• Re: Fwd: [gentoo-dev] Please actively drop support for Qt5 wherever pos

    From Andrey Grozin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 07:40:01 2025
    Here are some packages installed on my computer and (to various degrees) important for me which depend on Qt5

    1. x11-wm/lumina
    An excellent desktop environment. I use it for many years.
    I contacted the upstream about the possibility to port it to Qt6. They
    said that before that they have to port it from qmake to cmake (work
    underway), then they will consider the possibility of the Qt6 port.

    2. media-sound/qmmp
    An excellent misic player. The site says there is qmmp2 based on Qt6, but
    I don't see in in Gentoo.

    3. media-video/vlc
    An excellent video played. Its GUI is Qt5 based.

    4. app-text/master-pdf-editor
    The only tool for editing pdf files. I have to use it every time I check
    and correct proofs of my papers, i.e., rather often. There is no
    replacement.

    5. sci-visualization/gle
    A very useful tool, its gui is Qt5 based. I use it practically every day,
    it is essential for my main work. But I use the command-line tool;
    personally for me, GUI is not important.

    6. app-text/doxygen
    GUI is Qt5 based. Personally I don't use the GUI.

    7. sci-geosciences/qmapshack
    The best tool to support large collections of gpx tracks. There is a
    partially working Qt6 port: translations and the help system are broken in
    it. Personally I can live without translations and the help system. But stabilizing this version is out of question.

    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my
    computer. In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number
    of useful programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to
    Qt6. Are we going to throw away all this wealth?

    Andrey

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  • From Daniel Buschke@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 12:30:01 2025
    Am 02.01.25 um 12:13 schrieb Zoltan Puskas:

    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer. >> In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful
    programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we >> going to throw away all this wealth?


    Is there a timeline for killing QT5 completely or will just QT5 be stuck at the
    current version and patch level?

    That's what I thought first, too. And I think that is the question which
    has to be answered before making a decision. As long as someone, who
    could be referred to as upstream, patches QT5, I would personally be
    fine with using QT5. But once that support drops, we are talking about
    an unsupported biiiiig piece of software which you don't want to have on
    your computer.

    I searched the web and found a blog entry [1] talking about extended commercial(!) support ending mid 2025. But I don't know QT enough to
    qualify this information.

    regards
    Daniel


    [1] https://www.qt.io/blog/qt-5.15-extended-support-for-subscription-license-holders

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  • From Alexey Sokolov@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 12:30:01 2025
    02.01.2025 11:22, James Le Cuirot пишет:
    On Thu, 2025-01-02 at 03:13 -0800, Zoltan Puskas wrote:
    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer. >>> In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful >>> programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we >>> going to throw away all this wealth?

    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items that are
    likely used by a lot of users and killing all these apps is going to be painful.
    There may be some confusion here. The list includes packages like www-client/vivaldi, which already support both versions. It is also sometimes possible to simply rebuild against Qt6 with no changes but not always.


    Yeah, to make this generated list more useful, would need to filter out
    lines with suffix like `:!qt6`, or something like that.

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  • From Zoltan Puskas@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 12:20:01 2025

    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer. In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we going to throw away all this wealth?


    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items that are likely used by a lot of users and killing all these apps is going to be painful.

    Is there a timeline for killing QT5 completely or will just QT5 be stuck at the current version and patch level?

    I understand that QT5 is considered deprecated, but doesn't KDE project still maintain QT 5.15 for the time being? Can't we just keep that version?

    Even if we report bugs upstream, it may take time to port all these projects, especially the larger ones or if they are a single person project.

    Additionally there are some projects where the community's influence is limited,
    eg. Virtualbox which is controlled by Oracle.

    Looking through the list:

    app-office/kmymoney: I've been using this for accounting for more than a decade now, and I'm not sure if there are any worthy alternatives to it to be honest, nor do I want to go through a painful migration to some inferior accounting program. It's important enough for me that I would consider switching distros if
    I lost this, which would also mean I would end my involvement with Gentoo (i.e. retire from all my proxy maintained packages) as a result.

