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On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was
in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes >usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >think I'm alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_harrow--
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was >>> in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes
usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
On 2025-09-15, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was >>>> in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes
usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >>> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
On 2025-09-15, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was >>>> in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes
usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >>> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who used
the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:32:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
iirc the 5120 referred to them as diskettes too. 'floppy' is too
reminiscent of LSMFT.
On 15/09/25 14:24, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:32:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Eight-inchers were diskettes too.-a At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
iirc the 5120 referred to them as diskettes too. 'floppy' is too
reminiscent of LSMFT.
Liposclerosing myxofibrous tumour?
FLoppies had their virtues. I once dropped an eight-inch floppy in a university car park. I found it that evening, noticeably out of shape,
with tyre marks all over it; but it hadn't lost any data.
On 15/09/25 13:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was >>>>> in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes >>>> usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >>>> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier),
and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman wrote:
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes
usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't
think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc. [...]
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 14:02:32 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 15/09/25 13:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:06:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We used "disquete" in Spain. I am not sure what name we used while I was >>>>>> in Ottawa, probably floppy.
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes >>>>> usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >>>>> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who
used the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier),
and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
My first programming job, 1968, was on an IBM 1130, with two
(external) disks and 16K of 16 bit words. Or maybe that was 8K --
I seem to remember that only about 4K was available for program
space if system routines for I/O were called and therefore loaded.
The 2315 disk for the IBM 1130 was 15 inches -- serving plate
rather than dinner plate, recording on both surfaces. The casing
was 1 3/8 inches thick (dimensions from the Wiki article on IBM 1130). Picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130#/media/File:Disk_Cartridge_2315_type.jb.jpg
(Wiki, "IBM 360) The bigger, more commercial IBM 360 had thicker
"disk packs" -- the 2316 had 6 platters inside, using 10 surfaces,
for a total of about 5 megabytes depending on formatting.
We wrote several simple statistics program in Fortran IV (subset).
Our research data was all numeric, so we were able to compress
4 numbers (0-15) into each 16-bit word. Even after compressing,
we had one data file that was larger than one megabyte. One
solution, which didn't work well for other reasons, was to read to End-of-File and PAUSE so the operator could switch disks and
clue to start reading the file again: the data disks were bare of
anything except the single file starting at the same location on
each disk.
We did weeks of programming to achieve, mostly, tabulations
that, 5 or so years later, any informed user of SPSS or BMDP
or SAS could set up and KEYPUNCH within an hour.
Le 15/09/2025 |a 04:20, Steve Hayes a |-crit :
On 15 Sep 2025 01:56:16 GMT, rbowman wrote:
In my experience in the US 5.25s were floppies and 3.5s were diskettes
usually. I'm perpetually confused over whether it's disk or disc. I don't >> think I'm alone.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and if
it's optical it's a disc. [...]
The ratio disk:disc seems to be about the same for both optical and magnetic:
<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=magnetic+disk%2Cmagnetic+disc%2Coptical+disk%2Coptical+disc&year_start=1950&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>
I think it's a Transpondian difference:
<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=computer+disc%3Aeng_us%2Ccomputer+disk%3Aeng_us%2Ccomputer+disc%3Aeng_gb%2Ccomputer+disk%3Aeng_gb&year_start=1950&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>
Hmmm ... The "-ettes" would imply "small" ... so were there BIGGER
floppies common before then ???
On 15/09/25 14:24, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:32:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who used
the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
iirc the 5120 referred to them as diskettes too. 'floppy' is too
reminiscent of LSMFT.
Liposclerosing myxofibrous tumour?
We did weeks of programming to achieve, mostly, tabulations that, 5 or
so years later, any informed user of SPSS or BMDP or SAS could set up
and KEYPUNCH within an hour.
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! M|-an F||mhair, scr|!obh Hibou:
>
>
> I think it's a Transpondian difference:
>
> <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=computer+disc%3Aeng_us%2Ccomputer+disk%3Aeng_us%2Ccomputer+disc%3Aeng_gb%2Ccomputer+disk%3Aeng_gb&year_start=1950&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>
What I learned in the 1990s (studying computer science in Dublin, Ireland) was
to use rCLdiscrCY for CDs and rCLdiskrCY for anything else computer-related; I
understand rCLcompact discrCY was explicitly chosen as the name when the format was
created. So what Steve says. I donrCOt think that last graph suggests a strong
side-of-the-Atlantic effect.
My understanding was (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and ifI haven't seen an 8" disc. In Denmark in private circles we used
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8" = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
Hmmm ... The "-ettes" would imply "small" ... so were
-a there BIGGER floppies common before then ???
-a Best I remember, just spools of mag tape.
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 00:53:14 -0400, Rich Ulrich wrote:Amen to that.
We did weeks of programming to achieve, mostly, tabulations that, 5 or
so years later, any informed user of SPSS or BMDP or SAS could set up
and KEYPUNCH within an hour.
I learned FORTRAN IV in that era and decided programming wasn't for me. I became interested about 10 years later when the advent of microcontrollers meant you didn't need a large, air conditioned building and endless hours
to get anything done.
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:58:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmmm ... The "-ettes" would imply "small" ... so were there BIGGER
floppies common before then ???
Compared to the 1316 disk pack anything is a 'ette'.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/toepfer/420889929
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier),
and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
My first programming job, 1968, was on an IBM 1130, with two
(external) disks and 16K of 16 bit words. Or maybe that was 8K --
I seem to remember that only about 4K was available for program
space if system routines for I/O were called and therefore loaded.
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
Personally I never handled anything bigger than 8". And they were a
rarity by the time I started coding, 51/4" was the norm then for several years.
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:32:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who used
the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
iirc the 5120 referred to them as diskettes too. 'floppy' is too
reminiscent of LSMFT.
of diversity. At least without specialized hardware - our computer
club had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an
S-100 card which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
On Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:58:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmmm ... The "-ettes" would imply "small" ... so were there BIGGER
floppies common before then ???
Compared to the 1316 disk pack anything is a 'ette'.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/toepfer/420889929
Den 15.09.2025 kl. 05.20 skrev Steve Hayes:
My understanding was-a (is?) that if it's magnetic it's a disk and ifI haven't seen an 8" disc. In Denmark in private circles we used
it's optical it's a disc.
Strictly speaking
8"-a = floppy
5-+" = mini-floppy
3-+" = micro-floppy
but in practice we (in South Africa) referred to the 5-+" ones as
floppies and the 3-+" ones as stiffies.
And anything smaller than 8" was a "diskette".
"floppy" for the 5-+" discs, and we did the same with 3-+" discs but gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a reliability".
On 15/09/2025 04:58, c186282 wrote:
Hmmm ... The "-ettes" would imply "small" ... so were
-a-a there BIGGER floppies common before then ???
-a-a Best I remember, just spools of mag tape.
Y'know I vaguely remember something bigger than an 8".
"The largest floppy disk, which had a diameter of 12 inches, was indeed
used primarily with large IBM systems in the 1970s and early 1980s. This format is often referred to as the "12-inch floppy disk" or "IBM 3840
floppy disk." While most common floppy disks were 3.5 inches, 5.25
inches, and 8 inches in size, the 12-inch disk was used for data storage
in mainframe computers and required specialized drives."
Now that is from reddit so its provenance is automatically suspect
But other people mention them, and I am sure my memory is of something
IBM and mainframe-ish.
Other people deny that any such existed...
Personally I never handled anything bigger than 8". And they were a
rarity by the time I started coding, 51/4" was the norm then for several years.
-a Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a reliability".
On the other hand, there was a plethora of incompatible
5 1/4" formats (at least before IBM steamrolled them), making it
difficult to exchange data back in the days when there was a lot of diversity. At least without specialized hardware - our computer club
had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an S-100 card
which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier), >>>> and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
Platters were typically 14 inches in diameter.
My first programming job, 1968, was on an IBM 1130, with two
(external) disks and 16K of 16 bit words. Or maybe that was 8K --
I seem to remember that only about 4K was available for program
space if system routines for I/O were called and therefore loaded.
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
That was the 1620, wasn't it?
On 2025-09-15, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:32:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Eight-inchers were diskettes too. At least according to IBM, who used
the term in all of their documentation (e.g. for the 3740).
iirc the 5120 referred to them as diskettes too. 'floppy' is too
reminiscent of LSMFT.
OS/MFT
OS/MVT
LS/MFT
TGIF
-- Ted Nelson: Computer Lib
On 2025-09-15 10:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier), >>>>> and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
Platters were typically 14 inches in diameter.
My first programming job, 1968, was on an IBM 1130, with two
(external) disks and 16K of 16 bit words. Or maybe that was 8K --
I seem to remember that only about 4K was available for program
space if system routines for I/O were called and therefore loaded.
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
That was the 1620, wasn't it?
Perhaps. Memory not what it used to be. I know BCIT had one when I
serviced their stuff.
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-15 10:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
Yes. "Proper" disks were the size of dinner plates (and a lot heavier), >>>>>> and could hold something like one megabyte of data.
Platters were typically 14 inches in diameter.
My first programming job, 1968, was on an IBM 1130, with two
(external) disks and 16K of 16 bit words. Or maybe that was 8K --
I seem to remember that only about 4K was available for program
space if system routines for I/O were called and therefore loaded.
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
That was the 1620, wasn't it?
Perhaps. Memory not what it used to be. I know BCIT had one when I
serviced their stuff.
Funny you should say that. The one 1620 I got to play with was BCIT's.
A friend taking classes there asked for help with a programming course...
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
In Denmark in private circles we used
"floppy" for the 5-+" discs, and we did the same with 3-+" discs but
gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
-a Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a reliability".
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range, vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to mention electromagnetic compatibility - and restrict what can be used. Space is
even more demanding.
Le 16/09/2025 |a 06:43, Hibou a |-crit :
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range,
vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to
mention electromagnetic compatibility - and restrict what can be used.
Space is even more demanding.
And then there are the users. Army equipment, for example, has to be 'squaddie proof'.
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 16:51:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On the other hand, there was a plethora of incompatible
5 1/4" formats (at least before IBM steamrolled them), making it
difficult to exchange data back in the days when there was a lot of
diversity. At least without specialized hardware - our computer club
had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an S-100 card
which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
I had a CP/M utility that could read quite a few formats that were created with the Western Digital floppy controllers but no where near 400
flavors.
You'd be surprised to know which CPUs are used when sending rockets to
the moon: 8080-CPUs for the reasons you mentioned.
Maybe it's different in newer rockets, but it's true for the first ones.
Le 15/09/2025 |a 21:16, c186282 a |-crit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software people
used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper tape. (I
haven't myself, only punched cards.)
In Denmark in private circles we used
"floppy" for the 5-+" discs, and we did the same with 3-+" discs but
gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
-a-a Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a-a reliability".
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range, vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to mention compatibility - and restrict what can be used. Space is
even more demanding.
On 9/16/25 01:43, Hibou wrote:
Le 15/09/2025 a 21:16, c186282 a ocrit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software people
used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper tape. (I
haven't myself, only punched cards.)
Only used paper tape a few times, on a PDP-11.
It *works* ... but ....--
Somewhere there's a vid of some guy with an old
PDP-11. He uses a strip of paper tape to load the
address of the original web page (which still exists,
writ by the people who invented http pages).
In Denmark in private circles we used
"floppy" for the 5+" discs, and we did the same with 3+" discs but
gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
aa Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
aa finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
aa mil systems/equipment. Wow !
aa Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
aa reliability".
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range,
vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to
mention compatibility - and restrict what can be used. Space is even
more demanding.
Wide tracks can surely resist a little vibration and
temperature flexing better than a media where it's
all seriously packed in.
But, and a few others here have noted it, for govt
projects you tend to go with what's already known,
things known functional. That's going to be older
equipment, not the latest and greatest. Then you
are STUCK with the old stuff.
US mil ... tech equipment probably gets specced five
to ten years before the actual plane or submarine or
rocket is manufactured.
But, and a few others here have noted it, for govt
projects you tend to go with what's already known,
things known functional. That's going to be older
equipment, not the latest and greatest. Then you
are STUCK with the old stuff.
On 2025-09-15 17:17, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-15 10:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
That was the 1620, wasn't it?
Perhaps. Memory not what it used to be. I know BCIT had one when I
serviced their stuff.
Funny you should say that. The one 1620 I got to play with was BCIT's.
A friend taking classes there asked for help with a programming course...
I never did anything on the 1620, programming or otherwise. I was
servicing their 360/30 system while working for Comma Services.
Did you ever meet a fellow named Scriabin? I can't remember his first
name. He worked for BCIT and I think he had something to do with the 1620.
On 2025-09-15 22:51, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 16:51:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
-a On the other hand, there was a plethora of incompatible
5 1/4" formats (at least before IBM steamrolled them), making it
difficult to exchange data back in the days when there was a lot of
diversity.-a At least without specialized hardware - our computer club
had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an S-100 card
which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
I had a CP/M utility that could read quite a few formats that were
created
with the Western Digital floppy controllers but no where near 400
flavors.
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland), so
I understand that the number of formats it can handle is infinite.
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland),
-a Only used paper tape a few times, on a PDP-11.
-a It *works* ... but ....
On 16/09/2025 11:44, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-15 22:51, rbowman wrote:Not really. the floppy drives had limitations
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 16:51:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
a On the other hand, there was a plethora of incompatible
5 1/4" formats (at least before IBM steamrolled them), making it
difficult to exchange data back in the days when there was a lot of
diversity.a At least without specialized hardware - our computer club
had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an S-100 card >>>> which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
I had a CP/M utility that could read quite a few formats that were
created
with the Western Digital floppy controllers but no where near 400
flavors.
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland), so
I understand that the number of formats it can handle is infinite.
Whenever I see the heading "Floppies" in the newsgroup I
think it's a support group for men who suffer Erectile
Disfunction
or women who need large bra sizes.
On 2025-09-16, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-15 17:17, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:I never did anything on the 1620, programming or otherwise. I was
On 2025-09-15 10:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-15, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
Ahh... the good old CADET. We discussed this before, methinks
That was the 1620, wasn't it?
Perhaps. Memory not what it used to be. I know BCIT had one when I
serviced their stuff.
Funny you should say that. The one 1620 I got to play with was BCIT's.
A friend taking classes there asked for help with a programming course... >>
servicing their 360/30 system while working for Comma Services.
Did you ever meet a fellow named Scriabin? I can't remember his first
name. He worked for BCIT and I think he had something to do with the 1620.
I never met any BCIT staff - this student friend just took me into
the machine room and turned me loose. In my spare time I wrote a
tic-tac-toe program for the 1620 and played with it for a while.
Eventually the typebar that contained the vertical bar wore out -
the character started printing wonky, and finally the slug broke off
and flew right out of the machine.
The only Scriabin I know of is the Russian composer.
Le 15/09/2025 |a 21:16, c186282 a |-crit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software people
used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper tape. (I
haven't myself, only punched cards.)
In Denmark in private circles we used
"floppy" for the 5-+" discs, and we did the same with 3-+" discs but
gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
-a-a Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a-a reliability".
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range, vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to mention electromagnetic compatibility - and restrict what can be used. Space is
even more demanding.
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland), so
I understand that the number of formats it can handle is infinite.
Den 16.09.2025 kl. 12.44 skrev Carlos E.R.:
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland),
The 3-+" floppies could hold 720 kByte when used on a PC. If you set up config.sys correctly, it could handle 144 kByte.
I haven't tried other formats on a PC, but I would be surprised if it
could handle other formats - without formatting.
