• Re: [gentoo-user] Re: problem formatting new 256 GB USB stick : alterna

    From Philip Webb@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 18 20:20:01 2025
    250218 Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
    I recommend an external USB case with an NVMe SSD inside.
    This may not be as compact and not as cheap,
    but they are much much much faster and probably longer-lasting
    than any USB stick, because their flash controllers are more sophisticated and the parts of higher fidelity. A not-too-cheap NVMe will do fine,
    as long as it’s TLC, not QLC flash.

    Can you explain this -- TLC/QLC -- in more detail ?

    And when used behind USB, an on-board DRAM cache is beneficial
    if you deal with many small files.

    Is that a different solution or part of the same device ?

    A good metal case with 10 Gb/s USB is c USD 20
    and the older Kioxia Exceria G2 with 500 GB and DRAM
    can be had for 35 € on the Old Continent’s market.

    That looks very interesting, if CC sells it or someone reliable via I/net.

    I use a USB 3 stick with 32 GB for daily back-ups
    & USB 2 or 3's with 64 - 128 GB for longer-term archives ;
    smaller sticks are necessary to live-system ISOs.

    USB sticks are very economical with physical space,
    but if they're becoming less reliable at the manufacturing end,
    it would make sense to try something which promises to be more reliable.

    Does anyone else comments on this or other alternative solutions ?

    Latin: the late revenge of the Romans to all Germans.

    To a native Anglophone, German looks more like someone's revenge (grin).

    --
    ========================,,============================================
    SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
    ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
    TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatcadotinterdotnet

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 18 23:25:28 2025
    On Tuesday 18 February 2025 21:18:03 Greenwich Mean Time Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2025-02-18, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
    250218 Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
    I recommend an external USB case with an NVMe SSD inside.
    This may not be as compact and not as cheap,
    but they are much much much faster and probably longer-lasting
    than any USB stick, because their flash controllers are more
    sophisticated
    and the parts of higher fidelity. A not-too-cheap NVMe will do fine,
    as long as it’s TLC, not QLC flash.

    Can you explain this -- TLC/QLC -- in more detail ?

    Tri-Level Cells, Quad-Level Cells.

    SLC (single-level cells)

    Each "cell" consists of a capacitor (constructed as a FET with an isolated-gate). In the old days, the capacitor was either chared or
    not: two levels. One bit per cell. Easy to make and reliable. If
    you want more bits, layout more cells. That means larger dies, which
    means more money.

    MLC (two-level cells)

    OK, let's also do four different charge levels! You get _two_ bits
    per cell with the same area of silicon. Harder to do and not quite as reliable, so we'll add a few extra blocks of cells and make software
    deal with blocks that don't work.

    TLC (tri-level cells)

    Hey, what if we do 8 different charge levels! Now you get 4 bits per
    cell. Even harder to do, even less reliable...


    QLC (quad-level cells)

    [I think you see where this is going]

    Yep, SLC > MLC > TLC > QLC in terms of performance, reliability, longevity and price. The phenomenal decrease in price per GB/TB over time is just that. Phenomenal. For reasons Grant explained it comes with measured reduction in reliability and longevity. Since they come with fast(er) DRAM cache which to some extent masks the underlying NAND performance, with other things being equal it makes sense to choose one with faster/larger DRAM. I think most consumer grade cards these days tend to be TLC and the cheaper ones QLC. QLC ought to outlast a conventional USB stick, but given a choice I'd opt for TLC. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Steinmetzger@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 19 13:20:02 2025
    Am Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:25:28PM +0000 schrieb Michael:

    TLC (tri-level cells)

    Hey, what if we do 8 different charge levels! Now you get 4 bits per
    cell. Even harder to do, even less reliable...


    QLC (quad-level cells)

    [I think you see where this is going]

    Yep, SLC > MLC > TLC > QLC in terms of performance, reliability, longevity and
    price. The phenomenal decrease in price per GB/TB over time is just that. Phenomenal. For reasons Grant explained it comes with measured reduction in reliability and longevity.

    Since they come with fast(er) DRAM cache which to
    some extent masks the underlying NAND performance, with other things being equal it makes sense to choose one with faster/larger DRAM.

    Small correction: the DRAM is not for fast write performance. That is what
    SLC cache is for: a small(ish) part of the TLC or QLC flash is used in SLC mode, so the SSD can ingest data faster. In time of idleness, the SSD controller starts “swapping out” the content of the SLC cache into its slow
    TLC/QLC storage.

    The DRAM’s single purpose is to hold the flash translation layer, i.e. the mapping of logical storage area to physical flash cell. Otherwise it would have to constantly be written during operation, which will make such
    operation slower, epecially when dealing with many small files.

    --
    Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
    Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

    Development aid is to give money from the poor of rich countries
    to the rich of poor countries.

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  • From Frank Steinmetzger@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 19 13:30:01 2025
    Am Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 02:10:35PM -0500 schrieb Philip Webb:

    250218 Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
    I recommend an external USB case with an NVMe SSD inside.
    This may not be as compact and not as cheap,
    but they are much much much faster and probably longer-lasting
    than any USB stick, because their flash controllers are more sophisticated and the parts of higher fidelity. A not-too-cheap NVMe will do fine,
    as long as it’s TLC, not QLC flash.

    Can you explain this -- TLC/QLC -- in more detail ?

    Grant provided a nice explanation.

    A good metal case with 10 Gb/s USB is c USD 20
    and the older Kioxia Exceria G2 with 500 GB and DRAM
    can be had for 35 € on the Old Continent’s market.

    That looks very interesting, if CC sells it or someone reliable via I/net.

    One thing I forgot to mention: AFAIK not all such enclosures support TRIM.
    If you want to get one, check the conroller chip and whether it supports
    TRIM. In the USB world, the relevant feature is called UAS/UASP (USB
    Attached SCSI).

    I use a USB 3 stick with 32 GB for daily back-ups
    & USB 2 or 3's with 64 - 128 GB for longer-term archives ;
    smaller sticks are necessary to live-system ISOs.

    Yes, sticks a nice’n small. And I also have some quite old ones between
    8 and 32 Gigs with Ventoy on them for booting purposes.

    --
    Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
    Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

    Emacs is a great operating system, which only lacks a good editor.

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 20 10:47:18 2025
    On Wednesday 19 February 2025 12:20:33 Greenwich Mean Time Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
    Am Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 02:10:35PM -0500 schrieb Philip Webb:
    250218 Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

    One thing I forgot to mention: AFAIK not all such enclosures support TRIM.
    If you want to get one, check the conroller chip and whether it supports TRIM. In the USB world, the relevant feature is called UAS/UASP (USB
    Attached SCSI).

    I was about to mention this ... as Frank explained not all external drives are built equal. TRIM is necessary if you want the performance of the drive to remain high as it gets (re)filled up and not suffer from 'write
    amplification'. This functionality is provided by the onboard controller and has to be supported by the filesystem too. It used to be the case FAT and exFAT did not make use of TRIM, or at least they did not when used with MSWindows, but I think these days all(?) filesystems use it.

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