    Additional items on top of Andrey's list, that I'm familiar with (a lot of these
    I use personally too):

    app-backup/bacula: Fancy backup tool, while I don't use it personally, I know many prefer it. Breaking it would break an important data workflow for people, and while there are alternative backup solutions migrating is likely painful for
    someone with extensive backups.

    app-crypt/nitrokey-app: Isn't Nitrokey used officially by Gentoo devs?[1]
    I'm not sure it's a good idea to loos this.

    app-crypt/yubikey-manager-qt: I don't think there is an alternative UI for managing Yubikeys. I don't use it any more as I switched to the CLI tool, but again for users getting into hardware based 2-fac this is an invaluable tool.

    app-editors/okteta: I like this hex editor, it's one of the best available under
    Linux. Would be a great loss IMHO, and while I could swicth to hexedit or some similar tool, it would not be the same.

    app-emulation/virtualbox: Popular VM tool, I use this too. I'm aware for QEMU but some things just work better with Virtualbox.

    app-i18n/fcitx-qt: Anyone using Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc. will be pissed if this is gone.

    app-office/scribus: Great software, I've used it to create posters for conferences and what not. Again, not sure if there are any reasonable alternatives for this.

    dev-db/sqlitebrowser and dev-db/sqlitestudio: I've used it in the past, not essential for my workflow, but I can see why people like these.

    dev-embedded/ponyprog: Convenient piece of software to use with microcontrollers, EEPROMS, etc. Again no real alternatives with such a wide programming capability. I don't frequently need to program HW, but when I do I prefer this.

    kde-apps/marble: Awseome desktop globe and mapping program. I prefer this to using OpenStreetMap in the browser. No alternative AFAIK.

    media-gfx/krita: Great drawing program for artists, manga, etc. Not sure if there is a equal quality alternative for it. I don't use it though.

    media-gfx/luminance-hdr: HDR photo creation tool. Not sure if there are alternatives for this.

    sci-electronics/pulseview: Great for interfacing with logic analyzers (and more), works with my Saleae (both OEM and clone) nicely, but there are no alternatives for this really.

    I'm sure there are other unique pieces of software, which if lost will significantly reduce the usefulness and usability of Gentoo as a desktop OS
    and will push users away.

    Cheers,
    Zoltan

    [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Infrastructure/Nitrokey_Pro_2_guide_for_Gentoo_developers

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  • From James Le Cuirot@21:1/5 to Zoltan Puskas on Thu Jan 2 12:30:01 2025
    On Thu, 2025-01-02 at 03:13 -0800, Zoltan Puskas wrote:

    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer. In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we going to throw away all this wealth?


    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items that are
    likely used by a lot of users and killing all these apps is going to be painful.

    There may be some confusion here. The list includes packages like www-client/vivaldi, which already support both versions. It is also sometimes possible to simply rebuild against Qt6 with no changes but not always.

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  • From Lucio Sauer@21:1/5 to Andrey Grozin on Thu Jan 2 12:30:01 2025
    On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 06:36:32AM +0000, Andrey Grozin wrote:
    Here are some packages installed on my computer and (to various degrees) important for me which depend on Qt5

    4. app-text/master-pdf-editor
    The only tool for editing pdf files. I have to use it every time I check and correct proofs of my papers, i.e., rather often. There is no replacement.

    Have you tried out app-text/xournalpp yet? It allows you to annotate
    PDFs, add text and images and export the resulting xopp file back to PDF.
    I use it at university to write proofs and to proofread my friends' essays.

    --
    Lucio Sauer

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Ulrich_M=C3=BCller?=@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 12:40:01 2025
    On Wed, 01 Jan 2025, Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:

    If you recognise your package(s) in there, please drop Qt5 in favor of Qt6 aggressively. If there is no Qt6-based upstream release yet, bug upstream about it. They may not even know yet this is important.

    Can you provide a pointer to a Qt upstream page saying that Qt 5 is
    deprecated? Just for the case that the upstreams of my packages need
    further convincing.

