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And I say you're varying degrees of nuts on all three.
For The Longest Time is where you are nuts, cuckoo and whacko. All the
voices are Billy Joel and there is no vocal group, period!
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 19:54:18 +0000, bbug wrote:
If one guy doing all the voices can make a vocal group record, I'd like
an answer to a question I posted previously in jest. Is "Ain't Got No
Home" a vocal group record? I remember you saying there had to be three
voices to make one.
Even A1 records are vocal group records ifthey feature the sound of a vocal group, and there's no actual person
singing on those. A computer program is creating the vocal group sound
Bruce wrote:'
Even A1 records are vocal group records ifthey feature the sound of a vocal group, and there's no actual person
singing on those. A computer program is creating the vocal group sound
These and other examples you give such as multiple voices by the same
artist as vocal group records are not vocal group records. They are
IMITATION vocal group records.
If they were not vocal group records then you should be able to discern
that just by hearing them. The fact that you only declare them not be
vocal group records is when you learn where those vocal sounds came from >shows that they ARE vocal group records.
The fact that you would reverse your classification only upon
discovering that the same person is singing all 5 parts just shows how >illogical your method is.
ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS!
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:10:11 +0000, savoybg@aol.com (Bruce) wrote:
If they were not vocal group records then you should be able to discern >>that just by hearing them. The fact that you only declare them not be
vocal group records is when you learn where those vocal sounds came from >>shows that they ARE vocal group records.
The fact that you would reverse your classification only upon
discovering that the same person is singing all 5 parts just shows how >>illogical your method is.
ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS!
Despite this wise principle, Bill and Roger will persist in promoting
their own *idiosyncratic* definitions of what a vocal group record(ing)
is.
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:00:42 +0000, bbug wrote:
Bruce wrote:'
Even A1 records are vocal group records ifthey feature the sound of a vocal group, and there's no actual person >>>singing on those. A computer program is creating the vocal group sound
These and other examples you give such as multiple voices by the same
artist as vocal group records are not vocal group records. They are
IMITATION vocal group records.
If they were not vocal group records then you should be able to discern
that just by hearing them. The fact that you only declare them not be
vocal group records is when you learn where those vocal sounds came from shows that they ARE vocal group records.
And method of classification of a sound recording that requires more
than just hearing it is a cop out IMO. If I played you the Blue Sky Boys record and said that it was an unissued track from the 50s by an unknown group you would surely agree that it's a vocal group record. It's got a
lead, first tenor, a second tenor, a baritone and a bass singing on it.
The fact that you would reverse your classification only upon
discovering that the same person is singing all 5 parts just shows how illogical your method is.
ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS!
I suppose you are entitled to your opinion but I don't share it--and I
don't think you (or anyone else here similarly minded) did until you
appear appear to have had this change of opinion of Damascene
proportions very recently.
Otherwise the questions still beg - why did NOBODY BUT NOBODY ever
query the case of the most famous and biggest selling artist of the
entire era now being proposed as having a whole shaft of "vocal group records" to his name OMITTED ENTIRELY from BOTH Vocal Group Battles????
And why in God's name has it taken at least 25 years of this group for
this dispute to suddenly rear its ugly head? I don't recall ANYONE ever bringing all this up before. Unkind folk might think that these new
opinions were only formed very very recently.
It seems that both Bill and Roger are exceedingly rigid in their way of >thinking. Stuck in a box, if you will.
On Mon, 4 Nov 2024 6:44:41 +0000, Roger wrote:
I suppose you are entitled to your opinion but I don't share it--and I
don't think you (or anyone else here similarly minded) did until you
appear appear to have had this change of opinion of Damascene
proportions very recently.
Otherwise the questions still beg - why did NOBODY BUT NOBODY ever
query the case of the most famous and biggest selling artist of the
entire era now being proposed as having a whole shaft of "vocal group
records" to his name OMITTED ENTIRELY from BOTH Vocal Group Battles????
As I said before, it was your project so you set the rules. If you had
to actually include every vocal group record as I define them it would
have been way too much work to come up with the ballot.
