lund Hansen:
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
I forgot:
We have a parallel set of number names that are as simple as the English ones.
When we had checks, evrybody knew them because they were required
on checks. Today maybe not everyone knows them, but I think that they'll
be understood anyway.
They haven't outmanouvered the dominating system, and it doesn't seem
that they ever will. They resemble the Norwegian and Swedish numbers.
If you're interested:
Take the names for the ones, add "ti" and you have the ten-names. Add
the desired digit and you have the complete name. Example (with hyphens):
(92) ni-ti-to = nine-ten-two
The ordinary name is:
to-og-halvfems = two-and-ninety
On 2025-08-22 12:01, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 19.46 skrev Athel Cornish-Bowden:
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a >>> number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
Ah, right. I'd forgotten that Danish counting is as crazy as French.
No it's not. It's as simple as the English system - except that we reverse the digits like the Germans do.
treoghalvfems
On 2025-08-22 11:04, Snidely wrote:
occam wrote on 8/22/2025 :
On 22/08/2025 10:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to
American
TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult
factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1] >>>> Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
Intended or not, it is an insult. Imagine every time you say something , >>> I repeat it in my own voice, for the benefit of a third person.
The only parallel I can draw is, in some old musicals, you had the words >>> of the song included as subtitles. There was (sometimes) also a dot,
jumping from word to word, keeping up with the melody.
It gave the impression that the intended audience was either too dumb to >>> keep up with the words, or they needed help with reading while singing.
Either way, it came across as an insult - whether intended or not.
Some people's threshold for being insulted is lower than that of other
people.
Some even get insulted for other people, regardless of whether those
other people are insulted or not.
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 22.40 skrev Silvano:
Halvtreds, tres, halvfjerds, firs, halvferns.
"halvferns" looks loke an OCR error. It's "halvfems".
Literal translation for English speakers: half of the third 20, threeIt's correct, but I'd like to make it clearer how the present names have evolved. But since it'll be much about Danish and little about English,
times twenty, half of the fourth 20, four times 20, half of the fifth 20.
and since I have explained it before, I'll make a webpage with the explanation in English and provide the link when it's ready.
Bertel Lund Hansen hat am 22.08.2025 um 20:14 geschrieben:
[...]I forgot:
We have a parallel set of number names that are as simple as the English
ones.
They haven't outmanouvered the dominating system, and it doesn't seem
that they ever will. They resemble the Norwegian and Swedish numbers.
If you're interested:
Take the names for the ones, add "ti" and you have the ten-names. Add
the desired digit and you have the complete name. Example (with hyphens):
(92) ni-ti-to = nine-ten-two
The ordinary name is:
to-og-halvfems = two-and-ninety
Two and half of the fifth 20. Easy, isn't it?
We have a parallel set of number names that are as simple as the English
ones.
Well, foreigners learning Danish would love it if that set of number
names had become standard.
The ordinary name is:
to-og-halvfems = two-and-ninety
Two and half of the fifth 20. Easy, isn't it?
It's correct, but I'd like to make it clearer how the present names
have evolved. But since it'll be much about Danish and little about
English, and since I have explained it before, I'll make a webpage
with the explanation in English and provide the link when it's ready.
See Bertel?
This is exactly what I meant. Granted, a Dane does not have to actually figure the arithmetic out in order to understand the number, but the arithmetic is still there.
I don't know how many languages use this sort of thing. French and
Danish are the only two I know of. Personally, I think it's weird.
The only Belgicisme that I'm conscious of is Hercule Poirot.
Not many Belgians are hung up on growing vegetable marrows, though.
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 23.38 skrev lar3ryca:
It's correct, but I'd like to make it clearer how the present names
have evolved. But since it'll be much about Danish and little about
English, and since I have explained it before, I'll make a webpage
with the explanation in English and provide the link when it's ready.
See Bertel?
This is exactly what I meant. Granted, a Dane does not have to
actually figure the arithmetic out in order to understand the number,
but the arithmetic is still there.
I get your point.
I don't know how many languages use this sort of thing. French and
Danish are the only two I know of. Personally, I think it's weird.
Yeah, I'd rank it a little below the English spelling system.
On 22/08/2025 20:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for "quatre
vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over standard
French.
Au contraire, it is not an improvement,
it is a remainder from Old French, which has it from Latin,
from no doubt much older Indo-European roots.
It is modern French that has invented this degeneration,
It is not clear what you are trying to say. If modern French is
responsible for the degeneration, surely it's modern French that is the
cause of the deterioration ('quatre vingt dix-neuf'). The Swiss French
word ('nonante') is shorter, less taxing on the brain, and with a clear
link to the number nine.
Why would you think 'nonante' is not an improvement?
Op 14/08/2025 om 17:21 schreef occam:
On 14/08/2025 13:22, s|b wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 08:40:40 +0200, occam wrote:Flemish, you say. Now that I have you here...
Do the Dutch have gaziljoen? (English does. :-) )You'll have to ask the Dutch; I'm Flemish. AFAIK we don't have such a
term, but little kids sometimes say 'een miljoen miljard' if they
imagine a big number.