    Ulrich

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  • From Andreas Sturmlechner@21:1/5 to Puskas on Thu Jan 2 19:47:28 2025
    On Donnerstag, 2. Jänner 2025 12:13:22 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit Zoltan Puskas wrote:
    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my
    computer.
    [...]

    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items [...]

    My message did not seek to getting everyone prematurely mourn the loss of their favorite packages. Many of those listed already have Qt6 porting work in progress but aren't quite there yet. Those will be safe.

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  • From Andreas Sturmlechner@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 19:58:31 2025
    On Donnerstag, 2. Jänner 2025 12:37:47 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit Ulrich Müller wrote:
    Can you provide a pointer to a Qt upstream page saying that Qt 5 is deprecated? Just for the case that the upstreams of my packages need
    further convincing.

    Not sure I can, without accompanying explanations: https://www.qt.io/blog/qt-offering-changes-2020

    Qt5 upstream (Qt Company) OSS support ended on 2020-12-08. Since then, bugs are only fixed if reproduced in Qt6 first, then backported. Since then, public availability of commercial 5.15 LTS releases is delayed by 1 year, including repository access for cherry-picking - this is important, see below, and affects Gentoo first and foremost.

    The last official LTS release will be this April/May: https://www.qt.io/blog/qt-5.15-extended-support-for-subscription-license-holders
    https://wiki.qt.io/Qt_5.15_Release#Release_Plan

    Public availability of this release will be *1 year later*. Some may think now, fine, updates (3 in total) until 2026! However, if a dependency/toolchain upgrade down the stack breaks Qt5 between now and March/April, to be then fixed in their final release, you will be waiting until April/May 2026 for that to be available. If it breaks later than April 2025, you will be waiting forever. In either case, you rely on downstream volunteer patchwork.

    KDE Qt5PatchCollection ultimately relies on Qt company's upstream commits as well, so don't expect any original work from there to get things fixed. In any case, there is no clear EOL date for these patches, but they *will* be drying up as there is no main KDE consumer left, I certainly know that my contributions come to an end.
    https://community.kde.org/ Qt5PatchCollection#For_how_long_will_this_be_maintained?


    Gentoo Qt Policy page:
    https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?title=Project:Qt/ Policies#Handling_different_versions_of_Qt

    Gentoo Qt migration notes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Qt/Qt6_migration_notes

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  • From Andreas Sturmlechner@21:1/5 to Sokolov on Thu Jan 2 19:57:47 2025
    On Donnerstag, 2. Jänner 2025 12:29:01 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit Alexey Sokolov wrote:
    02.01.2025 11:22, James Le Cuirot пишет:
    On Thu, 2025-01-02 at 03:13 -0800, Zoltan Puskas wrote:
    There may be some confusion here. The list includes packages like www-client/vivaldi, which already support both versions. It is also sometimes possible to simply rebuild against Qt6 with no changes but not always.
    Yeah, to make this generated list more useful, would need to filter out
    lines with suffix like `:!qt6`, or something like that.

    Where there is support for both right now, "drop support for Qt5 wherever possible" applies the cleanest.

    So the list is fine either way and will show us a clearer picture where the hold-ups are the more we sanitise those packages.

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  • From Philip Webb@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 2 20:10:02 2025
    250102 James Le Cuirot wrote:
    There may be some confusion here. The list includes packages
    like www-client/vivaldi, which already support both versions.
    It is also sometimes possible to simply rebuild against Qt6
    with no changes but not always.

    When I updated to KDE 6 , I reluctantly had to drop Krusader,
    but this thread prompted me to check its current status
    & version 2.9.0 for KDE 6 is available in Testing.
    I've installed it successfully & am looking forward to using it regularly.

    What seems to be needed is a list of packages
    which are (1) really important to some users
    & (2) show no signs of being updated to KDE 6 in the foreseeable future.
    Then some lobbying cb done to get that special problem solved.