The standard PC boot sector contains disk geometry info which can *theoretically* represent a wide range of disk formats; I'm not sureOn the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even
userland),
The 3+" floppies could hold 720 kByte when used on a PC. If you set
up config.sys correctly, it could handle 144 kByte.
I haven't tried other formats on a PC, but I would be surprised if it
could handle other formats - without formatting.
Den 16.09.2025 kl. 17.38 skrev c186282:
-a Only used paper tape a few times, on a PDP-11.
-a It *works* ... but ....
The first computer I came in contact with, was from Regnecentralen - the first Danish company to produce computers.It consisted of a box around
60 cm * 40 cm * 200 cm. It was connected to thre TTYs. The memory
available to the users was 17 kByte in all. It used paper tape also to
load the OS. I could punch out the Basic programs that I wrote.
Den 16.09.2025 kl. 12.44 skrev Carlos E.R.:
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland),
The 3-+" floppies could hold 720 kByte when used on a PC. If you set up config.sys correctly, it could handle 144 kByte.
I haven't tried other formats on a PC, but I would be surprised if it
could handle other formats - without formatting.
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 20:28:35 +0200
Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even
userland),
The 3-+" floppies could hold 720 kByte when used on a PC. If you set
up config.sys correctly, it could handle 144 kByte.
I haven't tried other formats on a PC, but I would be surprised if it
could handle other formats - without formatting.
The standard PC boot sector contains disk geometry info which can *theoretically* represent a wide range of disk formats; I'm not sure
how far that can practically be pushed. The MS-DOS FORMAT utility
supported a lot more options for disk sizes, but I don't know if it
could read any arbitrary geometry as specified in the boot sector.
The controller itself imposed some limitations as well (at least some
of the parameters were shared across both drives on the ribbon, which
made for interesting times if one was trying to access a non-standard
format while running off a floppy in a standard format!) And only FM/
MFM encoding was supported, which meant that GCR-format disks (Apple
II, 400/800KB Mac, most Commodore) couldn't be accessed in any case.
Le 15/09/2025 |a 21:16, c186282 a |-crit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software
people used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper
tape. (I haven't myself, only punched cards.)
That taught me a programming philosophy that lasted me for a lot of my
life. Instead of debugging, get it right the first time. You spend a lot
of time writing it down on paper and desk-checking before committing it
to paper tape.
These days, I must admit, I also spend a lot of time revising my
programs. My deteriorating eyesight means that I make a lot more typos
than I used to, so my first compilation of a program will give a couple
of dozen error messages. Then I fix those, compile again, and still get
a bunch of error messages. It's a time-wasting approach, compared with getting it right the first time, but that's what I have been reduced to.
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
On 16/09/25 15:43, Hibou wrote:
Le 15/09/2025 |a 21:16, c186282 a |-crit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software
people used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper
tape. (I haven't myself, only punched cards.)
Our university department bought one of the first PDP-11s. The starting
point was when two departments (electrical and mechanical engineering)
each had funding to buy a calculator. I pointed out that if they pooled
that money they could afford to buy a PDP-8. Then, at the last minute,
the DEC salesman mentioned that they were bringing out a new
minicomputer that was better than a PDP-8.
I had to stay up all night to run my programs on the PDP-11/20, because that's when it was available. The first step was to key in a short
loader using the front panel switches. That would load a better binary
loader from paper tape. Then I could load the assembler, also from paper tape, which took a long time. Then finally my own program, also on paper
tape that I had punched earlier.
That taught me a programming philosophy that lasted me for a lot of my
life. Instead of debugging, get it right the first time. You spend a lot
of time writing it down on paper and desk-checking before committing it
to paper tape.
Some years later I tried this out in one of the classes I taught. I gave
a programming assignment, and told them they would get only one run.
That is, it had to work the first time. Amazingly, about 80% of the
class succeeded. These were students who would normally spend hours
revising and debugging.
These days, I must admit, I also spend a lot of time revising my
programs. My deteriorating eyesight means that I make a lot more typos
than I used to, so my first compilation of a program will give a couple
of dozen error messages. Then I fix those, compile again, and still get
a bunch of error messages. It's a time-wasting approach, compared with getting it right the first time, but that's what I have been reduced to.
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:58:00 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
DECs shot at the PC world before they became a footnote in history. "We'll use this weird format and not provide a format utility so you'll have to
buy the diskettes from us!" The Rainbow was an interesting machine but
that ploy and the home grown DOs didn't win it many friends.
On 2025-09-16 18:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
These days, I must admit, I also spend a lot of time revising my
programs. My deteriorating eyesight means that I make a lot more typos
than I used to, so my first compilation of a program will give a couple
of dozen error messages. Then I fix those, compile again, and still get
a bunch of error messages. It's a time-wasting approach, compared with
getting it right the first time, but that's what I have been reduced to.
Reminds me of a song...
There's ninety nine little bugs in the code.
Ninety Nine little bugs.
Fix one bug, compile it again.
There's a hundred and three litle bugs in the code
....
Tony Cooper wrote:
Whenever I see the heading "Floppies" in the newsgroup I
think it's a support group for men who suffer Erectile
Disfunction
Once a very important subject for Usenet users... judging by
all the "Buy Viagra" spam that newsgroups used to be infected
with!
or women who need large bra sizes.
Those floppies were affectionately called "sweater puppies"
back in the day! ;-)
On 2025-09-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:58:00 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
DECs shot at the PC world before they became a footnote in history. "We'll >> use this weird format and not provide a format utility so you'll have to
buy the diskettes from us!" The Rainbow was an interesting machine but
that ploy and the home grown DOs didn't win it many friends.
One place where I worked had a couple of dedicated word processors
(remember them?) made by AES,
who tried the same trick. When we added
the CP/M option, I discovered that FORMAT.COM would happily format
floppies that you could buy at the local computer store for half the
price so that they'd work in native mode.
I long ago read an article in a magazine that explained and included software to write and read floppies with a lot more capacity. I don't
want to write a figure, because I don't remember. It played with gap
sizes and numbers.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2025 10:44:44 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
These days, I must admit, I also spend a lot of time revising my
programs. My deteriorating eyesight means that I make a lot more typos
than I used to, so my first compilation of a program will give a couple
of dozen error messages. Then I fix those, compile again, and still get
a bunch of error messages. It's a time-wasting approach, compared with
getting it right the first time, but that's what I have been reduced to.
I had some eye surgeries a couple of years ago but prior to that I had
fun. Python has list comprehensions that use [] and generator expressions that use (). The generators save memory but they are a one-shot and you can't iterate over the same generator twice. A list comprehension is built in memory and can be reused.
Of course, I used () by mistake and couldn't figure out why it worked one time and the difference between [ and ( on a laptop screen didn't exactly jump out at me.
On 2025-09-17 08:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:58:00 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
DECs shot at the PC world before they became a footnote in history.
"We'll
use this weird format and not provide a format utility so you'll have to >>> buy the diskettes from us!" The Rainbow was an interesting machine but
that ploy and the home grown DOs didn't win it many friends.
One place where I worked had a couple of dedicated word processors
(remember them?) made by AES,
I remember machines sold as word processors, yes. One by Amstrad, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_PCW
With a Z80 cpu.
-2All models except the last shipped with the Locoscript word processing program, the CP/M Plus operating system, Mallard BASIC and the Logo programming language at no extra cost. The last model, PcW16, used a
custom GUI operating system. -+
who tried the same trick. When we added
the CP/M option, I discovered that FORMAT.COM would happily format
floppies that you could buy at the local computer store for half the
price so that they'd work in native mode.
I also remember typewriters with an LCD display. You typed, then it
printed the line after checking, I think.
The choice of font or rendering method can affect this a lot, just for a >small comparison, take Terminus and LatArCyrHeb, the former seems, at
least for some sizes, to focus on "thinner" lines, the latter has
"blocky" chars. Depending on your eyesight, I guess you may prefer one
or the other simply based on that.
On 2025-09-17, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2025 10:44:44 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
These days, I must admit, I also spend a lot of time revising my
programs. My deteriorating eyesight means that I make a lot more typos
than I used to, so my first compilation of a program will give a couple
of dozen error messages. Then I fix those, compile again, and still get
a bunch of error messages. It's a time-wasting approach, compared with
getting it right the first time, but that's what I have been reduced to.
I had some eye surgeries a couple of years ago but prior to that I had
fun. Python has list comprehensions that use [] and generator expressions
that use (). The generators save memory but they are a one-shot and you
can't iterate over the same generator twice. A list comprehension is built >> in memory and can be reused.
Of course, I used () by mistake and couldn't figure out why it worked one
time and the difference between [ and ( on a laptop screen didn't exactly
jump out at me.
The choice of font or rendering method can affect this a lot, just for a small comparison, take Terminus and LatArCyrHeb, the former seems, at
least for some sizes, to focus on "thinner" lines, the latter has
"blocky" chars. Depending on your eyesight, I guess you may prefer one
or the other simply based on that.
Under X11, in my experience it often boils down to anything with
antialiasing rendering worse. It easily loses the contrast and sharpness
that comes for granted with a bitmap font. (Yes, things can be tweaked
in the font rendering library for non-bitmap fonts, but I've yet to
achieve something that's as readable as bitmap fonts.)
On 16/09/2025 23:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I long ago read an article in a magazine that explained and included
software to write and read floppies with a lot more capacity. I don't want >> to write a figure, because I don't remember. It played with gap sizes and >> numbers.
I wrote a bios to read and write floppy disks for a minicomputer control system. Based on IIRC an 80988
it was the rom based boot computer that would
load software from floppy to pass along to the main computer - which I think might have been a bit slice thing. This would have been mid 60s I think.
I
cant remember exactly what the drive specs were, but it was relatively easy to implement a FAT filesystem and directories good enough to make a Clib that
could use the standard IO format calls to read and write and IBM DOS compatible floppy.
ISTR I interfaced to a WD floppy disk controller chip. So whatever that chip could do I could have done in software, though I never strayed outside the area of 'compatible with MSDOS'
it was the rom based boot computer that would load software from
floppy to pass along to the main computer - which I think might have
been a bit slice thing. This would have been mid 60s I think.
Floppies in the mid-60s?-a Mid-60s "small computers" were the PDP-8 and
the Nova, and the PDP-8 used DecTape when it didn't have a hard disk,
and as portable storage when it did have a hard disk.
I cant remember exactly what the drive specs were, but it was
relatively easy to implement a FAT filesystem and directories good
enough to make a Clib that could use the standard IO format calls to
read and write and IBM DOS compatible floppy.
ISTR I interfaced to a WD floppy disk controller chip. So whatever
that chip could do I could have done in software, though I never
strayed outside the area of 'compatible with MSDOS'
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
/dps--
I had to stay up all night to run my programs on the PDP-11/20, because that's when it was available. The first step was to key in a short
loader using the front panel switches. That would load a better binary
loader from paper tape. Then I could load the assembler, also from paper tape, which took a long time. Then finally my own program, also on paper
tape that I had punched earlier.
That taught me a programming philosophy that lasted me for a lot of my
life. Instead of debugging, get it right the first time. You spend a lot
of time writing it down on paper and desk-checking before committing it
to paper tape.
Peter's right-by-design method is best, though. Bugs can lie quiet for
an age before finally causing a failure. From fly-by-wire to fry-by-wire
in one line of code.
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
I remember when Wang were big (no sniggering at the back, please) in
Word Processing.
On 2025-09-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:58:00 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
DECs shot at the PC world before they became a footnote in history. "We'll >> use this weird format and not provide a format utility so you'll have to
buy the diskettes from us!" The Rainbow was an interesting machine but
that ploy and the home grown DOs didn't win it many friends.
One place where I worked had a couple of dedicated word processors
(remember them?) made by AES, who tried the same trick. When we added
the CP/M option, I discovered that FORMAT.COM would happily format
floppies that you could buy at the local computer store for half the
price so that they'd work in native mode.
On 17/09/2025 18:50, Snidely wrote:
Did I say that? Mid 80s.it was the rom based boot computer that would load software from
floppy to pass along to the main computer - which I think might have
been a bit slice thing. This would have been mid 60s I think.
Floppies in the mid-60s?-a Mid-60s "small computers" were the PDP-8 andThat gybes. I think it was 1985- 1987.
the Nova, and the PDP-8 used DecTape when it didn't have a hard disk,
and as portable storage when it did have a hard disk.
I cant remember exactly what the drive specs were, but it was
relatively easy to implement a FAT filesystem and directories good
enough to make a Clib that could use the standard IO format calls to
read and write and IBM DOS compatible floppy.
ISTR I interfaced to a WD floppy disk controller chip. So whatever
that chip could do I could have done in software, though I never
strayed outside the area of 'compatible with MSDOS'
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
I cant find any trace of who the company was.
/dps
Den 16.09.2025 kl. 17.38 skrev c186282:
-a-a Only used paper tape a few times, on a PDP-11.
-a-a It *works* ... but ....
The first computer I came in contact with, was from Regnecentralen - the first Danish company to produce computers.It consisted of a box around
60 cm * 40 cm * 200 cm. It was connected to thre TTYs. The memory
available to the users was 17 kByte in all. It used paper tape also to
load the OS. I could punch out the Basic programs that I wrote.
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 18:36:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 16/09/2025 11:44, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-15 22:51, rbowman wrote:Not really. the floppy drives had limitations
On Mon, 15 Sep 2025 16:51:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
-a On the other hand, there was a plethora of incompatible
5 1/4" formats (at least before IBM steamrolled them), making it
difficult to exchange data back in the days when there was a lot of
diversity.-a At least without specialized hardware - our computer club >>>>> had a special floppy controller known as the Disk Maker, an S-100 card >>>>> which could handle 400 different 5 1/4" formats.
I had a CP/M utility that could read quite a few formats that were
created
with the Western Digital floppy controllers but no where near 400
flavors.
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland), so >>> I understand that the number of formats it can handle is infinite.
Whenever I see the heading "Floppies" in the newsgroup I think it's a
support group for men who suffer Erectile Disfunction or women who
need large bra sizes.
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 12:44:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On the PC the format was handled in software (BIOS or even userland), so
I understand that the number of formats it can handle is infinite.
https://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/129527/NEC/UPD765A.html
The PC originally used the UPD765.
https://www.isdaman.com/alsos/hardware/fdc/floppy.htm
There were limitations.
On Tuesday, Peter Moylan exclaimed wildly:
I had to stay up all night to run my programs on the PDP-11/20,
because that's when it was available. The first step was to key in
a short loader using the front panel switches. That would load a
better binary loader from paper tape. Then I could load the
assembler, also from paper tape, which took a long time. Then
finally my own program, also on paper tape that I had punched
earlier.
11/20s didn't have disks?
But there were many potential track layouts and
how the data was encoded there was kind of up
to the computer-maker. Through the 80s and kind
of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick
to their hardware ... your C64 disk wasn't going
to play well in an Apple-II
Through the 80s and kind
-a of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick
-a to their hardware ... your C64 disk wasn't going
-a to play well in an Apple-II
On 17/09/2025 23:54, c186282 wrote:
Through the 80s and kind
-a-a of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick
-a-a to their hardware ... your C64 disk wasn't going
-a-a to play well in an Apple-II
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for, interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
That need and concept first arose with CP/M which, IIRC was developed
from an Intel development station by Gary Kildall, who originally
developed CP/M during 1974 as an operating system to run on an Intel Intellec-8 development system, equipped with a Shugart Associates 8-inch floppy-disk drive interfaced via a custom floppy-disk controller.