And why in God's name has it taken at least 25 years of this group for
this dispute to suddenly rear its ugly head? I don't recall ANYONE ever
bringing all this up before. Unkind folk might think that these new
opinions were only formed very very recently.
Well my vocal group lists that I have been posting in your threads are
at least 10 years old. Lots of the records that you say are not vocal
group records have been Kreiter's book and other vocal group
discographies since before this forum existed. I just opned a random
page and there are a shitload of them.
Ted Taylor on Soncraft
Chuck Foote on Soncraft
Allen Ryan on Sonic
Fontella Bass on Sonja
Lee Tillman on Sonora
Donald Height on Soozee
Deroy Green on Soozee
George Allen on Sotoplay
Gloria Mann on Sound
Ronnie Barron on Soundex
Dickie Wonder on Sound of Soul
That's just one page.
Lots of people have always considered these things to be vocal group
records.
Geoff wrote:
It seems that both Bill and Roger are exceedingly rigid in their way of >>thinking. Stuck in a box, if you will.
How ridiculous! To require an actual vocal group for a record to be considered a vocal group record.
So if Willie Winfield, Sonny Til, Gerald Gregory, Rudy West and TonyWilliams got together and made a group harmony recording they would not
Suppose they gave themselves a name like the Harmony All-Stars, wouldthey then be an "actual" vocal group?
Suppose they got together a second time a year later and made anothergroup harmony recording? Would they then qualify as an "actual" vocal
What are the requirements for a vocal group like this to become an"actual" vocal group?
Bruce wrote:
So if Willie Winfield, Sonny Til, Gerald Gregory, Rudy West and TonyWilliams got together and made a group harmony recording they would not
be an "actual" vocal group?
They would be.
Suppose they gave themselves a name like the Harmony All-Stars, wouldthey then be an "actual" vocal group?
Even without a name.
Suppose they got together a second time a year later and made anothergroup harmony recording? Would they then qualify as an "actual" vocal
group?
Still, yes
What are the requirements for a vocal group like this to become an"actual" vocal group?
First and foremost, THEY HAVE TO BE ALIVE.
Bruce wrote:
So if Willie Winfield, Sonny Til, Gerald Gregory, Rudy West and TonyWilliams got together and made a group harmony recording they would not
be an "actual" vocal group?
They would be.
Billy Joel was alive when he made his vocal group record of "The Longest Time."
so why when Al Cleveland, J.R. Bailey, Harold Johnson, ArthurCrier and Curtis Lee got together and recorded "Pretty Little Angel
Eyes" why were they NOT a vocal group?
I see you haven't replied to my statement that many of the records youbelieve are vocal group records, such as The Longest Time and every AI
generated record, are merely IMITATIONS of vocal group records. What doyou have to say to this?
It's too absurd to answer, but if you insist, they are all vocal group records. Lots of vocal group records are imitations of previous vocalHow they sound is the only thing that matters. Everything else is
group records. That in no way invalidates them as vocal group records.
irrelevant IMO.
Billy Joel was alive when he made his vocal group record of "The LongestTime."
But he is only one person. Where I live, a group means three or more.
so why when Al Cleveland, J.R. Bailey, Harold Johnson, ArthurCrier and Curtis Lee got together and recorded "Pretty Little Angel
Eyes" why were they NOT a vocal group?
This is a tough call. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I lean to a
vocal group backing Curtis Lee.
Enough questions. This is what you always do when you're losing a
debate. Raise question after question to obfuscate the point.
I see you haven't replied to my statement that many of the records you believe are vocal group records, such as The Longest Time and every AI generated record, are merely IMITATIONS of vocal group records. What do
you have to say to this?
Billy Joel was alive when he made his vocal group record of "The LongestTime."
But he is only one person. Where I live, a group means three or more.
so why when Al Cleveland, J.R. Bailey, Harold Johnson, ArthurCrier and Curtis Lee got together and recorded "Pretty Little Angel
Eyes" why were they NOT a vocal group?
This is a tough call. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I lean to a
vocal group backing Curtis Lee.