    --
    ========================,,============================================
    SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
    ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
    TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatcadotinterdotnet

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  • From Andreas Sturmlechner@21:1/5 to Webb on Thu Jan 2 20:05:29 2025
    On Donnerstag, 2. Januar 2025 20:03:29 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit Philip Webb wrote:
    When I updated to KDE 6 , I reluctantly had to drop Krusader

    When you updated to *Plasma 6*, nothing forced you to do that at all. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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  • From Eli Schwartz@21:1/5 to Andrey Grozin on Thu Jan 2 20:50:01 2025
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------wd60HgffPvBvopX0bcXc1b9b
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On 1/2/25 1:36 AM, Andrey Grozin wrote:
    Here are some packages installed on my computer and (to various degrees) important for me which depend on Qt5

    1. x11-wm/lumina
    An excellent desktop environment. I use it for many years.
    I contacted the upstream about the possibility to port it to Qt6. They
    said that before that they have to port it from qmake to cmake (work underway), then they will consider the possibility of the Qt6 port.

    2. media-sound/qmmp
    An excellent misic player. The site says there is qmmp2 based on Qt6,
    but I don't see in in Gentoo.


    Indeed, that is why if you visit https://packages.gentoo.org and search
    for this package, there is a big infobox:

    " Version 2.2.2 is available upstream. Please consider updating!"

    So... do that? I bet the sound@ project would love your help here.


    3. media-video/vlc
    An excellent video played. Its GUI is Qt5 based.


    Supports Qt 6 in upstream git, not yet enabled in live ebuild. I bet the media-video@ project would love your help here.


    4. app-text/master-pdf-editor
    The only tool for editing pdf files. I have to use it every time I check
    and correct proofs of my papers, i.e., rather often. There is no
    replacement.


    Proprietary software that ships with a bundled Qt5. There is a strong
    rationale for debundling if possible, but in the event that Qt5 is
    dropped from ::gentoo you can always respond to that action by switching
    to the bundled Qt.

    You are not beholden to the qt@ team's support policy here.


    5. sci-visualization/gle
    A very useful tool, its gui is Qt5 based. I use it practically every
    day, it is essential for my main work. But I use the command-line tool; personally for me, GUI is not important.


    Porting is rumored to be not hard. Try poking upstream about it: https://github.com/vlabella/GLE/issues/13


    6. app-text/doxygen
    GUI is Qt5 based. Personally I don't use the GUI.


    Supports Qt 6 since 2022, not enabled in the ebuild. I trust that you
    will agree with my analysis if I say that packages such as doxygen are ***the*** reason why Andreas is sending out email warnings asking for
    people to migrate immediately.


    7. sci-geosciences/qmapshack
    The best tool to support large collections of gpx tracks. There is a partially working Qt6 port: translations and the help system are broken
    in it. Personally I can live without translations and the help system.
    But stabilizing this version is out of question.

    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my
    computer. In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number
    of useful programs have been created; not all of them have been ported
    to Qt6. Are we going to throw away all this wealth?


    Obviously nobody is proposing to throw away this wealth. For example,
    the qt@ team will continue to maintain Qt 6, but you can take over
    maintenance of Qt 5 for the sake of existing useful programs, and given
    that the Qt 5 packages will then have a maintainer, there is no reason
    to delete them.

    But assuming neither you nor anyone else concerned about Qt5 volunteers
    to personally maintain it, I don't comprehend what your objection is.

    Andreas has explicitly, loudly, expressed an unwillingness to continue
    devoting time and energy on Qt 5. Correspondingly, he has:

    - issued a warning to that effect

    - advised doing whatever you can to see packages start using Qt 6

    - pointed out several potential reasons that may make Qt 5 fail to
    compile over the next year or so


    What you do with that information is entirely up to you, but objecting
    that Andreas is not permitted to determine the best use of his time is
    not a valid option. Andreas will not maintain Qt 5 due to personal
    choice, and the Treecleaner project will remove packages that are unable
    to be compiled and installed if nobody fixes them.

    Do not blame Andreas for the actions of the Treecleaner project.


    This is all especially weird since *most* of the packages you mention
    are examples of why this email was necessary and the packages in
    ::gentoo do need fixing or updating to enable the existing support for
    Qt 6. And *all but one* of the packages have upstreams that are active
    and interested in supporting Qt 6 if they don't already, with the
    exception of the single proprietary package that ships its own Qt for
    your convenience.