So that became the standard then. Later on CP/M moved to 5 1/4" drives
and that became a new standard...
Then IBM told everyone else what the standard was going to be. End of.
STFU and use it.
On 17/09/2025 18:50, Snidely wrote:
That gybes. I think it was 1985- 1987.ISTR I interfaced to a WD floppy disk controller chip. So whatever
that chip could do I could have done in software, though I never
strayed outside the area of 'compatible with MSDOS'
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
I cant find any trace of who the company was.
On 17/09/2025 07:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:58:00 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Well, yes, the disks had to be formatted. A tool like PCTools Backup
would format and write in one operation, almost at hard disk speed.
DECs shot at the PC world before they became a footnote in history. "We'll >>> use this weird format and not provide a format utility so you'll have to >>> buy the diskettes from us!" The Rainbow was an interesting machine but
that ploy and the home grown DOs didn't win it many friends.
One place where I worked had a couple of dedicated word processors
(remember them?) made by AES, who tried the same trick. When we added
the CP/M option, I discovered that FORMAT.COM would happily format
floppies that you could buy at the local computer store for half the
price so that they'd work in native mode.
The firm I worked for had one of those - the daisywheel printer gave a
high quality print for formal documents and the WP operators were all specially trained in... whatever the software was.
IIRC, those 8" floppy discs were said to be hard sector formatted, which
was why you couldn't get your discs from other sources.
That information was very much second hand, so I have no idea if it was correct.
On 17/09/2025 23:54, c186282 wrote:
Through the 80s and kind
-a of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick to their hardware
-a ... your C64 disk wasn't going to play well in an Apple-II
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for, interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
That need and concept first arose with CP/M which, IIRC was developed
from an Intel development station by Gary Kildall, who originally
developed CP/M during 1974 as an operating system to run on an Intel Intellec-8 development system, equipped with a Shugart Associates 8-inch floppy-disk drive interfaced via a custom floppy-disk controller.
So that became the standard then. Later on CP/M moved to 5 1/4" drives
and that became a new standard...
Then IBM told everyone else what the standard was going to be. End of.
STFU and use it.
On 18/09/25 08:54, c186282 wrote:
-a-a But there were many potential track layouts and
-a-a how the data was encoded there was kind of up
-a-a to the computer-maker. Through the 80s and kind
-a-a of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick
-a-a to their hardware ... your C64 disk wasn't going
-a-a to play well in an Apple-II
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
I once tried to write a compiler for the C64. I gave up when I
discovered that an early version of my compiler took many hours to
compile itself.
On 9/17/25 16:43, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 18/09/25 08:54, c186282 wrote:
-a-a But there were many potential track layouts and
-a-a how the data was encoded there was kind of up
-a-a to the computer-maker. Through the 80s and kind
-a-a of into the 90s makers made sure you had to stick
-a-a to their hardware ... your C64 disk wasn't going
-a-a to play well in an Apple-II
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
-a-a-a-aThe same ones who decided that 6502 in the C=64 and in the VIC-1541 were a
good idea.-a The C=64 was the most popular computer model of all time and due to
the advances of science and technology that sort of situation is
unlikely to arise
again.
-a-a-a-aIt was horribly slow in many respects.-a I learned with the word processor
I once tried to write a compiler for the C64. I gave up when I
discovered that an early version of my compiler took many hours to
compile itself.
"PaperClip" how to insert formating codes for the dot matrix 9 pin printer.
-a-a-a-aAnd it was better than nothing by a long shot and much cheaper than the IBM PC that happened along with bad graphics.
Yeah, I wasn't happy about IBM's choices but at least it was the end of
the Wild West era.
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
I once tried to write a compiler for the C64. I gave up when I
discovered that an early version of my compiler took many hours to
compile itself.
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
The same ones who decided that 6502 in the C=64 and in the VIC-1541
were a good idea.-a The C=64 was the most popular computer model of all time and
due to the advances of science and technology that sort of situation is unlikely to arise again.
-a-a-a-aIt was horribly slow in many respects.-a I learned with the word processor--
"PaperClip" how to insert formating codes for the dot matrix 9 pin printer.
-a-a-a-aAnd it was better than nothing by a long shot and much cheaper than the IBM PC that happened along with bad graphics.
-a As for floppies ... had a C64 with dual floppies.
-a They worked perfectly. Not "fast", but well.
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for, interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 02.55 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for,
interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
On the contrary. The companies were competing against each other, so
they used their own standards.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 06.13 skrev Bobbie Sellers:
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
-aThe same ones who decided that 6502 in the C=64 and in the VIC-1541
were a good idea.-a The C=64 was the most popular computer model of all
time and due to the advances of science and technology that sort of
situation is unlikely to arise again.
The CBM64 was an advanced computer with separate processors for work, graphics and sound. It was incredible how different hacker groups could tweak it to do things that you thought impossible.
-a-a-a-a-aIt was horribly slow in many respects.-a I learned with the word >> processor "PaperClip" how to insert formating code
s for the dot matrix 9 pin printer.
-a-a-a-a-aAnd it was better than nothing by a long shot and much cheaper than
the IBM PC that happened along with bad graphics.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 02.55 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for,
interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
On the contrary. The companies were competing against each other, so
they used their own standards.
A hard drive on my Amiga 1000 was my first speed upgrade and it was $346
US for a 100 Megabyte SCSI drive. I had gotten a smaller used drive but
it was not usable.
On 18/09/2025 04:55, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't happy about IBM's choices but at least it was the end of
the Wild West era.
Indeed. Really a 68000 might have been a better choice.
But as you say, it brought a much needed - if flawed - standard..
The same ones who decided that 6502 in the C=64 and in theVIC-1541
were a
good idea. The C=64 was the most popular computer model of all time and
due to the advances of science and technology that sort of situation is unlikely to arise again.
Never cuss the C64 ... it was GREAT for its time and place. Launched
a whole new gen of innovative coders too.
I spent a lot of time deciding to buy one and the disk drivewhich
more expensive than the computer both of which i bought on sale at
Pacific Stereo a now defunct chain store for audio in those distant
days. The floppies were so expensive. I made some money with it doing
book keeping for a man who had neglected for about 5 years his
accounting.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 02.55 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for,
interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
On the contrary. The companies were competing against each other, so
they used their own standards.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 01.43 skrev Peter Moylan:
Actually, a C64 disk didn't even play well in a Commodore 64. What kind
of idiot would think of connecting a disk drive via a slow serial port?
Well, it worked.
I once tried to write a compiler for the C64. I gave up when I
discovered that an early version of my compiler took many hours to
compile itself.
I once got hold of two compilers for the CBM64. They compiled BASIC
programs so they would run faster - a factor two if I remember
correctly.
On 2025-09-18, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
A hard drive on my Amiga 1000 was my first speed upgrade and it was $346
US for a 100 Megabyte SCSI drive. I had gotten a smaller used drive but
it was not usable.
That must have been some time on. The first hard drive I saw for an
Amiga 1000 held 20 megabytes and cost $2000. What I finally wound up
with was a locally produced board called the Wedge, which fit onto the A1000's expansion port and converted it to an ISA bus, into which you
could plug a Western Digital 1003 controller and run an ST506 drive.
The Wedge wasn't dedicated to disk controllers, but was fairly general -
once just for laughs I plugged an ISA serial card into it instead and
wrote a program that tickled it enough to drive a modem.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2025 10:50:34 -0700, Snidely wrote:
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/ Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
1976, I believe although that datasheet is dated March 1978. It was very popular with CP/M systems. The downside was its flexibility and many different formats were developed.--
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the page
was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and searchable.
:-?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 08:47:16 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I spent a lot of time deciding to buy one and the disk drivewhich
was
more expensive than the computer both of which i bought on sale at
Pacific Stereo a now defunct chain store for audio in those distant
days. The floppies were so expensive. I made some money with it doing
book keeping for a man who had neglected for about 5 years his
accounting.
You were low rent. I drove over to Manchester NH to buy an Osborne 1 as
soon as it was released in 1981. It was $1795. It paid for itself.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 09:32:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/09/2025 04:55, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't happy about IBM's choices but at least it was the
end of the Wild West era.
Indeed. Really a 68000 might have been a better choice.
But as you say, it brought a much needed - if flawed - standard..
Motorola's ability to produce 68008s was questionable. Motorola also
had a bad rep of hanging you out to dry if they got an order for
millions of devices from the automotive industry.
You have to take in account the early '80s. The nation was recovering
from the inflationary years after Nixon's wage and price controls
unraveled. It wasn't uncommon for suppliers to quote deliveries of
over a year. You designed around what you could get.
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the PAL processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
In terms of instruction set design, the Intel processors were and still
are crap. But Intel won out over Motorola because of things like
fabrication quality and ability to produce chips in quantity.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 13:22:42 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 02.55 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
I don't think there was any concept of, or perceived need for,
interoperability. It wasn't any DarkPlotrao.
On the contrary. The companies were competing against each other, so
they used their own standards.
Perhaps, but in the '70s everybody was more or less winging it.
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 09:32:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/09/2025 04:55, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't happy about IBM's choices but at least it was the
end of the Wild West era.
Indeed. Really a 68000 might have been a better choice.
But as you say, it brought a much needed - if flawed - standard..
Motorola's ability to produce 68008s was questionable. Motorola also
had a bad rep of hanging you out to dry if they got an order for
millions of devices from the automotive industry.
You have to take in account the early '80s. The nation was recovering
from the inflationary years after Nixon's wage and price controls
unraveled. It wasn't uncommon for suppliers to quote deliveries of
over a year. You designed around what you could get.
In terms of instruction set design, the Intel processors were and still
are crap. But Intel won out over Motorola because of things like
fabrication quality and ability to produce chips in quantity.
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the PAL
processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of choice
for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that powerful, and
it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a personal computer,
but it was rugged and it was available.
Of course I am low rent. I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
and
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty. A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive taste for
my economic class.
I'm willing to chalk it up to independent creation. Later the different companies realized that they could talk to each other -
and didn't. And NIH and vendor lock-ins were born.
On 9/18/25 19:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the
PAL processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of
choice for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that
powerful, and it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a
personal computer, but it was rugged and it was available.
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Of course I am low rent. I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
and
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty. A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little anomalies like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a glimpse into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a glimpse into another world.
I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
In terms of instruction set design, the Intel processors were and still
are crap. But Intel won out over Motorola because of things like
fabrication quality and ability to produce chips in quantity.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of choice
for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that powerful, and
it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a personal computer,
but it was rugged and it was available.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Of course I am low rent. I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
and
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty. A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little anomalies like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a glimpse into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
I get the AARP mags too. Too much seems to be selling
to the 8+ digit crowd while most AARP members are
lucky to cover the monthly bills with their pension
checks and meager investment interest.
The "simple life" was actually
-a parasitical.
I'm willing to chalk it up to independent creation. Later the
different companies realized that they could talk to each other -
and didn't. And NIH and vendor lock-ins were born.
On 2025-09-17 22:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2025 10:50:34 -0700, Snidely wrote:
The FD1771 chip was introduced around 1980, it seems.
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the page
was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and searchable.
:-?
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote or quoted:
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the page
was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and searchable.
:-?
So you take a page or a book, snap a digital photo of it, and
then OCR layers in text you can copy or search while you still
see the original photo. People do this all the time now.
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the page
was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and searchable.
Especially if you remember the limitation on graphics: A block[1] couldThe CBM64 was an advanced computer with separate processors for work,
graphics and sound. It was incredible how different hacker groups
could tweak it to do things that you thought impossible.
-a-a-a-aYes it was marvelous how the playful coders could do lots of stuff that
seemed unlikely.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote or quoted:
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the page >>was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and searchable.
:-?
So you take a page or a book, snap a digital photo of it, and
then OCR layers in text you can copy or search while you still
see the original photo. People do this all the time now.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will
change. Here's the last part of the first section copied:
defined by a program.:
rned heade'r asshown below:
One 8x8 character cell, to be precise, or 4x8 if you're using 2-bppThe CBM64 was an advanced computer with separate processors for
work, graphics and sound. It was incredible how different hacker
groups could tweak it to do things that you thought impossible.
aaaaYes it was marvelous how the playful coders could do lots ofEspecially if you remember the limitation on graphics: A block[1]
stuff that
seemed unlikely.
could hold at most four different colours at the same time and only
16 colours to choose from.
[1] A block was something like 3*3 mm# - if my memory serves me well.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will change.
Here's the last part of the first section copied:
-a-a-a-a-a defined by a program.:
-a-a-a-a-a rned heade'r asshown below:
On 19/09/25 14:20, c186282 wrote:
On 9/18/25 19:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the
PAL processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of
choice for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that
powerful, and it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a
personal computer, but it was rugged and it was available.
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
No. Completely different instruction set, and a much more powerful
processor.
But for embedded applications you don't always need a proper computer.
If, for example, you want to generate waveforms that control the
electronics that control the power supply to a variable-speed AC motor,
you don't need a powerful processor. Waveform generation is just table look-up, and the operator interface can be as simple as four
pushbuttons: on, off, faster, slower. Oh, and I guess you need a speed display on seven-segment LEDs. The 8085 was ideal for that sort of job.
And it was cheap, and you didn't need to be a coding wizard to
understand its assembly language.
On 19/09/2025 00:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I'm willing to chalk it up to independent creation. Later the
different companies realized that they could talk to each other -
and didn't. And NIH and vendor lock-ins were born.
Bless. Monopolies have been favourite as long as man has been trading.
If only you know where the prettiest oyster shells are, you can charge
as many mammoth steaks for them as you like.
I get the AARP mags too. Too much seems to be selling
to the 8+ digit crowd while most AARP members are lucky to cover the
monthly bills with their pension checks and meager investment
interest.
Wasn't much into HDT or "Walden" ... a false viewpoint IMHO. The
"simple life" was actually parasitical.
On 19/09/2025 06:11, c186282 wrote:
The "simple life" was actually
-a parasitical.
Indeed it was..and is...
"I'm off grid with my solar panels made in Taiwan, shipped here on a
bunker oil burning container ship, feeding lithium batteries whose
lithium is mined by slave labour somewehre in S America, and whose
wastes are destroying rain forests"
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
On 19/09/25 14:20, c186282 wrote:
On 9/18/25 19:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the PAL
processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of choice
for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that powerful,
and it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a personal
computer, but it was rugged and it was available.
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
No. Completely different instruction set, and a much more powerful
processor.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will change.
Here's the last part of the first section copied:
-a-a-a-a-a defined by a program.:
-a-a-a-a-a rned heade'r asshown below:
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive taste for >>> my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a Stupid Stuff ...
I guess we can not do this in Linux :-?
On 2025-09-18 22:57, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 14:20, c186282 wrote:
On 9/18/25 19:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to the
PAL processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of
choice for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all that
powerful, and it certainly wouldn't have been a good choice for a
personal computer, but it was rugged and it was available.
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
No. Completely different instruction set, and a much more powerful
processor.
But for embedded applications you don't always need a proper computer.
If, for example, you want to generate waveforms that control the
electronics that control the power supply to a variable-speed AC motor,
you don't need a powerful processor. Waveform generation is just table
look-up, and the operator interface can be as simple as four
pushbuttons: on, off, faster, slower. Oh, and I guess you need a speed
display on seven-segment LEDs. The 8085 was ideal for that sort of job.
And it was cheap, and you didn't need to be a coding wizard to
understand its assembly language.
It was pretty cheap. I bought a development board and played with it some.