Per Bruce in reply to me:
I see you haven't replied to my statement that many of the records youbelieve are vocal group records, such as The Longest Time and every AI
generated record, are merely IMITATIONS of vocal group records. What doyou have to say to this?
It's too absurd to answer, but if you insist, they are all vocal grouprecords. Lots of vocal group records are imitations of previous vocal
group records. That in no way invalidates them as vocal group records.How they sound is the only thing that matters. Everything else is
irrelevant IMO.
The big word being opinion. Your opinion is based on what the final
product sounds like. Mine is based on the English language and the
facts.
Let me cut through your obfuscation and hundreds of questions with a
simple definition of what a vocal group recording is. After this, there
will be no more response to your obfuscations and hundreds of questions.
A vocal group record is a recording by a self contained group of three
or more live and present singers.
After this, there
will be no more response to your obfuscations and hundreds of questions.
After this, there
will be no more response to your obfuscations and hundreds of questions.
Lots of people can sometimes believe in the weirdest things as the
results of tomorrows US election may show in the next day or two
On Mon, 4 Nov 2024 18:56:33 +0000, bbug wrote:
Billy Joel was alive when he made his vocal group record of "The LongestTime."
But he is only one person. Where I live, a group means three or more.
so why when Al Cleveland, J.R. Bailey, Harold Johnson, ArthurCrier and Curtis Lee got together and recorded "Pretty Little Angel
Eyes" why were they NOT a vocal group?
This is a tough call. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I lean to a
vocal group backing Curtis Lee.
So if Willie Winfield made a record along with Sonny Til, Alexander
Sharp, Johnny Reed and George Nelson, that would not be a vocal group
record, but rather Willie Winfield backed by the Orioles. I don't get
why that would be different than Willie making a record with Rudy West, Gerald Gregory, Tony Williams and Sonny Til, which you sa IS a vocal
group record.
I guess you are claiming that if the rest of the guys there happen to
also be the members of a different vocal group, that this new assemblage
of members can't also be a vocal group?
Suppose Willie is on the record but is not the lead singer. Does it then become a vocal group record?
How about if Curtis Lee sang on "Pretty Little Angel Eyes," but did not
sing lead. The producer Phil Spector wanted an extra voice in the group. Would it then be a vocal group record?
If the record as it was recorded was issued as by the Halos rather than
as by Curtis Lee, would it then be a vocal group record?
By the way, some of the Spector records by the Crystals and Ronettes
also included other voices besides members of the group. Are they still
vocal group records?
Lots of vocal group records are imitations of previous vocal
group records. That in no way invalidates them as vocal group records.
In this debate, Bruce has not been obfuscating
From RWC:
Lots of vocal group records are imitations of previous vocal
group records. That in no way invalidates them as vocal group records.
In this debate, Bruce has not been obfuscating
Apparently, you prefer to wax eloquently without knowing the meaning of >obfuscating. Obfuscate means to make something less clear and harder to >understand, especially intentionally.
What else would you call Bruce's introducing live vocal groups imitating >other live vocal groups into a debate when it's obvious not an issue?
Or bombarding us with questions after questions after questions which can >call up many interpretations and make it extremely difficult to
concentrate on the point at hand?
I suggest you keep your misguided defense of Bruce by insulting Roger
and me to yourself.
It wouldn't be so bad if you had even the faintest clue as to what
you are talking about.
By the way, when I stated that you and Bruce make a good team, I
expected him to disavow you immediately, but he has apparently been too
busy obfuscating to realize he's now in bed with the group's resident
kook.
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 11:17:57 +0000, bbug2@optonline.net (bbug) wrote:
From RWC:Gee, Bill, you seem quite upset. It's was your brusque and imperious rejection of Bruce's debating points which prompted my initial response.
Lots of vocal group records are imitations of previous vocal
group records. That in no way invalidates them as vocal group records.
In this debate, Bruce has not been obfuscating
Apparently, you prefer to wax eloquently without knowing the meaning of >>obfuscating. Obfuscate means to make something less clear and harder to >>understand, especially intentionally.
I want to reiterate that Bruce was not obfuscating. If Bill believes
Bruce was intentionally making the debate less clear, I think that
is a serious misunderstanding.
