On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected
to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders
had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being
cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or
graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in
the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in
Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green
card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I
had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after
her US studies.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected
to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders
had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being
cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or
graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in
the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in >Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green
card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I
had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after
her US studies.)

Of course it's shocking. If the student is no longer studying or
graduated, there is no reason to automatically deport him and I suggest
that the law isn't to be read that way. Rather, student visas clearly
allowed a generous transition period.

The university is required to report who is enrolled and who is no
longer enrolled. If the visa holder is no longer a student, then the
visa holder cannot travel outside the United States then return, for the
visa holder no longer holds a visa valid for re-entry.

It doesn't make sense that Trump had to cancel these visas anyway. If
the student is no longer enrolled, the visa cannot be renewed. As it had already expired, it didn't require cancellation.

But the moment of graduation didn't change the foreign national's status
from student to illegally present.

The time present in the United States on a student visa didn't have
short end points like a tourist visa.

The student visa issue is one of those utter bullshit problems with the
visa system. We are talking about foreign nationals with an American
college education. Hell, some even obtain doctorates. How the hell are
these people undesireable aliens? How is someone with a doctorate not
qualified to work?

Of all the people who should have been allowed to immigrate easily, it
should be those who completed American educational requirements.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On May 18, 2025 at 11:20:31 AM PDT, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected >>> to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders
had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being
cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or
graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in
the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in
Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green
card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I
had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after
her US studies.)

Of course it's shocking. If the student is no longer studying or
graduated, there is no reason to automatically deport him

That's a visa overstay. If you've graduated, you're no longer a student so
your student visa has expired. You need to either apply for some other permit to be in the U.S. or go home. Just ignoring it and continuing to live here makes you an illegal alien.

But the moment of graduation didn't change the foreign national's status
from student to illegally present.

The person, knowing graduation was approaching, should have contacted USCIS
and made an application for some other permit to remain in the United States, either a work visa, green card, or some other program.

The time present in the United States on a student visa didn't have
short end points like a tourist visa.

The student visa issue is one of those utter bullshit problems with the
visa system. We are talking about foreign nationals with an American
college education. Hell, some even obtain doctorates. How the hell are
these people undesireable aliens?

No one said they're undesirable but if they intentionally or negligently
become visa overstays, then there are consequences for that.

Just as you can have a spotless driving record for 30 years but if you fail to renew your driver license before it expires, you're committing a crime if you keep driving under a no longer valid license.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

May 18, 2025 at 11:20:31 AM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected >>>>to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders
had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being >>>cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or >>>graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in
the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in >>>Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green >>>card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I >>>had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after
her US studies.)

Of course it's shocking. If the student is no longer studying or
graduated, there is no reason to automatically deport him

That's a visa overstay. If you've graduated, you're no longer a student so >your student visa has expired. You need to either apply for some other permit >to be in the U.S. or go home. Just ignoring it and continuing to live here >makes you an illegal alien.

Yes, a student visa is a time-limited visa and the visa holder has to
remain a student in order to renew it, but the visa does not expire the
instant of graduation or end of term. There is a reasonable transition
period. If the student takes summer off, which is typical for
undergrads, he's not off visa between his freshman and sophomore years.

Because the visa expires at time definite, then Trump cancelling student
visas is bullshit. The only reason to cancel a visa is if the student
commits an act that makes him undesireable, like a felony.

But the moment of graduation didn't change the foreign national's status >>from student to illegally present.

The person, knowing graduation was approaching, should have contacted USCIS >and made an application for some other permit to remain in the United States, >either a work visa, green card, or some other program.

That's my point! A foreign student, even with a doctorate from an American university, cannot simply apply to immigrate. If they want to immigrate,
they get in the back of the line with everyone else lacking an American education.

A work visa is a sponsored visa; the employer applies. That's not an
immigrant visa.

I'm not misstating the law here, am I?

The time present in the United States on a student visa didn't have
short end points like a tourist visa.

The student visa issue is one of those utter bullshit problems with the >>visa system. We are talking about foreign nationals with an American >>college education. Hell, some even obtain doctorates. How the hell are >>these people undesireable aliens?

No one said they're undesirable but if they intentionally or negligently >become visa overstays, then there are consequences for that.

US law has put them in the undesireable category because they are NOT
put into one of the categories for desireable aliens whose green card applications aren't subject to decades long waiting periods and national quotas.

Just as you can have a spotless driving record for 30 years but if you
fail to renew your driver license before it expires, you're committing
a crime if you keep driving under a no longer valid license.

I'm not seeing the analogy. Drivers who commit that infraction probably
had an unpaid court fine or failure to complete drunk driving programs.
If the driver solves all of the problems that made him ineligible to
renew his driver's license, it's then straightforward to do so, and if
he shows up in court on the charge of driving on an expired license with
the renewed license, the judge will probably dismiss the charge.

We just don't have a provision that puts students on track for an
immigration visa if they stay on track to graduate or complete their
graduate program.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On May 18, 2025 at 12:41:06 PM PDT, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

May 18, 2025 at 11:20:31 AM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected >>>>> to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders
had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being
cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or
graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in
the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in
Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green
card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I >>>> had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after
her US studies.)