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:58:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/09/2025 06:11, c186282 wrote:
The "simple life" was actually
-a parasitical.
Indeed it was..and is...
"I'm off grid with my solar panels made in Taiwan, shipped here on a
bunker oil burning container ship, feeding lithium batteries whose
lithium is mined by slave labour somewehre in S America, and whose
wastes are destroying rain forests"
I've mentioned Derek Jensen who wrote 'Bright Green Lies'.
https://www.brightgreenlies.com/book
He digs into the true costs behind the green technologies the end users
would rather not think about. He is not a right wing MAGA; quite the opposite.
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:20:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
The 8085 was a spiffed up 8080. There were a couple of more lines and instructions but the '5' was the important part. It was a 5 V part instead
of the +5, -5, and +12 supply.
It's fair to say the 8086 was spiffed up. It sort of included the bank switching logic that a lot of Z-80 designs were doing externally. The real product was supposed to be the ill-fated 432.
The 432 project was started a year before the 8086 and wasn't doing well while Zilog and Motorola were gaining ground. There was a 80186 but IBM skipped directly to the 80286 so it never got much use. I'm not usre of
the exact timing but the 432 was dropped about the time the 80386 hit the streets.
I imagine there were some very interesting meetings at Intel.
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than paying
the rent back home.
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than paying
the rent back home.
On 19/09/2025 19:53, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:58:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/09/2025 06:11, c186282 wrote:
The "simple life" was actually
-a -a parasitical.
Indeed it was..and is...
"I'm off grid with my solar panels made in Taiwan, shipped here on a
bunker oil burning container ship, feeding lithium batteries whose
lithium is mined by slave labour somewehre in S America, and whose
wastes are destroying rain forests"
I've mentioned Derek Jensen who wrote 'Bright Green Lies'.
https://www.brightgreenlies.com/book
He digs into the true costs behind the green technologies the end users
would rather not think about. He is not a right wing MAGA; quite the
opposite.
Yes. There are indeed two sorts of greens - the dog whistle greens who
jump on any fashionable bandwagon and espouse latter day HippyShitrao and the ones who try and count the costs of things like wind turbines, solar panels and so on and tend to advocate nuclear power instead.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
I absolutely remember an American lady being interviewed on the UK radio
who lived on I think the QE2 liner.
She said 'its half the price of a care home, its full on interesting
people, I get to travel the world,-a I have a personal steward and
bedmaker and if I get ill the doctors are free'
She had to stay in a London hotel while they were refitting the liner I think.
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:57:58 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 14:20, c186282 wrote:
On 9/18/25 19:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 19/09/25 06:27, rbowman wrote:
Besides IBM had used the 8085 for the System 23 successor to
the PAL processor in the 5120 so there was a familiarity with
Intel.
Most people don't know this, but the 8085 was the processor of
choice for a great many embedded applications. It wasn't all
that powerful, and it certainly wouldn't have been a good
choice for a personal computer, but it was rugged and it was
available.
A "spiffed-up" version might have been OK.
Was the 8088/86 the spiffed-up version ?
No. Completely different instruction set, and a much more powerful
processor.
I would disagree. The 8086 added instructions particularly the
base+offset addressing but iirc 8080/8085 assembly code could work
with little or no modification.
The 8048 and 8051 were completely different.
But, ships, there IS still the norovirus thing - seems
just endemic - plus food poisoning and fires and .....
LOOKS like the UK, with USA help, is ready
-a to go with the mini-reactors. The "green"
-a crap is NOT cost-effective or ENOUGH.
On 2025-09-19 03:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will change.
Here's the last part of the first section copied:
aaaaa defined by a program.:
aaaaa rned heade'r asshown below:
Makes me wonder what an ass hown is.
On 9/19/25 20:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
I absolutely remember an American lady being interviewed on the UK
radio who lived on I think the QE2 liner.
She said 'its half the price of a care home, its full on interesting
people, I get to travel the world,-a I have a personal steward and
bedmaker and if I get ill the doctors are free'
She had to stay in a London hotel while they were refitting the liner
I think.
-a Cost of living in a big blue city ... she MAY be right.
-a However she clearly can't have much "stuff" ... and
-a likely will have problems with any Amazon deliveries.
-a But, ships, there IS still the norovirus thing - seems
-a just endemic - plus food poisoning and fires and .....
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 08.05 skrev c186282:
-a As for floppies ... had a C64 with dual floppies.
-a They worked perfectly. Not "fast", but well.
I once borrowed an extra floppy drive because I thought that a copy
session would run faster. I was very disappointed to discover that the >diskette was read completely first and only then were data sent to the
other drive. It only saved a few seconds to have two drives.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote or quoted:
I guess we can not do this in Linux :-?
You can find a discussion on the Web via a search for
"If you want to OCR your PDF,"
. I also find these SERP (search-engine result page) snippets:
|Sep 11, 2024 rCo This post will walk you through how to OCR PDF
|files on Linux using the open source tool OCRmyPDF(opens in a
|new tab), which is powered by Tesseract.
SERP snippet
|Aug 4, 2016 rCo An easy tool available in Ubuntu is 'ocrfeeder'
|it allows the generation of PDFs with OCR text overlaid on
|the original documents. It makes use ...
SERP snippet
|The Adobe Acrobat online OCR tool scans your document to
|apply free text recognition, creating easily searchable PDFs.
|You can also copy and highlight the ...
SERP snippet
|Jan 18, 2024 rCo This article provides an overview of 8 optical
|character recognition (OCR) tools available on Linux platforms,
|along with their key features.
SERP snippet
|Scantools for Linux - convert to PDF with OCR
SERP snippet
. . . and these were just the first ten results . . .
On 19/09/2025 19:53, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:58:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/09/2025 06:11, c186282 wrote:
The "simple life" was actually
-a -a parasitical.
Indeed it was..and is...
"I'm off grid with my solar panels made in Taiwan, shipped here on a
bunker oil burning container ship, feeding lithium batteries whose
lithium is mined by slave labour somewehre in S America, and whose
wastes are destroying rain forests"
I've mentioned Derek Jensen who wrote 'Bright Green Lies'.
https://www.brightgreenlies.com/book
He digs into the true costs behind the green technologies the end users
would rather not think about. He is not a right wing MAGA; quite the
opposite.
Yes. There are indeed two sorts of greens - the dog whistle greens who
jump on any fashionable bandwagon and espouse latter day HippyShitrao and the ones who try and count the costs of things like wind turbines, solar panels and so on and tend to advocate nuclear power instead.
On 20/09/25 14:22, c186282 wrote:
-a-a But, ships, there IS still the norovirus thing - seems
-a-a just endemic - plus food poisoning and fires and .....
A cruise ship is just a floating Petri dish.
What costs? Around here solar and wind are being installed by companies
for profit, while nuclears are being decommissioned because they don't
make a profit.
Specially when nucs are told that they have to cover the
complete cost, even that of cleaning up after the site reaches end of
life, and the storage of used nuclear materials for centuries.
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time did >>>> not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive taste >>>> for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a mattress >>> on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a
glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I fire up >>> the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than paying
the rent back home.
On 2025-09-20 06:46, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 20/09/25 14:22, c186282 wrote:
-a-a But, ships, there IS still the norovirus thing - seems
-a-a just endemic - plus food poisoning and fires and .....
A cruise ship is just a floating Petri dish.
Same as living in an residence for old people. Or in a students residence.
But the turnover on board a cruise ship is far far greater.-a Every fewA cruise ship is just a floating Petri dish.
Same as living in an residence for old people. Or in a students
residence.
days meet a whole host of interesting new diseases for which you have no immunity!
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time >>>>> did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive
taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement >>>> communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a
glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears >>>> when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I
fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part time >>>>> did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive
taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement >>>> communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a
glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears >>>> when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I
fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
Le 15/09/2025 |a 21:16, c186282 a |-crit :
On 9/15/25 03:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I haven't seen an 8" disc.
Long, long ago, in a land far away (from Denmark), our software people
used to use them - but then, they also used punched paper tape. (I
haven't myself, only punched cards.)
In Denmark in private circles we used
"floppy" for the 5-+" discs, and we did the same with 3-+" discs but
gradually turned to "diskette". Maybe we said "minifloppy" if there
could be doubt. I've never heard "micro-" used this way.
-a-a Saw a news blurb a few weeks ago - the Swedish Navy is
-a-a finally ending its use of 8-inch floppies for important
-a-a mil systems/equipment. Wow !
-a-a Why are they still using them ? "Time-tested", "known
-a-a reliability".
Military and naval environments are harsh - wide temperature range, vibration, shock from gunfire, condensation, salt fog..., not to mention electromagnetic compatibility - and restrict what can be used. Space is
even more demanding.
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:34:05 -0600
lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-19 03:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:I'm fart oo nice to say.
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will change.
Here's the last part of the first section copied:
-a-a-a-a-a defined by a program.:
-a-a-a-a-a rned heade'r asshown below:
Makes me wonder what an ass hown is.
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area
or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in
the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
On 9/20/25 22:45, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area
or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in
the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an
area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
It's all just out of hand - and not only USA.
While "free market" is generally good, it CAN get
out of hand - seriously damaging.
On 2025-09-21, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 9/20/25 22:45, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area >>> or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in >>> the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an >>> area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
It's all just out of hand - and not only USA.
Canada as well. Vancouver and Toronto can match the rest of the world. That's a pretty perverted thing to take pride in, but when you see the breathless excitement with which people say that we have penthouses
worth $20 million or more, it gets a little embarrassing.
You're probably looking at $2000 for a studio if you're lucky,
$3000 for more than one bedroom.
While "free market" is generally good, it CAN get
out of hand - seriously damaging.
IMHO the big problem with housing is that it's looked on
first and foremost as an investment. The fact that you
happen to be able to live in it is incidental. When I
become king, I'll ban real estate investment trusts (REITs).
They have a vested interest in making housing unaffordable.
Then there are the endless streams of renovictions and
demovictions (does any other area use those portmanteaus?).
Kick out the poor saps on a fixed income, fix up the units
(or demolish and rebuild them), and double the rent.
It's nice work if you can stomach it, and the city
councils are for sale to the highest bidder.
Oh dear, I'm being the doom pixie again, aren't I?
On 9/20/25 12:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part
time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive
taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement >>>>> communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a
glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears >>>>> when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I
fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
-a-a-a-aNearly anyone who can afford to live in a really modern apartment in San Francisco.-a Mine was built around 1915 and probably repaired not renovated
in the 1950s which is why my rent is about $20+ per day while a modern
place
of the same size but with updated amenities would cost me over $100/day.
-a-a-a-aWish I could afford such a place. Sometime, rarely, I dream about such
a place.-a And I am single living in a studio for a couple or a small
faily the
rent would be at least twice that.
-a-a-a-aAnyone who can afford the prices in San Francisco unless they are spendthrifts can afford to travel by ocean liner.-a Many do.
-a-a-a-abliss - who could have moved into a 1 bedroom place at about $160/month
in the mid-1970s when I was too poor to consider that.-a Then the owners would really hate me.
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area
or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in
the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
On 9/20/25 22:45, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area
or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in
the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an
area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
-a It's all just out of hand - and not only USA.
-a While "free market" is generally good, it CAN get
-a out of hand - seriously damaging.
On 2025-09-21, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 9/20/25 22:45, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2025 20:44:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
The ones that don't want to be homeless? It's not as bad as the Bay area >>> or NYC but this area is blessed with low wages and high rents. I'm not in >>> the market but I think $1000/mo might get you a studio. I do know that an >>> area that's trying to be upscale starts at $2000.
It's all just out of hand - and not only USA.
Canada as well. Vancouver and Toronto can match the rest of the world. That's a pretty perverted thing to take pride in, but when you see the breathless excitement with which people say that we have penthouses
worth $20 million or more, it gets a little embarrassing.
You're probably looking at $2000 for a studio if you're lucky,
$3000 for more than one bedroom.
While "free market" is generally good, it CAN get
out of hand - seriously damaging.
IMHO the big problem with housing is that it's looked on
first and foremost as an investment. The fact that you
happen to be able to live in it is incidental. When I
become king, I'll ban real estate investment trusts (REITs).
They have a vested interest in making housing unaffordable.
Then there are the endless streams of renovictions and
demovictions (does any other area use those portmanteaus?).
Kick out the poor saps on a fixed income, fix up the units
(or demolish and rebuild them), and double the rent.
It's nice work if you can stomach it, and the city
councils are for sale to the highest bidder.
Oh dear, I'm being the doom pixie again, aren't I?
IMHO the big problem with housing is that it's looked on first and
foremost as an investment. The fact that you happen to be able to
live in it is incidental. When I become king, I'll ban real estate investment trusts (REITs).
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There are enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless person
in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that lies
empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for
rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social housing.
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage.
There are
enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every
homeless person
in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house
that lies
empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made
available for
rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after
social housing.
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one
person or family can own/occupy.
The anti-immigration blame immigration for rising housing prices. They
say that an imbalance between the number of people and the number of
houses causes inflation. That sounds correct, superficially, but they
can't explain why it's a problem only with people with the wrong colour
skin. [...]
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid employment
so that they can buy their own homes.
I think immigration is partly to blame for the housing crisis,
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 10.44 skrev Richard Heathfield:
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one
person or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal
freedom. Why shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid
employment so that they can buy their own homes.
I shouldn't have started this discussion.
You didn't. Maybe you *should* have. Then you'd be King Bertel.
Mind you, these days it can be tricky finding a palace.
On 2025-09-19 11:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 18.09.2025 kl. 23.21 skrev Carlos E.R.:(radial paths) in sectors (arc sections) defined by a program.:
https://hardwarecomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/datasheet/
Western%20Digital%20FD1771%20-%20Specifications.pdf
There is something weird with this PDF. Text looks fuzzy, as if the
page was scanned or photocopied. But the text is selectable and
searchable.
It's even weirder. If you select some of the text, it will change.
Here's the last part of the first section copied:
-a-a-a-a-a-a defined by a program.:
-a-a-a-a-a-a rned heade'r asshown below:
rned heade'r asshown below:
Right, I see it. Should be:
(radial paths) in sectors (arc sections) defined by a program-
med header as shown below:
So it is an OCR with the text placed in the exact location of the
graphics. I knew about PDFs with OCR but never saw one. I thought it was different "files" inside the pdf.
Very nice, even if not perfect.
I guess we can not do this in Linux :-?
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 11.32 skrev Richard Heathfield:
You didn't. Maybe you *should* have. Then you'd be King Bertel.
In my wet dreams.
Mind you, these days it can be tricky finding a palace.
Finding one is not hard, but finding one that is free and/or available
is difficult.
I think I've found one, but I'm not sure that I would like to live
there. I've heard that there are problems with the construction (picture
5). And then I haven't mentioned the problematic country it lies in.
https://www.rferl.org/a/photos-of-palace-allegedly-belonging-to-russian-president-vladimir-putin/31053780.html
On 21/09/2025 10:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 10:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
Uhm, it pretty much isn't? Which dictionary have you been using?
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
On 21/09/2025 09:17, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There are
enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless person
in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that lies
empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for
rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social
housing.
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid employment
so that they can buy their own homes.
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 10.44 skrev Richard Heathfield:
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid
employment so that they can buy their own homes.
I shouldn't have started this discussion.
On 21/09/2025 10:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one
person or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid
employment so that they can buy their own homes.
I shouldn't have started this discussion.
