From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11


Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd
4G or ram, then I understand. I mean, money is money.

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications 4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My wife had a i3 with a hdd
and it was unbearable. We put in an SSD and that help a lot even with the i3. --
Linux Mint 22.2, Thunderbird 128.14.0esr, Mozilla Firefox 143.0.1
Alan K.
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From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 29 Sep 2025 16:42:29 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
in article <10bectl$34q0f$1@dont-email.me> injection-info: ="abuse@eternal-september.org":

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >doesn't seem sensible in 2025.
Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?
Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

been using windows 11 24h2 on intel i3 3.7 ghz / 8 gb ram pc no problem,
but ms says 4 gb ram is minimum requirement ... recommend 8 gb or higher

(using Tor Browser 14.5.7) https://duckduckgo.com/?q=windows+11+system+requirements&ia=web&assist=true >The minimum system requirements for Windows 11 include a 1 GHz processor with two

or more cores, 4 GB of RAM, and 64 GB of storage. Additionally, your device must
support UEFI firmware with Secure Boot, have TPM version 2.0, and a graphics card
compatible with DirectX 12 or later. Dell Microsoft
Minimum System Requirements for Windows 11
To install or upgrade to Windows 11, your PC must meet the following minimum >hardware specifications:
Component Minimum Requirement
Processor 1 GHz or faster with 2 or more cores on a compatible 64-bit
processor or SoC
Memory (RAM) 4 GB or greater
Storage 64 GB or larger available disk space
System Firmware UEFI, Secure Boot capable
TPM Trusted Platform Module (TPM) version 2.0
Graphics Card Compatible with DirectX 12 or later with WDDM 2.0 driver Display High definition (720p) display that is greater than 9o
diagonally
Internet
Connection Required for updates and some features; a Microsoft
account is needed for setup
Additional Requirements for Upgrade
Your device must be running Windows 10, version 2004 or later to upgrade.
Ensure that you have installed the latest security updates.
Feature-Specific Requirements
Some features in Windows 11 may require additional hardware beyond the minimum >specifications. For example:
5G Support: Requires a 5G-capable modem.
Auto HDR: Requires an HDR monitor.
DirectStorage: Requires an NVMe SSD and a compatible DirectX 12 GPU.
For a smooth experience, ensure your device meets these requirements before >upgrading to Windows 11.
Microsoft Microsoft

[end quoted "search assist"]

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 9/29/2025 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Kernel storage in memory on Windows, used to be on the range
of 250-350MB. I once ran early Windows 10, in a VM, on only
256MB of RAM, with the Memory Compressor railed for the entire
session, and that's about as low as she will go :-) That's
how I know what the number is.

If you have any of the "sandbox" type security features installed,
a sandbox image kept in RAM is on the order of 2.3GB. Now we're up
to about 2.65GB.

On a 4GB machine then, you are left with 1.35GB (approximately).

Do you really think you can run Windows Update with that, under
all conditions ? I had some problems on Win10 x86 (32 bit) with
not being able to finish Windows Update because it ran out
of RAM.

Web surfing can consume a lot of RAM at times. At one time,
visiting the Yahoo News page cost 1GB of RAM. Not likely to be
true today. The page is toned down a bit.

Personal opinion, given that the memory sticks on
modern computers are so big, it's hard to find an excuse
for a machine only having 4GB. a DDR4 (cheaper) or DDR5 (faster)
DIMM come in 8GB and 16GB for example. For dual channel,
2x8GB gives you a DIMM for each slot, and as much memory
bandwidth as the design is likely to have. Check and make sure
of the config it ships with. 2x8GB could be "faster"
than 1x16GB as a shipped option.

And that's what I recommend, is 2x8GB for a total of 16GB
on a small machine. (The way they develop machines
with lower RAM offerings, is to solder the memory chips
to the motherboard, and use 32-bit wide chips instead of
the 8-bit wide chips on a regular DIMM. This allows
short-sheeting a computer design, forcing the user
to a small RAM amount, and leaving no DIMM slot for
upgrades. It's like handcuffs. If the machine says "4GB",
do your background research to find out whether the
RAM is soldered down and there is no DIMM slot!)

It really depends on the trending direction to enabling
all security features, as to whether all the RAM will be
eaten up by security frippery.

To test computers with the possibility of "low" memory allocations,
there are things like BCDEdit commands for disabling some
of the RAM and emulating a "small" machine. If you owned
a 32GB machine, and you wanted to see what a relative
was seeing with 4GB, you can turn off 28GB of your RAM
and run the computer with only 4GB enabled at OS level.

Here are some breadcrumbs from my notes file, for tracking
down examples of commands to use for the purposes of the
previous paragraph. I never write extensive missives
in the notes file, the notes are mainly to contain the keywords
for search. Like that magic number is going to be pretty magic
in a search :-) And of course Microsoft couldn't make this easy.
The second format seems a bit simpler. Maybe.