Of course it's shocking. If the student is no longer studying or
graduated, there is no reason to automatically deport him

That's a visa overstay. If you've graduated, you're no longer a student so >> your student visa has expired. You need to either apply for some other permit
to be in the U.S. or go home. Just ignoring it and continuing to live here >> makes you an illegal alien.

Yes, a student visa is a time-limited visa and the visa holder has to
remain a student in order to renew it, but the visa does not expire the instant of graduation or end of term. There is a reasonable transition period. If the student takes summer off, which is typical for
undergrads, he's not off visa between his freshman and sophomore years.

That's because he's still enrolled in the university. Once graduation occurs, that's no longer the case.

More to the point, graduation isn't something that happens unexpectedly out of the blue. A student knows when he/she is graduating months in advance and should make the appropriate arrangements for post-graduation status ahead of time.

Because the visa expires at time definite, then Trump cancelling student visas is bullshit. The only reason to cancel a visa is if the student
commits an act that makes him undesireable, like a felony.

But the moment of graduation didn't change the foreign national's status >>> from student to illegally present.

The person, knowing graduation was approaching, should have contacted USCIS >> and made an application for some other permit to remain in the United States,
either a work visa, green card, or some other program.

That's my point! A foreign student, even with a doctorate from an American university, cannot simply apply to immigrate. If they want to immigrate,
they get in the back of the line with everyone else lacking an American education.

A work visa is a sponsored visa; the employer applies. That's not an immigrant visa.

I'm not misstating the law here, am I?

The time present in the United States on a student visa didn't have
short end points like a tourist visa.

The student visa issue is one of those utter bullshit problems with the
visa system. We are talking about foreign nationals with an American
college education. Hell, some even obtain doctorates. How the hell are
these people undesireable aliens?

No one said they're undesirable but if they intentionally or negligently
become visa overstays, then there are consequences for that.

US law has put them in the undesireable category because they are NOT
put into one of the categories for desireable aliens whose green card applications aren't subject to decades long waiting periods and national quotas.

So Congress needs to change the law. That's not relevant to someone who has graduated today and hasn't made any arrangements with the government to change their status

Just as you can have a spotless driving record for 30 years but if you
fail to renew your driver license before it expires, you're committing
a crime if you keep driving under a no longer valid license.

I'm not seeing the analogy. Drivers who commit that infraction probably
had an unpaid court fine or failure to complete drunk driving programs.

Or just didn't bother to renew it. Sometimes they renew auto-magically, sometimes they don't and you have to go into the DMV and renew in person. If you don't bother to do it when it's the latter, your spotless driving record will be of no help to you.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

May 18, 2025 at 12:41:06 PM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

May 18, 2025 at 11:20:31 AM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

Tue, 8 Apr 2025 04:35:15 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

Trump administration is revoking student visas of students not connected >>>>>>to anti-Israeli protests.

https://apnews.com/article/f1-visa-international-college-student-trump-9d4d900d328a0c205503c1178e70f1d5

I read that article and it specifically mentioned deportation orders >>>>>had been given in quite a few cases where student visas were being >>>>>cancelled after the student in question had either dropped out or >>>>>graduated.

That doesn't sound shocking to me - decades ago my mother studied in >>>>>the US on a student visa (not shocking - a Vancouver girl studying in >>>>>Seattle) and after graduation applied for and got the standard green >>>>>card. (Also not shocking as she was by then married to an American)

(One of the few things I regret is having mislaid her actual card as I >>>>>had it in my filing cabinet after her death which was 35+ years after >>>>>her US studies.)

Of course it's shocking. If the student is no longer studying or >>>>graduated, there is no reason to automatically deport him

That's a visa overstay. If you've graduated, you're no longer a
student so your student visa has expired. You need to either apply
for some other permit to be in the U.S. or go home. Just ignoring it
and continuing to live here makes you an illegal alien.

Yes, a student visa is a time-limited visa and the visa holder has to >>remain a student in order to renew it, but the visa does not expire the >>instant of graduation or end of term. There is a reasonable transition >>period. If the student takes summer off, which is typical for
undergrads, he's not off visa between his freshman and sophomore years.

That's because he's still enrolled in the university. Once graduation occurs, >that's no longer the case.

I'm not looking up the exact language but the law says something like
making reasonable progress toward graduation. If the student takes a
full year off between academic years and it's not a university-sponsored program, at some point, the visa will have expired without renewal.

More to the point, graduation isn't something that happens unexpectedly
out of the blue. A student knows when he/she is graduating months in
advance and should make the appropriate arrangements for post-graduation >status ahead of time.

All he can do is find an employer to sponsor his visa. Even H1-B won't
put him on an immigration track.

. . .

The time present in the United States on a student visa didn't have >>>>short end points like a tourist visa.

The student visa issue is one of those utter bullshit problems with the >>>>visa system. We are talking about foreign nationals with an American >>>>college education. Hell, some even obtain doctorates. How the hell are >>>>these people undesireable aliens?

No one said they're undesirable but if they intentionally or negligently >>>become visa overstays, then there are consequences for that.

US law has put them in the undesireable category because they are NOT
put into one of the categories for desireable aliens whose green card >>applications aren't subject to decades long waiting periods and national >>quotas.

So Congress needs to change the law. That's not relevant to someone who
has graduated today and hasn't made any arrangements with the government
to change their status

You may not agree with me that it should be in immigration law, but you
do agree with me that it's not in current immigration law.

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about.

. . .

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