What else would you call Bruce's introducing live vocal groups imitating >>other live vocal groups into a debate when it's obvious not an issue?
The possessive form "Bruces" is not necessary here. "Bruce introducing"
is clearer and grammatically correct. "Obviously" is the correct adverb
form to modify the verb phrase "not an issue."
Or bombarding us with questions after questions after questions which can >>call up many interpretations and make it extremely difficult to
concentrate on the point at hand?
Bill, it seems like you might be misunderstanding the situation, which
could be affecting your comprehension.
I suggest you keep your misguided defense of Bruce by insulting Roger
and me to yourself.
People who try to crudely suppress their opponents, like you,
Bill, can be described as domineering or authoritarian - someone who
seeks to control the conversation through bullying (aggressive behavior intended to *belittle* or overpower their opponent).
Bill, it seems like you're trying to involve Roger in this complex
situation. Let's try to keep the focus on the main points of the debate.
It wouldn't be so bad if you had even the faintest clue as to what
you are talking about.
Bill, obviously you're very upset (like Trump at his rallies).
By the way, when I stated that you and Bruce make a good team, I
expected him to disavow you immediately, but he has apparently been too >>busy obfuscating to realize he's now in bed with the group's resident
kook.
I'd rather be considered a kook, if that's true, than be someone like
you, Bill, who struggles with comprehension and self-esteem issues.
Neither of you two really strange bedfellows pushing these often
ridiculous revisionist ideas have so far explained clearly how or why
they weren't expressed in even the TEENIEST SLIGHTEST form at the time
of the two Vocal Group battles (and saying the contests were compiled
under "my rules" is a copout since I remember saying more than once that operating suggestions in all of them were welcome)
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 14:35:32 +0000, Roger wrote:
Neither of you two really strange bedfellows pushing these often
ridiculous revisionist ideas have so far explained clearly how or why
they weren't expressed in even the TEENIEST SLIGHTEST form at the time
of the two Vocal Group battles (and saying the contests were compiled
under "my rules" is a copout since I remember saying more than once that
operating suggestions in all of them were welcome)
I've already explained that I knew that including all vocal group
records according to my methods would just be way too much work for you.
Same reason that I did not bring it up when George and I did the Relic Surveys. I was the one who was doing the work involved to come up with
the eligible records. It was very time consuming already with only
listing things that we BY groups. It would have taken forever to come up
with every record from that year that featured vocal group harmony.
By the way, your vocal group battles included "Double Crossing Blues" by Little Esther and the Robins, which you would now say would not be a
vocal group record under your rules, so who is the revisionist here?
It also included these other items which you would now say are not vocal group records.
Joe Weaver & The Don Juans -- Baby I Love You So
Little Esther & The Dominoes -- The Deacon Moves In
Lil Greenwood & The Four Jacks -- Grandpa Can Boogie Too
Dinah Washington & The Ravens -- Out In The Cold Again
Little Esther & The Dominoes -- Heart To Heart
Savannah Churchill & The Four Tunes -- I Want To Cry
Dinah Washington & The Ravens -- Hey Good Lookin'
Savannah Churchill & The Four Tunes -- Time Out For Tears
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 15:32:15 +0000, Bruce wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 14:35:32 +0000, Roger wrote:
Neither of you two really strange bedfellows pushing these often
ridiculous revisionist ideas have so far explained clearly how or why
they weren't expressed in even the TEENIEST SLIGHTEST form at the time
of the two Vocal Group battles (and saying the contests were compiled
under "my rules" is a copout since I remember saying more than once that >>> operating suggestions in all of them were welcome)
I've already explained that I knew that including all vocal group
records according to my methods would just be way too much work for you.
Same reason that I did not bring it up when George and I did the Relic
Surveys. I was the one who was doing the work involved to come up with
the eligible records. It was very time consuming already with only
listing things that we BY groups. It would have taken forever to come up
with every record from that year that featured vocal group harmony.
By the way, your vocal group battles included "Double Crossing Blues" by
Little Esther and the Robins, which you would now say would not be a
vocal group record under your rules, so who is the revisionist here?