*******
bcdedit change memory available

bcdedit /set {18b123cd-2bf6-11db-bfae-00e018e2b8db} removememory 1536

bcdedit /deletevalue {18b123cd-2bf6-11db-bfae-00e018e2b8db} removememory

msconfig.exe

131072
114688 ==> truncatememory 0x1c00000000 (in a specific Windows Bootloader object, not in "current")
*******

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd
4G or ram, then I understand. I mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My wife had a i3 with a hdd
and it was unbearable. We put in an SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 9/29/2025 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

You can do better, believe me. There are laptops with low-end CPUs but
nice other specs.
--
Joel W. Crump
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd
4G or ram, then I understand. I mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My wife had a i3 with a hdd
and it was unbearable. We put in an SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

Do the AMD versions of that thing come with 8GB ? There may be some
models using Intel CPU, some models using AMD processors. Model number specific details.
Generally speaking, if a design uses a SODIMM slot, you are likely
to get more RAM in it. A thicker device makes this easier to do an SODIMM slot.

Ryzen 3 7320U processor, 8GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD. ...
The Aspire Go 14's Ryzen 3 7320U is a quad-core chip with eight threads

Zen2 4C/8T 2.4GHz base, 4.1Ghz boost (Zen2 is min for MBEC support) Launch Date 09/20/2022

Maybe a laptop using an N150 would have limits. No, even the
N150 is 16GB and only one memory channel. No speedup by using
two DIMMs. It helps to look these parts up. Just the same way
I was checking tomatoes at the grocery store an hour ago.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/241636/intel-processor-n150-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz/specifications.html

A thinner computer, like a tablet, may drop to 4GB so that
there is no DIMM slot and what RAM you get is soldered to
the motherboard. A couple 2GB 32-bit wide memory chips give
4GB on a 64-bit channel. Similar to the memory chips that are used
on 32GB DIMms (which have sixteen 2GB chips onboard). The BGA footprint
on the memory chips, allows 8-bit, 16-bit, or 32-bit (for embedded
device usage) to be made. The wide chips, allow fewer chips to make
a 64-bit array and a lower amount of memory (for meeting a price target).
You could use 1GB chips with 32-bit interface to make a 2GB computer
(but nobody does that now).

I can't get to Currys right now, it's geoblocked. So I have to guess.
Maybe I should go in via archive.org, "but that never works". Neither by Tor. Currys is safe. No one can do business with them.

*******

At retail, there aren't a lot of 2.5" 7mm HDD in easy reach,
and in general for HDD, the distribution chain for them is
kinda broken. All sorts of unexpected results. I've been to
the computer store, when there were *zero* HDD. Box, empty.
Today, there are two good sized boxes of random model numbers of HDD.
For example, I got the only 8TB drive in town. They are so cheap, on stocking, they stock one drive of a model, and once that's sold... <crickets>.
Imagine trying to build a RAID-5 where I live. What an adventure.

If you go with a big e-tailer, then there is a danger of getting
refurbished or chia pets (chia mining drives). The purpose of buying
local, is in the hopes a fairly honest distribution chain exists
that way.

It's possible Toshiba would ship HDD for current laptops, if
any manufacturer went that route. But the Windows specs generally
indicate SSD or better for storage, due to the slugging a HDD
takes when used as an alternative.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 9/29/2025 6:25 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:

On 9/29/2025 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

You can do better, believe me.-a There are laptops with low-end CPUs but nice other specs.

This is an attempt to simplify things too much.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/395018/how-much-ram-do-you-need-in-a-laptop.html

1) You need an amount of RAM your OS really needs. \___ total these up
2) And you need some RAM for your own usage. /

If you keep 200 browser tabs open, then the second line there
matters a bit more to you.

*******

The requirement spec on the Microsoft side, is split into two groups:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/windows/windows-11-specifications

4GB # No local CoPilot helpers loaded. No NPUs (all my machines are like this, no real NPU).

16GB # Hardware includes 40 TOPS NPU in the processing core.
# The suggested load of RAM set aside with that NPU, is 8GB
# This raised the RAM on these machines, to 16GB recommended (about 5GB belongs to you).

# AMD Ryzen AI 300 series \
# Intel Core Ultra 200V series \___ Some of these have bigger NPUs than others
# Snapdragon X series / One of these choices is very nice... for light work.
Allows the experimenter to load DeepSeek or a Llama or an Alpaca.

A video card can be used for AI Inference work, and for a number of calculation types, but the video card is a power hungry way of doing AI voice recognition. The devices inside the CPU, the 40 TOPS thing, is a bit easier on power, and not as wasteful as a $2000 video card.

One of the Ryzen AI 300 models, comes with 128GB of RAM, and is capable
of running <cough> "large" AI models at moderate speeds. This makes a nice balance
for people who can afford these. You can enter the AI world, for about $2000 using one of those machines. If you choose to brute force it, and do it properly, the current price is around $15000 or so (RTX6000 96GB VRAM, decent processor).
That is "mid to high" usage at home. There is a class of machine above this.

This means the market is "sparse", having no graduated pricing structure
for AI consumption. It's either gutless machines for AI (mine) or
expensive machines. One card is being held back, but it isn't necessarily
a "plum" anyway. It's an OK card, but not perfect, and it is not going
to retail sales. They are working on a replacement (...always playing catchup).

For any practical purpose, 4GB is a minimum if you expect the RAM amount
to be sufficient to end of life. 4GB is really going to strangle
the thing eventually. If you're on a budget, I think 8GB will extend
your machine life a little bit.

Let me make an example. My x64 laptop came with 3GB. Recently I could not
get Windows Update to finish without running out of RAM. Now, if I'd
taken care of this earlier, the sad little SODIMMS needed to bring
it up to 8GB would have been easy to get (DDR3 first gen). The right
modules ("small" DRAM chip type), I could only get those now in
the used market. Nobody makes the old chip type, and the newer chip
type need more address bits that the laptop does not have. And the
details are not available for me to verify my hardware for choosing
RAM. The web pages that list "what works" have already thrown out
my model from their listing. That is to give you an idea what
happens when you don't take care of RAM scaling in a timely fashion.
You lose.

