• Xpra

    From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 24 23:10:01 2025
    Hi.

    I understand Trixie is frozen and that means in particular that packages
    in sid but uninstallable and not in Trixie will not be in the release.

    That include Xpra, a X11 server proxy where you do:

    xpra --start-child=firefox --exit-with-children start ssh:ssecem:15

    and you get firefox running on the remote host and displaying on the
    local server, just like forwarded X11 / ssh -X, except it is responsive
    even over laggy ADSL links and you can detach the window from the local
    display and reattach it to another. It can also shadow an existing X11
    server on a remote host locally in a window, still responsive.

    I am rather fond of Xpra. Before considering installing it from sources,
    I wanted to ask:

    Do anybody know another tool with the same features, still packages for
    Trixie?

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Michael Stone@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Thu Apr 24 23:30:02 2025
    On Thu, Apr 24, 2025 at 11:05:41PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
    I understand Trixie is frozen and that means in particular that packages
    in sid but uninstallable and not in Trixie will not be in the release.

    That include Xpra, a X11 server proxy where you do:

    yes, xpra has been in bad shape for a while, but nobody seemed to care
    enough to fix it

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  • From Antonio Russo@21:1/5 to Michael Stone on Fri Apr 25 02:40:01 2025
    On 2025-04-24 15:27, Michael Stone wrote:
    yes, xpra has been in bad shape for a while, but nobody seemed to care enough to fix it

    No quite! Anyone can check out my PR [1] that gets it working with 6.0.

    I stopped tracking upstream for my own personal builds of Xpra a few months ago (admittedly, I stopped pushing those updates to the MR long before that because of
    lack of apparent interest). If people actually care about it, I can refresh the MR
    to the latest release. Most of the time, the updates to get it working with the
    next version are quite simple.

    I will have to warn anyone looking at it though: I stopped used Xpra because I'm
    trying to move over to wayland, and the primary reason I used it was to "shadow"
    existing desktops to provide "remote desktop" service calls to less technical users
    needing help. Xpra doesn't (or at least did not) have a roadmap for that feature,
    so I'm looking at krfb to that end. Given how easy the packaging is to maintain now, I don't think that should stop anyone from giving it a go.

    Antonio


    [1] https://salsa.debian.org/debian/xpra/-/merge_requests/5

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  • From Hanno 'Rince' Wagner@21:1/5 to Antonio Russo on Fri Apr 25 09:50:01 2025
    Hi everybody,

    On Thu, 24 Apr 2025, Antonio Russo wrote:

    I stopped tracking upstream for my own personal builds of Xpra a few months ago
    (admittedly, I stopped pushing those updates to the MR long before that because of
    lack of apparent interest).

    I can say for myself that I like Xpra, especially since it works
    independent from the window manager.

    I will have to warn anyone looking at it though: I stopped used Xpra because I'm
    trying to move over to wayland, and the primary reason I used it was to "shadow"
    existing desktops to provide "remote desktop" service calls to less technical users
    needing help. Xpra doesn't (or at least did not) have a roadmap for that feature,
    so I'm looking at krfb to that end. Given how easy the packaging is to maintain
    now, I don't think that should stop anyone from giving it a go.

    If it is only packaging, I think we find someone who can do it. But
    since I am no developer, I can not change the sourcecode ;)
    as far as I can see, krfb is mainly KDE driven, that wouldn't help me
    much. THerefore, another task on my todo-list...

    best regards, Hanno Wagner
    --
    | Hanno Wagner | Member of the HTML Writers Guild | Rince@IRC |
    | Eine gewerbliche Nutzung meiner Email-Adressen ist nicht gestattet! |
    | 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19 - we did it! | Generation @ |
    #"du hast doch hoffentlich nichts dagegen, wenn ich mir deine klammern
    # ausborge. ich habe naemlich meinen emacs heute noch nicht gefuettert."
    # -- eroesche@informatik.uni-ulm.de (Eckehart Roescheisen)

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 25 15:50:01 2025
    Frank Guthausen (HE12025-04-25):
    Maybe it is overkill for what you want, but you can use x2go to
    have this kind of remote ressource usage for an entire desktop.

    Thanks. But a full desktop is definitely what I do not want. This is the
    great thing about Xpra: like good old remote X11, but fast and
    detachable.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Frank Guthausen@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Fri Apr 25 15:20:01 2025
    On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 23:05:41 +0200
    Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:

    That include Xpra, a X11 server proxy where you do:

    xpra --start-child=firefox --exit-with-children start ssh:ssecem:15

    a[...]

    Do anybody know another tool with the same features, still packages
    for Trixie?

    Maybe it is overkill for what you want, but you can use x2go to
    have this kind of remote ressource usage for an entire desktop.
    --
    kind regards
    Frank

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 25 16:40:01 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-25):
    Exactly. A whole new Linux distro can be made following your approach. The distro that I have had in mind since ages. A Linux distro that acts as a
    main box with a lot of little boxes inside. Each one is a vm with a
    different OS (FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD and so on). And Xpra installed on each virtual machine / distro. And in the main distro,using Xpra you can call
    all the different commands and applications that belong to each distro. Something like this :

    You do not need Xpra for that: normal X11 over TCP on the network of the
    VM is enough.

    Xpra would bring you the ability to detach apps on a per-VM basis, from
    the real display, but compared to just hiding the windows it only saves
    a small handful of resources on the display, and costs more resources on
    the VM themselves.