It also included these other items which you would now say are not vocal
group records.
Joe Weaver & The Don Juans -- Baby I Love You So
Little Esther & The Dominoes -- The Deacon Moves In
Lil Greenwood & The Four Jacks -- Grandpa Can Boogie Too
Dinah Washington & The Ravens -- Out In The Cold Again
Little Esther & The Dominoes -- Heart To Heart
Savannah Churchill & The Four Tunes -- I Want To Cry
Dinah Washington & The Ravens -- Hey Good Lookin'
Savannah Churchill & The Four Tunes -- Time Out For Tears
These are all fringe items I don't deny which is all the more reason why
To show I will freely admit my fuck ups one BIG one is that I guess I
should have included "Double Crossing Blues" in my 1950 list in the
current series---and at #1 I think :-(
I don't understand how you didn't push at the time for the inclusion of
more such examples.
On Mon, 4 Nov 2024 18:56:33 +0000, bbug wrote:
Billy Joel was alive when he made his vocal group record of "The LongestTime."
But he is only one person. Where I live, a group means three or more.
so why when Al Cleveland, J.R. Bailey, Harold Johnson, ArthurCrier and Curtis Lee got together and recorded "Pretty Little Angel
Eyes" why were they NOT a vocal group?
This is a tough call. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I lean to a
vocal group backing Curtis Lee.
So if Willie Winfield made a record along with Sonny Til, Alexander
Sharp, Johnny Reed and George Nelson, that would not be a vocal group
record, but rather Willie Winfield backed by the Orioles. I don't get
why that would be different than Willie making a record with Rudy West, Gerald Gregory, Tony Williams and Sonny Til, which you sa IS a vocal
group record.
I guess you are claiming that if the rest of the guys there happen to
also be the members of a different vocal group, that this new assemblage
of members can't also be a vocal group?
Suppose Willie is on the record but is not the lead singer. Does it then become a vocal group record?
How about if Curtis Lee sang on "Pretty Little Angel Eyes," but did not
sing lead. The producer Phil Spector wanted an extra voice in the group. Would it then be a vocal group record?
If the record as it was recorded was issued as by the Halos rather than
as by Curtis Lee, would it then be a vocal group record?
By the way, some of the Spector records by the Crystals and Ronettes
also included other voices besides members of the group. Are they still
vocal group records?
Enough with the "if's" !!!!
This is how us scientists debate.
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 19:41:01 +0000, Roger wrote:
Enough with the "if's" !!!!
This is how us scientists debate. We propose a bunch of "what ifs" so we
are able to look at the issue from all sides and consider every
possibility. There is no room for emotion.
Waiting to hear why you see Little Esther and the Robins differently
than you see Elvis Presley and the Jordanaires. Why is Double Crossing
Blues" a "vocal group record," but "Love Me" not a vocal group record?
This is not an if.
Bruce wrote:
This is how us scientists debate.
So now you bestow the title of scientist upon yourself.
After this, there will be no more response to your obfuscations and
hundreds of questions.
Bruce wrote:
This is how us scientists debate.