My laptop, isn't even big enough to run Linux now!

DDR4 is effectively already out of production. If you acquire DDR4
equipment today, you are advised to "fill-er-up" no later than
end of 2025. DDR3 went out of production earlier on. You could buy
a $250 mini-PC with DDR5, if you wanted to use a "small" DIMM
and "buy up" when the machine has too little RAM to be useful.
DDR5 is still in production.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd
4G or ram, then I understand. I mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My wife had a i3 with a hdd
and it was unbearable. We put in an SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

I finally got through to the Currys site, so I guess they
had indigestion earlier today.

Acer Aspire Go 14" Laptop (NX.J3NEK.00R) <=== model number is not Acer-like and is not helping,
implies clearance model or something. Nothing wrong
with clearance models when the design is good.

https://www.windowscentral.com/laptops/acer-aspire-go-14-review

The reviews of the unit mention the colour rendering of the
screen is poor. Even though one web page claimed the screen
was "IPS".

The unit has no Ethernet connector. There is Wifi.

I tried to find a RAM upgrade for the unit on crucial.com
and that model is not on the crucial web page.

A takeapart video for a different Acer model, shows
they do solder RAM down on motherboards on machines like
that, underneath a plate and next to the CPU. Apparently, they
can even do that for machines with hefty RAM installations,
solder them down. An SODIMM is a "privilege" not a "right" :-/

But they won't tell you the RAM is soldered down.
Where is the full disclosure and truth in advertising ?

As a potential customer, I can't trust this industry,
further than I can throw them.

I watched a takeapart video, where the dude pretends to
remove ten screws from the bottom of the unit. The bottom
requires a spudger to separate it. The dude waves the spudger
around the edge of the machine, as if to apply no pressure,
as if using a spudger is not tedious and dangerous (scratch
up unit). If you're going to make a video, it should
demonstrate a sense of reality.

I would look for something different I guess. Either something
where you won't have regrets about the RAM amount, or something
where the RAM is listed as "upgrade-able".

No matter how much RAM, I am not a great fan of soldering like this
(what happens on a RAM failure?) . Could I find someone to do a
laptop repair with a hot air station in town ? We had a hot air station
at work, but nobody outside of my work, could convince us to repair anything. Total kit cost about six thousand (half the cost is a set of hoods
for the hot air, to restrict airflow to a single chip). The chips
cannot be too close together, to promote rework (hood should fit between
chips in an array of chips).

Paul


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 30/09/2025 10:19 am, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing
through the options I was surprised to see several options
with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user
experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them
and saving $$$ on that 2nd 4G or ram, then I understand. I
mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would
be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My
wife had a i3 with a hdd and it was unbearable. We put in an
SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

Do the AMD versions of that thing come with 8GB ? There may be some
models using Intel CPU, some models using AMD processors. Model
number specific details. Generally speaking, if a design uses a
SODIMM slot, you are likely to get more RAM in it. A thicker device
makes this easier to do an SODIMM slot.

Ryzen 3 7320U processor, 8GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD. ... The Aspire
Go 14's Ryzen 3 7320U is a quad-core chip with eight threads

Zen2 4C/8T 2.4GHz base, 4.1Ghz boost (Zen2 is min for MBEC support)
Launch Date 09/20/2022

Maybe a laptop using an N150 would have limits. No, even the N150 is
16GB and only one memory channel. No speedup by using two DIMMs. It
helps to look these parts up. Just the same way I was checking
tomatoes at the grocery store an hour ago.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/241636/intel-processor-n150-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz/specifications.html

A thinner computer, like a tablet, may drop to 4GB so that there is
no DIMM slot and what RAM you get is soldered to the motherboard. A
couple 2GB 32-bit wide memory chips give 4GB on a 64-bit channel.

Sorry, Paul, how do you get that??

I can see how 2 x 2GB 32bit chips might give you 4GB x 32bit *OR* 2GB x
64bit .... but *not* 4GB x 64bit.
--
Daniel70
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Tue, 9/30/2025 7:44 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 30/09/2025 10:19 am, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options
with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop?-a-a If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd 4G or ram, then I understand.-a I
mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor.-a-a I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations.-a What processor or HD.-a My wife had a i3 with a hdd and it was unbearable.-a We put in an
SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

Do the AMD versions of that thing come with 8GB ? There may be some models using Intel CPU, some models using AMD processors. Model number specific details. Generally speaking, if a design uses a SODIMM slot, you are likely to get more RAM in it. A thicker device makes this easier to do an SODIMM slot.

Ryzen 3 7320U processor, 8GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD. ... The Aspire Go 14's Ryzen 3 7320U is a quad-core chip with eight threads

Zen2 4C/8T 2.4GHz base, 4.1Ghz boost (Zen2 is min for MBEC support) Launch Date 09/20/2022

Maybe a laptop using an N150 would have limits. No, even the N150 is 16GB and only one memory channel. No speedup by using two DIMMs. It helps to look these parts up. Just the same way I was checking tomatoes at the grocery store an hour ago.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/241636/intel-processor-n150-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz/specifications.html

A thinner computer, like a tablet, may drop to 4GB so that there is
no DIMM slot and what RAM you get is soldered to the motherboard. A couple 2GB 32-bit wide memory chips give 4GB on a 64-bit channel.

