From Newsgroup: alt.bible

On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 16:06:02 -0500, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:

You are misrepresenting what the Bible actually teaches. LetAs examine
this carefully.

Morning. Yes, let's always do.

1. Ezekiel 18:4 does not mean annihilation.

It is easy to say it doesn't, when it does. Where were you before you
were born? That's where you go when you die.

When Ezekiel says othe soul who sins shall dieo (Ezekiel 18:4, ESV), he
is speaking of physical death under the Law of Moses. It is a legal >principle of GodAs justice. It does not say that the soul ceases to
exist after death. In fact, the same book makes clear that the wicked
owill bear their iniquityo (Ezekiel 44:10, 12). Ceasing to exist would
not be bearing anything.

Having your life taken away is not bearing iniquity? That is the
ultimate 'bearing'.

Also recall, the Bible never uses the phrase "immortal soul". That was
tacked on by imperfect men.

So where do fish go when they die? Are their souls immortal also?
Please answer. To review:

- Darby's Bible
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living
souls [nephesh], and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of
the heavens. (my brackets)

-- King James
Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the
sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul
[psuche] died in the sea.

2. The New Testament shows conscious existence after death.

o Jesus said, oDo not fear those who kill the body but cannot
kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and
body in [Gehenna]o (Matthew 10:28, ESV). This shows the soul
survives physical death, or else men ocouldo kill it. God alone
holds power over the soul after death.

But this Scripture agrees with Eze 18:4, in that a soul can be killed
or destroyed.

But actually in this case, a "soul" means the 'future life' of an
individual. Does this apply to the fish souls of Gen 1:20 also? Please
answer.

o Paul said, oMy desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that
is far bettero (Philippians 1:23, ESV). If death meant ceasing
to exist, Paul would not call it obetter.o

I can understand why you are confused. Paul and those with him, had a
Heavenly hope. He is part of the 144,000 going to Heaven. When they
die, they immediately go to Heaven with a spirit body (1 Cor 15:44) ,
since flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom. (1 Cor 15:50)

o To be oaway from the bodyo is to be oat home with the Lordo (2
Corinthians 5:8, ESV). ThatAs conscious presence,

See the paragraph right above.

not
nonexistence.

o Jesus told the thief on the cross, oTruly, I say to you, today
you will be with me in Paradiseo (Luke 23:43, ESV). That
promise has meaning only if the manAs soul continued after
death.

You just called Jesus a liar. There is no way that thief could be with
Jesus in Heaven that same day. The translators put the comma in the
wrong place. That is why you are confused.

JESUS HAD TO BE IN THE GROUND FOR 3 DAYS AND NIGHTS. Jesus likened to
Jonah being in the belly of the big fish for 3 days and nights.
(Matthew 12:39, 40; 16:21.)

3. Jesus taught conscious torment for the unbelieving dead.
In Luke 16:19u31, the rich man is described as oin tormento after death, >while Lazarus is comforted. This is not annihilation. Jesus put this in >unmistakable terms so that men would take warning.

Still clutching to that rich man parable I see. Like I said before,
here are some logical conclusions from that parable:

If Jesus meant for us to take the parable literal, then we would have
to draw these conclusions:

(a) when righteous people die, they end up in Abraham's bosom. (Verse
22)

(b) a drop of water would not evaporate in a blazing fire and would
bring a person in this blazing fire, relief. (Verse 24)

(c) Hades is within calling distance of Heaven. (Verse 24,25)

Also people are alive in Hades (hell). This contradicts other
scriptures such as Ec 9:5 and Ps 146:3,4 which says that the dead are
not conscience.

(d) just being rich puts you in a fiery hell when you die. His only
fault was he didn't share with the poor. (Verse 23)

(e) just being poor gets you into Heaven when you die. (Verse 22)

Also, what is Abraham doing in Heaven when Jesus said that no human up
to this time had EVER been to heaven? Not Moses, not Isaiah, not
Ezekiel, etc. Jesus says at John 3:13,

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from
heaven--the Son of Man." (NIV)

No, there is no hellfire doctrine here. Jesus was telling a story (a
parable) to make a point.

