Apologies if this doesn't show up in the thread for people, I had to
change the subject line due to an invalid character error

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 22:49:04 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/4/2024 4:41 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

On 12/4/24 13:11, Lynn McGuire wrote:

On 12/4/2024 10:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

BCFD 36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> writes:

On 12/3/24 11:17, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:

On 12/3/24 08:40, Paul S Person wrote:


ááááActually a lot of statistics around the issue are simply
speculative as
are rumors of crimes done by Transgender people
in bathrooms belonging to any sex. Criminal men have been free
to enter women's toilets despite it being a crime.

Most of it is either political firewood (hatred/division) or
religious nutters pushing their vision of morality on the rest
of the country.

Back in the 80's, before they remodelled the facilities, one
would routinely find ladies in the men's room at the Hollywood
Bowl (just to avoid the hour-long lines for the few stalls
available in the ladies).á Nobody complained.á Nobody was
arrested.á Nobody tried to make it illegal.

I can remember seeing women in the restrooms of several sports stadiums >>>>> e.g. Stanford and Candlestick. I can also remember seeing a whole line >>>>> of men peeing under the railing and down the slope below the Stanford >>>>> stadium when there weren't enough restrooms.

No one seemed to care.

Unisex lavatories aren't uncommon in Europe and have been
for decades.

Much ado about nothing.á Speak out in public, expect criticism.

Doxing et. al. is illegal and abhorrent regardless of the target or >>>>>> the
reason behind it.

OTOH, verbal and written criticism should be expected when any
high-profile individual airs their opinion(s) on a controversial
topic.

I don't think the debate about people with Y chromosomes competing
against XX people is over yet. Consider that Serena Williams (I think) >>>>> who was #1 in women's tennis said that the #200 man in men's tennis
would beat her.

I do remember the Billy Jean King match with Bobby Riggs.

Bobby Riggs was 26 years older than Billy Jean King so it was not an
even match.
ááá https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)

Lynn

ááááRiggs took the chalenge under the impression that Billy Jean
would be easy to beat.

áááábliss

There's a more recent, and much more relevant example.

Ann Andres is a Canadian transwoman who competes in powerlifting. >Powerlifting is scored by the total weight lifted a the Squat
Bench Press, and Deadlift.

She transitioned fully 20 years ago. She doesn't have any
more testosterone than an average woman, and has been that
way for a long time.

At the August 2023 CPU Western Canadian Championship, her combined
weight lifted was 597.5 kg. The second place SuJan Gill, lifted
387.5 kg. Ann set a new Canadian Woman's record (for her weight
class). At that match, she outlifted the second place contender by 54%.

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/m/cpu/2023-08-10
gives the results of all the competitors in the competition
Filtering it by the weight class and competion (Masters 1, 40-49 age
group) there were 3 competitors.
So dominating 2 other competitors isn't that unusual
According to online discussion of the competition
1 of the other competitors was in their 3rd powerlifting event ever,
another had a hip replacement in the 12 months before the competition
and had a strongwoman competition the next weekend so was splitting
their training

So it doesn't look overly worrysome that one of 3 competitors wallops
the other 2 in that situation

In the 2023 Canadian championships she finished 3rd with a total of
565kg, 97kg lower than the winner and 60kg below the runner up

https://www.powerlifting.ca/lifter_database/external/nat_records.php?age=Open&gender=Women&style=Classic&active=Yes
gives the Canadian powerlifting records and Anne doesn't have any of
them, Brittany Schlater set them all this year

https://www.powerlifting.ca/lifter_database/external/rankings.php
shows that by total weight lifted Anne's best is the 7th best effort
in Canadian competition, 110kg below the highest total

So the idea that she's dominant and definitely has an unfair advantage
seems pretty hard to defend based on winning a provincial masters
competition with 2 other competitors.

For the top weight class, The male powerlift record is 1042 kg,
and the female 599 kg. Ann isn't in the top weight class, but
came close to beating the Woman's World Record.