Sorry, Paul, how do you get that??

I can see how 2 x 2GB 32bit chips might give you 4GB x 32bit *OR* 2GB x
64bit .... but *not* 4GB x 64bit.

When we discuss memory amounts at the Windows level, that is
total memory rather than "array dimensions" of locations inside
the chip.

----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data (on what would normally be a "DIMM channel")
| |
|/ |/
D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /|
| |
+---+---+ +---+---+
| 2GB | | 2GB |
+---+---+ +---+---+
| |
Chip-Select ----+------------+

There is a common CS (Chip Select) signal that causes commands to be driven
to the chips in parallel.

"On most architectures, the size of a cache line is 64 bytes"

Transactions are intended to be cache line sized, like an eviction
from L3 in the form of a cache line. 8 bytes total go to the two
chips per clock interval (DDR = double data rate, data on each edge).
It takes eight data intervals to transfer 64 bytes. Eight data intervals
is four clock ticks (DDR, on rising edge of clock and falling edge of clock).

When you have four chips (4 of the 2GB chips or 4 of the 1GB chips), with
32 bit width, you have sufficient hardware for dual channel. Now
the four chips are delivering a total of 16 bytes (128 bits) per total transfer,
so the burst length changes to four data intervals. The burst is shorter.
And CH0 and CH1 signals assert at the same time. This doubles the (during-the-burst-time) transfer rate. The bus has long idle times,
between these bursts, due to the timing of the memory process inside
the DRAM (it's really analog at some level inside, the clocked interface
is for easy control of the timing from the outside). Buses are not
100% efficient and are quite lazy.

----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data CH0 ----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data CH1
| | | |
|/ |/ |/ |/
D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /| D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /|
| | | |
+---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+
| 2GB | | 2GB | | 2GB | | 2GB |
+---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+
| | | |
CH0-Chip-Select --+------------+ | |
| |
CH1-Chip-Select ------------------------------------------------------+------------+

Memory chips can support much longer bursts. It is the cache line
orientation of the CPU, that destroys the transfer bandwidth. But the
page can stay open, so a later "transaction" (mega-transfers per second)
can be initiated sooner, with a shorter ceremony with respect
to RAS/CAS/BA. [Row Address, Column Address, Bank Address]

When you have four (identical) DIMMs in a computer, the access to the DIMMs alternates in DIMM pairs. First DIMM pair A then DIMM pair B then
back to DIMM pair A, as you march up through memory. Doubling the
number of DIMMs, doubles the open pages you an have and
the number of bus transactions that need fewer cycles.

On my 4930K machine (not really all that fast!), it has eight
DIMMs, and the interleaved storage pattern involves four pairs
of DIMMs. It's like a V8 engine in a sense :-) All of this
interleaving jazz... And interleaving like that, helps ensure
that all the DIMMs are at roughly the same temperature. (As a software
person, if you design your access pattern properly, you can make
one of the DIMMs excessively hot.)

Not all the hardware works this way, the description is for desktops.
And desktops with relatively low core counts. There can be more
independence in larger designs. Here, X and Y might happen to
access a different memory station each, and more of the memory
is kept active. Bursts of data go 'round the bus, with a tag
indicating "who asked for their data-sandwich". The layout in
memory then, has to have a pattern to it that gives some efficiency.
I have no idea how that works. The addressing on buses like
this, is why Intel processors have weird core limits, like
a 28 core processor being the largest chip in the family,
as some addresses on the ring are reserved for the memory
controllers. They are that cheap, on addresses :-) Some server
chips use rings, some use bus meshes (XY array of buses). They
don't even tell us any more, of the nature of the bus design.
(Like, what does "Infinity Fabric" mean...)

-------+----------+------------+--------------+------- (section of Ring Bus)
| | | |
CPUcoreX CPUcoreY MemoryStation MemoryStation
| | | |
DIMM DIMM DIMM DIMM

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Indeed lots of offers with only 4GB, not just laptops, but also
Mini-PCs.

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I don't, but I'm in the process of replacing my wife's 8GB Windows 10
system with a 16GB (Windows 11) one, because the 8GB one became too
slow. And she is a very light user (e-mail, web, light photo-editing,
always one thing at a time).

My last system was 12GB, my current one is 16GB.

Bottom line: 8GB minimum, but probably more.

As to prices, 379 pounds should be able to get you loads of 8GB
laptops and also some 16GB ones (at least here (NL) at (upto) 434 Euros.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Tue, 9/30/2025 2:05 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Indeed lots of offers with only 4GB, not just laptops, but also
Mini-PCs.

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I don't, but I'm in the process of replacing my wife's 8GB Windows 10 system with a 16GB (Windows 11) one, because the 8GB one became too
slow. And she is a very light user (e-mail, web, light photo-editing,
always one thing at a time).

My last system was 12GB, my current one is 16GB.

Bottom line: 8GB minimum, but probably more.

As to prices, 379 pounds should be able to get you loads of 8GB
laptops and also some 16GB ones (at least here (NL) at (upto) 434 Euros.