4. Degrees of judgment require conscious existence.

Jesus said it would be omore tolerable on the day of judgment for the
land of Sodom than for youo (Matthew 11:24, ESV). He also said of Judas,
oIt would have been better for that man if he had not been borno (Mark >14:21, ESV). There are no degrees of nonexistence. These verses only
make sense if the soul consciously experiences judgment.

Negatrons. When the Devil and the wicked humans are tossed into the
(symbolic) lake of fire, they all receive that SAME degree of
judgment. The lake of fire is the great equalizer.

5. The Bible never says the soul is annihilated.

It most certainly does.

-- King James
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a
living soul.

Thus the man IS A SOUL. And when a man dies, a soul dies, since the
Bible gives the equation: man=soul.
Also, Jesus and Paul called dead people "sleeping".

While oimmortal soulo as a phrase does not appear, the concept is
plainly taught:

o oThis perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this
mortal body must put on immortalityo (1 Corinthians 15:53,
ESV).

Yes, like Paul said "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom".
Paul is referring to Heaven here. Thus God will give them a SPIRIT
body in order to enter Heaven forever.

Members of the 144,000 do not "sleep" like the rest do, but
immediately after death are given a spirit body, then go to Heaven.

o oThey will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away
from the presence of the Lordo (2 Thessalonians 1:9, ESV).
oEternal destructiono means ongoing ruin, not ceasing to exist.

That's your slant on that Scripture. That contradicts the Bible in
many places.

If I throw a piece of paper into a raging fire, what happens to it?
Does it continue on as an ongoing ruin? Or is it not completely
destroyed.

Even the demons know their fate:

- New King James
Luke 4:34 saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus
of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know You, who You are the
Holy One of God!''

Yes, they and all others tossed into that "second death" (lake of
fire) place will be destroyed.

6. Philosophers did not invent the soulAs immortalityuGod revealed it.

The Bible was already teaching conscious existence after death before
Plato or Aristotle. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as living
to God long after their deaths (Matthew 22:32, ESV).

You are missing the boat. ALL the OT people are in God's mind awaiting
the general resurrection of the dead. (Acts 24:15)

Samuel appeared and

spoke after his death (1 Samuel 28:15)

Where was he at then? Floating around waiting for a woman who contacts
the dead, to contact him? Samuel would NEVER cooperate with
spiritists.

All of Samuel's arrangement of atoms were in God's inconceivable mind.
He will bring him back at Acts 24:15.


. Moses and Elijah appeared and

conversed with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

I have already showed you, that wasn't real, that was a VISION:

- New King James
Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded
them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen
from the dead.''

And notice Jesus is risen from the DEAD, not from being alive
somewhere else.

How long is this time period of a living person? From everlasting to everlasting. Is that not infinity?

-- New King James
Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting,
You are God.

Yes, Jesus CAN'T be God because God never died!

The soul continues after death, either in comfort with Christ or in
torment awaiting final judgment. That is why the gospel is so urgent.

Sorry I am so blunt, but yours is a gospel of Satan. He loves to hear
what the churches teach, since the Devil himself introduced those
doctrines to them.

The Bible is a beautiful flowing writing that is one account from
Genesis to Revelation. Most of it pointing to the arrival and ministry
of Jesus.

Hopefully someday you will take off that sleep church mask, and see
the glaring truths as they really are:

23. "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking
such to worship Him.
24. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit
and truth.''

Also notice Jesus uses the same expression of "I am" here:

- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
John 4:26 Jesus said, "That is who I am, I who speak to you."

And he is not saying he is God.

Sincerely James
"Will Diplomacy Bring Peace?"
See jw.org 8/18/2025)


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.bible

LetrCOs test each claim by Scripture.

1. Ezekiel 18:4 and rCLthe soul who sins shall die.rCY

Ezekiel is enforcing covenant justice in this life (cf. Ezekiel 18:20). rCLDierCY in Scripture does not have to mean rCLcease to exist.rCY If it did, the wicked could not rCLbear their iniquityrCY (Ezekiel 44:10, 12). In the same book God speaks of future accountability, not nonrCaexistence.

