My favorite Charlie Feathers record is "When You Come Around," on which
he is backed by The Marigolds, a legitimate vocal group. But I don't
regard it as a "vocal group record." This has nothing to do with what
it says on the label, but more to do with the fact that Charlie Feathers
not only isn't a part of *this* vocal group, but also isn't a part of
*any* vocal group. He's not singing *lead*, he's just singing, and the
group is backing him. I feel the same way about "Betty Jean" by Chuck
Berry, for example.

If he was backed by the London Philharmonic, it wouldn't be an
instrumental, would it? Okay, then, if he's *backed* by the Ecuadors
it's not a vocal group record.

"I Know I Know" by Pookie Hudson *is* a vocal group record, because even
though he is backed by a different group, he is singing as if they were
the Spaniels. He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing
while the group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And in fact I saw him sing it live in later years *with* the
Spaniels--almost all original members.

NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IT SAYS ON THE LABEL. Lowell Fulson with an "N"
at the end and Fenton Robinson with no "I" in his first name, that's how
I roll.

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On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

My favorite Charlie Feathers record is "When You Come Around," on which
he is backed by The Marigolds, a legitimate vocal group. But I don't
regard it as a "vocal group record." This has nothing to do with what
it says on the label, but more to do with the fact that Charlie Feathers
not only isn't a part of *this* vocal group, but also isn't a part of
*any* vocal group. He's not singing *lead*, he's just singing, and the
group is backing him. I feel the same way about "Betty Jean" by Chuck
Berry, for example.

If he was backed by the London Philharmonic, it wouldn't be an
instrumental, would it? Okay, then, if he's *backed* by the Ecuadors
it's not a vocal group record.

What an awful comp. An instrumental has nothing to do with anything
other than that there's no singing and just instruments playing. You've
already agreed that "I Know, I Know" is a vocal group record despite no
mention of any vocal group on the label.

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On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing while the
group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And so is Elvis on several songs with the Jordanaires, like "Love Me"
and "Don't" and "That's When Your Heartaches Begin" and a bunch of
others, especially his Gospel things like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMD8d7oUjxw

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On 11/2/2024 2:22 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing while the
group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And so is Elvis on several songs with the Jordanaires, like "Love Me"
and "Don't" and "That's When Your Heartaches Begin" and a bunch of
others, especially his Gospel things like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMD8d7oUjxw

----------
Do you have any evidence that Elvis was ever part of a vocal group?

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On 11/2/2024 2:18 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

My favorite Charlie Feathers record is "When You Come Around," on which
he is backed by The Marigolds, a legitimate vocal group.  But I don't
regard it as a "vocal group record."  This has nothing to do with what
it says on the label, but more to do with the fact that Charlie Feathers
not only isn't a part of *this* vocal group, but also isn't a part of
*any* vocal group.  He's not singing *lead*, he's just singing, and the
group is backing him.  I feel the same way about "Betty Jean" by Chuck
Berry, for example.

If he was backed by the London Philharmonic, it wouldn't be an
instrumental, would it?  Okay, then, if he's *backed* by the Ecuadors
it's not a vocal group record.

What an awful comp. An instrumental has nothing to do with anything
other than that there's no singing and just instruments playing. You've already agreed that "I Know, I Know" is a vocal group record despite no mention of any vocal group on the label.

-----------
My point is that there's a difference between singing lead *in* a group,
and singing solo, *accompanied by* a group. Doesn't matter who the
group is or what the stupidass label says.

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Diane wrote:

"Artist"not only isn't a part of *this* vocal group, but also isn't a
part of
*any* vocal group

A very worthwhile distinction, one to which I also ascribe, but just
failed to articulate.

According to Bruce, a vocal group record doesn't need to be self
contained, just have a vocal group on it.

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On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 20:03:20 +0000, DianeE wrote:

On 11/2/2024 2:22 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing while the
group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And so is Elvis on several songs with the Jordanaires, like "Love Me"
and "Don't" and "That's When Your Heartaches Begin" and a bunch of
others, especially his Gospel things like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMD8d7oUjxw

----------
Do you have any evidence that Elvis was ever part of a vocal group?

You don't have to be in a vocal group to make a vocal group record. Like
this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-XP4cCKPk

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 0:03:38 +0000, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 20:03:20 +0000, DianeE wrote:

On 11/2/2024 2:22 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing while the
group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And so is Elvis on several songs with the Jordanaires, like "Love Me"
and "Don't" and "That's When Your Heartaches Begin" and a bunch of
others, especially his Gospel things like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMD8d7oUjxw

----------
Do you have any evidence that Elvis was ever part of a vocal group?

You don't have to be in a vocal group to make a vocal group record. Like
this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-XP4cCKPk

The Haloes (backing Curtis Lee here) were a quite seperate quartet from
NYC backing Lee (from Arizona) on his big hit. It presumably was the
Dunes label who put them together to record "Pretty Little Angel Eyes"

So yet again we have a VOCALIST BEING BACKED BY A SEPERATE GROUP !!!!!!

Exactly like the case of Elvis and the Jordanaires.

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 07:09:54 +0000, mariabus@blueyonder.co.uk (Roger)
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 0:03:38 +0000, Bruce wrote:

You don't have to be in a vocal group to make a vocal group record. Like
this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-XP4cCKPk

The Haloes (backing Curtis Lee here) were a quite seperate quartet from
NYC backing Lee (from Arizona) on his big hit. It presumably was the
Dunes label who put them together to record "Pretty Little Angel Eyes"

So yet again we have a VOCALIST BEING BACKED BY A SEPERATE GROUP !!!!!!

SO WHAT?