For some of the offers, you want to see them in person, in a shop if
you can, to ensure the screen is of sufficient quality to make
the thing a good gift or purchase. We get lots of things with "IPS screen", where the visual evidence does not match IPS when you look at it.
The screen types are TN (bad viewing angle, screen must be "tipped"),
IPS (good viewing angle, some bloom from edge lighting), and
VA (still a few kicking around, can have "rich color" or something).

TN twisted nematic (cholesteric crystals, polarizers)
IPS In Plane Switching (color doesn't change as you move your head)
VA Vertical alignment

( https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies )

For me, if I was looking for a laptop for my own consumption, I would
be laser focused on the screen first. I would *hate* to look at a TN
screen eight hours a day, if it was not necessary to do so. TN can be
"good for gamers", due to the speed of the response from the
panel materials. For the rest of us, the visual quality of the
others is more important.

IPS has been ruined to some extent, by patents. People make "slight tweaks"
to IPS, for patent-dodging reasons. So they won't have to pay a royalty,
or countervailing royalties cancel out. But the downside, is this has introduced some "slightly inferior IPS". This is why we cannot just
trust them and we have to look at the workmanship. When someone tells
you the gamut on your bargain-champ isn't very good, that's important
(at least to me, with my eyesight, I need a good screen).

I have not mentioned OLED or QLED in the above, which are active
emitters using quite tiny light emitting diodes in matrices. Those are relatively expensive, and they can have a bit of a burn-in problem.
They make for shockingly beautiful, expensive, and discardable
products. One I was looking at, a decent sized monitor at the
computer store, they wanted $2000 for it. OK then.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even
runs a very usable Win XP VM.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Indeed lots of offers with only 4GB, not just laptops, but also
Mini-PCs.

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I don't, but I'm in the process of replacing my wife's 8GB Windows 10 system with a 16GB (Windows 11) one, because the 8GB one became too
slow. And she is a very light user (e-mail, web, light photo-editing,
always one thing at a time).

Similar situation here. I'd need to check but pretty sure the current
machine is 8GB. Works fine, but can't imagine 4GB working well at all.

My last system was 12GB, my current one is 16GB.

Bottom line: 8GB minimum, but probably more.

As to prices, 379 pounds should be able to get you loads of 8GB
laptops and also some 16GB ones (at least here (NL) at (upto) 434 Euros.

I would have thought so as well, but they seem to be mostly chromebooks.
Dell inspirons look decent, tho.


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

MikeS <mikes@is.invalid> wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even runs a very usable Win XP VM.

With 4GB?

Hmm pretty sure that's the same laptop we have as well. How did you do the upgrade? Rufus?

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 01/10/2025 07:51, Chris wrote:

MikeS <mikes@is.invalid> wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even
runs a very usable Win XP VM.

With 4GB?

Hmm pretty sure that's the same laptop we have as well. How did you do the upgrade? Rufus?

Yes with 4GB.

It meets all the requirements except the processor is not on the MS
list. I did a very simple registry fix to bypass the check, downloaded
and mounted the ISO, then ran setup.exe as usual. There are very clear instructions in this article: https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-upgrade-your-incompatible-windows-10-pc-to-windows-11-2-free-options/

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

MikeS wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even runs a very usable Win XP VM.

Does the Windows 10 Acer Swift1 device have a TPM chip(1.2 or 2.0)??
--
...w-i|#-o-#-n|#
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

[...]

As to prices, 379 pounds should be able to get you loads of 8GB
laptops and also some 16GB ones (at least here (NL) at (upto) 434 Euros.

I would have thought so as well, but they seem to be mostly chromebooks.
Dell inspirons look decent, tho.

I looked specifically at Windows laptops (i.e. tick the Windows box,
don't tick the Chromebooks box). Brands were HP, Acer, Lenovo, Medion,
MSI, Asus (in no particular order).
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 01/10/2025 17:28, ...winston wrote:

MikeS wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM.
That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It
even runs a very usable Win XP VM.

Does the Windows 10 Acer Swift1 device have a TPM chip(1.2 or 2.0)??

Mine has TPM 2.0
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

MikeS wrote:

On 01/10/2025 17:28, ...winston wrote:

MikeS wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through
the
options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM.
That's
doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It
even runs a very usable Win XP VM.

Does the Windows 10 Acer Swift1 device have a TPM chip(1.2 or 2.0)??

Mine has TPM 2.0

I assumed your device did(1.2 or 2.0), if Ed's Zdnet article was used.
- i.e. that method relies on the presence of TPM 1.2 or 2.0
--
...w-i|#-o-#-n|#
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Wed, 10/1/2025 10:03 PM, ...winston wrote:

MikeS wrote:

On 01/10/2025 17:28, ...winston wrote:

MikeS wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>>>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>>>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even runs a very usable Win XP VM.

Does the Windows 10 Acer Swift1 device have a TPM chip(1.2 or 2.0)??

Mine has TPM 2.0

I assumed your device did(1.2 or 2.0), if Ed's Zdnet article was used.
-a- i.e. that method relies on the presence of TPM 1.2 or 2.0

You would need UEFI, TPM 2.0, and the UEFI would have to
support "Attestation" which is "Measured Boot".

I have an Optiplex here, with a TPM 1.4, and it is only
for encrypted disk usage. And that's because the BIOS
is missing Attestation.

Normally, because of the era it comes from, you expect the
presence of a TPM 2.0, to include Attestation capability in
the BIOS setup.

If you check the Security Device and Attestation if "off",
check the BIOS and make sure you have turned on Secure Boot,
and then the Attestation may indicate it is "on".