    On the other hand, Xpra is nowhere as transparent as plain X11, it is
    added on top of a virtual X11 server and optimised for low-bandwidth and high-latency and uses bitmaps and video codecs to speed up the display.
    On something high-bandwidth low-latency like between host and VM, you
    just get the drawbacks of having a virtual X11 server sending bitmaps of
    its windows.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Dan Ritter@21:1/5 to Mario Marietto on Fri Apr 25 16:40:01 2025
    Mario Marietto wrote:
    Thanks. But a full desktop is definitely what I do not want. This is the great thing about Xpra: like the good old remote X11, but fast and detachable.

    Exactly. A whole new Linux distro can be made following your approach. The distro that I have had in mind since ages. A Linux distro that acts as a
    main box with a lot of little boxes inside. Each one is a vm with a
    different OS (FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD and so on). And Xpra installed on each virtual machine / distro. And in the main distro,using Xpra you can call
    all the different commands and applications that belong to each distro.


    This is Qubes:

    https://www.qubes-os.org/



    Qubes OS is a free and open-source, security-oriented operating system for single-user desktop computing. Qubes OS leverages Xen-based virtualization to allow for the creation and management of isolated compartments called qubes.

    These qubes, which are implemented as virtual machines (VMs), have specific:

    Purposes: with a predefined set of one or many isolated applications, for personal or professional projects, to manage the network stack, the firewall, or to fulfill other user-defined purposes.
    Natures: full-fledged or stripped-down virtual machines based on popular operating systems, such as Fedora, Debian, and Windows.
    Levels of trust: from complete to non-existent. All windows are displayed in a unified desktop environment with unforgeable colored window borders so that different security levels are easily identifiable.


    -dsr-

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  • From Anssi Saari@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Sun Apr 27 08:30:01 2025
    Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> writes:

    Frank Guthausen (HE12025-04-25):
    Maybe it is overkill for what you want, but you can use x2go to
    have this kind of remote ressource usage for an entire desktop.

    Thanks. But a full desktop is definitely what I do not want. This is the great thing about Xpra: like good old remote X11, but fast and
    detachable.

    x2go isn't limited to full desktop, one can set it up to run one app or
    what it calls "published apps" which basically means those remote gui
    apps with .desktop files. I haven't used it much recently though.

    Otherwise though, I've never found it to be fast, it always likes to
    take its time connecting, even on a lan. Worked OK when it got going
    though. Keyboard handling was weirdly buggy. As I recall, it ignored
    anything xmodmapped when first connecting but after reattaching things
    worked.

    Reliability too was a problem, especially with reattaching, at some
    point it was very much hit-or-miss and mostly miss. Couldn't reattach or
    x2go said it did but no window appeared.

    As for xpra, I've tried it some years ago but I didn't find
    documentation beyond "this is how to start a remote program." As I
    recall, I was unable to figure out anything beyond that, like how to
    detach, how to reattach.

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 28 10:10:02 2025
    Hi.

    Anssi Saari (HE12025-04-27):
    x2go isn't limited to full desktop, one can set it up to run one app or
    what it calls "published apps" which basically means those remote gui
    apps with .desktop files. I haven't used it much recently though.

    I am confused by your statement. My qualm about x2go running a full
    desktop is to contrast with the ability of Xpra to send individual
    windows. I do not care for .desktop files, I always run things from the
    command line.

    What do you call “one app”? This is not a phone with only one single app
    in full screen at any time. If I run firefox through x2go for example,
    will I get (1) one big window with the firefox window in it, and if
    firefox opens a save dialog it will be inside the big window, or (2) a
    window for firefox, integrated with my local wm, and the save dialog
    ditto?

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 28 11:00:01 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-28):
    What about wayland ?

    This ugly nightmare breaks window managers that were not re-written from scratch for it.

    The only way I will be using Wayland would be if/when real X.org drivers
    no longer support my GPU, and it will be with XWayland in root-full
    full-screen mode, and that would require changing the way I have been
    doing things with regard to hot-plugged screens.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to when I on Mon Apr 28 11:40:01 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-28):
    whats the advantage of using xpra over this command : ssh mark "DISPLAY=:0 nohup firefox"

    The ones I mentioned in the very first mail of this thread:

    local server, just like forwarded X11 / ssh -X, except it is responsive >>>> even over laggy ADSL links and you can detach the window from the local >>>> display and reattach it to another.

    And once again, partially, when I replied to one of your own suggestions:

    Xpra would bring you the ability to detach apps on a per-VM basis

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 28 12:00:02 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-28):
    Usually I check after that someone gave me some general idea.

    Then I suggest you apply the same rule even more strictly to saying.

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 28 11:50:01 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-28):
    I think i can detach an application with ssh and a proper parameter.

    Checking is better than thinking without checking.

    Be sure to tell us the results of your experiments.

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Anssi Saari@21:1/5 to Mario Marietto on Mon Apr 28 13:10:01 2025
    Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> writes:

    This seems to be an interesting alternative to compare to xpra also because it works even on FreeBSD (the OS that I use
    everyday) :

    https://winswitch.org/dev/

    It says in the FAQ it actually bundles xpra, NX and VNC. NX is what x2go
    uses. So not an alternative, more of a bundle. Might be a handy thing for experimentation and setting things up.

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 28 13:20:01 2025
    Mario Marietto (HE12025-04-28):
    This seems to be an interesting alternative to compare to xpra also because it works even on FreeBSD (the OS that I use everyday) :

    https://winswitch.org/dev/

    Please tell us if you find it useful once you have tested it throughly.

    --
    Nicolas George

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