-a-a-a-aSomeone was bound to start-a a discussion and you out of thousands
-awere chosen. And suddenly you realize that you might have refused the
-ahonor.
-aBut No Kings Please.Would you prefer commissars?
-a-aBut No Kings Please.
Would you prefer commissars?
Shortly after I finished my house my (now ex) wife invited the people
she worked with up to see it.
We sat in the living room. A young Chinese guys said 'this room is
bigger then my whole London flat'
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Shortly after I finished my house my (now ex) wife invited the people
she worked with up to see it.
We sat in the living room. A young Chinese guys said 'this room is
bigger then my whole London flat'
The trend here is McMansions. I would need a GPS to find my way around
one.
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in the US. Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That
applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
Well in this case the free market is working fine. It is ensuring that
all the smart people move to Colorado or New Mexico - or indeed Utah.
We Hibous have benefitted, since our flat has increased enormously in
value since we bought it. All the same, I don't think the situation is healthy, and I suppose Something Ought to Be Done.
(Building more houses, perhaps, but please not more of our bland,
depressing estates.)
On 21/09/2025 10:27, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
I shouldn't have started this discussion.
You didn't. Maybe you *should* have. Then you'd be King Bertel.
Mind you, these days it can be tricky finding a palace.
When the government starts stealing, it is no longer a
government. It's just a loosely defined group of thieves -
semi-organised crime - so the word we're after is "theft".
<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/theft>
Noun
theft (countable and uncountable, plural thefts)
The act of stealing property.
Or a more authoritative definition:
A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates
property belonging to another with the intention of permanently
depriving the other of it; and rCLthiefrCY and rCLstealrCY shall be construed accordingly. --- Theft Act 1968
Den 20.09.2025 kl. 21.48 skrev Sam Plusnet:
But the turnover on board a cruise ship is far far greater.-a Every fewA cruise ship is just a floating Petri dish.
Same as living in an residence for old people. Or in a students
residence.
days meet a whole host of interesting new diseases for which you have
no immunity!
It's not very nice to call the passengers that.
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part
time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive
taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end retirement >>>>> communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a
glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's ears >>>>> when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I
fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:50:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well in this case the free market is working fine. It is ensuring that
all the smart people move to Colorado or New Mexico - or indeed Utah.
Like the Muslims who would like to establish sharia in Minnesota the Californicators who move to Denver or Salt Lake tend to bring the
ideologies they are supposedly fleeing with them. The same happened in New Hampshire with the Massachusetts refugees. NH has no personal income tax
or sales tax -- and limited services. The MA people suppose there is some miraculous way to get full services without taxes.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in the US. Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>>>> sorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part
time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little
anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a >>>>>> glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's >>>>>> ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I
fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
On 2025-09-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in the US. >> Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That
applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
In France, insanity is a culture. In southern California, it's a quest.
On 9/21/25 13:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be
mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts
in the US. Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from
the ocean. That applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City
to Bellingham.
In France, insanity is a culture. In southern California, it's a
quest.
Make all the fun you want of Californians but the state is the 4th
largest economy in the world. Housing has been neglected since
Reagan ran the nation and provided tax cuts for those who do not need
them, at the same time he cut child care and stalled benefits to
Seniors to make his budget balance. Oh but he was a good narrator on
Death Valley Days.
Actually Californians, North and South, are questing for sanity in a
mad world. The coasts on both East and West are very different from
the states between for very good reasons. Inland California in the
Central Valley and less populated counties is a different less well
informed population in genera being devoted to making a living in the
desert and growing expensive crops.
They generally are Republicans but they don't keep up on what is
happening on the East Coast where the people knew perfectly well
that DJT was a failed businessman and generally dishonest with the
people and companies that worked for him. Incomptent to be dog
catcher much less President. He was not as good an actor as Ronald
Regan and much worse that Arnold Swartenznegger. At least AS has
keep up his body.
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 12.16 skrev Richard Heathfield:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
Discussing the meaning of "anarchy" and "confiscating":
According to Danish law a confiscation happens if the state takes
somebody's property without compensation. It is possible in criminal cases.
It's another thing if it forces someone to sell their property to the
state. That happens if the common good conflicts with the right to own >property (roads, railways and the like).
Both actions are defined in our laws, so you can't call it anarchy if it >happens according to the law. You can say that you'd like those laws to >disappear, but that is something else.
Make all the fun you want of Californians but the state is the 4th
largest
economy in the world.
Housing has been neglected since Reagan ran thea
nation and provided tax cuts for those who do not need them, at the
same time
he cut child care and stalled benefits to Seniors to make his budget balance.
Oh but he was a good narrator on Death Valley Days.
Actually Californians, North and South, are questing for sanity in
mad
world.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:50:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well in this case the free market is working fine. It is ensuring that
all the smart people move to Colorado or New Mexico - or indeed Utah.
Like the Muslims who would like to establish sharia in Minnesota
On 2025-09-21, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
We Hibous have benefitted, since our flat has increased enormously
in value since we bought it. All the same, I don't think the
situation is healthy, and I suppose Something Ought to Be Done.
(Building more houses, perhaps, but please not more of our bland,
depressing estates.)
Governments here in Canada (federal, provincial, and municipal) think
that building more housing is the silver bullet. They'll propose a
plan that takes care of 1% of the demand, then pat themselves on the
back and go off to do more good deeds, never looking back to see
whether their wonderful plans will come crashing to the ground.
And even if you could build enough housing, you still have to provide infrastructure. But infrastructure doesn't get votes; it's not sexy.
The new housing is going to need more water (from existing depleted watersheds), more sewage treatment, and more electrical power.
Oh, and then we have to feed all these people. Farmers are having a
hard time right now, and there's constant pressure to turn those
fields into - you guessed it - more housing.
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
aaaaOf course I am low rent.a I worked at low-paying jobs with all >>>>>>> sorts
aaaaand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>> rather thrifty.a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a >>>>>>> glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's >>>>>>> ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
aa Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
aa want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
aa with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
aa It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
aa away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
aa Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirusa :-)
aa Besides, people might want to talk at you about
aa Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So the >workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they have
good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to live >while they study.
On 22/09/25 05:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
We Hibous have benefitted, since our flat has increased enormously in
value since we bought it. All the same, I don't think the situation is
healthy, and I suppose Something Ought to Be Done.
(Building more houses, perhaps, but please not more of our bland,
depressing estates.)
Governments here in Canada (federal, provincial, and municipal) think
that building more housing is the silver bullet. They'll propose a
plan that takes care of 1% of the demand, then pat themselves on the
back and go off to do more good deeds, never looking back to see
whether their wonderful plans will come crashing to the ground.
And even if you could build enough housing, you still have to provide
infrastructure. But infrastructure doesn't get votes; it's not sexy.
The new housing is going to need more water (from existing depleted
watersheds), more sewage treatment, and more electrical power.
Water is also a major issue in my part of the world. The politicians blissfully talk about doubling the population in the forseeable future,
but they haven't even started the negotiations to buy water from some
other country. We already have some desalination plants, but they are expensive, and aggravate the global warming problem.
Sydney is fast approaching the time when the residents will have to make
a choice between washing and drinking.
On 21/09/2025 10:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
On 9/21/25 13:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:When Regan ran for president (or soon after he won) the humorist and columnist, Art Buchwald, published a piece that appeared in many US
On 2025-09-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally
ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in
the US.
Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That
applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
In France, insanity is a culture.-a In southern California, it's a quest.
-a-a-a-aMake all the fun you want of Californians but the state is the 4th largest
-aeconomy in the world. Housing has been neglected since Reagan ran the
-anation and provided tax cuts for those who do not need them, at the
same time
-ahe cut child care and stalled benefits to Seniors to make his budget balance.
-aOh but he was a good narrator on Death Valley Days.
-a-a-a-aActually Californians, North and South, are questing for sanity in a mad
world.-a The coasts on both East and West are very different from the states between for very good reasons. Inland California in the Central Valley and less populated counties is a different less well informed population in general
being devoted to making a living in the desert and growing expensive crops.
-a-a-a-aThey generally are Republicans but they don't keep up on what is happening on the East Coast where the people knew perfectly well that
DJT was a failed businessman and generally dishonest with the people
and companies that worked for him. Incomptent to be dog catcher much
less President.-a He was not as good an actor as Ronald Regan and much
worse that Arnold Swartenznegger.-a At least AS has keep up his body.
According to Danish law a confiscation happens if the state takes
somebody's property without compensation. It is possible in criminal cases. >>
It's another thing if it forces someone to sell their property to the
state. That happens if the common good conflicts with the right to own
property (roads, railways and the like).
Both actions are defined in our laws, so you can't call it anarchy if it
happens according to the law. You can say that you'd like those laws to
disappear, but that is something else.
In the US, a government (federal, state, county, or city) can take
ownership of private property and convert it to for a road, utility, railroad, or some other public use. However, the private owner must
be given "just compensation". This right is part of the Constitution
in the Fifth Amendment. Known as "Eminate Domain", the Amendment was
based on Common Law.
What the private owner thinks is "just compensation", and what the
government determines as "just compensation", can be quite different.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Shortly after I finished my house my (now ex) wife invited the people
she worked with up to see it.
We sat in the living room. A young Chinese guys said 'this room is
bigger then my whole London flat'
The trend here is McMansions. I would need a GPS to find my way around
one.
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in the US. Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That
applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
On 9/21/25 01:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 09:17, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There are >>>> enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless person >>>> in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that lies >>>> empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for
rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social
housing.
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid
employment so that they can buy their own homes.
-a-a-a-aOr for those houseless who are at low wages demand those wages be high enough
that decent housing can be paid for.
-a-a-a-aBut No Kings Please.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 14:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote in <10appff$1vm6v$1@dont-email.me>:
Make all the fun you want of Californians but the state is the 4th
largest
economy in the world.
...and I looked it up: the UK is the 6th largest.
I remember a talk given by Newt Gingrich where he concluded that the U.S. would do better with the Silicon Valley model, rather than the
Detroit model, of economic development. Make of that what you will.
I live in the North SF Bay, in Sonoma County. I've lived in SF;
in Alameda; and in Neah Bay, Washington. (And a few months at
boot camp in Cape May, NJ; as well as RM "A" school at Petaluma,
CA.) Sonoma County suits me best. YMMV.
Just went to my 40th HS reunion, and the topic of where we'd all
ended up at one time or another came up: some folks had moved
away, and came back. Others were happy to visit from wherever they
flew in from. A friend of mine lives in Vancouver, and is trying
to get a visa for his SO so they can move to the South Bay. My wife
grew up in Santa Clara, but said she liked it better up here.
Standard of living is very high, so housing costs more: Sonoma County,
not as much as Sillycone Valley, but it's up there. But the people
and the weather are fabulous. No tornadoes to worry about, no hurricanes. Earthquakes, sure, but we've been building for that now. We're due for
a Big One someday, and that's a risk, so keep a go-bag.
Then there's the fires. We had to evacuate for the Tubbs fire, which
came all the way from Calistoga and took out part of Santa Rosa. We
were blessed to have a modest class-C RV to load our animals
into -- it was our "lifeboat". Went across town to the office
and plugged in there.
Kept pinging our home router to make sure the house was still there,
and had not burned. A lot happened that night, and we almost
lost that whole hillside. We were lucky. Others weren't so lucky,
and some friends lost their homes. We gave them support and donations
to rebuild.
A lot of our employees were evacuees, and we arranged for them to
stay at the office. My wife and I helped keep people fed, with
feeds such as pizza parties.
Housing has been neglected since Reagan ran thea
nation and provided tax cuts for those who do not need them, at the
same time
he cut child care and stalled benefits to Seniors to make his budget
balance.
Oh but he was a good narrator on Death Valley Days.
Actually Californians, North and South, are questing for sanity in
mad
world.
I think anywhere you go in the U.S., you'll find jerks -- and you'll find people who have set down roots, are friendly, and help their neighbors.
For me, it's the right way to live. YMMV.
ObLinux:
Friday night, I updated my Linux Mint, which did something to my display drivers. Had to reboot to recovery mode to fix graphics. Details
in alt.os.linux.mint.
ObEnglish:
Use of "they" as a genderless singular:
First attested: ~1370s (Chaucer).
Common literary usage: 14thrCo19th centuries.
Suppressed by grammar rules: 18thrCo20th centuries.
Re-accepted and standardized: Late 20thrCo21st centuries.
Note that the suppression was due to Latin-educated teachers...the
same folks who say one can't split an infinitive. (In Latin, you can't,
but that's not how folks use English.)
On 22/09/2025 12:07 p.m., vallor wrote:[...]
ObEnglish:
Use of "they" as a genderless singular:
First attested: ~1370s (Chaucer).
Common literary usage: 14thrCo19th centuries.
Suppressed by grammar rules: 18thrCo20th centuries.
Re-accepted and standardized: Late 20thrCo21st centuries.
Note that the suppression was due to Latin-educated teachers...the
same folks who say one can't split an infinitive. (In Latin, you can't,
but that's not how folks use English.)
Works fine for indefinites, but used for a definite individual it can
create problems. We recently had a "non-binary" Member of Parliament
who preferred to be referred to as "they". This individual resigned
(for reasons having nothing to do with pronouns). Reading a news
account of this resignation and its possible effect on the party to
which this individual belonged, I was genuinely confused as to whether
a given instance of "they" referred to the individual or the party.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 22:33:23 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a >>>>>>>> glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's >>>>>>>> ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So the
workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they have
good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to live
while they study.
Key West is at the southermost tip of Florida. While it is a general
tourist destination, it is also known as a very gay-friendly city.
Housing for service workers in the bar and restaurant industries is
both scarce and extremely expensive. The city already takes up all of
the land at Florida's tip, so there's no place to add housing. The
Keys are a narrow pininsula with water on both sides.
Consequently, many service workers have to find accomodation in cities further north than Key West, and there is basically one north/south
road - that can be highly congested - in the entire Keys. People who commute to Key West to work are faced with long commute times and
commuting costs.
On 21/09/2025 12:43, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 10:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Richard Heathfield wrote:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why >>>>> shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
Uhm, it pretty much isn't? Which dictionary have you been using?
When the government starts stealing, it is no longer a government. It's
just a loosely defined group of thieves - semi-organised crime - so the
word we're after is "theft".
<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/theft>
On 9/21/25 01:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 09:17, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There are >>> enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless person >>> in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that lies >>> empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for
rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social
housing.
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid employment
so that they can buy their own homes.
Or for those houseless who are at low wages demand those wages be high enough
that decent housing can be paid for.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:19:27 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 12.16 skrev Richard Heathfield:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why >>>>> shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
Discussing the meaning of "anarchy" and "confiscating":
According to Danish law a confiscation happens if the state takes
somebody's property without compensation. It is possible in criminal cases. >>
It's another thing if it forces someone to sell their property to the
state. That happens if the common good conflicts with the right to own
property (roads, railways and the like).
Both actions are defined in our laws, so you can't call it anarchy if it
happens according to the law. You can say that you'd like those laws to
disappear, but that is something else.
In the US, a government (federal, state, county, or city) can take
ownership of private property and convert it to for a road, utility, railroad, or some other public use. However, the private owner must
be given "just compensation". This right is part of the Constitution
in the Fifth Amendment. Known as "Eminate Domain", the Amendment was
based on Common Law.
What the private owner thinks is "just compensation", and what the
government determines as "just compensation", can be quite different.
In article <10ap6o2$1qit3$1@dont-email.me>, bliss-
sf4ever@dslextreme.com says...