    I do not see why you are sending a worried reply indicating you think
    the situation is hopeless. Based on your list, the situation is the very opposite of hopeless. And your list is just a bunch of action points
    that you, yourself, can work on *today* in order to make things better.

    Why all the doom and gloom?


    --
    Eli Schwartz

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  • From Sam James@21:1/5 to Zoltan Puskas on Thu Jan 2 21:00:02 2025
    Zoltan Puskas <zoltan@sinustrom.info> writes:


    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer. >> In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful
    programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we >> going to throw away all this wealth?


    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items that are
    likely used by a lot of users and killing all these apps is going to be painful.

    Is there a timeline for killing QT5 completely or will just QT5 be stuck at the
    current version and patch level?

    I understand that QT5 is considered deprecated, but doesn't KDE project still maintain QT 5.15 for the time being? Can't we just keep that version?

    Even if we report bugs upstream, it may take time to port all these projects, especially the larger ones or if they are a single person project.

    We best get started now then, which is the purpose of Andreas'
    email. This is the warning to start filing those bugs and asking
    upstreams to port if not done already. Not that we're going to last-rite
    such packages tomorrow.

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  • From Sam James@21:1/5 to Andrey Grozin on Thu Jan 2 21:00:01 2025
    Andrey Grozin <grozin@gentoo.org> writes:

    Here are some packages installed on my computer and (to various
    degrees) important for me which depend on Qt5


    I'll note again that at the moment, we're talking about "things which
    support Qt 6, but the ebuild doesn't even acknowledge that right now, or
    the ebuild still unnecessarily supports Qt 5."

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  • From Ionen Wolkens@21:1/5 to Sam James on Fri Jan 3 03:40:01 2025
    On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 07:56:03PM +0000, Sam James wrote:
    Zoltan Puskas <zoltan@sinustrom.info> writes:


    So, removing Qt5 will break computers of many users, including my computer.
    In the course of many years of existence of Qt5 a large number of useful >> programs have been created; not all of them have been ported to Qt6. Are we
    going to throw away all this wealth?


    I have to agree with Andrey here, the list contains quite a few items that are
    likely used by a lot of users and killing all these apps is going to be painful.

    Is there a timeline for killing QT5 completely or will just QT5 be stuck at the
    current version and patch level?

    I understand that QT5 is considered deprecated, but doesn't KDE project still
    maintain QT 5.15 for the time being? Can't we just keep that version?

    Even if we report bugs upstream, it may take time to port all these projects,
    especially the larger ones or if they are a single person project.

    We best get started now then, which is the purpose of Andreas'
    email. This is the warning to start filing those bugs and asking
    upstreams to port if not done already. Not that we're going to last-rite
    such packages tomorrow.

    Right, albeit can add that anything depending on qtwebengine:5 should
    hurry more than the rest. As asturm already noted it's going to break
    faster than the rest and nobody really wants to handle keeping that one working. Most users also don't want two qtwebengine on their systems.

    Qt5 base packages aren't the biggest worry even if we leave them
    semi-abandoned (not that qtcore isn't pretty quirky and already with a
    lot of small issues that will likely get worse), albeit it'd be nice to
    get to a few other Qt modules out of the equation as packages ideally get aggressively ported.
    --
    ionen

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  • From Andreas Sturmlechner@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 3 14:41:55 2025
    On Freitag, 3. Jänner 2025 03:38:16 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit Ionen Wolkens
    wrote:
    Qt5 base packages aren't the biggest worry even if we leave them semi-abandoned (not that qtcore isn't pretty quirky and already with a
    lot of small issues that will likely get worse), albeit it'd be nice to
    get to a few other Qt modules out of the equation as packages ideally get aggressively ported.

    Already existing trackers are:

    https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=qtscript-removal
    https://qa-reports.gentoo.org/output/genrdeps/rindex/dev-qt/qtscript

    https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=qtwebengine5-removal

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