A while back I had this discussion with our resident Dutch poster [J.J. Lodder] that Flemish - apart from being closer to the original language
- sounds softer, hence quite different to Dutch. I claimed that I
could tell the difference from a distance, even without knowing either language. Dutch has harsher, throatier tones.
What is your Flemish perspective?
[Background: I lived 3 years in Brussels. I heard both languages spoken, amongst the other EU languages.]
Dutch standard speech is evolving toward ever more harsh consonants and diphthongued vowels. But some speakers, mainly elderly ones, have still
a very nice and soft sounding idiom.
Flemish standard speech, which is almost only heard in the news
bulletins on radio and television (while being read from the autocue or screen), is very nice and rather soft sounding indeed. But in colloquial speech and most other uses, hardly any Fleming masters standard speech:
they will use instead a more or less strong dialectical accent, some of
which can be as harsh (in their own way) as the Dutch ones.
On 22/08/2025 10:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 20/08/2025 21:23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[2] cross-thread info: there has been a subtitling war
between Belgian and Dutch TV services.
Dutch TV used to subtitle Flemish TV series.
Charming. I think British TV should also adopt this approach to American >> TV series shown in Britain.
They might retaliate by subtitling Inspector Morse.
I guess they won't. It is precisely the RP-like British English
(seen as classy) that is seen over there as the charm of the series.
Not because we don't understand them, but purely for the insult factor.
No insult facor was ever intended. (on the Dutch side)
Just help to the viewers, because some things really are different. [1] Their Belgian inability to understand Dutch TV was just pretence.
Intended or not, it is an insult. Imagine every time you say something ,
I repeat it in my own voice, for the benefit of a third person.
On 2025-08-22 02:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
The Dutch just didn't reccon with Belgian sensitivities,
supposing they even knew about them.
All this has its deep roots in the 'language wars'.
OBAue: 'reckon'.
[...] The reason that some of the Flemish took it as insulting is their factually incorrect, but politically correct idea that Belgian Dutch is standard Dutch.
(Should I repeat, because of their language wars?)
Jan
For parallel: asume that some New-Englanders are insisting that what they speak is (by definition) the correct English, but also that what they speak is the correct English as it is spoken in Oxford, UK.
Ar an ceathr. lb is fiche de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh J. J. Lodder:
[...] The reason that some of the Flemish took it as insulting is their factually incorrect, but politically correct idea that Belgian Dutch is standard Dutch.
You understand, though, that languages can be pluricentric?
What is the national language of Suriname? Is it Dutch? Is it standard Dutch?
(Should I repeat, because of their language wars?)
Jan
For parallel: asume that some New-Englanders are insisting that what they speak is (by definition) the correct English, but also that what they speak
is the correct English as it is spoken in Oxford, UK.
I have no quarrel with the idea that both what is spoken by some New Englanders and by some inhabitants of Oxford are correct English, despite that they differ.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 22/08/2025 20:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
The one Belgicisme that we're all conscious of is "nonante" for "quatre >> >> vingt dix". Sensible people see that as an improvement over standard
French.
Au contraire, it is not an improvement,
it is a remainder from Old French, which has it from Latin,
from no doubt much older Indo-European roots.
It is modern French that has invented this degeneration,
It is not clear what you are trying to say. If modern French is
responsible for the degeneration, surely it's modern French that is the
cause of the deterioration ('quatre vingt dix-neuf'). The Swiss French
word ('nonante') is shorter, less taxing on the brain, and with a clear
link to the number nine.
Why would you think 'nonante' is not an improvement?
It is the original form.
No improvement involved, because it never changed,
Flemish standard speech, which is almost only heard in the news
bulletins on radio and television (while being read from the autocue or screen), is very nice and rather soft sounding indeed. But in colloquial speech and most other uses, hardly any Fleming masters standard speech: they will use instead a more or less strong dialectical accent, some of which can be as harsh (in their own way) as the Dutch ones.
That's not standard Flemish speach,
that is a Flemish speaker trying very much to speak standard Dutch.
(also of a peculiar kind)
And even so, differences were immediately noticeable.
There is no way that a Dutch news reader
could be mistaken for a Flemish one, or the other way round.
Bertel Lund Hansen hat am 22.08.2025 um 20:14 geschrieben:
Den 22.08.2025 kl. 19.59 skrev Bertel Lund Hansen:
Do you think Danish will ever be similarly improved to allow saying a
number in the 90s without having to do arithmetic?
I forgot:
We have a parallel set of number names that are as simple as the English ones.
Well, foreigners learning Danish would love it if that set of number
names had become standard.
Most European languages use a similar set, although the part meaning
"10" was often warped so much that it's hardly recognizable as such.
Novanta in Italian: the relationship between nove (nine) and nov- is
obvious, but the one between dieci (ten) and -anta is not.
Neunzig in German: the relationship between neun (nine) and neun- is
obvious, but the one between zehn (ten) and -zig is not so obvious.