On 9/21/25 01:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 09:17, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There are >>>>> enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless person >>>>> in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that lies >>>>> empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for >>>>> rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social
housing.
Too late, your Majesty. That option is already in
place for every local council in UK.
<https://www.no-use-empty.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what- powers-do-local-authorities-have/>
quote
"The Housing Act 2004 allows us to take out an empty
dwelling management order (EDMO) to make sure that your
empty property is used for housing.
We can make EDMOs on properties that have been empty for
at least six months. There are two types of EDMO ? interim
and final. An interim EDMO lasts 12 months but a final
EDMO can last up to seven, 14 or 21 years.
An EDMO allows us to:?step into your shoes? if you own an
unoccupied building and make sure that empty properties
are occupied and managed properly.
We will bring the property back into use but you will
still own it. We can take any costs to improve the
property from the rents we receive when we let the
property."
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one person
or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid employment
so that they can buy their own homes.
Or for those houseless who are at low wages demand those wages be high >> enough
that decent housing can be paid for.
The original point of purpose-built Council housing
originally was, a state subsidised good quality design
and build let at rent affordable by low-paid workers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house
Building Council houses to let was a long-term social
investment. When the tenant left, or died, that social
housing stock was available to be let to another low-paid
worker at an affordable rent.
Margaret Thatcher wrecked the UK social-rental housing
market in 1979 by promoting "Home ownership" via the sale
of Council-owned rental homes at a give-away price far
below market value.
Janet UK--
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:19:27 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 12.16 skrev Richard Heathfield:
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why >>>>> shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
Because that'd be anarchy.
And confiscating people's property isn't?
Discussing the meaning of "anarchy" and "confiscating":
According to Danish law a confiscation happens if the state takes
somebody's property without compensation. It is possible in criminal cases. >>
It's another thing if it forces someone to sell their property to the
state. That happens if the common good conflicts with the right to own
property (roads, railways and the like).
Both actions are defined in our laws, so you can't call it anarchy if it
happens according to the law. You can say that you'd like those laws to
disappear, but that is something else.
In the US, a government (federal, state, county, or city) can take
ownership of private property and convert it to for a road, utility, railroad, or some other public use. However, the private owner must
be given "just compensation". This right is part of the Constitution
in the Fifth Amendment. Known as "Eminate Domain", the Amendment was
based on Common Law.
What the private owner thinks is "just compensation", and what the
government determines as "just compensation", can be quite different.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:07:54 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote in <10aq40u$226u4$1@dont-email.me>:
On 22/09/25 05:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-21, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
And even if you could build enough housing, you still have to provide
infrastructure. But infrastructure doesn't get votes; it's not sexy.
The new housing is going to need more water (from existing depleted
watersheds), more sewage treatment, and more electrical power.
Water is also a major issue in my part of the world. The politicians
blissfully talk about doubling the population in the forseeable future,
but they haven't even started the negotiations to buy water from some
other country. We already have some desalination plants, but they are
expensive, and aggravate the global warming problem.
Sydney is fast approaching the time when the residents will have to make
a choice between washing and drinking.
Will your citizens tolerate that?
The economic costs of water (supply/demand) will mean a new source
of water will be used: the sea.
What the private owner thinks is "just compensation", and what the
government determines as "just compensation", can be quite different.
When filling the tax forms, the owner states the value of the property. Later, the government can take that property for that value, and the previous owner should not complain.
The trick is that owners usually state a much lower value than the
market value, so that they pay an smaller property tax.
The economic costs of water (supply/demand) will mean a new source
of water will be used: the sea.
It is expensive water. It is fine for cities, I think most of the water
I drink comes from such a plant. But it is too expensive for profitable agriculture, unless the pricing structure changes significantly, or it becomes subsidized somehow. Also the water has to be ducted to higher ground, against gravity.
The original point of purpose-built Council housing originally was,
a state subsidised good quality design and build let at rent
affordable by low-paid workers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house
Building Council houses to let was a long-term social investment.
When the tenant left, or died, that social housing stock was
available to be let to another low-paid worker at an affordable
rent.
Margaret Thatcher wrecked the UK social-rental housing market in
1979 by promoting "Home ownership" via the sale of Council-owned
rental homes at a give-away price far below market value.
Den 22.09.2025 kl. 12.35 skrev Carlos E.R.:
What the private owner thinks is "just compensation", and what the
government determines as "just compensation", can be quite different.
When filling the tax forms, the owner states the value of the
property. Later, the government can take that property for that value,
and the previous owner should not complain.
The trick is that owners usually state a much lower value than the
market value, so that they pay an smaller property tax.
A case of lie in the bed you have made.
In Denmark we don't state the value of our property. The authorities
tell us what it is. The market price is often different. In the case of
my house the difference is substantial because we have had a government
that wantet to freeze the taxes on houses, so the tax value has been
fixed for years.
I don't know how the price is set in a case of expropriation.
Den 22.09.2025 kl. 13.14 skrev Carlos E.R.:
The economic costs of water (supply/demand) will mean a new source
of water will be used: the sea.
It is expensive water. It is fine for cities, I think most of the
water I drink comes from such a plant. But it is too expensive for
profitable agriculture, unless the pricing structure changes
significantly, or it becomes subsidized somehow. Also the water has to
be ducted to higher ground, against gravity.
At some point the water will be so expensive that it's profitable to use seawater.
Lunch time at work often featured exchanging opinions about politics and politicians. After he had been in office for about 2 years, I thought I noticed some subtle signs of dementia and said so. I was, of course,
roundly criticized by his ardent supports. Sure enough, we later learned while he was still in office that his dementia was quite advanced. That
was too bad for him and too bad for the country in general.
On 2025-09-21 12:05, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:45:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Shortly after I finished my house my (now ex) wife invited the people
she worked with up to see it.
We sat in the living room. A young Chinese guys said 'this room is
bigger then my whole London flat'
The trend here is McMansions. I would need a GPS to find my way around
one.
Today I consider anyone still living in California must be mentally ill.
California has long been considered the land of fruits and nuts in the
US.
Sanity is inversely proportional to the distance from the ocean. That
applies to the entire left coast from Nasty City to Bellingham.
It has, though unfairly I think.
These days sanity seems to be in inverse proportion to the blueness of a state.
The 8080 and 8085 were software compatible with each other. However,
if you had an assembly language program for these, and wanted to port
it to an 8086, you'd have to restart the job completely from scratch.
On 22/09/2025 06:09, Jeff Barnett wrote:The president Lampooned was Regan, right? Have any of the British groups
Lunch time at work often featured exchanging opinions about politics
and politicians. After he had been in office for about 2 years, I
thought I noticed some subtle signs of dementia and said so. I was, of
course, roundly criticized by his ardent supports. Sure enough, we
later learned while he was still in office that his dementia was quite
advanced. That was too bad for him and too bad for the country in
general.
The UK satirical puppet show 'Spitting images' did a sketch saying 'the presidents brain is missing', where his head opened and his brain ran
away. And he started to behave true to real life.
It was surprisingly prescient.
On 2025-09-21 09:48, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 9/21/25 01:44, Richard Heathfield wrote:
On 21/09/2025 09:17, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 21.09.2025 kl. 09.54 skrev Peter Moylan:
In fact studies have shown that there is no housing shortage. There >>>>> are
enough empty houses in the country to accommodate every homeless
person
in the country. Once I'm king I'll make a rule that any house that
lies
empty for more than 12 months must be immediately made available for >>>>> rental, at a rent to be set by the agency that looks after social
housing.
One might add a rule that limits the number of houses that one
person or family can own/occupy.
One might add any number of rules that restrict personal freedom. Why
shouldn't people own whatever they can afford to buy?
King Peter would do better helping homeless people into paid
employment so that they can buy their own homes.
-a-a-a-a-aOr for those houseless who are at low wages demand those wages be >> high enough
that decent housing can be paid for.
-a-a-a-a-aBut No Kings Please.
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries that
live in apartments.
[...] The Victorian Housing Commission [...]
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries that
live in apartments.
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for a >>>>>>> glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's >>>>>>> ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they have
good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to live while they study.
[...] [1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land? Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 21 Sep 2025 18:43:07 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:50:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well in this case the free market is working fine. It is ensuring that
all the smart people move to Colorado or New Mexico - or indeed Utah.
Like the Muslims who would like to establish sharia in Minnesota
I find that statement to be a bit misleading. It suggests that all
Muslims in Minnesota favor sharia law. In fact, a group of Muslims in favored forming a Muslim Community Patrol in Minneapolis following
George Floyd's death. This was referred to as a Sharia Patrol by
some.
A group does not represent the whole.
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the
cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far
from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:The modern version of the Flying Dutchman!
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end
retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the
cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than
paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far
from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 9/22/2025 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/2025 06:09, Jeff Barnett wrote:
Lunch time at work often featured exchanging opinions about
politics and politicians. After he had been in office for about
2 years, I thought I noticed some subtle signs of dementia and
said so. I was, of course, roundly criticized by his ardent
supports. Sure enough, we later learned while he was still in
office that his dementia was quite advanced. That was too bad for
him and too bad for the country in general.
The UK satirical puppet show 'Spitting images' did a sketch saying
'the presidents brain is missing', where his head opened and his
brain ran away. And he started to behave true to real life. It was
surprisingly prescient.
The president Lampooned was Regan, right? Have any of the British
groups took really insightful shots at our last two "leaders"?
There's so much material to work with.
We have a water transfer system that allowed agriculture to bloom in
the Cartagena area at industrial levels. We sell a lot of produce to
Germany an other EU countries. Quite profitable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagus-Segura_Water_Transfer
It was built during the Franco dictatorship. Now we have a democracy,
and the area of the donating river wants that water for themselves.
They are winning in court, it seems.
So the only alternative for farmers at some point in the future will
be desalinization, or nothing.
On 9/22/2025 1:48 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with >>>>>>>>>> allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised >>>>>>>>>> to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive >>>>>>>>> tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when >>>>>>>>> I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship
far from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca,
specially in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be
had. So the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not
poor, they have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing
a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry
land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.
The modern version of the Flying Dutchman!
On 2025-09-22, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise
ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to
forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
And you thought that daily "walk the plank" routine was just a show...
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise
ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I just had a thought... what if "prescription" becomes "subscription"?
In a brave new world of SaaS (spectacles as a service), maybe the lenses
will suddenly turn opaque, like those coin-operated binoculars at
tourist attractions.
Please don't leak this to any marketroids.
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to live
while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me. If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a >university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to >forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?--
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far
from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially
in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a >> university would be it.
The 'dream' is not a reference to lack of rationality, but an adjective >meaning, in effect, very desirable.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
On 2025-09-22, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries that
live in apartments.
Haven't you heard? The new term is "unhoused".
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 20:48:40 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a cruise
ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to
forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
B. Traven's 'Das Totenschiff' (The Death Ship) comes to mind. The crew consists of stateless people who can never leave. The Yorikke isn't
seaworthy but they somehow keep it afloat.
I never saw it but I think there was a movie based on it but completely overshadowed by 'The Treasure of the Sierra Madres'.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >>> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives. They could move the South Wales.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers
wrote:
Of course I am low rent. I worked at low-paying
jobs with all sorts and shades of skin color. Not
being able to work full time or part time did not
pay any better but I did the best I could and was
raised to be rather thrifty. A tight-wad and a
penny-pincher wth expensive taste for my economic
class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed
expensive tastes thankfully and have a minimalist life
style. That led to little anomalies like buying a
relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a
mattress on the floor. The computer was a business
expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of
high end retirement communities, scenic cruises, and
vacations to exotic places for a glimpse into another
world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the cat's
ears when she comes back from whatever exotic place
she visits when I fire up the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well away
from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus :-)
Besides, people might want to talk at you about Stupid
Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long
cruise than paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship
far from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca,
specially in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to
be had. So the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are
not poor, they have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable
to live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me. If there was ever a time for rational thinking,
choosing a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit
dry land? Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 23/09/25 02:19, Jeff Barnett wrote:
On 9/22/2025 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/2025 06:09, Jeff Barnett wrote:
Lunch time at work often featured exchanging opinions about
politics and politicians. After he had been in office for about
2 years, I thought I noticed some subtle signs of dementia and
said so. I was, of course, roundly criticized by his ardent
supports. Sure enough, we later learned while he was still in
office that his dementia was quite advanced. That was too bad for
him and too bad for the country in general.
The UK satirical puppet show 'Spitting images' did a sketch saying
'the presidents brain is missing', where his head opened and his
brain ran away. And he started to behave true to real life. It was
surprisingly prescient.
The president Lampooned was Regan, right? Have any of the British
groups took really insightful shots at our last two "leaders"?
There's so much material to work with.
Like an oboe, it's an ill wind that nobody blows any good. What are the world's cartoonists and comedians going to do when Trump retires? He's
been a rich source of material.
I remember widespread mourning among Australia's political cartoonists
when one of our past Prime Ministers left the picture, and that was
merely because of the shape of his face.
On 9/22/2025 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/2025 06:09, Jeff Barnett wrote:The president Lampooned was Regan, right? Have any of the British groups took really insightful shots at our last two "leaders"? There's so much material to work with.
Lunch time at work often featured exchanging opinions about politics
and politicians. After he had been in office for about 2 years, I
thought I noticed some subtle signs of dementia and said so. I was,
of course, roundly criticized by his ardent supports. Sure enough, we
later learned while he was still in office that his dementia was
quite advanced. That was too bad for him and too bad for the country
in general.
The UK satirical puppet show 'Spitting images' did a sketch saying
'the presidents brain is missing', where his head opened and his brain
ran away. And he started to behave true to real life.
It was surprisingly prescient.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 17:22:20 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-09-22, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries that
live in apartments.
Haven't you heard? The new term is "unhoused".
No doubt that applies to those in Gaza whose
homes/houses/flats/apartments are being blown up by the Israeli
government.
On 2025-09-22 21:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit
dry land? Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Well, it would be an "interesting" situation :-)
They would have to contact their embassy somewhere.
When I was a student at Durham, statistics showed that most students
who attended put it down as their third choice, after Oxford and
Cambridge. The exception was Archaeology students, because the
Archaeology Department at Durham had a good reputation and students
who wanted to study archaeology put Durham down as their first choice.
It was their "dream university
On 22/09/2025 01:07, Tony Cooper wrote:
On 21 Sep 2025 18:43:07 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2025 08:50:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well in this case the free market is working fine. It is ensuring that >>>> all the smart people move to Colorado or New Mexico - or indeed Utah.
Like the Muslims who would like to establish sharia in Minnesota
I find that statement to be a bit misleading.-a It suggests that all
Muslims in Minnesota favor sharia law.-a In fact, a group of Muslims in
favored forming a Muslim Community Patrol in Minneapolis following
George Floyd's death.-a This was referred to as a Sharia Patrol by
some.
A group does not represent the whole.
Tucker Carlson will assure you that London (or maybe it's England - they
are much the same thing apparently) are under Sharia law.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off
a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had
been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
On 22/09/25 22:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Increasing areas around the world are hitting that conflict. Once upon a time, the farmers could just pump water out of the river, and nobody suffered. With increasing population densiity, that no longer works.
On 23/09/2025 07:44, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 17:22:20 GMT, Charlie GibbsAS opposed to those in Israel whose houses have been being blown up by
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-09-22, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries that >>>> live in apartments.
Haven't you heard?-a The new term is "unhoused".