The international powerlifting site links to the world records at https://goodlift.info/records.php?fd=0&ac=0&sx=W&eq=1
it gives the top weight category as 84kg+in women's competition and
120kg+ in men's

The world women's total record lift for teh 84kg+ category is 731kg,
set in 1996
in comparison the 63-69kg world record is 600kg, which is equal to
Anne's top lift when she weighed in at 116.69kg

when Anne Andres competed in the 2023 CPU Western Canadian
Championship she weighed in at 117.38 kg, so she was in the top weight
categoy in women's competition (and not much below the top weight
category in men's competion)

https://fitnessvolt.com/transgender-powerlifter-anne-andres-multiple-womens-national-world-record/

In some sports, if you let transwomen compete against
biological women, then only transwomen would be left at the top.

your evidence to support that claim is somebody dominated an age
restricted provincial event

The complete list of Olympic medals won by trans women after 20 years
of being allowed to compete


wanna see it again?

Going through puberty with male hormones creates changes to a
person's skeleton that will last them the rest of their life,
even if the hormones are removed.

got actual research that backs that up?
Because there's army research that shows that the drop in performance
after hormone treatement is more than the average gap between men and
women

and again, if there is such an advantage why haven't trans women won
any olympic medals in the 20 years they've been able to compete?

Unlike some others here, I'm happy to let transwomen and
transmen do their thing. It doesn't hurt or threaten me.

But in certain areas, transwomen are simply not on a
level playing field with biological women, and I don't
think they should compete with them.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/5/24 06:21, Mad Hamish wrote:

Apologies if this doesn't show up in the thread for people, I had to
change the subject line due to an invalid character error

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 22:49:04 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/4/2024 4:41 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

On 12/4/24 13:11, Lynn McGuire wrote:

On 12/4/2024 10:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

BCFD 36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> writes:

On 12/3/24 11:17, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:

On 12/3/24 08:40, Paul S Person wrote:


    Actually a lot of statistics around the issue are simply >>>>>>>> speculative as
are rumors of crimes done by Transgender people
in bathrooms belonging to any sex. Criminal men have been free >>>>>>>> to enter women's toilets despite it being a crime.

Most of it is either political firewood (hatred/division) or
religious nutters pushing their vision of morality on the rest
of the country.

Back in the 80's, before they remodelled the facilities, one
would routinely find ladies in the men's room at the Hollywood
Bowl (just to avoid the hour-long lines for the few stalls
available in the ladies).  Nobody complained.  Nobody was
arrested.  Nobody tried to make it illegal.

I can remember seeing women in the restrooms of several sports stadiums >>>>>> e.g. Stanford and Candlestick. I can also remember seeing a whole line >>>>>> of men peeing under the railing and down the slope below the Stanford >>>>>> stadium when there weren't enough restrooms.

No one seemed to care.

Unisex lavatories aren't uncommon in Europe and have been
for decades.

Much ado about nothing.  Speak out in public, expect criticism. >>>>>>>
Doxing et. al. is illegal and abhorrent regardless of the target or >>>>>>> the
reason behind it.

OTOH, verbal and written criticism should be expected when any
high-profile individual airs their opinion(s) on a controversial >>>>>>> topic.

I don't think the debate about people with Y chromosomes competing >>>>>> against XX people is over yet. Consider that Serena Williams (I think) >>>>>> who was #1 in women's tennis said that the #200 man in men's tennis >>>>>> would beat her.

I do remember the Billy Jean King match with Bobby Riggs.

Bobby Riggs was 26 years older than Billy Jean King so it was not an
even match.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)

Lynn

    Riggs took the chalenge under the impression that Billy Jean
would be easy to beat.

    bliss

There's a more recent, and much more relevant example.

Ann Andres is a Canadian transwoman who competes in powerlifting.
Powerlifting is scored by the total weight lifted a the Squat
Bench Press, and Deadlift.

She transitioned fully 20 years ago. She doesn't have any
more testosterone than an average woman, and has been that
way for a long time.

At the August 2023 CPU Western Canadian Championship, her combined
weight lifted was 597.5 kg. The second place SuJan Gill, lifted
387.5 kg. Ann set a new Canadian Woman's record (for her weight
class). At that match, she outlifted the second place contender by 54%.