So now you bestow the title of scientist upon yourself. Where did you
get your degree and in what subject? Per Wikipedia:
Natural science can be divided into two main branches: life science and physical science. Life science is alternatively known as biology, and physical science is subdivided into branches: physics, chemistry, earth science, and astronomy. Here are lists of professions in both branches: Physical Science
Chemist
Agrochemist
Analytical chemist
Astrochemist
Atmospheric chemist
Biophysical chemist
Clinical chemist
Computational chemist
Electrochemist
Femtochemist
Geochemist
Green chemist
Chemical laboratory technician
Inorganic chemist
Medicinal chemist
Nuclear chemist
Organic chemist
Organometallic chemist
Pharmacologist
Physical chemist
Quantum chemist
Solid-state chemist
Stereochemist
Structural chemist
Supramolecular chemist
Theoretical chemist
Thermochemist
Earth scientist
Astrogeologist
Biogeochemist
Climatologist
Dendroarchaeologist
Dendrologist
Edaphologist
Gemologist
Geoarchaeologist
Geobiologist
Geographer
Geologist
Geomicrobiologist
Geomorphologist
Geophysicist
Glaciologist
Hydrogeologist
Hydrologist
Hydrometeorologist
Limnologist
Meteorologist
Mineralogist
Oceanographer
Paleoclimatologist
Paleoecologist
Paleogeologist
Paleoseismologist
Palynologist
Petrologist
Sedimentologist
Seismologist
Speleologist
Volcanologist
Physicist
Acoustician
Agrophysicist
Astrophysicist
Atmospheric physicist
Atomic physicist
Biological physicist
Chemical physicist
Computational physicist
Cosmologist
Condensed-matter physicist
Engineering physicist
Material physicist
Molecular physicist
Nuclear physicist
Particle physicist
Plasma physicist
Polymer physicist
Psychophysicist
Quantum physicist
Theoretical physicist
Life science
Main article: List of life sciences
Biologist
Acarologist
Aerobiologist
Anatomist
Arachnologist
Bacteriologist
Bioclimatologist
Biogeographer
Bioinformatician
Biotechnologist
Bioarcheologist
Biochemist
Biolinguist
Biological anthropologist
Biophysicist
Biostatistician
Botanist
Cell biologist
Chronobiologist
Cognitive biologist
Computational biologist
Conservation biologist
Dendrochronologist
Developmental biologist
Ecologist
Electrophysiologist
Embryologist
Endocrinologist
Entomologist
Epidemiologist
Ethologist
Evolutionary biologist
Geneticist
Hematologist
Herbchronologist
Herpetologist
Histologist
Human behavioral ecologist
Human biologist
Ichnologist
Ichthyologist
Immunologist
Integrative biologist
Lepidopterist
Mammalogist
Marine biologist
Medical biologist
Microbiologist
Molecular biologist
Mycologist
Neuroendocrinologist
Neuroscientist
Neuropsychologist
Ornithologist
Osteologist
Paleoanthropologist
Paleobotanist
Paleobiologist
Paleontologist
Paleopathologist
Parasitologist
Pathologist
Physiologist
Phytopathologist
Population biologist
Primatologist
Quantum biologist
Radiobiologist
Sclerochronologist
Sociobiologist
Structural biologist
Theoretical biologist
Toxicologist
Virologist
Wildlife biologist
Zoologist
And more for other sciences:
Social science
Anthropologist
Archaeologist
Cultural anthropologist
Linguistic anthropologist
Communication scientist
Criminologist
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Management scientist
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Psychologist
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Clinical psychologist
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Experimental psychologist
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Medical psychologist
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Formal science
Computer scientist
Computational scientist
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Mathematician[36]
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Analyst
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Logician
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Operations research and management analysts
Physician scientist
Interdisciplinary
Materials scientist
Mathematical biologist
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Mathematical economist
Mathematical physicist
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I don't see umpire or referee listed.
I am not responding to your obfuscations or questions, just to a blatant puffing out of your chest. Like something Trump does.
I am not responding to your obfuscations or questions, just to a blatant puffing out of your chest. Like something Trump does.
After this, there will be no more response to your obfuscations andhundreds of questions.
Check the video of this vocal group record by the Jordanaires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1ExzBOUPk
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 4:07:21 +0000, Bruce wrote:
Check the video of this vocal group record by the Jordanaires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1ExzBOUPk
We've really reached the barrel bottom on this one haven't we?
Because some guy chooses to attribute his YouTube post that way does not
make it so.
"Love Me Tender" was a song presented to Elvis
"Love Me Tender" was a song recorded by Elvis
"Love Me Tender" was a song marketed as by Elvis
"Love Me Tender" was a song that charted by Elvis
"Love Me Tender" was a song that sold several million copies worldwide
by Elvis
Sure the Jordanaires back Elvis on the number and feature on the song.
But they are no more the PRINCIPAL artist(s) here than The Pied Pipers
were back in the 40's when backing on those early Sinatra records.
Remind me to mail you over a fresh bunch of straws to cling to