No doubt that applies to those in Gaza whose
homes/houses/flats/apartments are being blown up by the Israeli
government.
the Palestine government for decades...
On 2025-09-23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-22 21:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit
dry land? Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Well, it would be an "interesting" situation :-)
They would have to contact their embassy somewhere.
Won't the necessity of doing that depend on whether the ship will visit
a country where they have citizenship or right of abode?
On 2025-09-23 12:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2025 07:44, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 17:22:20 GMT, Charlie GibbsAS opposed to those in Israel whose houses have been being blown up by
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-09-22, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
I wish people would stop using 'houseless' when they mean homeless.
There are literally millions of houseless people in many countries
that
live in apartments.
Haven't you heard?-a The new term is "unhoused".
No doubt that applies to those in Gaza whose
homes/houses/flats/apartments are being blown up by the Israeli
government.
the Palestine government for decades...
A ridiculously low number of them, comparatively.
On 23/09/25 14:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off
a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had
been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth", and have
just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to Reykjavik. It was interesting to see that the central character used his contacts to
ensure that he had letters of introduction to the high authorities in
both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I guess there weren't passports in those days.
On 22/09/25 22:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
We have a water transfer system that allowed agriculture to bloom in
the Cartagena area at industrial levels. We sell a lot of produce to
Germany an other EU countries. Quite profitable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagus-Segura_Water_Transfer
It was built during the Franco dictatorship. Now we have a democracy,
-aand the area of the donating river wants that water for themselves.
They are winning in court, it seems.
So the only alternative for farmers at some point in the future will
be desalinization, or nothing.
Increasing areas around the world are hitting that conflict. Once upon a time, the farmers could just pump water out of the river, and nobody suffered. With increasing population densiity, that no longer works.
On 23/09/2025 07:33, Steve Hayes wrote:
When I was a student at Durham, statistics showed that most students
who attended put it down as their third choice, after Oxford and
Cambridge. The exception was Archaeology students, because the
Archaeology Department at Durham had a good reputation and students who
wanted to study archaeology put Durham down as their first choice.
It was their "dream university
I have to admit that I chose Cambridge mostly on the grounds of the
thought of three years drifting downstream on a punt. Or wandering in
the well kept gardens and reading SF books.
How I managed to pass anything remains a mystery.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
On 2025-09-22, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >>> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
A bunch of bureaucrats might have a fit. But back in the real world...
I was walking down the street wearing glasses when the prescription
ran out. -- Steven Wright
I just had a thought... what if "prescription" becomes "subscription"?
In a brave new world of SaaS (spectacles as a service), maybe the lenses
will suddenly turn opaque, like those coin-operated binoculars at tourist attractions.
Please don't leak this to any marketroids.
On 9/22/2025 1:48 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:The modern version of the Flying Dutchman!
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with >>>>>>>>>> allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised >>>>>>>>>> to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive >>>>>>>>> tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when >>>>>>>>> I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-)
-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship
far from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca,
specially in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be
had. So the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not
poor, they have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing
a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry
land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
On 23/09/25 14:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off
a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had
been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth",
and have
just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to Reykjavik. It was interesting to see that the central character used his contacts to
ensure that he had letters of introduction to the high authorities in
both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I guess there weren't passports in those days.
On 23/09/2025 00:58, Jeff Barnett wrote:
On 9/22/2025 1:48 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:The modern version of the Flying Dutchman!
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs >>>>>>>>>>> with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or >>>>>>>>>>> part time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised >>>>>>>>>>> to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth
expensive taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive >>>>>>>>>> tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to
little anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on >>>>>>>>>> a mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places >>>>>>>>>> for a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when >>>>>>>>>> I fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or
-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-) >>>>>>>>> -a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship
far from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca,
specially in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to
be had. So the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not
poor, they have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking,
choosing a university would be it.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?
Doomed to forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry
land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
There was a man who was stuck for years air-side at an airport, unable
to enter that country nor fly anywhere else.
I'm sure someone here would remember the details.
On 2025-09-23 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 23/09/25 14:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off
a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had
been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth",
Jules Verne?
and have
just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to Reykjavik. It was
interesting to see that the central character used his contacts to
ensure that he had letters of introduction to the high authorities in
both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I don't recall that. Well, I don't recall many details :-)
I guess there weren't passports in those days.
Nor plastic cards. Transferring money most have been cumbersome at least.
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure if >>> that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
On 2025-09-23 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth",
Jules Verne?
and have just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to
Reykjavik. It was interesting to see that the central character
used his contacts to ensure that he had letters of introduction to
the high authorities in both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I don't recall that. Well, I don't recall many details :-)
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway.
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or >>>>>>>>> -a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob
-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-) >>>>>>>>> -a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far
from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially >>>> in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a >>> university would be it.
The 'dream' is not a reference to lack of rationality, but an adjective
meaning, in effect, very desirable.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >>> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
On 9/23/25 13:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-23 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:-a-a-a-aLook up Letters of Credit and in the days of gold and silver coinage it was not so hard to move around as you might expect.-a Pre WW I
On 23/09/25 14:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off
a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had
been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth",
Jules Verne?
and have
just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to Reykjavik. It was
interesting to see that the central character used his contacts to
ensure that he had letters of introduction to the high authorities in
both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I don't recall that. Well, I don't recall many details :-)
I guess there weren't passports in those days.
Nor plastic cards. Transferring money most have been cumbersome at least.
it was a lot easier to move between countries if you had the money.
Money could also be stored as gem stones
which could be converted at many places. Gems were generally lighter to carry than
gold or silver coins.
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 11:21:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2025 07:33, Steve Hayes wrote:
When I was a student at Durham, statistics showed that most students
who attended put it down as their third choice, after Oxford and
Cambridge. The exception was Archaeology students, because the
Archaeology Department at Durham had a good reputation and students who
wanted to study archaeology put Durham down as their first choice.
It was their "dream university
I have to admit that I chose Cambridge mostly on the grounds of the
thought of three years drifting downstream on a punt. Or wandering in
the well kept gardens and reading SF books.
How I managed to pass anything remains a mystery.
MIT has a rowing team and watching the sculls on the Charles is very >picturesque. RPI didn't have the sport since you would have to be insane
to get that close to the waters of the Hudson River.*
* The river has been cleaned up considerably thanks in part to the efforts >of Pete Seeger. At least one commie accomplished something useful.
On 2025-09-23 23:10, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 9/23/25 13:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-23 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:-a-a-a-a-aLook up Letters of Credit and in the days of gold and silver
On 23/09/25 14:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off >>>>>> a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had >>>>>> been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
I'm currently re-reading "Journey to the Centre of the Earth",
Jules Verne?
and have
just passed the details of getting from Hamburg to Reykjavik. It was
interesting to see that the central character used his contacts to
ensure that he had letters of introduction to the high authorities in
both Copenhagen and Reykjavik.
I don't recall that. Well, I don't recall many details :-)
I guess there weren't passports in those days.
Nor plastic cards. Transferring money most have been cumbersome at
least.
coinage it was not so hard to move around as you might expect.-a Pre WW
I it was a lot easier to move between countries if you had the money.
Money could also be stored as gem stones
which could be converted at many places. Gems were generally lighter
to carry than
gold or silver coins.
All of that easy to rob. Dunno about Letters of Credit.
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/ https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure
if that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
On 2025-09-23 00:35, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be >>>>>>>>>>>> rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes >>>>>>>>>>> thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or >>>>>>>>>> -a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob >>>>>>>>>> -a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-) >>>>>>>>>> -a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far >>>> from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially >>>>> in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a >>>> university would be it.
The 'dream' is not a reference to lack of rationality, but an adjective
meaning, in effect, very desirable.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >>>> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure if >>>> that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._ _ _
_. _ _ _ _
On 2025-09-23, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone structure if >>>>> that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._ _ _
_. _ _ _ _
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
On 2025-09-23 00:35, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
-a-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs >>>>>>>>>>>> with allsorts
-a-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised >>>>>>>>>>>> to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive >>>>>>>>>>> tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or >>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob >>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well
-a-a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-) >>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far >>>> from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially >>>>> in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So
the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they
have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to
live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds
weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking,
choosing a
university would be it.
The 'dream' is not a reference to lack of rationality, but an adjective
meaning, in effect, very desirable.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise
ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
Nor does the person on that cruise ship suddenly cease to exist - butPresumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
they would probably find that they cannot enter any country where the
ship enters port.
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
On 9/24/25 01:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-09-23, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or >>>>>> stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
-a I agree about the "translator" sites. Tried
-a to use them more than once. Horrible interface,
-a horrible results.
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or >>>>>> stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
Den 24.09.2025 kl. 22.19 skrev Sam Plusnet:
Nor does the person on that cruise ship suddenly cease to exist - butPresumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft >>>> when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
they would probably find that they cannot enter any country where the
ship enters port.
Except perhaps the free area[1], but the ship probably doesn't dock there.
[1] What is it called in English? It's the area where goods can be
stored for continued transport without customs being involved.
In article <10b1l7m$3th1u$1@dont-email.me>,
Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Den 24.09.2025 kl. 22.19 skrev Sam Plusnet:
Nor does the person on that cruise ship suddenly cease to exist - butPresumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft >>>>>> when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the >>>>> pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
they would probably find that they cannot enter any country where the
ship enters port.
Except perhaps the free area[1], but the ship probably doesn't dock there.
[1] What is it called in English? It's the area where goods can be
stored for continued transport without customs being involved.
"Free Port"
On 2025-09-23 23:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
.. / .- -.. -- .. - / ..
.-.. --- --- -.- . -.. / .. - / ..- .--.
The only letters I ever remember are
S and O because they are part of SOS
V because of Beethoven
On 2025-09-23 00:35, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
[1] A thought occurs. What happens to someone who is living on a
cruise
ship when their passport expires? Do they become stateless? Doomed to >>>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
On 25/09/25 07:02, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 23:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
.. / .- -.. -- .. - / ..
.-.. --- --- -.- . -.. / .. - / ..- .--.
The only letters I ever remember are
S and O because they are part of SOS
V because of Beethoven
I learnt Morse in my late teens because I wanted to get an amateur radio >licence. Unfortunately I never managed to get up to the required speed.
Over time other interests took over, and I stopped practicing Morse. As
a result, I can recognise about half the alphabet immediately, but have >forgotten the codes for the less common letters.
This discussion brings to mind an old strip from "The Wizard of Id". A
witch was flying on her broomstick, when without warning she crashed to
the ground. A bystander ran over and asked "What happened?". "The
warranty ran out", she said.
On 2025-09-24 05:54, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or >>>>>>> stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
Letters to morse, yes. The reverse, none. If it works for you, I'd like
to see a photo, so that I learn how to do it.
On 2025-09-24 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 05:54, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or >>>>>>>> stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
Letters to morse, yes. The reverse, none. If it works for you, I'd
like to see a photo, so that I learn how to do it.
Copy and paste the morse code below into https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 16:46:22 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-23 00:35, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:38:16 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-22 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 21/09/2025 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-21 22:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 20/09/2025 23:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-20 21:44, Sam Plusnet wrote:There are always alternatives.
On 19/09/2025 21:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-19 07:11, c186282 wrote:Who in their right mind would pay that kind of rent?
On 9/19/25 00:38, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:16:18 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
-a-a-a-aOf course I am low rent.-a I worked at low-paying jobs with allsorts
-a-a-a-aand
shades of skin color. Not being able to work full time or part >>>>>>>>>>>>> time did
not pay any better but I did the best I could and was raised to be
rather thrifty.-a A tight-wad and a penny-pincher wth expensive >>>>>>>>>>>>> taste for
my economic class.
I'm a college educated redneck but never developed expensive tastes
thankfully and have a minimalist life style. That led to little >>>>>>>>>>>> anomalies
like buying a relatively expensive computer while sleeping on a >>>>>>>>>>>> mattress
on the floor. The computer was a business expense anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>
I got the AARP mag today with the glossy photos of high end >>>>>>>>>>>> retirement
communities, scenic cruises, and vacations to exotic places for >>>>>>>>>>>> a glimpse
into another world. I'd rather mow the lawn and scratch the >>>>>>>>>>>> cat's ears
when she comes back from whatever exotic place she visits when I >>>>>>>>>>>> fire up
the lawnmower.
I read 'Walden' at a formative age I guess.
-a-a Heh ... I'm kind of in a similar groove. Don't need or >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a want the 'elegant lifestyle' bullshit or to hob-knob >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a with the 'elites' or project 'image'.
-a-a It's WAY cheaper - keeps you in the black and well >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a away from the red. Also just FAR less BS.
-a-a Cruises ... well, if you crave a dose of norovirus-a :-) >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a Besides, people might want to talk at you about
-a-a Stupid Stuff ...
Some people say that it is cheaper to live on a long cruise than >>>>>>>>>> paying the rent back home.
When there is no alternative...
They could move the South Wales.
(Rents are pretty cheap - for good & sufficient reasons.)
Well... not everybody wants to emigrate.
But they are prepared to 'leave home' and live aboard a cruise ship far >>>>> from anything they have known?[1]>
For instance, there are many jobs in the island of Mallorca, specially >>>>>> in summer. But there is no affordable houses or rooms to be had. So >>>>>> the workers sleep in tents or cars instead. They are not poor, they >>>>>> have good salaries. But housing prices skyrocketed.
Youths that managed to register to their dream university have to
abandon their studies because they don't get anywhere affordable to >>>>>> live while they study.
I'm sure you didn't invent the phrase, but "dream university" sounds >>>>> weird to me.-a If there was ever a time for rational thinking, choosing a >>>>> university would be it.
The 'dream' is not a reference to lack of rationality, but an adjective >>>> meaning, in effect, very desirable.
[1] A thought occurs.-a What happens to someone who is living on a cruise >>>>> ship when their passport expires?-a Do they become stateless?-a Doomed to >>>>> forever roam the waves without ever being able to visit dry land?
Presumably, the ship would be unable to evict them.>
Presumably the same thing that happens to a pilot flying an aircraft
when his airworthiness certificate expires. Nothing.
I think an airworthiness certificate applies to the aircraft, not the
pilot.
Indeed it does, but the aircraft does not suddenly crash.
No, but the authorities might not allow it to take off, just as they
might not allow a passenger without a passport to leave the ship,
though in that case the passenger might not want to, since they regard
the ship as their permanent home.
I learnt Morse in my late teens because I wanted to get an amateur radio licence. Unfortunately I never managed to get up to the required speed.
Over time other interests took over, and I stopped practicing Morse. As
a result, I can recognise about half the alphabet immediately, but have forgotten the codes for the less common letters.
Looking at the symbols here, some of my old clues for particular letters
came to mind. A tougher message would have beat me.
I'm pretty sure I never tested to see how many wpm I could achieve.
Oh, I only ever dealt with written code. I don't remember ever testing
with sounds, other than someone saying dit and dah.
I could just go to the airport, fire up the plane, tell the tower I was
ready to go. They would give me clearance to taxi to a runway, where I
would tell them I was ready for takeoff, and when safe, they'd clear me.
I would definitely not take off if my plane's CofA had expired, as it
would very be bad to get caught.
This discussion brings to mind an old strip from "The Wizard of Id". A
witch was flying on her broomstick, when without warning she crashed to
the ground. A bystander ran over and asked "What happened?". "The
warranty ran out", she said.
[1] What is it called in English? It's the area where goods can be
stored for continued transport without customs being involved.
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a flight,
and away he goes.