I've had other cases, where it was "off", and I couldn't make
it go "on". I don't know all the details there, of what to do next.

Paul


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 1/10/2025 2:10 am, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 9/30/2025 7:44 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 30/09/2025 10:19 am, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options
with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop?-a-a If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd 4G or ram, then I understand.-a I
mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor.-a-a I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations.-a What processor or HD.-a My wife had a i3 with a hdd and it was unbearable.-a We put in an
SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

Do the AMD versions of that thing come with 8GB ? There may be some models using Intel CPU, some models using AMD processors. Model number specific details. Generally speaking, if a design uses a SODIMM slot, you are likely to get more RAM in it. A thicker device makes this easier to do an SODIMM slot.

Ryzen 3 7320U processor, 8GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD. ... The Aspire Go 14's Ryzen 3 7320U is a quad-core chip with eight threads

Zen2 4C/8T 2.4GHz base, 4.1Ghz boost (Zen2 is min for MBEC support) Launch Date 09/20/2022

Maybe a laptop using an N150 would have limits. No, even the N150 is 16GB and only one memory channel. No speedup by using two DIMMs. It helps to look these parts up. Just the same way I was checking tomatoes at the grocery store an hour ago.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/241636/intel-processor-n150-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz/specifications.html

A thinner computer, like a tablet, may drop to 4GB so that there is
no DIMM slot and what RAM you get is soldered to the motherboard. A couple 2GB 32-bit wide memory chips give 4GB on a 64-bit channel.

Sorry, Paul, how do you get that??

I can see how 2 x 2GB 32bit chips might give you 4GB x 32bit *OR* 2GB x
64bit .... but *not* 4GB x 64bit.

When we discuss memory amounts at the Windows level, that is
total memory rather than "array dimensions" of locations inside
the chip.

----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data (on what would normally be a "DIMM channel")
| |
|/ |/
D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /|
| |
+---+---+ +---+---+
| 2GB | | 2GB |
+---+---+ +---+---+
| |
Chip-Select ----+------------+

There is a common CS (Chip Select) signal that causes commands to be driven to the chips in parallel.

"On most architectures, the size of a cache line is 64 bytes"

Transactions are intended to be cache line sized, like an eviction
from L3 in the form of a cache line. 8 bytes total go to the two
chips per clock interval (DDR = double data rate, data on each edge).
It takes eight data intervals to transfer 64 bytes. Eight data intervals
is four clock ticks (DDR, on rising edge of clock and falling edge of clock).

O.K., so quite possibly I'm getting lost in the meaning of "DDR".

If the two 2GB chips each have 32bit wide Data channels (i.e. D00-D31
and D32-D63 Data Bus Lines) they then total 2GB of 64 Bit wide Data

When you have four chips (4 of the 2GB chips or 4 of the 1GB chips), with
32 bit width, you have sufficient hardware for dual channel. Now
the four chips are delivering a total of 16 bytes (128 bits) per total transfer,

Yes, 128 bits wide ..... but still only 2GB of those 128 bit wide locations.

The rest just goes straight over my head, Paul. ;-)

so the burst length changes to four data intervals. The burst is shorter.
And CH0 and CH1 signals assert at the same time. This doubles the (during-the-burst-time) transfer rate. The bus has long idle times,
between these bursts, due to the timing of the memory process inside
the DRAM (it's really analog at some level inside, the clocked interface
is for easy control of the timing from the outside). Buses are not
100% efficient and are quite lazy.

----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data CH0 ----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data CH1
| | | |
|/ |/ |/ |/
D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /| D63-D32 /| D31-D00 /|
| | | |
+---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+
| 2GB | | 2GB | | 2GB | | 2GB |
+---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+ +---+---+
| | | |
CH0-Chip-Select --+------------+ | |
| |
CH1-Chip-Select ------------------------------------------------------+------------+

Memory chips can support much longer bursts. It is the cache line
orientation of the CPU, that destroys the transfer bandwidth. But the
page can stay open, so a later "transaction" (mega-transfers per second)
can be initiated sooner, with a shorter ceremony with respect
to RAS/CAS/BA. [Row Address, Column Address, Bank Address]

When you have four (identical) DIMMs in a computer, the access to the DIMMs alternates in DIMM pairs. First DIMM pair A then DIMM pair B then
back to DIMM pair A, as you march up through memory. Doubling the
number of DIMMs, doubles the open pages you an have and
the number of bus transactions that need fewer cycles.

On my 4930K machine (not really all that fast!), it has eight
DIMMs, and the interleaved storage pattern involves four pairs
of DIMMs. It's like a V8 engine in a sense :-) All of this
interleaving jazz... And interleaving like that, helps ensure
that all the DIMMs are at roughly the same temperature. (As a software person, if you design your access pattern properly, you can make
one of the DIMMs excessively hot.)

Not all the hardware works this way, the description is for desktops.
And desktops with relatively low core counts. There can be more
independence in larger designs. Here, X and Y might happen to
access a different memory station each, and more of the memory
is kept active. Bursts of data go 'round the bus, with a tag
indicating "who asked for their data-sandwich". The layout in
memory then, has to have a pattern to it that gives some efficiency.
I have no idea how that works. The addressing on buses like
this, is why Intel processors have weird core limits, like
a 28 core processor being the largest chip in the family,
as some addresses on the ring are reserved for the memory
controllers. They are that cheap, on addresses :-) Some server
chips use rings, some use bus meshes (XY array of buses). They
don't even tell us any more, of the nature of the bus design.
(Like, what does "Infinity Fabric" mean...)