2. rCLWhere were you before you were born?rCY

NonrCaexistence before creation does not decide the nature of existence
after death. God reveals what comes after death: rCLIt is appointed for
man to die once, and after that comes judgmentrCY (Hebrews 9:27, ESV). Judgment presupposes continued personal existence.

3. rCLSoulsrCY of fish (nephesh/psuch-o)

Hebrew nephesh and Greek psuch-o can mean rCLliving creature/life.rCY Animals are called nephesh (Genesis 1:20) because they are living beings, but
only man bears GodrCOs image (Genesis 1:27) and faces resurrection and judgment (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28rCo29). Scripture does not teach an
afterlife destiny for animals; its focus is mankind. Insufficient data. Scripture does not explain where animals rCLgorCY after death.

4. Matthew 10:28rCowhat does rCLdestroyrCY mean?

rCLDo not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather
fear him who can destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna]rCY (Matthew
10:28, ESV). rCLDestroyrCY translates b+C-C-i++++-a+++| (apollymi), which often means
rCLruin/loserCY rather than rCLannihilaterCY (e.g., the rCLlostrCY sheep, Luke 15:4;
the rCLperishrCY of John 3:16). Jesus warns of GodrCOs final, ruinous judgment of the whole person in [Gehenna], not of ceasing to exist. This word
addresses human disciples under judgment; it does not apply to fish.

5. Conscious existence affirmed

rCLToday you will be with me in ParadiserCY (Luke 23:43, ESV). JesusrCO fixed formula is rCLAmen, I say to yourCa,rCY not rCLAmen, I say to you todayrCarCY. He
uses it scores of times without rCLtoday.rCY And that very day Jesus said, rCLFather, into your hands I commit my spirit!rCY (Luke 23:46, ESV), showing conscious existence beyond the tomb.

PaulrCOs hope is immediate presence: rCLMy desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far betterrCY (Philippians 1:23, ESV); rCLwe would
rather be away from the body and at home with the LordrCY (2 Corinthians
5:8, ESV). This is said to the church as a whole, not to a limited
144,000. The saved rCLwill always be with the LordrCY (1 Thessalonians 4:17, ESV), and John sees a rCLgreat multituderCa before the thronerCY (Revelation 7:9rCo10, ESV).

6. Luke 16:19rCo31 is plain warning, not annihilation

Jesus names Lazarus and Abraham (unique among His narratives), which is
odd if it were a mere illustrative fable. Even if one insists it
functions parabolically, parables teach truths consistent with their
pictures, not the opposite. The account teaches conscious comfort and conscious anguish after death, a fixed gulf, and the decisive
sufficiency of Moses and the Prophets (Luke 16:25rCo31, ESV). The rich man
is not condemned for being rich but for hardened unbelief that bore
fruit in lovelessness (16:29rCo31). rCLA drop of waterrCY and rCLconversationrCY
are narrative details that convey reality (anguish, separation, regret),
not the physics of the intermediate state.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalm 146:4 describe what is rCLunder the sunrCYrCothe end of earthly plans and awareness hererConot the abolition of the person before God. The same book concludes, rCLthe dust returns to the earthrCa and the spirit returns to God who gave itrCY (Ecclesiastes 12:7, ESV). Jesus Himself argues from Exodus 3:6 that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob live to
God (Luke 20:37rCo38, ESV).

7. Degrees of judgment prove consciousness

rCLIt will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom
than for yourCY (Matthew 11:24, ESV). rCLThat servant who knew his masterrCOs willrCa will receive a severe beatingrCa the one who did not knowrCa a light beatingrCY (Luke 12:47rCo48, ESV). rCLIt would have been better for that man if he had not been bornrCY (Mark 14:21, ESV). There are no degrees of nonrCaexistence. Scripture teaches degrees of punishment, which require conscious experience. Final judgment is rCLaccording to what he had donerCY (Revelation 20:12, ESV; Romans 2:5rCo6).

8. Eternal punishment described, not hinted

rCLIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you
to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell
[Gehenna], to the unquenchable firerCY (Mark 9:43, ESV).

Jesus adds,

rCLwhere their worm does not die and the fire is not quenchedrCY
(Mark 9:48, ESV).