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An
airline pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned
to a flight, and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without
risking his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for
any outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is
fully within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet
safety criteria.
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in
to replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
On 2025-09-24 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 05:54, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone off a >>>>>>>> cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone
structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been lost or >>>>>>>> stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
Letters to morse, yes. The reverse, none. If it works for you, I'd
like to see a photo, so that I learn how to do it.
Copy and paste the morse code below into https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
On 2025-09-23 23:06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
__. ___ ___ _..
. _. ___ .._ __. ....
.. / .- -.. -- .. - / ..
.-.. --- --- -.- . -.. / .. - / ..- .--.
The only letters I ever remember are
S and O because they are part of SOS
V because of Beethoven
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a flight,
and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without risking
his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for any
outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is fully
within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet safety criteria.
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in to >replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
Yes, this one works. But this:
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
does not. I get:
IATTNTTTT
Notice that it has no dashes, but underlines.
I bought a pocket torch recently that has a mode in which it blinks the
LEDs in the morse code for SOS.
On 24/09/2025 21:44, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
[1] What is it called in English? It's the area where goods can be
stored for continued transport without customs being involved.
Freeport.. And indeed it may contain industries to process goods
without taxation on added value
On 2025-09-25 06:26, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-24 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 05:54, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:Letters to morse, yes. The reverse, none. If it works for you, I'd
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone >>>>>>>>> off a cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial >>>>>>>>> bone structure if that person asserted his or her Icelandic
passport had been lost or stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
like to see a photo, so that I learn how to do it.
Copy and paste the morse code below into
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
Yes, this one works. But this:
..
._ _ _
_. _ _ _ _
does not. I get:
IATTNTTTT
Notice that it has no dashes, but underlines.
On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:06:40 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
This discussion brings to mind an old strip from "The Wizard of Id". A >>witch was flying on her broomstick, when without warning she crashed to
the ground. A bystander ran over and asked "What happened?". "The
warranty ran out", she said.
Many people seem to have a similar misconception about Windows 10.
They are talking about the end of support from the vendor as though
it means "end of life" -- perhaps because they have heard the phrase
"life support" and assume that the two are necessarily connected in
all instances.
I can't speak for any other country than Canada, but nobody ever checked
to see if my plane had a current valid CofA. It was up to me to ensure
that it had one before I took off.
I could just go to the airport, fire up the plane, tell the tower I was ready to go. They would give me clearance to taxi to a runway, where I
would tell them I was ready for takeoff, and when safe, they'd clear me.
I would definitely not take off if my plane's CofA had expired, as it
would very be bad to get caught.
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a flight,
and away he goes.
I mostly flew out of uncontrolled airports and I'm not sure everything I flew was airworthy. There was one Lark, sort of a C-180 type from
Rockwell, that added a step to the final approach sequence -- pumping up
the brakes. I also flew a Tomahawk that some times needed a jump start and once the latch on the gull wing door broke. It gets sort of noisy and breezy.
On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:30:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a
flight,
and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without risking >>his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for any
outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is fully
within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet safety
criteria.
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in to >>replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
I was in a plane that returned to the gate for a half hour or so.
An air hostess explained that the pilot did not like the sound of the engines. So they replaced the pilot. That was not entirely comforting
news.
Den 25.09.2025 kl. 14.33 skrev Carlos E.R.:
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
Yes, this one works. But this:
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
does not. I get:
IATTNTTTT
Notice that it has no dashes, but underlines.
I don't understand why you complicate matters by using underscores and spaces. Dashes have an automatic space even if they are written close,
and then space can separate characters.
On 25/09/25 19:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An
airline pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned
to a flight, and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without
risking his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for
any outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is
fully within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet
safety criteria.
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in
to replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
I once sat in a plane for two hours in Brussels, before a decision not
to take off. We were put in a hotel overnight while a spare part was
flown in from Singapore.
On another occasion, on a flight from San Francisco to Sydney, the plane
ran out of fuel and had to land at some obscure Pacific island. The refuelling took a couple of hours, then we taxied out to the runway ...
and had to turn back when a tyre burst. That was on Pan Am, which
already had a bad reputation for poor maintenance.
On 2025-09-25, Peter Moylan wrote:
On another occasion, on a flight from San Francisco to Sydney, the
plane ran out of fuel and had to land at some obscure Pacific
island. The refuelling took a couple of hours, then we taxied out
to the runway ... and had to turn back when a tyre burst. That was
on Pan Am, which already had a bad reputation for poor
maintenance.
Unless I'm mistaken, running out of fuel in such a journey is *not*
something light, that could just happen out of the blue, so what
happened?
Some mistake refueling, or did Pan Am maintenance do something like
Air Transat did in the aircraft of their flight 236? (2001 YYZ-LIS, emergency landing on TER. That one burst tyres too, but because of
the forces involved in the unpowered landing (together with the lack
of some powered braking mechanisms?).
On 2025-09-25 06:26, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-24 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 05:54, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 17:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-24 00:34, lar3ryca wrote:
On 2025-09-23 14:00, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 23/09/2025 05:06, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2025 21:17:47 +0100, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Straying from the subject, IrCOm sure Iceland would take anyone >>>>>>>>> off a
cruise ship with good Icelandic and a plausible facial bone >>>>>>>>> structure if
that person asserted his or her Icelandic passport had been >>>>>>>>> lost or
stolen.
I'll have to brush up on my Old Norse.
Are you any good at Norse Code?
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
Interestingly, automated translators fail at this.
?
The only difference between what I posted and the output from these
three sites are the '/' to delineate words, where I uses a newline.
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
https://morsecodetranslator.com/
https://dnschecker.org/morse-code-translator.php
All three of them correctly translated "I am not".
Letters to morse, yes. The reverse, none. If it works for you, I'd
like to see a photo, so that I learn how to do it.
Copy and paste the morse code below into
https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html
--. --- --- -.. / . -. --- ..- --. .... ..--..
It translates to "GOOD ENOUGH?"
Yes, this one works. But this:
..
._-a-a _ _
_.-a-a _ _ _-a-a _
does not. I get:
IATTNTTTT
Notice that it has no dashes, but underlines.
On Wed, 24 Sep 2025 22:41:26 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
I could just go to the airport, fire up the plane, tell the tower I was
ready to go. They would give me clearance to taxi to a runway, where I
would tell them I was ready for takeoff, and when safe, they'd clear me.
I would definitely not take off if my plane's CofA had expired, as it
would very be bad to get caught.
I mostly flew out of uncontrolled airports and I'm not sure everything I
flew was airworthy. There was one Lark, sort of a C-180 type from
Rockwell, that added a step to the final approach sequence -- pumping up
the brakes. I also flew a Tomahawk that some times needed a jump start and once the latch on the gull wing door broke. It gets sort of noisy and
breezy.
On 2025-09-25, Peter Moylan wrote:
On another occasion, on a flight from San Francisco to Sydney, the plane
ran out of fuel and had to land at some obscure Pacific island. The
refuelling took a couple of hours, then we taxied out to the runway ...
and had to turn back when a tyre burst. That was on Pan Am, which
already had a bad reputation for poor maintenance.
Unless I'm mistaken, running out of fuel in such a journey is *not*
something light, that could just happen out of the blue, so what
happened?
Some mistake refueling, or did Pan Am maintenance do something like Air Transat did in the aircraft of their flight 236? (2001 YYZ-LIS,
emergency landing on TER. That one burst tyres too, but because of the
forces involved in the unpowered landing (together with the lack of some powered braking mechanisms?).
On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:30:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a flight, >>> and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without risking
his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for any
outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is fully
within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet safety criteria. >>
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in to
replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
I was in a plane that returned to the gate for a half hour or so.
An air hostess explained that the pilot did not like the sound of
the engines. So they replaced the pilot. That was not entirely
comforting news.
On 2025-09-25 00:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2025 22:41:26 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
I could just go to the airport, fire up the plane, tell the tower I was
ready to go. They would give me clearance to taxi to a runway, where I
would tell them I was ready for takeoff, and when safe, they'd clear me. >>> I would definitely not take off if my plane's CofA had expired, as it
would very be bad to get caught.
I mostly flew out of uncontrolled airports and I'm not sure everything I
flew was airworthy. There was one Lark, sort of a C-180 type from
Rockwell, that added a step to the final approach sequence -- pumping up
the brakes. I also flew a Tomahawk that some times needed a jump start and >> once the latch on the gull wing door broke. It gets sort of noisy and
breezy.
Same here. What I mentioned above was when I flew from controlled airports.
I flew rented 172s for a while, got a tail-dragger certification, and started flying a cub, owned by the RAA out of Delta Air Park. Eventually
I bought a Cessna 170 and flew that until I finally sold it and moved to Sakkatchewan.
Went in and out of some pretty interesting (read that as a bit scary) places. SWMBO and I flew into a BC Hydro right-of way up around
Desolation Sound one time, camped there and fished for a couple of days, then flew out the way we came in, Another time it was Pender Island, one
way in, same way back out. Coming in the grass runway was flat for a
little bit, then up a fairly steep hill, needing power to get to the
flat part at the top. Taking off downhill made for a very short takeoff run.
I really miss flying.
On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:06:40 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
This discussion brings to mind an old strip from "The Wizard of Id". A
witch was flying on her broomstick, when without warning she crashed to
the ground. A bystander ran over and asked "What happened?". "The
warranty ran out", she said.
Back in the day the J.B Hunt fleet had some of the first onboard computers and satellite tracking and were quite strict about the DOT regulation of
10 hours on duty. The joke was when you saw the skid marks where an 18 wheeler had locked up all tires that it was a J.B. Hunt driver that had
hit his 10 hours.
Swift and Hunt were the two companies everybody liked to pick on.
Went in and out of some pretty interesting (read that as a bit scary) places. SWMBO and I flew into a BC Hydro right-of way up arounddays,
Desolation Sound one time, camped there and fished for a couple of
then flew out the way we came in, Another time it was Pender Island,one
way in, same way back out. Coming in the grass runway was flat for arun.
little bit, then up a fairly steep hill, needing power to get to the
flat part at the top. Taking off downhill made for a very short takeoff
On 2025-09-25, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 25/09/25 19:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An
airline pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned
to a flight, and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without
risking his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for
any outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is
fully within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet
safety criteria.
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in
to replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
I once sat in a plane for two hours in Brussels, before a decision not
to take off. We were put in a hotel overnight while a spare part was
flown in from Singapore.
On another occasion, on a flight from San Francisco to Sydney, the plane
ran out of fuel and had to land at some obscure Pacific island. The
refuelling took a couple of hours, then we taxied out to the runway ...
and had to turn back when a tyre burst. That was on Pan Am, which
already had a bad reputation for poor maintenance.
Unless I'm mistaken, running out of fuel in such a journey is *not*
something light, that could just happen out of the blue, so what
happened?
Some mistake refueling, or did Pan Am maintenance do something like Air Transat did in the aircraft of their flight 236? (2001 YYZ-LIS,
emergency landing on TER. That one burst tyres too, but because of the
forces involved in the unpowered landing (together with the lack of some powered braking mechanisms?).
On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:30:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 25/09/2025 05:41, lar3ryca wrote:
Of course I am what is called in Canada, a private pilot. An airline
pilot does not have to worry about the CofA. He is assigned to a flight, >>> and away he goes.
Actually, I don't think he does.
He cannot fly a plane that does not meet safety criteria without risking
his licence. He is required to view the maintenance log for any
outstanding issues, and physically inspect the plane, and is fully
within his rights to refuse to fly it if it does not meet safety criteria. >>
I remember being held for 45 minutes while a mechanic was called in to
replace a blown bulb in a panel of warning lights...
I was in a plane that returned to the gate for a half hour or so.
An air hostess explained that the pilot did not like the sound of
the engines. So they replaced the pilot. That was not entirely
comforting news.
On 2025-09-26, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-25 00:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2025 22:41:26 -0600, lar3ryca wrote:
I could just go to the airport, fire up the plane, tell the tower I was >>>> ready to go. They would give me clearance to taxi to a runway, where I >>>> would tell them I was ready for takeoff, and when safe, they'd clear me. >>>> I would definitely not take off if my plane's CofA had expired, as it
would very be bad to get caught.
I mostly flew out of uncontrolled airports and I'm not sure everything I >>> flew was airworthy. There was one Lark, sort of a C-180 type from
Rockwell, that added a step to the final approach sequence -- pumping up >>> the brakes. I also flew a Tomahawk that some times needed a jump start and >>> once the latch on the gull wing door broke. It gets sort of noisy and
breezy.
Same here. What I mentioned above was when I flew from controlled airports. >> I flew rented 172s for a while, got a tail-dragger certification, and
started flying a cub, owned by the RAA out of Delta Air Park. Eventually
I bought a Cessna 170 and flew that until I finally sold it and moved to
Sakkatchewan.
A friend of ours flies a 120 out of Delta. We did a trip with him and one
of his RAA buddies up to Fort St. John a few weeks ago (3 airplanes total).
Went in and out of some pretty interesting (read that as a bit scary)
places. SWMBO and I flew into a BC Hydro right-of way up around
Desolation Sound one time, camped there and fished for a couple of days,
then flew out the way we came in, Another time it was Pender Island, one
way in, same way back out. Coming in the grass runway was flat for a
little bit, then up a fairly steep hill, needing power to get to the
flat part at the top. Taking off downhill made for a very short takeoff run.
I went into Pender Island one time. I managed to stop before the
steep hill at the other end, but I figured it would stop me if I
didn't. I don't know whether the strip is still open.
I really miss flying.
:-( If you're ever out this way again, look me up.
My wife recently got her licence too; we fly a 172
(a vintage B model, Continental engine and manual
flaps) out of Pitt Meadows.
On 2025-09-25 23:22, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
:-( If you're ever out this way again, look me up.
My wife recently got her licence too; we fly a 172
(a vintage B model, Continental engine and manual
flaps) out of Pitt Meadows.
I definitely will. No plans to come out that way yet, though.
A few years ago We went to Mesa, Arizona for a winter holiday.
I saw an ad for something that intrigued me. A fellow was offering a
'flying lesson' in a Stearman. When I explained that I was a pilot, but hadn't flown for about 10 years, he allowed me to do the flying. I did a 'lazy 8' at his request, and promting me.
He also asked me to do several things under his direction, like "turn to
a heading, climb to an altitude, and best of all, make the approach to
the airport on the way back. He handled the radio, and I did the
approach up until about 500 feet on final, when he took over. I then
taxied for a bit. I was pleased when he said that I had done very well.
On 2025-09-26, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
On 2025-09-25 23:22, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
:-( If you're ever out this way again, look me up.
My wife recently got her licence too; we fly a 172
(a vintage B model, Continental engine and manual
flaps) out of Pitt Meadows.
I definitely will. No plans to come out that way yet, though.
A few years ago We went to Mesa, Arizona for a winter holiday.
I saw an ad for something that intrigued me. A fellow was offering a
'flying lesson' in a Stearman. When I explained that I was a pilot, but
hadn't flown for about 10 years, he allowed me to do the flying. I did a
'lazy 8' at his request, and promting me.
He also asked me to do several things under his direction, like "turn to
a heading, climb to an altitude, and best of all, make the approach to
the airport on the way back. He handled the radio, and I did the
approach up until about 500 feet on final, when he took over. I then
taxied for a bit. I was pleased when he said that I had done very well.
Cool. I've heard of some funky airplanes you can get some rides
in down there. Some friends have been up in some pretty neat -
if expensive - machines, e.g. Mustang.