-------+----------+------------+--------------+------- (section of Ring Bus)
| | | |
CPUcoreX CPUcoreY MemoryStation MemoryStation
| | | |
DIMM DIMM DIMM DIMM

Paul

--
Daniel70
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Thu, 10/2/2025 9:57 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 1/10/2025 2:10 am, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 9/30/2025 7:44 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 30/09/2025 10:19 am, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the options I was surprised to see several options
with only 4 GB RAM. That's doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience? >>>>>>>

Is it an inexpensive laptop?-a-a If you're making 1000's of them and saving $$$ on that 2nd 4G or ram, then I understand.-a I
mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor.-a-a I'm not sure I myself would be happy.

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations.-a What processor or HD.-a My wife had a i3 with a hdd and it was unbearable.-a We put in an
SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

Do the AMD versions of that thing come with 8GB ? There may be some models using Intel CPU, some models using AMD processors. Model number specific details. Generally speaking, if a design uses a SODIMM slot, you are likely to get more RAM in it. A thicker device makes this easier to do an SODIMM slot.

Ryzen 3 7320U processor, 8GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD. ... The Aspire Go 14's Ryzen 3 7320U is a quad-core chip with eight threads

Zen2 4C/8T 2.4GHz base, 4.1Ghz boost (Zen2 is min for MBEC support) Launch Date 09/20/2022

Maybe a laptop using an N150 would have limits. No, even the N150 is 16GB and only one memory channel. No speedup by using two DIMMs. It helps to look these parts up. Just the same way I was checking tomatoes at the grocery store an hour ago.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/241636/intel-processor-n150-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz/specifications.html

A thinner computer, like a tablet, may drop to 4GB so that there is
no DIMM slot and what RAM you get is soldered to the motherboard. A couple 2GB 32-bit wide memory chips give 4GB on a 64-bit channel.

Sorry, Paul, how do you get that??

I can see how 2 x 2GB 32bit chips might give you 4GB x 32bit *OR* 2GB x
64bit .... but *not* 4GB x 64bit.

When we discuss memory amounts at the Windows level, that is
total memory rather than "array dimensions" of locations inside
the chip.

-a-a-a-a-a-a ----- bus --+------------+---- 64-bit data-a-a (on what would normally be a "DIMM channel")
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |/-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |/
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a D63-D32 /|-a-a D31-D00 /|
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a +---+---+-a-a-a +---+---+
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |-a 2GB-a |-a-a-a |-a 2GB-a |
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a +---+---+-a-a-a +---+---+
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a |
-a-a Chip-Select ----+------------+

There is a common CS (Chip Select) signal that causes commands to be driven >> to the chips in parallel.

-a-a-a-a "On most architectures, the size of a cache line is 64 bytes"

Transactions are intended to be cache line sized, like an eviction
from L3 in the form of a cache line. 8 bytes total go to the two
chips per clock interval (DDR = double data rate, data on each edge).
It takes eight data intervals to transfer 64 bytes. Eight data intervals
is four clock ticks (DDR, on rising edge of clock and falling edge of clock).

O.K., so quite possibly I'm getting lost in the meaning of "DDR".

If the two 2GB chips each have 32bit wide Data channels (i.e. D00-D31 and D32-D63 Data Bus Lines) they then total 2GB of 64 Bit wide Data

When you have four chips (4 of the 2GB chips or 4 of the 1GB chips), with
32 bit width, you have sufficient hardware for dual channel. Now
the four chips are delivering a total of 16 bytes (128 bits) per total transfer,

Yes, 128 bits wide ..... but still only 2GB of those 128 bit wide locations.

The rest just goes straight over my head, Paul. ;-)

Each chip has a total array size of 2GB.

The internal dimensions are 512Meg x 4 bytes, the 4 bytes being the 32-bit bus connection.

4GB <--- 4 bytes ---> <--- 4 bytes --->
of +-------------------+ +-------------------+
RAM | | 512 million addresses | | 512 million addresses
storage +-------------------+ +-------------------+ total

The two chips receive the same address connections and the same addresses.
The two chips have the same RAS/CAS/BA and Chip Select.
Qualifiers are available, so selective bytes can be written.
You can write words on byte boundaries, by writing three bytes
on one access, and one byte on a second transaction.

But most of the time, the memory transactions are related to cache,
and read/write from, say, L3.

With computers, the marketing emphasizes the "clock signal speed",
whereas the honest truth is, some of the transactions on memory
are very inefficient, and if we showed you just how slow they
were, you'd be shocked :-)

It was the same with "AGP 8X" video cards. Always the emphasis on
the super-high clock for the thing. When some of the bus cycles
were PCI-type, running at 1X clock and slow as molasses. Video
cards like that, they used the AGP protocol for texture array
transfer. Similar to how our computers use the more efficient
mode for cache line transfers. But other operations might
not be nearly as efficient.

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:28:55 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

This is an attempt to simplify things too much.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/395018/how-much-ram-do-you-need-in-a-laptop.html

1) You need an amount of RAM your OS really needs. \___ total these up
2) And you need some RAM for your own usage. /

If you keep 200 browser tabs open, then the second line there
matters a bit more to you.