Roger, you have an elitist fixation that the vocalist needs to be a
member of the vocal backing group, which new non-pedantic fans of
50s/cusp vocal group music will not appreciate, or relate to, at all.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a
duck. "Pretty Little Angel Eyes" blatantly is a vocal group record from
the perspective of non-purist ordinary folk.

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 12:40:41 +0000, RWC wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 07:09:54 +0000, mariabus@blueyonder.co.uk (Roger)
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 0:03:38 +0000, Bruce wrote:

You don't have to be in a vocal group to make a vocal group record. Like >>> this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-XP4cCKPk

The Haloes (backing Curtis Lee here) were a quite seperate quartet from
NYC backing Lee (from Arizona) on his big hit. It presumably was the
Dunes label who put them together to record "Pretty Little Angel Eyes"

So yet again we have a VOCALIST BEING BACKED BY A SEPERATE GROUP !!!!!!

SO WHAT?

Roger, you have an elitist fixation that the vocalist needs to be a
member of the vocal backing group, which new non-pedantic fans of
50s/cusp vocal group music will not appreciate, or relate to, at all.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a
duck. "Pretty Little Angel Eyes" blatantly is a vocal group record from
the perspective of non-purist ordinary folk.

How much is Bruce paying you? :-)

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 7:09:54 +0000, Roger wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 0:03:38 +0000, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 20:03:20 +0000, DianeE wrote:

On 11/2/2024 2:22 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 17:09:23 +0000, DianeE wrote:

He is singing as the lead of that group, not just singing while the
group backs him up (as if they were musical instruments).

And so is Elvis on several songs with the Jordanaires, like "Love Me"
and "Don't" and "That's When Your Heartaches Begin" and a bunch of
others, especially his Gospel things like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMD8d7oUjxw

----------
Do you have any evidence that Elvis was ever part of a vocal group?

You don't have to be in a vocal group to make a vocal group record. Like
this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-XP4cCKPk

The Haloes (backing Curtis Lee here) were a quite seperate quartet from
NYC backing Lee (from Arizona) on his big hit. It presumably was the
Dunes label who put them together to record "Pretty Little Angel Eyes"

So yet again we have a VOCALIST BEING BACKED BY A SEPERATE GROUP !!!!!!

Exactly like the case of Elvis and the Jordanaires.

Curtis Lee and the Halos were put together to make a "vocal Group"
record by the producer, Phil Spector. A "Vocal Group" record is not the
same thing as a record BY A VOCAL GROUP.

Pookie Hudson was backed by a separate group on "I Know, I Know," but
Diane agrees that it's a vocal group record. I don't see why you are so
hung up on legalities, commerce, and what it happens to say on the
record label. Those decisions are not made for musical reasons. Whether
or not a piece of music is a "Vocal Group" recording should be based
ONLY on what it sounds like.

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Can a record that you say is not a vocal group record, like "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes," be nevertheless classified as a "doo wop" record?

Check # 30 on this list:

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_doowop-songs-x.html

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Bruce wrote:

Can a record that you say is not a vocal group record, like "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes," be nevertheless classified as a "doo wop" record?

That's a question I avoided asking because it opens up a whole new can
of worms. I'd say yes, as there are a number of recordings by duos that
I consider Doo-Wop.

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 19:11:49 +0000, Bruce wrote:

Can a record that you say is not a vocal group record, like "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes," be nevertheless classified as a "doo wop" record?

Check # 30 on this list:

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_doowop-songs-x.html

Does "doowop" automatically = vocal group? I don't consider "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes" a vocal group record for reasons already stated.
Whether it's a "doowop" or not depends how you define that word (which
of course opens up a whole new can of..........)

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 22:01:39 +0000, Roger wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 19:11:49 +0000, Bruce wrote:

Can a record that you say is not a vocal group record, like "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes," be nevertheless classified as a "doo wop" record?

Check # 30 on this list:

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_doowop-songs-x.html

Does "doowop" automatically = vocal group? I don't consider "Pretty
Little Angel Eyes" a vocal group record for reasons already stated.
Whether it's a "doowop" or not depends how you define that word (which
of course opens up a whole new can of..........)

So "Pretty Little Angel Eyes" you say is not a vocal group record merely because the lead singer is not an official member of the Halos. I say
that legalities and who is officially a member of a particular group
means nothing as to whether or not this particular recording is a "vocal
group" record. All that matters is what the recording sounds like and
whether or not there are 3 or more voices on the record singing
together. Whether or not any of them ever see each other again, or
become part of a continuing group that sings together regularly means
nothing as far as classifying if it's a vocal group recording or not.

When the recording was made it was made by a vocal group that consisted
of a group of men. Who they were, or what their name was, or who they
usually sang with, or whether or not any of the people involved sang
more than one part by overdubbing is not material to the issue IMO.

If Sonny Til, Willie Winfield, Gerald Gregory, Rudy West and Tony
Williams made a recording together where they all sang carious parts in harmony, it would be a vocal group record (or recording if you prefer).
The fact that they were not singing together regularly as a named unit,
or that they would never sing together again, is not a factor in
classifying this one particular recording as a vocal group recording.

Let me ask you, when John Lennon, Eric Clapton, Keith Richards and Mitch Mitchell got together on DEC 8, 1968 for a one time live performance of
"Yer Blues" in 1968, were they not a rock band? They even had a name for
the band, they called them selves The Dirty Mac.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faOIN8SOkCA

Whether they had a name, or not, they were a band for that day, just as
the men who snag on "Pretty Little Angel Eyes" were a vocal group on the
day that they recorded the track. There's no rule saying that a vocal
group is only a vocal group if they perform regularly together under a
known lasting name.

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On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 16:37:33 +0000, mariabus@blueyonder.co.uk (Roger)
wrote:

How much is Bruce paying you? :-)

Unfortunately, the agreement includes a confidentiality clause. :-)

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