Fire that is rCLnot quenchedrCY and a worm that rCLdoes not dierCY signal ongoing judgment.

rCLThey will be tormented with fire and sulfurrCa and the smoke of
their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest,
day or nightrCY (Revelation 14:10rCo11, ESV).

rCLThe devilrCa was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfurrCa and they
will be tormented day and night forever and everrCY (Revelation
20:10, ESV).

This is the plainest language of conscious, unending punishment.

rCLEternal destructionrCY (2 Thessalonians 1:9, ESV) is ruin that lasts as long as rCLeternal liferCY lasts (Matthew 25:46, ESV). The parallel demands qualitative, unending reality in both directions.

9. rCLBut fire canrCOt burn souls.rCY

You keep repeating the same refuted nonsense again and again, after
being shown the correct answer. The fire is rCLprepared for the devil and
his angelsrCY (Matthew 25:41, ESV), which shows the judgment is perfectly suited to spirit beings. Jesus confronts demons who cry, rCLHave you come
here to torment us before the time?rCY (Matthew 8:29, ESV). Demons fear
future torment, not nonrCaexistence.

10. Samuel, Moses, and Elijah after death

1 Samuel 28 repeatedly says rCLSamuel saidrCY (28:15rCo19, ESV). Are you calling the Bible a liar? God overruled a forbidden practice to deliver
His word of judgment; the mediumrCOs terror signals that this was no
ordinary trick. On the mountain, rCLMoses and ElijahrCa talked with himrCY (Matthew 17:3, ESV). Matthew 17:9 calls the event a rCLvision,rCY but
visions can present real persons truly alive (cf. Acts 9:12; 2
Corinthians 12:1). These passages fit JesusrCO teaching that the
patriarchs rCLliverCY to God (Luke 20:38, ESV).

11. John 3:13 and rCLno one has ascendedrCY

Jesus is saying no one has ascended into heaven to bring down saving revelation; only the Son has heavenly origin and authority to reveal God
(cf. John 1:18). This does not deny continued existence of the dead
before God, as JesusrCO own argument in Luke 20:37rCo38 affirms.

12. Quick answers you requested (same repeated brainwashing ideas that
you've already been corrected on).

rCo Do fish have immortal souls? The Bible doesn't say fish were
created in the image of God. Man was. Scripture never teaches
an afterrCadeath destiny for animals. Its concern is mankind in
GodrCOs image facing resurrection and judgment (Genesis 1:27;
John 5:28rCo29). Insufficient data. Scripture does not explain
how or why this would happen for animals.

rCo Does Matthew 10:28 apply to animals? No. Jesus addresses human
disciples and human judgment.

rCo Is rCLsleeprCY equal to nonrCaexistence? No. rCLSleeprCY is a metaphor
for the bodyrCOs death (e.g., John 11:11rCo14; 1 Thessalonians
4:13rCo16). It says nothing about the soulrCOs consciousness before
God.

rCo rCLMan became a living soulrCY (Genesis 2:7): yesrComan became a
living being (nephesh). That definition does not decide the
soulrCOs endurance after death; later revelation does (see
above).

13. The two clinchers you have never overturned

rCo rCLIt will be more tolerablerCa for SodomrCY (Matthew 11:24, ESV).
Degrees of punishment require consciousness.

rCo rCLIt would have been betterrCa not bornrCY (Mark 14:21, ESV). That
statement is meaningless if Judas simply ceased to exist.

The whole witness of ScripturerCofrom the LordrCOs own warnings about [Gehenna] and rCLunquenchable fire,rCY to RevelationrCOs rCLno rest, day or night,rCY to explicit teaching on degrees of judgmentrCorefutes annihilationism and establishes conscious, eternal punishment for the unrepentant, and conscious, eternal comfort for the redeemed. That is
why the gospel summons sinners to flee the wrath to come and to rest by
faith in the crucified and risen Christ rCLwho delivers us from the wrath
to comerCY (1 Thessalonians 1:10, ESV).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (rCa), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).

https://christrose.news/salvation

To automatically receive daily Bible teaching updates with colorful
images and website formatting, subscribe to my feed in a client like Thunderbird:

https://www.christrose.news/feeds/posts/default
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2