The concept is valid but the example could be better. When I had over
1200 tabs open-but-not-loaded in Firefox, the memory footprint was about
the same as when I had one tab open. Memory seems to be allocated on
demand rather than all at once.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 9/29/2025 5:55 PM, Chris wrote:

Alan K. <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

On 9/29/25 12:42 PM, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

Is it an inexpensive laptop? If you're making 1000's of them and
saving $$$ on that 2nd
4G or ram, then I understand. I mean, money is money.

It's not that cheap: -u379.

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/acer-aspire-go-14-laptop-amd-ryzen-3-128-gb-ssd-silver-10284368.html

Then MS says https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
4G is enough and a 1Ghz processor. I'm not sure I myself would be happy. >>

No would I, but wondering what peoples' experiences were like.

But there are other considerations. What processor or HD. My wife had a i3 with a hdd
and it was unbearable. We put in an SSD and that help a lot even with the i3.

Not sure any computer comes with an HDD these days.

I finally got through to the Currys site, so I guess they
had indigestion earlier today.

Acer Aspire Go 14" Laptop (NX.J3NEK.00R) <=== model number is not Acer-like and is not helping,
implies clearance model
or something. Nothing wrong
with clearance models
when the design is good.

https://www.windowscentral.com/laptops/acer-aspire-go-14-review

The reviews of the unit mention the colour rendering of the
screen is poor. Even though one web page claimed the screen
was "IPS".

I wouldn't expect much more at that end of the market.

The unit has no Ethernet connector. There is Wifi.

Can't remember the last time I needed an ethernet connection. Macbook Pros haven't had ethernet for ages.

I tried to find a RAM upgrade for the unit on crucial.com
and that model is not on the crucial web page.

A takeapart video for a different Acer model, shows
they do solder RAM down on motherboards on machines like
that, underneath a plate and next to the CPU. Apparently, they
can even do that for machines with hefty RAM installations,
solder them down. An SODIMM is a "privilege" not a "right" :-/

But they won't tell you the RAM is soldered down.
Where is the full disclosure and truth in advertising ?

As a potential customer, I can't trust this industry,
further than I can throw them.

Upgradability is not a feature in laptops anymore. They're a consumer item
like a fridge.

I watched a takeapart video, where the dude pretends to
remove ten screws from the bottom of the unit. The bottom
requires a spudger to separate it. The dude waves the spudger
around the edge of the machine, as if to apply no pressure,
as if using a spudger is not tedious and dangerous (scratch
up unit). If you're going to make a video, it should
demonstrate a sense of reality.

I would look for something different I guess. Either something
where you won't have regrets about the RAM amount, or something
where the RAM is listed as "upgrade-able".

Agree. Was just surprised to see several models with only 4GB. Must mean
people are buying them and was curious if anyone had used one.

Doesn't look like it and probably the wrong audience anyway as too techy.
No sensible tech would buy something with so little RAM. Even phones have more...

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

MikeS <mikes@is.invalid> wrote:

On 01/10/2025 07:51, Chris wrote:

MikeS <mikes@is.invalid> wrote:

On 29/09/2025 17:42, Chris wrote:

Am looking for a very basic, entry-level laptop and browsing through the >>>> options I was surprised to see several options with only 4 GB RAM. That's >>>> doesn't seem sensible in 2025.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 4GB still suitable?

Anyone have a 4GB machine and can comment on the user experience?

I have an Acer Swift1 bought 7 years ago with Win 10 and recently
upgraded to Win 11. No ball of fire but fine for everyday tasks. It even >>> runs a very usable Win XP VM.

With 4GB?

Hmm pretty sure that's the same laptop we have as well. How did you do the >> upgrade? Rufus?

Yes with 4GB.

It meets all the requirements except the processor is not on the MS
list. I did a very simple registry fix to bypass the check, downloaded
and mounted the ISO, then ran setup.exe as usual. There are very clear instructions in this article: https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-upgrade-your-incompatible-windows-10-pc-to-windows-11-2-free-options/

Thanks

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Thu, 10/2/2025 1:14 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

On Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:28:55 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

This is an attempt to simplify things too much.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/395018/how-much-ram-do-you-need-in-a-laptop.html

1) You need an amount of RAM your OS really needs. \___ total these up >> 2) And you need some RAM for your own usage. /

If you keep 200 browser tabs open, then the second line there
matters a bit more to you.

The concept is valid but the example could be better. When I had over
1200 tabs open-but-not-loaded in Firefox, the memory footprint was about
the same as when I had one tab open. Memory seems to be allocated on
demand rather than all at once.

It might depend on your browser. I have a range of browsers,
and there's an old one in the bunch. The tabs on that are
relatively static.

When a machine has a 4GB RAM total, it implies to me the RAM is
soldered down, so not only is the RAM given rather a low amount,
they also won't let you fix it. But they also make some higher end
laptops, with stacked DRAM inside the processor package boundary, that
have the same problem (and the number in the advert is higher
than the 4GB give-away value).

This one has memory silicon die, on top of one another, inside
those satellite plastic packages. Each stack is 8GB.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/CvcqX85m7TkTkbAbZGrsth-1200-80.png.webp

This is the commercial offering of those stacked DRAM packages. The high ball count suggests maybe the dice are uncommitted.

https://semiconductor.samsung.com/dram/lpddr/lpddr5x/k3kl3l30cm-bgct/

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2