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/m/cpu/2023-08-10
gives the results of all the competitors in the competition
Filtering it by the weight class and competion (Masters 1, 40-49 age
group) there were 3 competitors.
So dominating 2 other competitors isn't that unusual
According to online discussion of the competition
1 of the other competitors was in their 3rd powerlifting event ever,
another had a hip replacement in the 12 months before the competition
and had a strongwoman competition the next weekend so was splitting
their training

So it doesn't look overly worrysome that one of 3 competitors wallops
the other 2 in that situation

In the 2023 Canadian championships she finished 3rd with a total of
565kg, 97kg lower than the winner and 60kg below the runner up

https://www.powerlifting.ca/lifter_database/external/nat_records.php?age=Open&gender=Women&style=Classic&active=Yes
gives the Canadian powerlifting records and Anne doesn't have any of
them, Brittany Schlater set them all this year

https://www.powerlifting.ca/lifter_database/external/rankings.php
shows that by total weight lifted Anne's best is the 7th best effort
in Canadian competition, 110kg below the highest total

So the idea that she's dominant and definitely has an unfair advantage
seems pretty hard to defend based on winning a provincial masters
competition with 2 other competitors.

For the top weight class, The male powerlift record is 1042 kg,
and the female 599 kg. Ann isn't in the top weight class, but
came close to beating the Woman's World Record.

The international powerlifting site links to the world records at https://goodlift.info/records.php?fd=0&ac=0&sx=W&eq=1
it gives the top weight category as 84kg+in women's competition and
120kg+ in men's

The world women's total record lift for teh 84kg+ category is 731kg,
set in 1996
in comparison the 63-69kg world record is 600kg, which is equal to
Anne's top lift when she weighed in at 116.69kg

when Anne Andres competed in the 2023 CPU Western Canadian
Championship she weighed in at 117.38 kg, so she was in the top weight categoy in women's competition (and not much below the top weight
category in men's competion)

https://fitnessvolt.com/transgender-powerlifter-anne-andres-multiple-womens-national-world-record/

In some sports, if you let transwomen compete against
biological women, then only transwomen would be left at the top.

your evidence to support that claim is somebody dominated an age
restricted provincial event

The complete list of Olympic medals won by trans women after 20 years
of being allowed to compete

wanna see it again?

Going through puberty with male hormones creates changes to a
person's skeleton that will last them the rest of their life,
even if the hormones are removed.

got actual research that backs that up?
Because there's army research that shows that the drop in performance
after hormone treatement is more than the average gap between men and
women

and again, if there is such an advantage why haven't trans women won
any olympic medals in the 20 years they've been able to compete?

Unlike some others here, I'm happy to let transwomen and
transmen do their thing. It doesn't hurt or threaten me.

But in certain areas, transwomen are simply not on a
level playing field with biological women, and I don't
think they should compete with them.

Don't you think that depends on individuals, the
motivation that they have for athletic achievement and
training. Further we must to take into account the limits
of the individual's transgender feelings.

Dr.Bemjamin rated feeling on a scale of 0-10. At 0 is your
person who is totaly unconscious of any desire to be of the
opposite gender and at the other end the Transsexual who endures
quite a bit of pain, is neutered and lives a quiet life in
as a woman or man. I know of one happily married who with her
husband raised an adopted infant to a grown employed University
graduate.
I have also known at least one paranoid schizophrenic
who decided that her problems would be cured by Gender Reassignment
Surgery killed her self a week or so later when her problems
did not automagically go away. And others who did not realize
that if what the results of the surgery might be and were very
unhappy but went on to work in their chosen field.

Most of that experience with transgender individuals is
from my more mobile past before 1984 when my problem began to
manifest itself. Now-a-day the falling off the Right Wing people
talk about a Transgender Agenda. 40 years ago the transgender
kids I talked to had one agenda which was to get enough money
to survive on. If they had hope of doing that on a regular
basis they saved and scrimped until they might have enough
money for desired procedures such as hormone replacement
therapy and a suite of plastic surgeries. Those that had
no hope got into alcohol and drugs which are a form of
living death. Some who had the money made serious mistakes.

bliss - hobbling slowly today.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)